Consummation

[VictoryinJesus]

Keep in mind at no point in our history will we ever know all that Jehovah does Ecc 3:11. The path of the righteous is like the bright light that gets brighter and brighter each day Pro 4:18,

love Proverbs 4:18! Agree with learning something new every day. Sometimes it seems like one tiny step forward and ten backwards.

you said something which has been on my mind lately as well and that is the word “equal to”. We quote the verse where he thought it not robbery or a thing to be grasped (depending on the version) to be equal with God. Another one I don’t understand.

All those of us who are on the road to life, will be growing until we reach perfection, something that will not be achieved until the end of the millennial reign of Christ. At that point we will be equal to Adam,

For me you said something interesting here in “at that point we will be equal to Adam”

I’ve been thinking a lot about what is equal …like the passages “the kingdom of heaven is likened unto” or OT “to who then will you liken God?” Isaiah 40:18.

concerning equal unto two quotes keep coming up “a pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.” Which leaves me with the questions: who was Jesus Christ teacher? Was He fully trained in “though he was a son he learned obedience through the things he suffered” “becoming obedient unto death”.

also “it is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher and the slave like his master.” Matthew 10:25.

point is who is our master, who is our teacher if we will be equal to Adam?

 

[Robert Gwin]

love Proverbs 4:18! Agree with learning something new every day. Sometimes it seems like one tiny step forward and ten backwards.

you said something which has been on my mind lately as well and that is the word “equal to”. We quote the verse where he thought it not robbery or a thing to be grasped (depending on the version) to be equal with God. Another one I don’t understand.

For me you said something interesting here in “at that point we will be equal to Adam”

I’ve been thinking a lot about what is equal …like the passages “the kingdom of heaven is likened unto” or OT “to who then will you liken God?” Isaiah 40:18.

concerning equal unto two quotes keep coming up “a pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.” Which leaves me with the questions: who was Jesus Christ teacher? Was He fully trained in “though he was a son he learned obedience through the things he suffered” “becoming obedient unto death”.

also “it is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher and the slave like his master.” Matthew 10:25.

point is who is our master, who is our teacher if we will be equal to Adam?

Again Vicky, it is the translator. I am not sure if you think Jesus is God or not, perhaps we discussed it, but my memory is squat, I suffer from CRS (Cant remember. . . stuff ). I will say this, after the council of Nicea, Jesus was promoted as being God in the flesh maam. The KJV actively promotes that teaching and has altered many passages to enforce that belief. The verse you quoted is also written in 16th century English, yet still today terms like Is not doesn't mean no, if you understand what I mean. Jesus did not consider himself equal to God Jn 14:28, rather the translators in promoting the equality chose to translate those words that way. In reality the verse it saying that being equal to God is something that is not to be grasped. At no time will anyone ever become equal to Jehovah Ecc 3:11

 

[Lambano]

I suffer from CRS (Cant remember. . . stuff ).

LOL! Me too, Robert. Me too.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Again Vicky, it is the translator. I am not sure if you think Jesus is God or not, perhaps we discussed it, but my memory is squat, I suffer from CRS (Cant remember. . . stuff ).

CRS! If you don’t mind I’m going to steal that one because I’m almost positive I have the same thing.

 

[Lambano]

you said something which has been on my mind lately as well and that is the word “equal to”. We quote the verse where he thought it not robbery or a thing to be grasped (depending on the version) to be equal with God. Another one I don’t understand.

@VictoryinJesus, this is a similar translation issue. Here is a link to the Greek: Philippians 2 (NASB95) - Therefore if there is any (blueletterbible.org)

ὃς (Who) ἐν (in) μορφῇ (form; a form) θεοῦ (God's; of God) ὑπάρχων (making a beginning; being) οὐχ (not) ἁρπαγμὸν (the act of seizing or robbery; a thing seized or held fast) ἡγήσατο (led; considered or thought) τὸ (the; the one; the thing) εἶναι (to be) ἴσα (equal) θεῷ (to God).

The sense of the verse depends on how you translate ἁρπαγμὸν "harpagmon" (Note: Word order is somewhat flexible in Koine Greek, but important in English.) The KJV translators chose the "act of robbery" definition; the NASB translators, "the thing seized" definition.

Now I've given you the meaning of the Greek words. (And I've done my best to get the tenses and verb cases consistent in my English words.) How do YOU translate the passage? If you allow "scripture to interpret scripture", are you letting your Bible define your theology, or letting your theology define your Bible?

 

[Robert Gwin]

CRS! If you don’t mind I’m going to steal that one because I’m almost positive I have the same thing.

You certainly can Vicky, but I have to admit, I stole it from someone else myself, although it wasn't quite worded that way

 

[VictoryinJesus]

How do YOU translate the passage? If you allow "scripture to interpret scripture", are you letting your Bible define your theology, or letting your theology define your Bible?

good question. “Are you letting your bible define your theology, or letting your theology define your bible?” Some one once told (warned)me that people define God by their own personality. That their God becomes to them whatever their personality is. Honestly, considering if that is true …how can any one ever trust it is really God they hear or follow for help or only themself?

this is a similar translation issue. Here is a link to the Greek: Philippians 2 (NASB95) - Therefore if there is a

this version has “equality” instead of equal. Is equality evil? When I think of equality what comes to mind is sharing in his sufferings? And also when they said Gods way is not equal in
Ezekiel 33:17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.

 

[Lambano]

good question. “Are you letting your bible define your theology, or letting your theology define your bible?” Some one once told (warned)me that people define God by their own personality. That their God becomes to them whatever their personality is. Honestly, considering if that is true …how can any one ever trust it is really God they hear or follow for help or only themself?

