Communion - Lord's Supper - Eucharist

[BreadOfLife]

and i'm sure you believe that too, ok; have a nice day

Absolutely.
Apparently - YOU didn't check the Catechism of the Catholic Church before sticking your foot in your mouth . . .
Catechism of the Catholic Church
I. "YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD AND HIM ONLY SHALL YOU SERVE"

2084 God makes himself known by recalling his all-powerful loving, and liberating action in the history of the one he addresses: "I brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." The first word contains the first commandment of the Law: "You shall fear the LORD your God; you shall serve him. . . . You shall not go after other gods."5 God's first call and just demand is that man accept him and worship him.

2085 The one and true God first reveals his glory to Israel.6 The revelation of the vocation and truth of man is linked to the revelation of God. Man's vocation is to make God manifest by acting in conformity with his creation "in the image and likeness of God":
There will never be another God, Trypho, and there has been no other since the world began . . . than he who made and ordered the universe. We do not think that our God is different from yours. He is the same who brought your fathers out of Egypt "by his powerful hand and his outstretched arm." We do not place our hope in some other god, for there is none, but in the same God as you do: the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.7
2086 "The first commandment embraces faith, hope, and charity. When we say 'God' we confess a constant, unchangeable being, always the same, faithful and just, without any evil. It follows that we must necessarily accept his words and have complete faith in him and acknowledge his authority. He is almighty, merciful, and infinitely beneficent. Who could not place all hope in him? Who could not love him when contemplating the treasures of goodness and love he has poured out on us? Hence the formula God employs in the Scripture at the beginning and end of his commandments: 'I am the LORD.'"8

 

[BreadOfLife]

Point is.. Ignatius's epistles do not line up with John's epistles and thus they are not in agreement.

Can you give me an example of where Ignatius is in contradiction with John's Gospel regarding the Eucharist?
Please be succinct.

 

[bbyrd009]

YOU didn't check the Catechism of the Catholic Church

i didn't check the Satanic Verses either, so what

 

[BreadOfLife]

i didn't check the Satanic Verses either, so what

The point is - if you're going to make a claim about what the Catholic Church teaches - you should go to the source, Einstein.

Making it up as you go along simply shows your ignorance . . .

 

[bbyrd009]

if you're going to make a claim about what the Catholic Church teaches

why would i want to do this? I have no desire to make claims about perverts, or fascists, or those who support them, no.
For the same reason that you are here i guess, and not on a Catholic site, right.
i mean are you lost, or need directions or a link to one, or what

 

[BreadOfLife]

why would i want to do this? I have no desire to make claims about perverts, or fascists, or those who support them, no.
For the same reason that you are here i guess, and not on a Catholic site, right.
i mean are you lost, or need directions or a link to one, or what

You certainly DID allude to the false ideas that:
a. Ignatius named himself "Ignatius"
b. Catholics "worship" him and other saints.
c. Catholic saints added the title of "Saint" before their own names.

You routinely make these kinds of idiotic claims - the you become indignant when somebody holds you accountable. Grow up, bbyrd . . .

 

[bbyrd009]

You certainly DID

you know what Stockholm Syndrome is, BoL; why do you schill for your oppressors? The Oppressors? Don't you see that they have made you what you are today? Firewood? Is that what you want to be? You know the RCC was compelled to set up an account to pay for counselling for victims, right. Forgiveness i totally understand ok, but denial is not forgiveness. You were abused, plain and simple.
i wish you the best, and i hope you are able to change your mind and get free of them ok

 

[BreadOfLife]

you know what Stockholm Syndrome is, BoL; why do you schill for your oppressors? The Oppressors? Don't you see that they have made you what you are today? Firewood? Is that what you want to be? You know the RCC was compelled to set up an account to pay for counselling for victims, right. Forgiveness i totally understand ok, but denial is not forgiveness. You were abused, plain and simple.
i wish you the best, and i hope you are able to change your mind and get free of them ok

In other words - you have absolutely ZERO evidence for your moronic claims.
That's what I thought . . .

 

[Philip James]

Point is.. Ignatius's epistles do not line up with John's epistles

You are mistaken.
The point is that Smyrna and Antioch are in agreement and in communion with John, from whom they learned these things directly.
Were Ignatius one of those who 'went out' from Johns community (as you suggested in your previous post) then Polycarp would have had nothing to do with him. Rather they are both great heroes of the Faith, and you would do well to learn from them.
If you see a contradiction between Ignatius and John, it is because you have misunderstood John, or Ignatius, or both.

John's epistles are scripture whereas Ignatius's epistles are not for why it is not in the accepted books of the Bible

And you know this how? Oh yeah, because groups of Orthodox, Catholic bishops came together at councils and guided by the Holy Spirit , agreed on the canon of the NT. (Puzzling that you would accept the teaching authority of the magesterium on this issue and reject it on others)

Do you know why Ignatius' letters were not included?

