Paul was addressing the issue of Christians who were immoral and telling believers not to interact with them. He was not telling them to avoid unbelievers who were immoral. In the verse you quoted by Paul he says that if they were not to associate with immoral unbelievers they would have to leave the world. He expects them to associate with immoral unbelievers, but not with an believer who is immoral Jesus was associating with unbelievers who were immoral
Christ's Christianity and Paul's Christianity are Not the Same
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Paul was addressing the issue of Christians who were immoral and telling believers not to interact with them. He was not telling them to avoid unbelievers who were immoral. In the verse you quoted by Paul he says that if they were not to associate with immoral unbelievers they would have to leave the world. He expects them to associate with immoral unbelievers, but not with an believer who is immoral Jesus was associating with unbelievers who were immoral
I have no idea who invented this blithering nonsense that somehow Paul is a fake or that his teaching is different from Christ’s. It all over the internet, every where you look. It's such a load of old rope that it beggars belief. That Paul is the greatest Christian that ever lived is indisputable to my mind, he practically single handedly wrote the whole New Testament and brought Christianity to the whole world..
The only reason I can up with for this nonsense is that today's so called Christianity is so watered down and so infiltrated by Gnostic, charlatan false prophets that it has no bearing with scripture. Those who publicly decry Paul's teachings (AKA biblical Holy Writ) can now be exposed as false prophets or those sadly blinded by their teachings.
I know I will be accused of baseless Ad hominem attack here, but people who know they are right have no need to argue.
The only reason I can up with for this nonsense is that today's so called Christianity is so watered down and so infiltrated by Gnostic, charlatan false prophets that it has no bearing with scripture. Those who publicly decry Paul's teachings (AKA biblical Holy Writ) can now be exposed as false prophets or those sadly blinded by their teachings.
I know I will be accused of baseless Ad hominem attack here, but people who know they are right have no need to argue.
James Forthwright
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No one (in this thread) has denigrated the Apostle Paul. You are making straw man arguments. There are evident differences in Paul's teachings and what Christ taught especially with regards to God's Law. Paul certainly was an inspired Christian but he was not without faults and critiques even in his own time. Most of the disinformation can be dissipated with a thorough understanding of the differences between the audiences that Christ addressed and those in Paul's nascent churches.
Today's Christianity has also been diluted with a strong anti-nomianist current which denies the viability of God's Law which is largely based upon misconstrued notions largely based upon some statements in the Pauline epistles. Jesus never gave a single sermon in which forecast the dissolution of even a single eternal principle of God's Law.
There's certainly no need to resort to ad hominem attacks to defuse your scripturally tenuous position. But since your account has been disabled (for whatever reason) it's rather pointless for me to further address your arguments unless someone else is willing to speak up in your behalf.
Watchwithme is correct, this idea Paul v Jesus unbelief is a hallmark of the new liberal counterfit christianity and its all over the net.
Paul simply wrote about what it was like to be a sinner seeking Jesus..Jesus was tempted but did not struggle with sin in the manner that we do,only those with a sin nature struggle,without the sin nature sin is sent packing post haste...Paul writes about those struggles and that is why his writings are so different than those of Jesus.
Before I start, I must apologize that I could not read through the whole 5 pages up to this far...
That being noted...
I believe that when we read works in the Bible that were meant for particular groups of people, we should really take into account the atmosphere that those people resided in, so we can better understand the spirit of the instruction that was given to them. The letters Paul wrote were to particular groups of people experiencing unique problems to their geographies.
Corinth held much of Paul's attention because of it's location, and the fact that it was a melting pot of every culture in the Empire. Thus, the church didn't have one or two problems, it had every problem imaginable.
The fledgling Church in Corinth was believed to be the fastest growing Church during Paul's day. It was growing faster than the leaders there could maintain... There were several temples and shrines in Corinth, and there were several set traditions that ran counter to the teachings of the Church, yet they were not so easily done away with...
