Christ's Christianity and Paul's Christianity are Not the Same

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Axehead

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Stan said:
Not everything that we are taught by the Holy Spirit may be IN the Bible but the truth of that teaching IS.

Agreed. When Catholics call this call this Sacred Tradition, they are falsely accused of adding to the Bible, but when you say it, it means the Holy Spirit infallibly teaches "ME".


I agree that there are no contradictions in the Bible, but you haven't defined who "us" is. What you really mean is, "the Holy Spirit teaches ME". You are an authority unto yourself.

There are many prophets in the OT that said "Thus saith the Lord". (Approximately 450 times) Were they authorities unto themselves?

Do you need a man to tell you something before you will believe it?

So, why is it valid that the Lord spoke to many men DIRECTLY by His Spirit in the OT and the NT but today, you say people "are authorities unto themselves?"

Is it not because they don't hold the same interpretation as yours and you can think of no other way to invalidate their experience?

Their experience with God shows that they have no need for men to interpret for them what the Spirit of God is very capable of explaining. And they are capable of having a deep relationship with God the Father, through Jesus Christ, by the Holy Spirit outside of your religious structure.

I would say, "No", the Holy Spirit (God) is the Authority. We all have to live by our decisions and whose voice we think is God's. You think the Magisterium's voice is God, then that is fine and you have chose to live by that decision.

Axehead
 

epostle1

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The point is you cannot have mixed metaphors in any one of Jesus' teachings. It doesn't make sense. Nobody asked Jesus if He was a literal vine, and nobody asked Jesus if he was a literal door. His use of metaphors was obvious and that is why no one questioned him. But they did question Him in John 6 if He meant metaphorical, or symbolic, or figurative. He made himself quite clear.

John 6:51-52- then Jesus says that the bread He is referring to is His flesh. The Jews take Him literally and immediately question such a teaching. How can this man give us His flesh to eat?

John 6:53 - 58 - Jesus does not correct their literal interpretation. Instead, Jesus eliminates any metaphorical interpretations by swearing an oath and being even more literal about eating His flesh. In fact, Jesus says four times we must eat His flesh and drink His blood.

John 6:23-53 - however, a symbolic interpretation is not plausible. Throughout these verses, the Greek text uses the word "phago" nine times. "Phago" literally means "to eat" or "physically consume." Like the Protestants of our day, the disciples take issue with Jesus' literal usage of "eat." So Jesus does what?

John 6:54, 56, 57, 58 - He uses an even more literal verb, translated as "trogo," which means to gnaw or chew or crunch. He increases the literalness and drives his message home. Jesus will literally give us His flesh and blood to eat. The word trogo is only used two other times in the New Testament (in Matt. 24:38 and John 13:18) and it always means to literally gnaw or chew meat. While phago might also have a spiritual application, "trogo" is never used metaphorically in Greek. So Protestants cannot find one verse in Scripture where "trogo" is used symbolically, and yet this must be their argument if they are going to deny the Catholic understanding of Jesus' words. Moreover, the Jews already knew Jesus was speaking literally even before Jesus used the word trogo when they said How can this man give us His flesh to eat? (John 6:52).

John 6:55 - to clarify further, Jesus says "For My Flesh is food indeed, and My Blood is drink indeed." This phrase can only be understood as being responsive to those who do not believe that Jesus' flesh is food indeed, and His blood is drink indeed. Further, Jesus uses the word which is translated as "sarx." "Sarx" means flesh (not "soma" which means body). See, for example, John 1:13,14; 3:6; 8:15; 17:2; Matt. 16:17; 19:5; 24:22; 26:41; Mark 10:8; 13:20; 14:38; and Luke 3:6; 24:39 which provides other examples in Scripture where "sarx" means flesh. It is always literal.

John 6:55 - further, the phrases "real" food and "real" drink use the word "alethes." "Alethes" means "really" or "truly," and would only be used if there were doubts concerning the reality of Jesus' flesh and blood as being food and drink. Thus, Jesus is emphasizing the miracle of His body and blood being actual food and drink.

John 6:60 - as are many anti-Catholics today, Jesus' disciples are scandalized by these words. They even ask, "Who can 'listen' to it (much less understand it)?" To the unillumined mind, it seems grotesque.

John 6:61-63 - Jesus acknowledges their disgust. Jesus' use of the phrase "the spirit gives life" means the disciples need supernatural faith, not logic, to understand His words.

