Conversation with An Atheist

[Lizbeth]

If you can see the wonder of creation and how impossible that such a thing could exist....together with us having life and a body that automatically breathes with a heartbeat that doesn't stop...you begin the realize that the human mind is very limited in understanding the immensity of the WHY we exist at all. The truth is far beyond the capacity of a human mind. No one can know the purpose of creation just by looking at it.

God is silent. He hides Himself. Why? We are on trial here...not God. We are permitted many excesses of foolishness based on our free will. Beyond that, we have bodies that want to sin. That very fact proves our own depravity when it comes to NOT doing as we somehow know that we ought to.

Unless we become wicked...we each have a conscience. We care about others in a natural way, unless our consciences become singed.

Why do we love? It is because we are put here on earth to learn about love....to love others. And ultimately to love God.

The greatest commandment is to love God whom we don't see. There is a GREAT reward for doing so. God is looking for faith as a foundation for those who would live in an eternity with God.

God is merciful....but beyond that God is elevating those who He feels MERIT eternal life. Those whose faith and behaviour are linked to God.

The biggest issue in my view is the fact that free will upsets the message of the truth...so that even if a person wants to join the faithful ones, there is massive confusion of what that is.....and that is because evil ALSO exists in the world.

The greatest calling in this world is to overcome evil with good. Even atheists like the idea of superheroes who defeat evil.

So we are caught in a narrative that few can see with any clarity. Those who see with clarity are God's prophets. Those who do rightly in love towards others are the righteous...regardless of their beliefs. Mercy on the righteous, and glory among the saints (prophets)

If you receive a prophet in the name of a prophet you get a share in their reward.

if you receive a righteous man in the name of a righteous man, you get mercy from God.

Live so as to get God's mercy.

JESUS THE CHRIST is the only righteous man and prophet God has ordained in the new covenant that one must receive to share in His reward/inheritance. Not any mortal earthly man. (The old testament is full of earthly types/shadows of the spiritual realities of the new covenant.) Please tell that to Manchunian. Salvation is by faith in Jesus, not by faith in any other name.

 

[amigo de christo]

JESUS THE CHRIST is the only righteous man and prophet God has ordained in the new covenant that one must receive to share in their reward/inheritance. Not any mortal earthly man. (The old testament is full of earthly types/shadows of the spiritual realities of the new covenant.) Please tell that to Manchunian. Salvation is by faith in Jesus, not by faith in any other name.

A hearty amen to that sister .
LET US POINT TO CHRIST JESUS .
For in HE ALONE is salvation . And what must i do sirs to be saved .
BELIEVE YE ON JESUS THE CHRIST . Salvation is not by faith in amigo or what i say
Salvation darn sure does not come by the all inclusive god who is satan either .
AND JESUS WIL LGET THE GLORY , FOR GOD will have the GLORY .
And to deny HIM , HIS GOSPEL , to call GOD A LIAR like incluisivitiy does , DOES NOT HONOR GOD
DOES NOT HONOR THE SON . it simply calls HIM A LIAR . For my preaching of the dire need to believe ON JESUS
ol epi called me AN EXTREMIST . kinda odd dont ya thin k. JESUS said the same , and all the apostels said the same .
SOON our betrayal will come sister . we will be seen as nothing more than extremists and a danger to satans world peace,
ONLY they will think its GODS world peace plan .

 

[Episkopos]

I think a religious forum is probably not the best place for an atheist to explore the existence of God.

 

[Mancunian]

I think a religious forum is probably not the best place for an atheist to explore the existence of God.

I think that you're probably right.

 

[Wrangler]

Do you think that I just haven't bothered to try?
I used to pray, I've asked for signs, I attended church....
In the end it just felt like talking to myself, I got the feeling that it was me that was the problem, I was doing something wrong... Not getting anywhere because of me not God.

You are correct, I've read the Bible and do find it confusing and contradictory, that's partly why I can't subscribe to Christianity any more.
Being on this forum has reinforced that, when I see all the different opinions of Christians themselves, in fighting about certain beliefs, and sometimes chasms between those opinions.