Peace!

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

You are mistaken.

The apostle John warns believers of those that would take the place of Christ as in antichrist. He warns against the spirit of the antichrist whereby believers can go astray in seeking after then "instead of the Son".

Ignatius writes for believers to see Bishops as Christ Himself, thereby Ignatius is not in agreement with John for having the bishops take the place of Christ Himself in the eyes of the believers. There is no way the apostle John would agree with Ignatius on that issue and I believe because Ignatius taught that is why he went out from John as John reported such departure in 1 John 2nd chapter in regards to being many antichrists in the world.

 

[Philip James]

The apostle John warns believers of those that would take the place of Christ as in antichrist. He warns against the spirit of the antichrist whereby believers can go astray in seeking after then "instead of the Son".

You are putting words in John's mouth here. John describes just who is antichrist multiple times and your definition above is not in any of them..

And if you had read the letter of Ignatius that you linked, you would have seen that Ignatius does NONE of the things that John says antichrists do...

Further you would have seen that Ignatius does not teach to replace Christ with the bishop , but rather to treat the bishop as you would Christ,
Because Christ sends him.

Now John never writes about church order, or prebyters, or bishops... But Paul had this to say to the Corinthians:

Thus should one regard us: as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God

And also:

For if I have boasted to him about you, I was not put to shame. No, just as everything we said to you was true, so our boasting before Titus proved to be the truth.

And his heart goes out to you all the more, as he remembers the obedience of all of you, when you received him with fear and trembling.

If you want to compare John and Ignatius look at things they both write about,

Like the Bread of Life discourse and Ignatius statements on the Eucharist.

Like love for one anothed

Like unity, and what it means to leave that unity....

I suggest you stop trying (unsuccesfully) to paint Ignatius as an antichrist and rather prayerfully read his words.

May the Lord grant you mercy and Grace!

Peace!

 

[BreadOfLife]

The apostle John warns believers of those that would take the place of Christ as in antichrist. He warns against the spirit of the antichrist whereby believers can go astray in seeking after then "instead of the Son".

Ignatius writes for believers to see Bishops as Christ Himself, thereby Ignatius is not in agreement with John for having the bishops take the place of Christ Himself in the eyes of the believers. There is no way the apostle John would agree with Ignatius on that issue and I believe because Ignatius taught that is why he went out from John as John reported such departure in 1 John 2nd chapter in regards to being many antichrists in the world.

From Ignatius of Antioch's Letter to the Smyrnaeans:
"Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God."

Tell me - WHERE does Ignatius tell the people to replace Christ with a Bishop??
He is telling them to obey the Bishop - just as Christ obeys the father. If anything - he is comparing his READERS to Christ - NOT the Bishop.

John would have vouched for Ignatius's letter, as there was NOTHING that was in disagreement with HIS writings.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

From Ignatius of Antioch's Letter to the Smyrnaeans:
"Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God."

Tell me - WHERE does Ignatius tell the people to replace Christ with a Bishop??
He is telling them to obey the Bishop - just as Christ obeys the father. If anything - he is comparing his READERS to Christ - NOT the Bishop.

John would have vouched for Ignatius's letter, as there was NOTHING that was in disagreement with HIS writings.

I point out that the apostle John would refer believers to Christ for walking in the light as the example set.

1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. It was from Ignatius's epistle to the Ephesians that I had found contentions with as not being in agreement with John's epistles.

CHURCH FATHERS: Epistle to the Ephesians (St. Ignatius)

The above link is to Ignatius epistle to the Ephesians.

And your implying that he did not say that exactly is misleading. The intention of the message is to see the bishop as they would see Christ.

From submitting to the word of God as He is the Head of ever believer, Ignatius instead teaches submitting to the will of the bishop as stated below.

Chapter 4:

"Wherefore it is fitting that you should run together in accordance with the will of your bishop, which thing also you do."

Chapter 6:

"Now the more any one sees the bishop keeping silence, the more ought he to revere him. For we ought to receive every one whom the Master of the house sends to be over His household, Matthew 24:45 as we would do Him that sent him. It is manifest, therefore, that we should look upon the bishop even as we would upon the Lord Himself."

I can see how John's warning below applies to Ignatius.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. 26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

So any one taking the place of Christ in being "lord" over them in doing his will and not necessarily His will, is the antichrist. Ignatius is seductive in pointing believers to the bishop and to appointed men moreso than pointing to Christ. The fact that he exhorts believers to revere a bishop for being in silence is just plain evil. How can any bishop manage the house of God in silence?

By the way, doesn't the Pope sees himself as being in Christ's stead?

Pope Benedict XIV, Ubi Primum, Dec. 3, 1740.

