Christ's Christianity and Paul's Christianity are Not the Same

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michaelvpardo

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Please forgive me if I offer the same argument given by some other post; I just couldn't bring myself to read all of them, but I still want to address the original premise that Jesus' Christianity and Paul's are not the same. Of course they aren't. Jesus was a Jew and a Rabbi, not a Christian. Jesus taught the Torah and the prophets from the perspective of God and in the context of His mercy and grace. Paul was the Apostle to the gentiles and only taught the law of Moses to the extent that it was necessary to define sin to a people unfamiliar with the law, but He was given the mission of preaching the gospel of grace, not to be a teacher of the law. The law had harsh punishments for sin (and still does,) but Jesus came to bring salvation from sin, not to condemn the world. The world already stands condemned by the law (because the world is fallen), and if it weren't for God's grace every man would be eternally seperated from God.
Jesus preached the gospel of the kingdom and His gospel differed from Pauls in that it was given to the Jews who were awaiting the kingdom of God and didn't understand that they needed to be redeemed; they understood themselves to be children of Abraham and inheritors of the promises of God. Some didn't even believe in a resurrection (the Saudacees) yet believed themselves as inheritors of the promises given to Abraham. Jesus certainly taught that salvation comes through belief in Him and clearly taught that obedience was evidence of knowing Him. Jesus also clearly taught His equality with God the Father. These are the same things that Paul preached, but in the light of the resurrected Christ.
It's true that Jesus kept company with those Jews that were identified as "sinners," but you always see Jesus telling sinners to repent of their sin, including those that he dined with, touched, healed of diseases, cast demons from, etc. Jesus was without sin Himself and remained seperate in nature from those that He associated with, in as much as God remains seperate from man. It wasn't until the Lord rose again from the dead that the Holy Spirit was given to indwell those that received Jesus as Lord and Savior.
The Apostle Paul preached the gospel to Jews, but His given mission was preaching to the gentiles, who had no access to God through a levitical priesthood, but were by nature seperated from the promises made to Israel. The gospel itself removes that seperation between Jew and gentile. Paul didn't teach that Christians should avoid contact with sinners, as this would require being removed from the world and would also prevent Christians from accomplishing their mission of preaching the gospel to and making disciples of all men.
Paul also understood that our sanctification is through the grace of God and not by the righteous works of the law. Ritual seperation of clean from unclean is meaningless in the context of grace, however Paul saw a need for church discipline, including seperation of those engaging in willful sin from fellowship, but not with the intent of condemnation, but in the hope of restoration. The goal of discipline in the context of the church has always been repentance and restoration. The ministry of the gospel is a ministry of reconciliation, first to God and then between men.
When I was first saved and began to understand the scripture, I was also troubled by Paul's writings, in that he sometimes struck me as being proud, self righteous, and arrogant. In retrospect, I believe that much of my trouble with Paul is what I saw of myself in his written expression. Paul was a Pharisee of the Pharisees and until I understood the extent of the self righteousness of the Pharisees, I was unable to understand Paul and I was unable to understand myself. Paul met the risen Lord on the road to Damascus and on his way with papers authorizing the arrest of members of the Christian sect. He had a great zeal for God, but one born of ignorance, not understanding God's grace until he experienced it himself.
The Pharisees, desiring to be righteous and demonstrate their righteousness to all, created rules and regulations of their own by the hundreds. They had the problem that if they were honest with themselves they knew that they couldn't satisfy the righteous requirements of the law, so they picked out things which they could do in their carnal nature which gave the appearance of satisfying the law. For example, the law instructs that a person shouldn't boil a kid (of the goats) in it's mothers milk, and while this is a simple and easy instruction to observe, the Pharisees expanded this with additional easy to keep rules, such as not allowing dairy products to come in contact with meat. Modern Jewish orthodoxy is still based largely on such Pharasaical rules and you would notice in some grocery stores with a Jewish clientel, that the baggers have instructions to avoid even placing dairy products in the same bag as meats. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for believing themselves righteous for keeping all such practices, while ignoring the "weightier" matters of the law, such as "justice, mercy, and faith." Jesus taught those under the law that they should observe all things under the law and to obey the priests as they sat in the seat of Moses. Paul was preaching to those who were without law, but the same message of Grace. However, Paul certainly was raised in the context of Pharaseeism and was a sinful man inspite of his self imposed righteousness (prior to abandoning his own righteousness in the light of God's grace.)
When we are saved by faith in Christ and receive Him as Lord and Savior, our spirits, formerly dead in transgression and sin, are made alive again by His Spirit. We receive a new "heavenly nature" in being born again, but still retain a fleshly or worldly nature according to our natural birth. Paul taught about this extensively and of the war that rages between the "flesh" and the "Spirit."
Some people tend to idolize Paul for his monumental accomplishments in establishing the gentile church and for his contribution to the body of Scripture. I believe that Paul gave a true testimony and witness and that his letters were indeed inspired by the Holy Spirit, yet the man was clearly preaching to himself as well as to the church and clearly went through a long process of sanctification through which he suffered many things for the sake of the gospel and through which he was made ever increasingly Christ like. It was Paul the aged that identified himself as the "chief of sinners," and contrary to popular thought the man wasn't made perfect on the Damascus road.
Paul preached salvation by God's grace alone. Jesus taught observance of the law, but also taught that it was impossible for men to enter the kingdom of God based upon their own righteousness. Jesus also plainly taught that salvation was in knowing God, believing Him and the One whom He sent. The expression of these truths were different between Jesus and Paul because of the context in which they were given, yet their meaning is the same.
If you want to compare the behavior of Paul and Jesus, then you need to consider that Jesus came to earth as the Son of God and with a sinless nature, while Paul was born with a fallen (sinful) nature and was the recipient of God's grace the same as anyone who would receive Jesus as Lord and Savior. You're considering men born with opposing natures. Jesus' nature remains the same and unchanging, Paul was given a new nature in opposition to the one he was born with, created by the Spirit of Christ, and given for the purpose of conforming him to the image of God, renewed in Christ. If we have received Him by faith, then it is the likeness of God, expressed in the person of Jesus Christ that we are to be conformed to. God gave us Paul as an example of an imperfect and sinful man being transformed by His grace, so that we could also follow in his example, being born of the same sinful nature, yet being renewed in the image of Christ.
Those that believe in works righteousness will always try to discredit Paul, but this is because they believe themselves already equal to God in their self righteousness, reducing the righteousness of God to that which they can achieve by their own merit. Those same will always make the claim that Jesus was teaching them that they could attain such righteousness by being careful to observe all that Jesus taught, yet Jesus was actually teaching standards which were unobtainable by men, so that we could see our need for Him and His grace. I haven't provided the scriptural texts to prove the things that I've written here. but I'll be happy to produce them if you're prepared to receive them.
 