John 3:6 - Jesus often used the comparison of "spirit versus flesh" to teach about the necessity of possessing supernatural faith versus a natural understanding. In Mark 14:38 Jesus also uses the "spirit/flesh" comparison. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. We must go beyond the natural to understand the supernatural. In 1 Cor. 2:14,3:3; Rom 8:5; and Gal. 5:17, Paul also uses the "spirit/flesh" comparison to teach that unspiritual people are not receiving the gift of faith. They are still "in the flesh."

John 6:63 - Protestants often argue that Jesus' use of the phrase "the spirit gives life" shows that Jesus was only speaking symbolically. However, Protestants must explain why there is not one place in Scripture where "spirit" means "symbolic." As we have seen, the use of "spirit" relates to supernatural faith. What words are spirit and life? The words that we must eat Jesus' flesh and drink His blood, or we have no life in us.

John 6:66-67 - many disciples leave Jesus, rejecting this literal interpretation that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood. At this point, these disciples really thought Jesus had lost His mind. If they were wrong about the literal interpretation, why wouldn't Jesus, the Great Teacher, have corrected them? Why didn't Jesus say, "Hey, come back here, I was only speaking symbolically!"? Because they understood correctly.

Mark 4:34 - Jesus always explained to His disciples the real meanings of His teachings. He never would have let them go away with a false impression, most especially in regard to a question about eternal salvation.

John 6:37 - Jesus says He would not drive those away from Him. They understood Him correctly but would not believe.
John 3:5,11; Matt. 16:11-12 - here are some examples of Jesus correcting wrong impressions of His teaching. In the Eucharistic discourse, Jesus does not correct the scandalized disciples.

source
 

Stan

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The Pharisees were always literal in nature. That is why they had so many verbal laws. Again Jesus spoke in metaphor and parable ALL the time when in public. These Pharisees didn't comprehend the metaphorical use of the word's Jesus was speaking. He even said Himself in verse 63, "The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life."
If Jesus says the flesh counts for nothing, it would be contradictory for Him to literally mean His flesh was the bread of life. He even says in this verse that the words he spoke are FULL of the SPIRIT of LIFE.
Obviously many so-called disciples were feeling the same as the Pharisees. This purge was quite necessary as far as Jesus was concerned. He wanted disciples who were indeed COMMITTED.
It is interesting that those to whom Jesus did explain His parables to on a regular basis, were the ones that did NOT leave Him. In verse 34 many said to Him to always give them this bread, even though they did not understand what the bread was. When they thought it was actual flesh, which they wouldn't have if they were regular followers, they balked and took off. If Jesus ALWAYS spoke in parables/metaphors, then this text is metaphorical and cannot be taken literally. I don't know about MIXED metaphors, but I know based on the Word, that is was ALWAYS metaphor in public.
 

Xian Pugilist

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The point is you cannot have mixed metaphors in any one of Jesus' teachings.
Guess I missed your point. I didn't realize blood from a turnip was a Biblical metaphor.

It doesn't make sense. Nobody asked Jesus if He was a literal vine, and nobody asked Jesus if he was a literal door. His use of metaphors was obvious

And that is the reason they Apostles/Disciples didn't understand His message until post ascension? I'm really not fitting all this together. Nicodemus.... He found born again an obvious metaphor???? Hmmm..... I'm not with you on the premise and not sure what it has to do with refuting my original comment ribbing who you were addressing because they are hard headed?


and that is why no one questioned him. But they did question Him in John 6 if He meant metaphorical, or symbolic, or figurative. He made himself quite clear.
Dude, I'm officially lost.


None of this was to me, was it. :|
 

epostle1

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The Pharisees were always literal in nature. That is why they had so many verbal laws. Again Jesus spoke in metaphor and parable ALL the time when in public. These Pharisees didn't comprehend the metaphorical use of the word's Jesus was speaking.

Jesus taught in parables and metaphors, but to say He did that ALL the time is quite a stretch.
He spoke literally on the Law Matthew 5:17-20,
He spoke literally on anger Matthew 21:24
literally on adultery Matthew 5:27-29
oaths, retaliation, love of enemies, fasting, faith, He literally reproached unrepentant towns, the unforgivable sin, I could go on. To say that Jesus ALWAYS spoke metaphorically is just plain wrong.

He even said Himself in verse 63, "The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life."

This just proves you skimmed over my post because you dismissed the source at the expense of the content.