Many of the practices of Christianity were being irreverently participated in, such as Communion. People were showing up to the assemblies, and getting drunk... There were prostitutes from other temples coming to check out the new guys in town, and there was general disorganization to abound.
... The new people coming into the assemblies were not getting the message, because the noise was drowning out the music, so to speak... In order for the Church to define itself in Corinth, they needed to find a way to set themselves apart.
The Epistles to the Corinthians were instructions meant for them... It was valid instruction, and in knowing the background of the Church of Corinth, you might see the need for separation...
Yet in knowing Christ's Instructions and seeing His Witness, you see the need for outreach to those who need your testimony.
When you look at both separately, and then try to reconcile them, I think a good way you might succeed in putting them together is by realizing that Paul is instructing a group of people how to behave as a group, and Jesus is being the example of how we should act as an individual.
That being noted...
I believe that when we read works in the Bible that were meant for particular groups of people, we should really take into account the atmosphere that those people resided in, so we can better understand the spirit of the instruction that was given to them. The letters Paul wrote were to particular groups of people experiencing unique problems to their geographies.
Corinth held much of Paul's attention because of it's location, and the fact that it was a melting pot of every culture in the Empire. Thus, the church didn't have one or two problems, it had every problem imaginable.
The fledgling Church in Corinth was believed to be the fastest growing Church during Paul's day. It was growing faster than the leaders there could maintain... There were several temples and shrines in Corinth, and there were several set traditions that ran counter to the teachings of the Church, yet they were not so easily done away with...
Many of the practices of Christianity were being irreverently participated in, such as Communion. People were showing up to the assemblies, and getting drunk... There were prostitutes from other temples coming to check out the new guys in town, and there was general disorganization to abound.
... The new people coming into the assemblies were not getting the message, because the noise was drowning out the music, so to speak... In order for the Church to define itself in Corinth, they needed to find a way to set themselves apart.
The Epistles to the Corinthians were instructions meant for them... It was valid instruction, and in knowing the background of the Church of Corinth, you might see the need for separation...
Yet in knowing Christ's Instructions and seeing His Witness, you see the need for outreach to those who need your testimony.
When you look at both separately, and then try to reconcile them, I think a good way you might succeed in putting them together is by realizing that Paul is instructing a group of people how to behave as a group, and Jesus is being the example of how we should act as an individual.
One might like to reflect on why these sort of threads dont have
"The Christianity of the gosples is not the same as Christ's Christianity" on the basis that whilst Paul preached what he received from the risen Lord, Peter and John were of the 12, Luke wasn't and Mark probably wasnt, so not as reliable.
No, all that is written is affirmed by all the writers.
The gospels are very much a record of Christ's ministry, including the reaction of the disciples as they learned, Acts onwards is the record of the church released in the Spirit and the reaction of the disciples empowered.
The problem the liberals have is probably about specific condemnations of sin, notably homosexual practice.
"The Christianity of the gosples is not the same as Christ's Christianity" on the basis that whilst Paul preached what he received from the risen Lord, Peter and John were of the 12, Luke wasn't and Mark probably wasnt, so not as reliable.
No, all that is written is affirmed by all the writers.
The gospels are very much a record of Christ's ministry, including the reaction of the disciples as they learned, Acts onwards is the record of the church released in the Spirit and the reaction of the disciples empowered.
The problem the liberals have is probably about specific condemnations of sin, notably homosexual practice.
"anyone who calls himself a brother", i.e. Christian, "but is a homosexual, pedophile, greedy, an idolater, slanderer, drunkard, swindler" and those who say Paul does not have the mind of Christ.
Why is this rubbish still going on here? Why haven't the administrators closed this thread?
Apostle Paul preached the very same Gospel that all the Apostles, and our Lord Jesus Christ did. Not only that, but Apostle Paul gave many, many Old Testament examples of that same Gospel within the prophets, not only directly from what Christ showed him.