IAmAWitness

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And the Acts says where Paul speaking to Jews, saying they had received the baptism of John, that they needed this more recent baptism. And he baptised them in the name of Jesus... it says. Here now the voices from behind the stage of United Pentecostal teachers crying for attention...

And Jesus, Yeshua in His great commission that they baptise the people "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

What do we say then to the apostles of the UPC doctrine, their error? Do we hold their baptisms to be valid? How can we when Paul's baptism, the same baptism formula of that church, is not Christ's? Paul did not baptise in these names because he was not there like the disciples were, which the Apostles in choosing a replacement for Judas agreed was a requirement for any potential successor.

Paul's name is not on the pillar of the New Jerusalem. Those whom He calls, He qualifies. Where are Paul's qualifications? He includes a long list of them in his epistles.
 
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Welcome Michael V Pardo to this on-going lengthy discussion.

I enjoyed reading the entirety of your post even though it was rather long. Relax, no one expects anyone to read all the posts in a discussion with this many sections (though some have done so). There was much in your well-written post that I agree with, such as understanding as the different audiences that Jesus and Paul addressed in their respective ministries, i.e., Jews familiar with God’s Law vs. mostly scripturally ignorant Gentiles. For brevity purposes, I will restrict my response solely to your summation.


Michael V Pardo said:
Those that believe in works righteousness will always try to discredit Paul, but this is because they believe themselves already equal to God in their self righteousness, reducing the righteousness of God to that which they can achieve by their own merit.
It is a common misconception and tactic by Pauline defenders to label all of the Apostle Paul’s critics as self-righteous legalists who believe that their own works of the Law will somehow merit salvation. (Since you haven’t read the entire thread I’ll remind you that) No one in this thread has made that fallacious claim, nor is that generally a valid accusation. The vast majority of all Christians understand that salvation is a free gift of grace based on faith in Christ’s sinless life and his atonement on Calvary.