John 3:6 - Jesus often used the comparison of "spirit versus flesh" to teach about the necessity of possessing supernatural faith versus a natural understanding. In Mark 14:38 Jesus also uses the "spirit/flesh" comparison. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. We must go beyond the natural to understand the supernatural. In 1 Cor. 2:14,3:3; Rom 8:5; and Gal. 5:17, Paul also uses the "spirit/flesh" comparison to teach that unspiritual people are not receiving the gift of faith. They are still "in the flesh."

John 6:63 - You may argue that Jesus' use of the phrase "the spirit gives life" shows that Jesus was only speaking symbolically. However, you must explain why there is not one place in Scripture where "spirit" means "symbolic." As we have seen, the use of "spirit" relates to supernatural faith. What words are spirit and life? The words that we must eat Jesus' flesh and drink His blood, or we have no life in us.

Show me where "spirit" is metaphorical or symbolic in scripture, Stan, and I will quit being a Catholic and join your church.

If Jesus says the flesh counts for nothing, it would be contradictory for Him to literally mean His flesh was the bread of life. He even says in this verse that the words he spoke are FULL of the SPIRIT of LIFE.

That's the point, Stan. You cannot comprehend the supernatural because you have sold out to Protestant rationalism. You need supernatural faith, not logic, to understand what Jesus is saying. You are "in the flesh". What are the words He spoke that are FULL of the SPIRIT of LIFE??? We must eat Jesus' flesh and drink His blood, or we have no life in us.

Obviously many so-called disciples were feeling the same as the Pharisees. This purge was quite necessary as far as Jesus was concerned. He wanted disciples who were indeed COMMITTED.

John 6 67:68 What are the "words of eternal life" that Peter is referring to in the answer to His question?? All of Jesus' words in the New Testament, or that we must eat His Flesh, and Drink his Blood?

It is interesting that those to whom Jesus did explain His parables to on a regular basis, were the ones that did NOT leave Him. In verse 34 many said to Him to always give them this bread, even though they did not understand what the bread was. When they thought it was actual flesh, which they wouldn't have if they were regular followers, they balked and took off. If Jesus ALWAYS spoke in parables/metaphors, then this text is metaphorical and cannot be taken literally. I don't know about MIXED metaphors, but I know based on the Word, that is was ALWAYS metaphor in public.

Nonsense.

Gen. 14:18 - remember that Melchizedek's bread and wine offering foreshadowed the sacramental re-presentation of Jesus' offering.

Luke 22:19; 1 Cor. 11:24-25 - the translation of Jesus' words of consecration is "touto poieite tan eman anamnasin." Jesus literally said "offer this as my memorial sacrifice." The word poiein (do) refers to offering a sacrifice (see, e.g., Exodus 29:38-39, where God uses the same word poieseis regarding the sacrifice of the lambs on the altar). The word anamnesis (remembrance) also refers to a sacrifice which is really or actually made present in time by the power of God, as it reminds God of the actual event (see, e.g., Heb. 10:3; Num. 10:10). It is not just a memorial of a past event, but a past event made present in time.

In other words, the sacrifice is the memorial or reminder. If the Eucharist werent a sacrifice, Luke would have used the word mnemosunon (which is the word used to describe a nonsacrificial memorial. See, for example, Matt. 26:13; Mark 14:9; and especially Acts 10:4). So there are two memorials, one sacrificial (which Jesus instituted), and one non-sacrificial.

Lev. 24:7 - the word "memorial" in Hebrew in the sacrificial sense is "azkarah" which means to actually make present (see Lev. 2:2,9,16;5:12;6:5; Num.5:26 where azkarah refers to sacrifices that are currently offered and thus present in time). Jesus' instruction to offer the bread and wine (which He changed into His body and blood) as a "memorial offering" demonstrates that the offering of His body and blood is made present in time over and over again.

Num. 10:10 - in this verse, "remembrance" refers to a sacrifice, not just a symbolic memorial. So Jesus' command to offer the memorial in remembrance of Him demonstrates that the memorial offering is indeed a sacrifice currently offered. It is a re-presentation of the actual sacrifice made present in time. It is as if the curtain of history is drawn and Calvary is made present to us.

Mal. 1:10-11 - Jesus' command to his apostles to offer His memorial sacrifice of bread and wine which becomes His body and blood fulfills the prophecy that God would reject the Jewish sacrifices and receive a pure sacrifice offered in every place. This pure sacrifice of Christ is sacramentally re-presented from the rising of the sun to its setting in every place, as Malachi prophesied.
source

Satanists will steal a consecrated host from a Catholic Church, in an attempt to desecrate Jesus in their evil rituals. But they don't steal communion bread from Protestant churches. They can't be bothered with counterfeits. There are links and books from former Satanists that testify to this.
 