"“The Pope is Christ in office, Christ in jurisdiction and power...We bow down before thy voice, O Holy Father, as we would before Christ Himself.”

You may doubt what Ignatius was talking about, but surely you can see where it has led to.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

You are putting words in John's mouth here. John describes just who is antichrist multiple times and your definition above is not in any of them..

Just you saying so, does not make it so.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. 26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

So those that seduce believers into departing from Him as being the Christ to them as being in His stead are the antichrists.

Pope Benedict XIV, Ubi Primum, Dec. 3, 1740.

"“The Pope is Christ in office, Christ in jurisdiction and power...We bow down before thy voice, O Holy Father, as we would before Christ Himself.”

In Chapter 6 of Ignatius epistle to the Ephesians...

CHURCH FATHERS: Epistle to the Ephesians (St. Ignatius)

"Now the more any one sees the bishop keeping silence, the more ought he to revere him. For we ought to receive every one whom the Master of the house sends to be over His household, Matthew 24:45 as we would do Him that sent him. It is manifest, therefore, that we should look upon the bishop even as we would upon the Lord Himself."

By His grace & by His help, I certainly can see how a little leaven can leaven into a whole lump. Has Christ helped you to see this too?

 

[BreadOfLife]

I point out that the apostle John would refer believers to Christ for walking in the light as the example set.

1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. It was from Ignatius's epistle to the Ephesians that I had found contentions with as not being in agreement with John's epistles.

CHURCH FATHERS: Epistle to the Ephesians (St. Ignatius)

The above link is to Ignatius epistle to the Ephesians.

And your implying that he did not say that exactly is misleading. The intention of the message is to see the bishop as they would see Christ.

From submitting to the word of God as He is the Head of ever believer, Ignatius instead teaches submitting to the will of the bishop as stated below.

Chapter 4:
"Wherefore it is fitting that you should run together in accordance with the will of your bishop, which thing also you do."

Chapter 6:
"Now the more any one sees the bishop keeping silence, the more ought he to revere him. For we ought to receive every one whom the Master of the house sends to be over His household, Matthew 24:45 as we would do Him that sent him. It is manifest, therefore, that we should look upon the bishop even as we would upon the Lord Himself."

I can see how John's warning below applies to Ignatius.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. 26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

So any one taking the place of Christ in being "lord" over them in doing his will and not necessarily His will, is the antichrist. Ignatius is seductive in pointing believers to the bishop and to appointed men moreso than pointing to Christ. The fact that he exhorts believers to revere a bishop for being in silence is just plain evil. How can any bishop manage the house of God in silence?

By the way, doesn't the Pope sees himself as being in Christ's stead?

Pope Benedict XIV, Ubi Primum, Dec. 3, 1740.

"“The Pope is Christ in office, Christ in jurisdiction and power...We bow down before thy voice, O Holy Father, as we would before Christ Himself.”

You may doubt what Ignatius was talking about, but surely you can see where it has led to.

This is utter nonsense and shows a real ignorance of Scripture.

Paul used SIMILAR language to that used by Ignatius.
Was Paul in contradiction with John?? Let's review . . .

- In Eph. 5:1, Paul tells his readers to be imitators of GOD.
- HOWEVER - in 1 Cor. 11:1, Paul insists that his readers be imitators of HIM.
WHO do we imitate - Christ or Paul??

- In 2 thess. 2:15, Paul tells his readers to "hold fast to the Traditions" that THEY taught (not Christ) - whether by an ORAL statement - or by a LETTER from them.
I thought we were supposed to follow the traditions and precepts of Christ?

- In 1 Thess. 5:12, Paul tells his readers to respect those who are "OVER THEM" in Christ.
- In 1 Tim. 5:17, he states that these men who are "OVER THEM" in Christ deserve DOUBLE HONOR for laboring in the Word and doctrine.
I thought we weren't supposed to hold anybody in Christ in higher esteem that anybody else??

This illustrates that you don't have a CLUE about the writings of Ignatius because you are devoid of any Scriptural understanding.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

This is utter nonsense and shows a real ignorance of Scripture.

Paul used SIMILAR language to that used by Ignatius.
Was Paul in contradiction with John?? Let's review . . .

- In Eph. 5:1, Paul tells his readers to be imitators of GOD.
- HOWEVER - in 1 Cor. 11:1, Paul insists that his readers be imitators of HIM.
WHO do we imitate - Christ or Paul??

- In 2 thess. 2:15, Paul tells his readers to "hold fast to the Traditions" that THEY taught (not Christ) - whether by an ORAL statement - or by a LETTER from them.
I thought we were supposed to follow the traditions and precepts of Christ?