And that's just Christiansity....
When I look at other world religions, they all make different claims, there's in fighting between various sects and no clear general consensus about what God is/wants.

I'm of the opinion that there probably was a creative power, whether that power is interventional or never has been is debatable.
I've never sensed it personally so until I do, I'll take it that it doesn't exist anymore or is not interested in it's creation.

Thank you for this very open answer. I greatly appreciate it.

Most Atheists have arguments and often anger and even hate in their hearts toward Christianity, in particular. I often counter that we Christians don't have arguments but experience. But you are coming from the position of experience. I'm sorry you've had such experiences as feeling like you're talking to yourself and don't know what else to say other than my experience was different - but only after 4 decades. Before that, our experiences were very similar. When I was nearly 40 I experienced what I learned a decade later was prevenient grace; the Holy Spirit came to me when I was an enemy of Christ.

Regarding understanding the Bible, especially the OT, I believe you can only properly understand it with the Spirit. If you don't have that, it will seem contradictory, as you say. (We can dig into that later).

Talking to (some) Christians makes my none belief stronger.

I understand as I know some believers are adverse witnesses.

My thoughts on the video...
Although I have to admit that laws of mathematics are definitely not man made, it doesn't lead me to automatically think that the God of Christianity is responsible for them.

1st things 1st. There is a God as proven by the fact that numbers exist, math is a discovery not a human invention, which implies a consciousness other than man created, not only it but the universe, the laws of physics based on it. This is profound. For more information see

Evidence To Be Seen

We should not and need not abandon the field of evidence to the lost enemies of our Lord. See Psalm 19. In that thread, I made the following points. While faith is the evidence of things unseen, there is evidence to be seen. (In this thread, I want to compile the evidence.) Are you required to...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[Wrangler]

I think a religious forum is probably not the best place for an atheist to explore the existence of God.

On the contrary, by their fruit, you will know them. Where is a better place for an atheist to explore the existence of God?

 

[Wrangler]

The number one thing that turns people away from Christ...are those who claim to be Christians.

Sad but true. This post should humble us all.

 

[Wrangler]

I rest my case.

A book you might like is Atheism on Trial by Louis Markos.

By now, you probably wouldn't be surprised to learn I have more than one member at CyB on ignore - and why that is. LOL.

 

[Mancunian]

A book you might like is Atheism on Trial by Louis Markos.

By now, you probably wouldn't be surprised to learn I have more than one member at CyB on ignore - and why that is. LOL.

I'll definitely have a look for the book recommendation, it's autumn and the nights are drawing in.

 

[ProDeo]

I was raised as a Christian and attended Church of England schools, I was a regular at Sunday school in my youth and enjoyed being a part of that.

My journey into none belief started when I stopped listening to what I was told, and read the Bible from front to back.
The old testament is very unpleasant in parts and it got me thinking about God's morality....
The new testament although less offensive still rang alarm bells, I found it to be contradictory.
I struggled with the concept of sacrifice being the only way that God could forgive.

Talking to (some) Christians makes my none belief stronger.

My thoughts on the video...
Although I have to admit that laws of mathematics are definitely not man made, it doesn't lead me to automatically think that the God of Christianity is responsible for them.

I think that I've already said on this forum that there could well be a creative force that is/was responsible for them, that's fine by me...
The problem's arise when people give the creative force or God or whatever you want to call it a personality. They claim to know God and his/her/it's likes and dislikes, it's plans for us etc.

Outside of the Bible I find no evidence for the Christian God and that's concerning considering he supposedly wants a relationship with me.

Hi again,

I am not going to preach to you, maybe later, but here is another light-hearted story, actually it is fact if you give it some thought, so here we go....

You are a winner!

Not sure if you have children, but my wife and I had 3. And they are totally different. How can that be, they got the same upbringing (education) and yet from baby on they were different. What happened in your case?