Xian Pugilist

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One of my gripes about my Protestant faith is the OVER emphasized Western Logic where the SUPER NATURAL has to be broken down to fit in a box the NATURAL MAN can comprehend.

Another gripe is the each individual is taught by the Spirit with no authority. While I don't trust Rome's authority and love to give you guys grief, you have a legit claim to it. The fruit of the reformation and that Spirit of God teaching everyone individually is 8.5billion denominations that disagree. According to gal 5:19.21 that's fleshly results, not the Unity of the Spirit's involvement.
 

Stan

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Jesus taught in parables and metaphors, but to say He did that ALL the time is quite a stretch.
He spoke literally on the Law Matthew 5:17-20,
He spoke literally on anger Matthew 21:24
literally on adultery Matthew 5:27-29
oaths, retaliation, love of enemies, fasting, faith, He literally reproached unrepentant towns, the unforgivable sin, I could go on. To say that Jesus ALWAYS spoke metaphorically is just plain wrong.



There are over 200 different types of figures of speech found in the Bible. Jesus used hyperbole many times. Hyperbole is exaggeration for effect. If these figures of speech are taken literally, one will misinterpret what the scriptures say. Word-for-word literal translations are FULL of phrases and sentences which have NOT been faithfully translated. Even though they may have translated each WORD faithfully and correctly, they have not conveyed the true meaning behind the phrase or sentence.
I guess Mark 4:11 (NIV) is a stretch according to you.
He spoke about His reason for His ministry in Matthew 5:17-20 (NIV) and warned just how unrighteous the scribes and Pharisees were. I wouldn't consider this spiritual teaching as He did with parables.
Matthew 21:24 has NOTHING to do with anger.
Matthew 5:27-29 again is not what I would consider teaching, but it is clarifying what the verbal law of the Pharisees and teachers SHOULD be. Notice He says; "You have heard it said"
Again I'm not saying it, Jesus is in Matthew and Mark. Maybe you have an explanation for Matthew 13:34 (NIV) and Mark 4:11 (NIV)? Maybe you think Jesus is wrong?
I guess the point is if you refuse to or can't see the proper figure of speech used in ANY scripture you're just as libel to NOT understand as the Pharisees and teachers of the law were. The key to this is having the Holy Spirit residing in you to be able to do this. Dare I ask?


This just proves you skimmed over my post because you dismissed the source at the expense of the content.


I pointed out the context and text, even though your posts are very onerous. Wish I could say the same for the contexts of your responses.



John 3:6 - Jesus often used the comparison of "spirit versus flesh" to teach about the necessity of possessing supernatural faith versus a natural understanding. In Mark 14:38 Jesus also uses the "spirit/flesh" comparison. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. We must go beyond the natural to understand the supernatural. In 1 Cor. 2:14,3:3; Rom 8:5; and Gal. 5:17, Paul also uses the "spirit/flesh" comparison to teach that unspiritual people are not receiving the gift of faith. They are still "in the flesh."
John 6:63 - You may argue that Jesus' use of the phrase "the spirit gives life" shows that Jesus was only speaking symbolically. However, you must explain why there is not one place in Scripture where "spirit" means "symbolic." As we have seen, the use of "spirit" relates to supernatural faith. What words are spirit and life? The words that we must eat Jesus' flesh and drink His blood, or we have no life in us.


Often? OK let's see 7 verses. You consider that often?


John 3:6​
What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Mark 14:38​
Stay alert and pray so that you will not come into temptation; the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.
1Cor 2:14​
The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Cor 3:3​
for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving like mere men?
Romans 8:5​
For those who live according to the flesh have set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit have set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
Gal 5:17​
For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh; for these are opposed to one another, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.

So, what exactly is the point you are trying to establish with these verses? Oh...wait...you just cut and pasted this stuff, so YOU don't really have any point to make.


Show me where "spirit" is metaphorical or symbolic in scripture, Stan, and I will quit being a Catholic and join your church.


Again you seem to be confused. Did I say or imply anywhere that spirit in scripture is metaphorical?


That's the point, Stan. You cannot comprehend the supernatural because you have sold out to Protestant rationalism. You need supernatural faith, not logic, to understand what Jesus is saying. You are "in the flesh". What are the words He spoke that are FULL of the SPIRIT of LIFE??? We must eat Jesus' flesh and drink His blood, or we have no life in us. John 6 67:68 What are the "words of eternal life" that Peter is referring to in the answer to His question?? All of Jesus' words in the New Testament, or that we must eat His Flesh, and Drink his Blood?