Where we profoundly differ is that, while some Christians these days seem to misuse the grace of God to totally dismiss their obligations to the Law of God (as some out-moded vestige of the OT), many other believers are beginning to understand their relationship to the Israelite nations (both filial and spiritual) and are perceiving the eternal relevance and sense of renewed reverence for God’s Law. The gift of grace and liberty in Christ does not grant us license to dismiss the moral law codified in the Ten Commandments. Nor does the gospel of grace nullify the health benefits of adhering to the divinely instituted statutes regarding clean and unclean food or circumcision. Though our ultimate eternal destiny may not hinge on circumcision or what we choose to eat, it still remains in our best interests to follow God’s commands wherever possible.

Michael V Pardo said:
Those same will always make the claim that Jesus was teaching them that they could attain such righteousness by being careful to
observe all that Jesus taught, yet Jesus was actually teaching standards which were unobtainable by men, so that we could see our need for Him and His grace.

Yes, Christ did set very high standards for us to follow regarding God’s Law. Instead of dismissing God’s Law (as some would have us believe) Jesus regularly amplified the Law. However, this shouldn’t deter us from continuing to follow in our LORD’s footsteps as we begin to walk in the Holy Spirit and rely on His daily guidance. The root word of discipleship is discipline and there is much needed discipline to be gained in adhering to God’s perpetual Laws. God’s unmerited gift of grace and mercy is certainly present to catch us when we fall. Nevertheless, as Paul so eloquently stated:

I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Php 3:14)

Michael V Pardo said:
I haven't provided the scriptural texts to prove the things that I've written here. But I'll be happy to produce them if you're prepared to receive them.
As your prior post clearly demonstrates, the addition of scriptures isn’t always necessary to convey spiritual principles. Though in this thread, for obvious reasons, it would be appreciated if you could occasionally supply some scriptural substantiation for your positions using passages OTHER THAN from the Pauline epistles.


Peace be with you!
 

michaelvpardo

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James Forthwright said:
Welcome Michael V Pardo to this on-going lengthy discussion.

I enjoyed reading the entirety of your post even though it was rather long. Relax, no one expects anyone to read all the posts in a discussion with this many sections (though some have done so). There was much in your well-written post that I agree with, such as understanding as the different audiences that Jesus and Paul addressed in their respective ministries, i.e., Jews familiar with God’s Law vs. mostly scripturally ignorant Gentiles. For brevity purposes, I will restrict my response solely to your summation.



It is a common misconception and tactic by Pauline defenders to label all of the Apostle Paul’s critics as self-righteous legalists who believe that their own works of the Law will somehow merit salvation. (Since you haven’t read the entire thread I’ll remind you that) No one in this thread has made that fallacious claim, nor is that generally a valid accusation. The vast majority of all Christians understand that salvation is a free gift of grace based on faith in Christ’s sinless life and his atonement on Calvary.


Where we profoundly differ is that, while some Christians these days seem to misuse the grace of God to totally dismiss their obligations to the Law of God (as some out-moded vestige of the OT), many other believers are beginning to understand their relationship to the Israelite nations (both filial and spiritual) and are perceiving the eternal relevance and sense of renewed reverence for God’s Law. The gift of grace and liberty in Christ does not grant us license to dismiss the moral law codified in the Ten Commandments. Nor does the gospel of grace nullify the health benefits of adhering to the divinely instituted statutes regarding clean and unclean food or circumcision. Though our ultimate eternal destiny may not hinge on circumcision or what we choose to eat, it still remains in our best interests to follow God’s commands wherever possible.



Yes, Christ did set very high standards for us to follow regarding God’s Law. Instead of dismissing God’s Law (as some would have us believe) Jesus regularly amplified the Law. However, this shouldn’t deter us from continuing to follow in our LORD’s footsteps as we begin to walk in the Holy Spirit and rely on His daily guidance. The root word of discipleship is discipline and there is much needed discipline to be gained in adhering to God’s perpetual Laws. God’s unmerited gift of grace and mercy is certainly present to catch us when we fall. Nevertheless, as Paul so eloquently stated:

I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Php 3:14)


As your prior post clearly demonstrates, the addition of scriptures isn’t always necessary to convey spiritual principles. Though in this thread, for obvious reasons, it would be appreciated if you could occasionally supply some scriptural substantiation for your positions using passages OTHER THAN from the Pauline epistles.