2 people you never heard of, likely your father and mother (without asking for your permission) had sex and there you were. During the act on average 100 million sperm cells were released all rushing to the mother womb to be first, and you (of all) made it as first one, else you never would have existed, you from the 100 million were given life, you are a winner!

 

[Mancunian]

A hearty amen to that sister .
LET US POINT TO CHRIST JESUS .
For in HE ALONE is salvation . And what must i do sirs to be saved .
BELIEVE YE ON JESUS THE CHRIST . Salvation is not by faith in amigo or what i say
Salvation darn sure does not come by the all inclusive god who is satan either .
AND JESUS WIL LGET THE GLORY , FOR GOD will have the GLORY .
And to deny HIM , HIS GOSPEL , to call GOD A LIAR like incluisivitiy does , DOES NOT HONOR GOD
DOES NOT HONOR THE SON . it simply calls HIM A LIAR . For my preaching of the dire need to believe ON JESUS
ol epi called me AN EXTREMIST . kinda odd dont ya thin k. JESUS said the same , and all the apostels said the same .
SOON our betrayal will come sister . we will be seen as nothing more than extremists and a danger to satans world peace,
ONLY they will think its GODS world peace plan .

Where am I heading in your opinion?
Your user name at a guess roughly translates to 'Friend of Jesus' ....
Since you're a friend of Jesus,
Where would Jesus say I'm heading?
Gehenna, the word that Jesus used, again roughly translates to a valley where rubbish was burned.

I'm also guessing that you think that the rubbish burns forever?

 

[Mancunian]

Hi again,

I am not going to preach to you, maybe later, but here is another light-hearted story, actually it is fact if you give it some thought, so here we go....

You are a winner!

Not sure if you have children, but my wife and I had 3. And they are totally different. How can that be, they got the same upbringing (education) and yet from baby on they were different. What happened in your case?

2 people you never heard of, likely your father and mother (without asking for your permission) had sex and there you were. During the act on average 100 million sperm cells were released all rushing to the mother womb to be first, and you (of all) made it as first one, else you never would have existed, you from the 100 million were given life, you are a winner!

I have four children... All grown up now, the youngest is 18...

Yes it's very random that 'against' the odds that I exist.
I wouldn't call myself a winner though, and I can think of many people in certain circumstances that definitely wouldn't.
I'm lucky to have had reasonable health apart from the last year, but there are people who spend their lives in pain.
There are people who's quality of life isn't great, I doubt that they would call their selves winners.
I'm thinking of children in the third world who are faced with poverty exploitation disease and in some cases starvation.

 

[NayborBear]

Do you think that I just haven't bothered to try?
I used to pray, I've asked for signs, I attended church....
In the end it just felt like talking to myself, I got the feeling that it was me that was the problem, I was doing something wrong... Not getting anywhere because of me not God.

You are correct, I've read the Bible and do find it confusing and contradictory, that's partly why I can't subscribe to Christianity any more.
Being on this forum has reinforced that, when I see all the different opinions of Christians themselves, in fighting about certain beliefs, and sometimes chasms between those opinions.

And that's just Christiansity....
When I look at other world religions, they all make different claims, there's in fighting between various sects and no clear general consensus about what God is/wants.

I'm of the opinion that there probably was a creative power, whether that power is interventional or never has been is debatable.
I've never sensed it personally so until I do, I'll take it that it doesn't exist anymore or is not interested in it's creation.