Well, I'm not trying to comprehend the supernatural Kepha. I am talking about SPIRITUAL things. GOD is Spirit and those that worship Him MUST worship Him in SPIRIT and in TRUTH.(John 4:24) I just need faith, nothing supernatural about it. That is found in Eph 2:8-9; For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. I don't see the word supernatural here or anywhere in the Bible. There's the problem...you looking for something that ISN'T in the Bible.


John 6 67:68 What are the "words of eternal life" that Peter is referring to in the answer to His question?? All of Jesus' words in the New Testament, or that we must eat His Flesh, and Drink his Blood?



They would be ALL the words He had spoken since He called them to be His Apostles. THEY had no problem differentiating between hyperbole and literal wording. They KNEW Him.
You have NOT provided one scripture yet that supports transubstantiation.



Nonsense.



ONLY according to you and the RCC Kepha. In my world (reality) it is truth.


Satanists will steal a consecrated host from a Catholic Church, in an attempt to desecrate Jesus in their evil rituals. But they don't steal communion bread from Protestant churches. They can't be bothered with counterfeits. There are links and books from former Satanists that testify to this.


LOL...you think that because satanists are fooled by the RCC that is makes transubstantiation a reality? I honestly have never read any satanist books, why would I. What does light have to do with darkness. I'm OK with that. The RCC can attract all the satanists it wants to if they feel it makes their dogma more valid. They are already going to hell so no worries as far as I'm concerned. Oh BTW, have any satanists exploded in fire for doing this? Did they all die? You know Paul says those that take communion unworthily die. Seems to me that would be a death sentence for ALL satanists...if it was a fact.

B)
 

Xian Pugilist

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My holy spirit says your holy spirit is a fraud. And my holy spirit says you are too narcissistic to question your holy spirit to figure it out.....

Now, I am not calling you out in my make believe conversation up there.... but that's a fair representation of your appeal to authorities short comings.
 

epostle1

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A converted satanist is extremely rare. The charge that I am appealing to authorities shortcomings is just a sadistic brainless insult. You disappoint me Pug. Satanism exists and ex-satanists (who convert to Catholicism, a fact you don't like) have something of interest to say about the Eucharist (that you don't like).

Premise 1 Satanism exists
Premise 2 Satan hates the Eucharist

Evidence:
Host desecration http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Host_desecration

Vatican official says rediscovery of Eucharist needed to counter satanic sacrilege

Most Satanists Know and [color="ff0000"]Bonafide Witches[/color] Can Discern a
Consecrated Host among thousands of unconsecrated hosts


SATANISM BLACK MASS religion-cults.com link is too repugnant to post, it is not a Catholic web site).

[background=rgb(255, 255, 204)]Satanists are stealing consecrated Hosts...[/background]
Sex is Sacred

Exorcisms On the Rise

Movie Review: The Rite

SPIRITUAL WARFARE: THE OCCULT HAS DEMONIC INFLUENCE Bishop Donald W. Montrose
Do not concentrate on the Evil Spirits, but fix your eyes and your faith upon Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We are saved by Jesus Christ alone, through prayer, our adherence to the Word of God in the Bible, and through the sacraments, especially through the presence of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist.

The Eucharist the Real Substantial Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity

Your rationalist Protestant mind will demand no less than empirical evidence for a matter of faith, which is silly. Atheists do the same thing. Stan insists on Docetic and Gnostic worldview, what I call Evangelical Manachaeanism, a false dualism that pits matter against spirit. I'll respond to him when he is willing to engage in meaningful dialogue like a mature Christian. You, however, should know better than to tell me my "holy spirit is a fraud". It's a small step away from accusing me of casting out devils by the power of Beezulbub, and you can guess what my answer to that would be, if you know your Bible as well as I think you do.

There are two subjects the ECF wrote extensively on more than any other subject. Baptismal regeneration, and the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. But you accept none of the latter. You have Burger King theology...have it YOUR way.

You refuse the exegetical evidence found in scripture:
You refuse the evidence found in truckloads of ECF's writings, as if they didn't know anything
and
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_eucharist.html#tradition-II

Whereas your own Calvinist community can't agree on infant baptism.