Yeah. I hear you there. Maybe "He isn't who I thought He was" should be our guiding principle for discernment? I was using something similar as my profile post. So much of my Christian experience can be summed up in the phrase, "It wasn't what I thought it was". No wonder most of God's People didn't recognize Christ when He came. They are us.

 

[Lambano]

this version has “equality” instead of equal. Is equality evil? When I think of equality what comes to mind is sharing in his sufferings? And also when they said Gods way is not equal in
Ezekiel 33:17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.

That's another translation issue. The Hebrew word תָּכַן "takan" means "to regulate, measure, estimate, ponder, balance, make even, level, weigh, be equal, be weighed out, test, prove", or "to be made even or right, be adjusted to the standard". The Septuagint translators didn't use "isos" in their translation, they used "hodos euthus" meaning a straight or level path. The complaint is, "The Lord's path is not level." God's response is, "No, your path is not level". They're talking about fairness. I guess my generation isn't the first to say, "Life isn't fair!".

Would you still ask, "Is equality evil?" Or should the question then be, "Is expecting fairness evil?"

 

[VictoryinJesus]

That's another translation issue. The Hebrew word תָּכַן "takan" means "to regulate, measure, estimate, ponder, balance, make even, level, weigh, be equal, be weighed out, test, prove", or "to be made even or right, be adjusted to the standard". The Septuagint translators didn't use "isos" in their translation, they used "hodos euthus" meaning a straight or level path. The complaint is, "The Lord's path is not level." God's response is, "No, your path is not level". They're talking about fairness. I guess my generation isn't the first to say, "Life isn't fair!".

Would you still ask, "Is equality evil?" Or should the question then be, "Is expecting fairness evil?"

I’m sorry, I don’t think we see it the same. You are very knowledgeable with translation. I am not. At this moment and I do realize this could change…your post makes me think of so many passages. For example where the word speaks of setting up a standard. To me that standard is Christ. Or speaking of ‘prove’
Romans 12:2. Equal to God to me when spoken of Christ which he considered not ‘equality” a thing to be grasped, or he thought it not robbery doesn’t end there but instead continues through to; he became a servant by lowering himself, thinking it not robbery humility equality with a God. You quoted the OT if I’m not mistaken or someone did where God asked to whom will you liken Me? If we say there is none to liken unto God…then why is Christ the example in “if you have seen me you have seen the Father.” That is why I quoted the student will become as his Master, the disciple as his teacher. As far as likened unto or equality, again just an opinion, but he said I am lowly and of a humble spirit which to me is equal to, the substance, of who God is in nature for instance 1 Corinthians 13:4-10. The perfect in that verse to me leads back to
Luke 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
I get other versions saying instead of perfect “fully trained” in shall be as his master. Can we serve two masters? Considering not a thing to be grasped or he considered it not robbery to have equality with His Master Teacher 1 Corinthians 2:13-14 or to be likened unto his Masters Teachers’ image Hebrews 10:34-38 which again to me goes back to his not considering it robbery or a thing to be grasped but humbled himself and for the Joy set before him, he endured.

point is saying life isn’t fair. Equality “the standard” Follow Christ?

 

[Lambano]

Equal to God to me when spoken of Christ which he considered not ‘equality” a thing to be grasped, or he thought it not robbery doesn’t end there but instead continues through to; he became a servant by lowering himself, thinking it not robbery humility equality with a God.

Since you brought up the rest of the Philippians poem (that context thingy)...

Paul talks about Christ humbling Himself in becoming a Servant. That makes me think the correct translation of ἁρπαγμός is definition II-B, "a thing to be ...held fast, retained". That fits in with the rest of the poem. Christ, being in the beginning in the form of God, did not consider equality to God something to be held on to, so He humbled Himself and took the form of a servant. The KJV "robbery" definition never did make sense to me. But that implies that equality with God was something Christ actually did have; He just chose not to hold onto it. Does He have it now that His name is exalted above every other name and every knee will bow to Him?

Who indeed is like God? Like Father, like Son, they say. How do we reconcile this with Judaism's non-negotiable tenet, monotheism?

 

[Lambano]

Still just talking about translation (and hopefully giving you the tools so you can do this yourself)...

The word used in 1 Corinthians 13:10 is τέλειον, "telios", meaning "finished, complete, perfect, that which is perfect". Right now we only have partial knowledge; it is promised that we will have complete knowledge.

The word used in Luke 6:40 is κατηρτισμένος "katartizo", meaning "to mend or repair; to make complete; to fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust; ethically, to strengthen, complete, perfect; to make one what one ought to be". We are told to follow and learn from Christ. The promise is that when He appears, we will be fully trained and like Him. (1 John 3:2) And maybe, just maybe, we'll start to smell like Jesus in this life.

[Epilogue]
Dang, how do you DO that? I couldn't follow where you were going, so I decided to stick with simple translation issues which I think I understand.

 

[ScottA]

Can you help? First is the word even in the bible? The only place I could find it was in Daniel 9:27 but that was in the kjv. All other versions have consumption or something else. Consumption and consummation, at least in my understanding are polar opposite when thinking of consummation of a marriage or consumption of a thing?

I ask because John 19:30 therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said “it is finished.”

“it is finished” led to “consummation”; properly to complete (consummate).
Strong's Greek: 5055. τελέω (teleó) -- to bring to an end, complete, fulfill


https://biblehub.com/greek/5056.htm

5056^ closure with all it results.

consumption is to destroy, or make an end. How does or can that become consummation as in marriage?

It looks like you have your answer.

(put an end to)