Well? If you grew up in the church for more than several years? You may have also been baptized?
If the case is you were? Perhaps, as in my case? After several years you may have heard a voice in your head asking: "Are you ready yet?"
My answer at the time was no. And this happened more then several times over the course of a decade or 3. Each time answering Nope! Not yet! As I had been ridiculed or mocked at and made fun of as being raised in a closet by (how can I say) people of "the world" I guess is a good way to say it. As not only my Mom and Dad went to church religiously. But, My Mom's Mom And Dad went to church religiously. And my Dad's Mom and Dad did the same. And all their children from BOTH sides did the same! And they/we would get together fairly often.
(As a side note my Dad's Mom's Dad (great grampa) was a "circuit Preacher" (and a mason I found out YEARS later) A circuit Preacher doesn't have what would be considered a "home" church per se. As he would preach at one church one week where he'd stay with someone or a couple someone's homes for or until it was time to head to the next church on his route.)
Anyways (sorry for the digression).
At the time I was very curious about just WHAT these "worldly schoolmates" meant by being raised in a closet.
Took me over 30 years to get over that!
But? I now KNOW what being raised in a closet means!
Quit smokin pot and drinking beer and Seagram's VO when my mind raised the "feasibility issue" with my body as to "Why party like a weekend warrior and then spend Monday through Wednesday recovering?" Didn't make no sense!

Guess what I'm tryin to say, aside from givin a short autobiography. Is SOMETIMES the "seed of truth" that gets planted takes time to germinate!One may even refer this to certain types of evergreens whose pine cones DON'T germinate until after a forest fire. The heat of the fire is what causes that seed to germinate.

Somewhat like you I guess, there was a time during those 2 er 3 decades I didn't believe in the Christian God of the Bible.
Plus? I had a very HARD time believing Jesus Christ of Nazareth was born from a virgin.

ALL these things plus more, has me at this very time even not having very much regard nor respect for, or in, "figures of authority."
ESPECIALLY governmental and religious authority.
I won't call a Dr. Dr. I call him by his name....NOT his, or whoever, or whatever one's "title" may be!

"And if I EVER have a son?"
"I'm a gonna name him BILL OR GEORGE OR TOM!"
"ANYTHING, but Sue!"
(I STILL HATE that name!)
Sorry for the long post!

(Oh yes! I have more then a coupla peeps on ignore)

 

[Rockerduck]

Where am I heading in your opinion?
Your user name at a guess roughly translates to 'Friend of Jesus' ....
Since you're a friend of Jesus,
Where would Jesus say I'm heading?
Gehenna, the word that Jesus used, again roughly translates to a valley where rubbish was burned.

I'm also guessing that you think that the rubbish burns forever?

I can answer that. I've not been in Hell but I've seen it. I asked Jesus to show me without being there, but to see it, so that I could testify about it. It is a black planet like place that fire comes out of crevices. The worst part is the loss of all hope, nothing but memories of you life of sin. Everyone in Hell knows they deserve it, because everything you say, do, or think is recorded in Heaven. You actually convict yourself.
In this life you have in you a sense of God built in you. Common Grace is around you. This is why many join cults seeking to satisfy this need for God in their lives, but do not know how to find Him. You can get hungry is this life, or want a new car, or anything and have hope and enjoy time with family, that only God gives you, but all that goes away. You have no God feeling inside you anymore, no hope. You feel the heat and can't sweat, you can't get relief from it. Basically, you are in constant torment. This is forever, or until the lake of fire. Yes, this is real.

Now if all this is true, why would you even consider this fate, when Heaven awaits. Heaven is pure love all the time, and there is no pride in anyone. The eye hasn't seen or the ear heard what God has prepared for us.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Mancunian, by logic alone you admit creation did not appear on its own but "someone or something" using your expressions did create order and life. Then, the next step therefore is to seek out with intent of finding out why we are here and you will have your answer.

 

[amigo de christo]

Where am I heading in your opinion?
Your user name at a guess roughly translates to 'Friend of Jesus' ....
Since you're a friend of Jesus,
Where would Jesus say I'm heading?
Gehenna, the word that Jesus used, again roughly translates to a valley where rubbish was burned.

I'm also guessing that you think that the rubbish burns forever?