If I post the most dramatic Eucharist miracles in the history of the Church, you will say it is the work of Satan. Proving the Real Presence of Jesus cannot be done by argumentation. God gives you the grace to believe it, you just have to submit to His will on the matter. You just haven't been called yet. Maybe you never will. But if He calls you with that small, still Voice, don't shake your fist at Him and tell him he is a fraud.
 

Xian Pugilist

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A converted satanist is extremely rare. The charge that I am appealing to authorities shortcomings is just a sadistic brainless insult. You disappoint me Pug. Satanism exists and ex-satanists (who convert to Catholicism, a fact you don't like) have something of interest to say about the Eucharist (that you don't like).

What??? where did this come from? I've talked with Satanists, former satanists, crowley followers, been to Beltane and samhain ceremonies with friends, you have totally lost me. We have a disconnect somewhere and I am lost. I made the comment about people claiming "I have the spirit" and such, as an appeal to authority which it often turns out to be; sometimes inadvertently...

Do you refer to satanic bible followers? They don't believe in Satan.
Anton Lavey followers?
Are they luciferian,
Theistic satanists,
blah blah blah, they are all different, they all have a different psyche, they all have different people, they often make fun of each other as frauds as well.

If you want to work at converting satanists it goes something like this...They are seeking to be a stronger person somehow. Since they chose satanism they have a beef with the Church. Figure that out. Somehow the Church or someone in it has threatened them in some way. It could be traumatic, it could be a strong parent figure throwing God's name behind them all the time, it could just be how they perceive the Church and it's attacks on abortion clinics or gays or whatever, but SOMETHING has them rebelling against the Church claiming power. They go to Satanism because it is giving them (allegedly) some power to tap into, use and manipulate. You have to remove their need for the power. That's hard to do the way the Church flaunts itself trying to dictate how everyone lives.

Now tell me what the rest of this is all about, please?

Premise 1 Satanism exists
Premise 2 Satan hates the Eucharist

Evidence:
Host desecration http://en.wikipedia....ost_desecration

Vatican official says rediscovery of Eucharist needed to counter satanic sacrilege

Most Satanists Know and Bonafide Witches Can Discern a
Consecrated Host among thousands of unconsecrated hosts


SATANISM BLACK MASS religion-cults.com link is too repugnant to post, it is not a Catholic web site).

[background=rgb(255, 255, 204)]Satanists are stealing consecrated Hosts...[/background]
Sex is Sacred

Exorcisms On the Rise

Movie Review: The Rite

SPIRITUAL WARFARE: THE OCCULT HAS DEMONIC INFLUENCE Bishop Donald W. Montrose
Do not concentrate on the Evil Spirits, but fix your eyes and your faith upon Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We are saved by Jesus Christ alone, through prayer, our adherence to the Word of God in the Bible, and through the sacraments, especially through the presence of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist.

The Eucharist the Real Substantial Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity

Your rationalist Protestant mind will demand no less than empirical evidence for a matter of faith, which is silly. Atheists do the same thing. Stan insists on Docetic and Gnostic worldview, what I call Evangelical Manachaeanism, a false dualism that pits matter against spirit. I'll respond to him when he is willing to engage in meaningful dialogue like a mature Christian. You, however, should know better than to tell me my "holy spirit is a fraud". It's a small step away from accusing me of casting out devils by the power of Beezulbub, and you can guess what my answer to that would be, if you know your Bible as well as I think you do.

There are two subjects the ECF wrote extensively on more than any other subject. Baptismal regeneration, and the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. But you accept none of the latter. You have Burger King theology...have it YOUR way.

You refuse the exegetical evidence found in scripture:
You refuse the evidence found in truckloads of ECF's writings, as if they didn't know anything
and
http://www.scripture...ml#tradition-II

Whereas your own Calvinist community can't agree on infant baptism.

If I post the most dramatic Eucharist miracles in the history of the Church, you will say it is the work of Satan. Proving the Real Presence of Jesus cannot be done by argumentation. God gives you the grace to believe it, you just have to submit to His will on the matter. You just haven't been called yet. Maybe you never will. But if He calls you with that small, still Voice, don't shake your fist at Him and tell him he is a fraud.
 

epostle1

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I was simply providing evidence for my previous statement that Satanists will desecrate a consecrated hosts stolen from a Catholic church, previous to that I was giving ample proof text supporting the Real Presence, and you responded with is:

My holy spirit says your holy spirit is a fraud. And my holy spirit says you are too narcissistic to question your holy spirit to figure it out.....