Apostle Paul preached the very same Gospel that all the Apostles, and our Lord Jesus Christ did. Not only that, but Apostle Paul gave many, many Old Testament examples of that same Gospel within the prophets, not only directly from what Christ showed him.
The Epistles are to be read in the light of the Gospels, not the other way around. The OP (opening post) is nicely answered in post #2. Jesus came for the lost sheep of the house of Isreal. It wasn't until after the Ascension did the Apostles realize that Jesus came to reedeeem the human race. The sinners and tax collectors that Jesus hung with were lost sheep, not apostates. The ones that Paul refers to are unrepentant apostates, whom we should ignore.
Yah sorry you're comparing apples and oranges. First of all Jesus came only for Israel. Second He came for those who recognized they were sick and were looking for healing or deliverance. Although the Pharisees and teachers of the law always fought Him and ridiculed Him, Jesus put up with them but also put them in their place. Paul may be more of a disciplinarian, but He did not different. Many times Jesus did not put up with what the religious sects were selling, and told them so. Paul being an ex Pharisee, he was probably just like an ex smoker. Not much patience.
The Gospel according to Paul and the gospel of Matthew, Mark and John are identical. The Gospel according to Luke differs from all the rest because it is mixed with Greek mythology.
Christ never went to anyone who did not have the faith to come to Him. Either them or a proxy on their behalf.
By divine design He came upon the woman caught in adultery situation and forgave her if she repented and sins no more.
This is why we are to Be diligent to present ourrself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
I Agree. Always what came out of the mouth of God through the eye witnesses first. Matthew, John, James, Peter, Jude.
Why? Just because you are convinced? Paul did not write his letters in light of the gospels. He wrote them in light of what was revealed to him by the Holy Spirit and with his vast knowledge of what we call the old testament.
The other epistles in the new testament are no different. The authors did not collectively have access to anything remotely what we now call the gospels.
In our case, it is more accurate to say that scripture needs to be understood in light of scripture.
That said, we can observe time frames through history and throughout the bible. For example, we do not have animal sacrifices in our lifetime. But they did take place at one stage. This has passed. When Jesus came on the scene, they were still in place. His sacrifice for sin, being far superior in every sense, replaced the old sacrifices. But this did not happen without resistance. In fact, Jesus did not reveal the full truth about it until after His resurrection. And even then, it took some time for it to sink in; for some, a longer time than others.
But in looking back, some of God's chosen were given insight into these things and were inspired of God to share it in letters. Then, as the light became brighter concerning the new covenant, things were expounded on by those writers.
It happens that in the days of the epistles, the gospels were not compiled into any kind of scriptural availability for the believers of that day. Thus, each church was dependant upon the truths that were revealed to them by their founder and mentor, and by the Holy Spirit within them. In that regard, Paul did not have the luxury of informing the Romans or Corinthians, or Galatians, etc., to read the letter in light of the gospels. He rather explained and summerized what he considered to be the most relevant and important things they needed to know at the time he wrote each letter.
These letters are now available to us for our benefit. But the doctrines contained in them are clear on their own, without having a dependance upon the gospels, or even the old testament, to understand them.
In fact, the biggest hinderance to the understanding and experiencing of the new covenant comes when through stubborn insistance, men try to incorporate old covenant concepts and practices into the new; ones that don't belong and actually interfere with the power of God in our lives. Some of these old practices and concepts were still in place in Jesus' day and even in Jesus' own life. Thus if we don't know how to identify and remove these from our present day covenant with God, which covenant did not commence until after Jesus' death, we become what James called "double minded", mixing the two covenants together.