- In 1 Thess. 5:12, Paul tells his readers to respect those who are "OVER THEM" in Christ.
- In 1 Tim. 5:17, he states that these men who are "OVER THEM" in Christ deserve DOUBLE HONOR for laboring in the Word and doctrine.
I thought we weren't supposed to hold anybody in Christ in higher esteem that anybody else??

This illustrates that you don't have a CLUE about the writings of Ignatius because you are devoid of any Scriptural understanding.

Feel free to explain why the epistles of Ignatius are not in scripture or at the very least, the Catholic Bible.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Feel free to explain why the epistles of Ignatius are not in scripture or at the very least, the Catholic Bible.

Because the Church in its wisdom and being led by the Holy Spirit didn't declare them to be inspired.
Besides - they were written AFTER the deaths of the Apostles.

Can you name ANY other Book of the NT that was written AFTER the Apostles all died?

PS - the Catholic Bible IS the Scriptures in their entirety.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Because the Church in its wisdom and being led by the Holy Spirit didn't declare them to be inspired.
Besides - they were written AFTER the deaths of the Apostles.

Can you name ANY other Book of the NT that was written AFTER the Apostles all died?

PS - the Catholic Bible IS the Scriptures in their entirety.

Hmm.. Ignatius, supposedly a student of the apostle John....yet his writings were after the apostles had died? I reckon it would be impossible to confirm or refute that, albeit circumspect.

However, why would the Catholic Church create or maintain doctrines from the writings of Ignatius if they do not believe they were inspired?

Or don't you see Ignatius's epistle to the Ephesians as the premises for the Pope taking the place of Christ as the "head" of the Church when Ignatius has written that the church were to revere the bishop in silence and that same bishop is to be seen as Christ Himself in chapter 6?

"Now the more any one sees the bishop keeping silence, the more ought he to revere him. For we ought to receive every one whom the Master of the house sends to be over His household, Matthew 24:45 as we would do Him that sent him. It is manifest, therefore, that we should look upon the bishop even as we would upon the Lord Himself."

CHURCH FATHERS: Epistle to the Ephesians (St. Ignatius)

 

[BreadOfLife]

Hmm.. Ignatius, supposedly a student of the apostle John....yet his writings were after the apostles had died? I reckon it would be impossible to confirm or refute that, albeit circumspect.

However, why would the Catholic Church create or maintain doctrines from the writings of Ignatius if they do not believe they were inspired?

Or don't you see Ignatius's epistle to the Ephesians as the premises for the Pope taking the place of Christ as the "head" of the Church when Ignatius has written that the church were to revere the bishop in silence and that same bishop is to be seen as Christ Himself in chapter 6?

"Now the more any one sees the bishop keeping silence, the more ought he to revere him. For we ought to receive every one whom the Master of the house sends to be over His household, Matthew 24:45 as we would do Him that sent him. It is manifest, therefore, that we should look upon the bishop even as we would upon the Lord Himself."

CHURCH FATHERS: Epistle to the Ephesians (St. Ignatius)

Name a doctrine that the Catholic Church "created" from the writings of Ignatius of Antioch.
Just ONE . . .

As for your 2nd comment in RED - AGAIN, we see Paul using the same language.
In 2 Cor. 2:10, he states, “Whomever you forgive anything, so do I. For indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for you in the presence of Christ.”

In the Greek, the word “presence” in this phrase is Prosopone, which means Person. In the PERSON of Christ is a more correct translation. Paul was indicating that they were forgiving sins in the PERSON of Christ, which is translated into Latin as In Persona Christi.

Is Paul speaking heresy??

PS - Ignatius's 7 Letters were written on the way to his death by martyrdom in about the year AD 110. The apostles were DEAD.

 

[Philip James]

22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Ok , lets see what Ignatius has to say and compare...

being united and elected through the true passion by the will of the Father, and Jesus Christ, our God: Abundant happiness through Jesus Christ, and His undefiled grace....

I have become acquainted with your name, much-beloved in God, which you have acquired by the habit of righteousness, according to the faith and love in Jesus Christ our Saviour.....


I received, therefore, your whole multitude in the name of God, through Onesimus, a man of inexpressible love, and your bishop in the flesh, whom I pray you by Jesus Christ to love, and that you would all seek to be like him. And blessed be He who has granted unto you, being worthy, to obtain such an excellent bishop....

as the Father of our Lord Jesus Christshall also refresh...

. It is therefore befitting that you should in every way glorify Jesus Christ, who has glorified you, that by a unanimous obedience you may be perfectly joined together in the same mind, and in the same judgment, and may all speak the same thing concerning the same thing,


And thats just in the first 2 chapters... So even though you are suggesting, by bolding John on this, that Ignatius denies Jesus is the Christ,
Clearly that is not so...

Ill discuss the ridiculous notion that Ignatius was one of those who went out from the apostolic community later...