Now, I am not calling you out in my make believe conversation up there.... but that's a fair representation of your appeal to authorities short comings.
You have no authority to call anyone's Holy Spirit a fraud, and you called me a narcissist without any provocation on my part. Such drivel is beneath your dignity as a Christian.
 

Xian Pugilist

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I was simply providing evidence for my previous statement that Satanists will desecrate a consecrated hosts stolen from a Catholic church, previous to that I was giving ample proof text supporting the Real Presence, and you responded with is:


Yes I understood that.

You have no authority to call anyone's Holy Spirit a fraud, and you called me a narcissist without any provocation on my part. Such drivel is beneath your dignity as a Christian.

I didn't call anyone a fraud. I pointed out how people use that argument in such an ill begotten way. I made that pretty clear in the post too.

HOWEVER, there are absolute benchmarks you can see in a life that would disqualify the claim of someone saying they were indwelled by the Spirit. I wasn't making such a claim against anyone, but I will deny your position that there is no authority to do so.

Is there a reason you ignored the follow up on satanism where you accused me of denying it, etc... when I didn't?

And does that mean you 'll ignore this post where I explained I didn't judge anyone's Spirit but gave a dramatic example?

I'm starting to think you are reacting to what you expect and not what was actually said and that you won't take anything back.
 

epostle1

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  1. [/color]

    Yes I understood that.

    I didn't call anyone a fraud. I pointed out how people use that argument in such an ill begotten way. I made that pretty clear in the post too.

    you addressed me with
    My holy spirit says your holy spirit is a fraud. And my holy spirit says you are too narcissistic to question your holy spirit to figure it out.....


let it go...


HOWEVER, there are absolute benchmarks you can see in a life that would disqualify the claim of someone saying they were indwelled by the Spirit.

The absolute benchmarks are the fruits of the spirit. One of them is humility. If you bear this fruit, you don't go around bragging about how you "indwelt" you think you are, and you don't stomp all over ones beliefs. Humble indwelt Christians try to be sensitive to the others feelings, whether they speak in tongues or not. The arrogance of some "indwelt" Christians in here is appauling, and I think you would agree with me.

I wasn't making such a claim against anyone, but I will deny your position that there is no authority to do so.

I never said there is no authority. Authority is passed from the top down, not sideways as it is in Protestantism.

Deny all you want. You can judge a person according to Our Lords instructions, but no one has the authority to judge the state of a persons soul, not you, not me, not your pastor, and not the Pope.

  • Is there a reason you ignored the follow up on satanism where you accused me of denying it, etc... when I didn't?
I didn't accuse you of denying satanism. I made the claim that Satanists will steal Catholic communion hosts but not Protestant ones. that is because Jesus is truly present. They know it...you don't. Then I gave the evidence of my premise. I didn't post a conclusion. That is between you and God, not me.


Matthew 26:26-28




 

Xian Pugilist

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let it go...

NO I won't let it go. You want to cut out the context of what was said so you can have some gripe about my character. You say something that if someone reads it and doesn't scroll back presents a LIE as to what I said. And you don't want to say, OOOPS and back off of your words? How flippin dishonest is that. Right after the example I gave you, that you quoted above.... I said.............................
Now, I am not calling you out in my make believe conversation up there.... but that's a fair representation of your appeal to authorities short comings.

You guys are going hell bent outta your way to try to redefine my character.

What do I do that scares you so much. That's patently dishonest Kepha. You have become what you wish to stop. Be proud.




The absolute benchmarks are the fruits of the spirit. One of them is humility. If you bear this fruit, you don't go around bragging about how you "indwelt" you think you are, and you don't stomp all over ones beliefs.


One of the PRIME points of humility is admitting when you are wrong. Be humble. Stop lying. The fruits of the Spirit are not the ABSOLUTE BENCHMARKS, but they ARE part of them. You have gal 5:16 and rom 8:9 as well. If you want to quote gal 5 on fruits of the spirit, might as well throw in all the dissension and factions that are of the flesh not the Spirit then look at the fruit of the faith and how fragmented it is.

Well who the heck is bragging about how indwelt they are? I"m on record saying I'm not yet there. You wanna try to paint another LYING falsehood that it's me saying I am and you aren't? I"m yet to "stomp" on someone's beliefs. IF you think having your arguments challenged is stomping on your beliefs, you have no place to be in public discourse.

What is your problem Kepha. Why all the dishonesty?


Humble indwelt Christians try to be sensitive to the others feelings, whether they speak in tongues or not. The arrogance of some "indwelt" Christians in here is appauling, and I think you would agree with me.