In conclusion, I would have to suggest that the best way to remove the leaven from our understanding is to read the gospels rather, in light of the epistles. For in the epistles, they fully reveal certain things that were kept hidden (by God) until after the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord. Blessings, Howie
Stan,
You are partially right as Christ was sent mainly to the house of Israel, but He also helped all of those who were believers and kept the ways of God. He cured many who were not of the house of Israel, because they heard the message and accepted it and believed. It is the same today, if you hear the message, accept it and believe then you are accepted into the family. The problem is when a breach is created between Jew and Gentile, as God has never told any to do so, nor has He done it. There were Egyptians who came out of Egypt with the Children of Israel and were accepted by God as long as the followed the same laws that were for Israel. God has never differentiated between Jew and Gentile all are the same in His mind. All through the history of Israel those strangers who joined them selves to Israel only needed to follow the same laws that Israel did to be accepted by God. No breach was made between Jew and Gentile by God at any time all were treated the same under the law of God.
When the curtain was torn at the crucification of Christ the sacrificial laws was fulfilled by God to demonstrate that fact for us, just as His resting on the seventh day was a demonstration of fact for us. Paul states this fact many times in his epistles. When man tries to make a breach between Jew and Gentile he is making a monumental mistake, especially if he teaches this mistake to others, as the penalty for teachers is more severe than for non-teachers. Those who might have been granted salvation as a non-teacher will as a teacher be denied it. I am His messenger with His Word in my charge to relay to the fallen Protestant Church as they are in need of repentance and they need to follow the ways of God and forget the ways of man they are presently following. The Papacy has made a breach in the people of God with their paganism of Christianity and it needs to be healed in order for them to be granted salvation. In fact they with their current beliefs will not like salvation, thus not have it granted to them. A major change of heart is necessary in order for them to even welcome salvation.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High
You are partially right as Christ was sent mainly to the house of Israel, but He also helped all of those who were believers and kept the ways of God. He cured many who were not of the house of Israel, because they heard the message and accepted it and believed. It is the same today, if you hear the message, accept it and believe then you are accepted into the family. The problem is when a breach is created between Jew and Gentile, as God has never told any to do so, nor has He done it. There were Egyptians who came out of Egypt with the Children of Israel and were accepted by God as long as the followed the same laws that were for Israel. God has never differentiated between Jew and Gentile all are the same in His mind. All through the history of Israel those strangers who joined them selves to Israel only needed to follow the same laws that Israel did to be accepted by God. No breach was made between Jew and Gentile by God at any time all were treated the same under the law of God.
When the curtain was torn at the crucification of Christ the sacrificial laws was fulfilled by God to demonstrate that fact for us, just as His resting on the seventh day was a demonstration of fact for us. Paul states this fact many times in his epistles. When man tries to make a breach between Jew and Gentile he is making a monumental mistake, especially if he teaches this mistake to others, as the penalty for teachers is more severe than for non-teachers. Those who might have been granted salvation as a non-teacher will as a teacher be denied it. I am His messenger with His Word in my charge to relay to the fallen Protestant Church as they are in need of repentance and they need to follow the ways of God and forget the ways of man they are presently following. The Papacy has made a breach in the people of God with their paganism of Christianity and it needs to be healed in order for them to be granted salvation. In fact they with their current beliefs will not like salvation, thus not have it granted to them. A major change of heart is necessary in order for them to even welcome salvation.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High
I'm going to assume you are responding to my post #151. Please try to use the quote feature in future. It makes it so much easier to keep the posts within context.
I am in fact 100% right....Matthew 15:24; “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
This of course did NOT preclude Him from ministering into peoples lives, even if they were not of the Israel sheep pen. He actually confirmed this in John 10:16, and called Paul to be the minister to these sheep.
The curtain was torn by God, notice from the top to the bottom, to signify we would no longer reside in a temple of brick and stone, but in our hearts.
I understand your feelings about the RCC, but they border on vehemence. I challenge you to let God worry about the RCC and you worry about individuals. Don't let the enemy make you focus on THINGS. The RCC will go the way of ALL organizations. The saints will be the ones moving on, and the RCC does contain saints just as any other organized Christian church does. As Christians, we do need to focus on our commonality, Jesus Christ, and not on our differences. BTW, I was raised RCC bit left it many many years ago. A personal choice, NOT a condemnation of the people.
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