Peace be with you!
Thank you for the compliment.
I don't take the position of a defender of the Apostle, but I'd read through or scanned over the 1st 5 pages of posts and saw a pattern of hostility directed at the original poster suggesting that the post and thread were an attack upon the validity of the scriptures or at least upon the validity of the New Testament. I've tried to make a point upon a number of threads and in different forums that we as Christians often have a somewhat different understanding of the meaning of certain texts, but assuming that one is correct and those that hold to another view are heretics, apostate, tools of the devil, etc.is not so much foolish as it is a sign of spiritual immaturity. Many hold the Apostle Paul in high esteem. I don't believe that he held any such illusion of greatness, but rather he appeared to give the Lord the credit for all his success. While the gospel as presented by Paul is reduced to crystalline simplicity, his apologetic is presented in depth and with multiple scriptural references betraying his own scholarly nature and an appeal to intellect and the process of reason.
The Lord Himself didn't present an apologetic for His teaching, but rather proclaimed Truth as One who declared it from the beginning, even as He who created all things.
Any time that we attempt to justify truth in the form of an apologetic we are making an appeal to reason, however reason may support faith, but is not the source of faith. Jesus said that His words are Spirit and Truth. We may say that Truth stands upon its own, yet men commonly deny the Truth as evidenced in their own existence. However, it is Spirit which gives birth to faith.
Our understanding is essentially our own personal apologetic. That is, our understanding is the means by which we justify our faith, but our faith is the product of the Spirit of God, and not of our reason alone. If our faith is based solely upon reason, then a proof of error in our reasoning can have the effect of destroying our faith. A faith built by His Spirit can be supported by our reason, but doesn't rely upon it, hence even a person of simple reason can obtain a strong faith through the hearing of the word of God. How else do you explain simple men with no leaning toward scholarly pursuit being called to the office of Apostle and endowed with great power and virtue?
I've read that Abraham Lincoln had cut the "words in red" out of one of his copies of the bible and dwelt for long periods of time on them. I don't know anything of Lincoln's biblical doctrine and suspect that it may have been fairly simple, yet he clearly was a man of strong conviction and faith. That is what the words of Christ did for him.
Now, I firmly believe that we have a responsibility to confront doctrinal error, but with grace, "speaking the truth in love." My only purpose in joining the discussion is an attempt to encourage the virtue of patience when dealing with opposing view points. We are called within the body of Christ to love one another, not to identify those who disagree with us as candidates for the flames of hell and consign them to their fate.
One of the reasons that I participate frequently in discussions in eschatological forums is that eschatology is a breeding ground for cults. There is a great deal of fear associated with the concept of the judgment upon all flesh, and the fear of death is a powerful weapon in the hands of the adversary. Cults commonly recruit members from among those who fear God but have never received the Spirit of adoption, or have genuinely believed but remain immature through lack of familiarity with the word of God. My hope is to win over those from the cults with the presentation of the gospel, and to spare those believers being deceived by those mishandling the word for their own gain. This thread is outside my preferred venue, but the topic cried out for some sound response and the pages that I'd read cried out for some grace. I suspect however, that the original poster may have already been bludgeoned out of the discussion.

I forgot to mention in my already lengthy response that many professing Christians oppose Paul's doctrine, not because he preached salvation through grace, but because he also preached sanctification through faith and by grace. This puts Paul at odds with the vast majority of the professing church:

O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Galatians 3:1-7

Paul wasn't encouraging the Galatian church to lawlessness, but was seeking to protect them from bondage to those who would lay the burdens of the law upon them. Jesus came to set us free from the law and its ordinances, but free to serve the Lord voluntarily for the sake of the love bestowed upon us and free to observe the law of liberty:
If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. James 2:8-13
 

Rex

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I not going to write several paragraphs, but I don't mind or I'm not concerned with what people choose to follow as far as eats and the Mosaic law, it's when they start insisting its necessity that I take issue. The other side of the coin is excessive liberty to the point of ignoring sound doctrine. Or the feel your way to salvation such as following things that are not found in the NT.