Sensitive, does that include lying about what they have said or claimed, then when shown you were wrong, rather than APOLOGIZE you try to RAM the lie into reality? Real flippin sensitive. You disgust me.

I never said there is no authority. Authority is passed from the top down, not sideways as it is in Protestantism.


Changing the context. Real nice. The "authority" I brought up is that you say we aren't to judge others? The Bible says exactly the opposite, IN CONTEXT. There is a time a place and a way. When you LIE about what I said, you judged me, and judged me falsely. When you refuse to accept your error and apoligize I'm to judge you and take it to you to discuss. Matt 18. That's my right to judge you. Paul said it's out job to keep those in the Church in line, NOT judge those outside the Church. I'm well within my rights. YOU are the arrogant one, too stubborn to just admit, "I misread and you didn't say what I thought you said". Then your lie turns into an error and you corrected the error.

Deny all you want. You can judge a person according to Our Lords instructions, but no one has the authority to judge the state of a persons soul, not you, not me, not your pastor, and not the Pope.


I haven't judged a person's soul. That's you emotions crying out, not anything I said. BUT if I HAD JUDGED YOU AS not having the Spirit of God in you, that still isn't judging your soul. It would be judging your fruits.

I didn't accuse you of denying satanism. I made the claim that Satanists will steal Catholic communion hosts but not Protestant ones. that is because Jesus is truly present. They know it...you don't. Then I gave the evidence of my premise. I didn't post a conclusion. That is between you and God, not me.


Now I have to go check my work and see if I misread. But, at least I'll man up and do it.

Matthew 26:26-28




I have no clue what you are saying with the communion post.

Ok,

I made a comment about Melchizedek.
You said I was only part right because Mel was a jew.
I explained there were no jews or gentiles yet so Mel couldn't have been a jew.

You showed no graciousness to give us an OOOPS.

I made an ASIDE about over things I said about the Protestant positions I don't like.

We also had the mixed metaphor conversation. I showed you I didn't use mixed biblical metaphors, you ignored that and carried on, so I answered your "carry on" in detail, but you showed no grace on that one either.


Then you came at me with disappointed in me for something I didn't say about satanism?
You lost me there too.

Then you cry foul because I use a quote from an imaginary person, addressing stan, on how he presented the Spirit. I think it was Stan that prompted the comment, I'd have to read that one slower, anyway I made the statement as if I were the people who make that claim they have the Spirit. It's a continuation from the ASIDE I mentioned above

YOu have sense tried to claim I accused you of something that wasn't addressed to you, didn't pertain to you, was a comment against protestants, and you won't say you misread it?

You are worthless.
 

Rach1370

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If I could perhaps step in? Kepha, I read back and Xian is correct, he was not addressing that comment to you, and he did state below it that it was a 'make believe conversation'. You kind of owe him an apology...
Xian, sometimes just throwing a comment out there without any direct quote from someone in your post, does make it a little ambiguous as to who the comment if for! Even if you don't want to include a whole post, just a "stan you said..." or a "hey stan..." can help!
 

Stan

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If I could perhaps step in? Kepha, I read back and Xian is correct, he was not addressing that comment to you, and he did state below it that it was a 'make believe conversation'. You kind of owe him an apology...
Xian, sometimes just throwing a comment out there without any direct quote from someone in your post, does make it a little ambiguous as to who the comment if for! Even if you don't want to include a whole post, just a "stan you said..." or a "hey stan..." can help!

Nah Rachel, it wouldn't have helped in the scenario you gave. I don't see his posts. -_-
 

epostle1

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If I could perhaps step in? Kepha, I read back and Xian is correct, he was not addressing that comment to you, and he did state below it that it was a 'make believe conversation'. You kind of owe him an apology...
Xian, sometimes just throwing a comment out there without any direct quote from someone in your post, does make it a little ambiguous as to who the comment if for! Even if you don't want to include a whole post, just a "stan you said..." or a "hey stan..." can help!

Xian, I apologize for wrongly thinking you were addressing me.
 

Xian Pugilist

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We are fine.

Catholics take a beating in these places and when it occurs they/you get defensive and anticipate all sorts of things are threats.....

I get it. I just hope we can see it quicker next time?

Oh, and it wasn't unrealistic with what I said and how you read it. That part falls on me. But maybe we can beat that going fwd.
 

epostle1

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I think we can beat that going forward XP, provided we continuously work on transforming our own hearts.