You are in dire grave danger . And where would the love of GOD be in me , IF I DIDNT POINT
you To CHRIST JESUS . SEEING GOD does not desire the death of any but rather their repentance .
So too do i desire Not your death but rather that you have eternal life .
And that is FOUND ONLY in JESUS CHRIST . sadly more and more even in christendom
no longer even Beleive its necessary to BELIEVE on JESUS . But for years they often did use His name
to do evil . So no suprise they too now buy the lie . When all do stand before HIM
on judgment day , many will wail and perhaps the worst thought in their minds will be ,
WHY did i just keep rejecting CHRIST when all i had to do WAS BELEIVE .
Regret will flood upon many but on that day it will be too late .
God has always desired good for humanity , but humanity often desires not what is GOOD for them .
And i can easily tell you why that is . Because i myself was once just as guilty of it .
REmember where JESUS said the only condemnation one has is that they will NOT come to the LIGHT ,
lest their d eeds be exposed , reproved . I too once jus wanted to live in sin
having all the cares and pleasures in this life . My oh my how lost i truly was indeed .
And this is of ten why we also see
IN CHURCHES the creation of another jesus . The jesus that while it promises salvation
ALSO GIVES THEM the evil desires of their sinful heart . LIKE the love of money
or whatever other sin it was they loved . But that AINT JESUS and thus it cannot save them .

 

[amigo de christo]

Mancunian, by logic alone you admit creation did not appear on its own but "someone or something" using your expressions did so, then, the next step is therefore to seek out with intent of finding out why we are here and you will have your answer.

At most and at best the carnal mind by its logic and its reasoning
can come to a conclusion of perhaps their is A GOD , but never will it know THE ONLY WAY TO GOD .
So lets finish this statment my friend .
While its true the proof of God of a creator can easily be seen in his creation ,
What is truly in dire necessity to know is , THE ONLY WAY TO THIS HOLY GOD who did create all .
And allow me to with GREAT JOY speak , or in this case TYPE that lovely NAME . IT BE JESUS the CHRIST of GOD
and only NAME whereby one may be saved . And to be saved , ONE MUST BELEIVE on HIM . Beleiving ALL things
HE did teach , beleiving the prophets and even torah that POINTED TO THIS SAVOIR CHRIST JESUS .
Who would come to REDEEM fallen man trapped under the death, death that man brought unto himself in that garden .
SO that all who do beleive WOULD not perish but have EVERLASTING LIFE . SING It to the choir
and to the heavens and unto this entire world , THAT JESUS IS THIS CHRIST
and if any desires LIFE , if any desires to be set free from death , IF any desires
salvation , BELEIVE YE ON HIM . Now to the trenches my friend . For this hour is very late .

 

[amigo de christo]

Mancunian, by logic alone you admit creation did not appear on its own but "someone or something" using your expressions did so, then, the next step is therefore to seek out with intent of finding out why we are here and you will have your answer.

How often GOD did desire GOOD for humanity
only man did not desire what was GOOD for him but rather loved and embraced his sin .
NOw how about a huge and mighty praise and thanksgiving fest unto THE GOD and oNLY GOD
of our LORD and SAVOIR JESUS CHRIST , who in JESUS we have been given life and been freed from death .
And now by HIS SPIRIT we can live and walk pleasing unto God BY FAITH . TO the trenches my friend
the hour is late and many are fast to replace the one true gospel of THIS CHRIST OF GOD in favor
of the love of a harlot whose love is only death and shall lead them all unto the second death .

 

[LoveYeshua]

At most and at best the carnal mind by its logic and its reasoning
can come to a conclusion of perhaps their is A GOD , but never will it know THE ONLY WAY TO GOD .
So lets finish this statment my friend .
While its true the proof of God of a creator can easily be seen in his creation ,
What is truly in dire necessity to know is , THE ONLY WAY TO THIS HOLY GOD who did create all .
And allow me to with GREAT JOY speak , or in this case TYPE that lovely NAME . IT BE JESUS the CHRIST of GOD
and only NAME whereby one may be saved . And to be saved , ONE MUST BELEIVE on HIM . Beleiving ALL things
HE did teach , beleiving the prophets and even torah that POINTED TO THIS SAVOIR CHRIST JESUS .
Who would come to REDEEM fallen man trapped under the death, death that man brought unto himself in that garden .
SO that all who do beleive WOULD not perish but have EVERLASTING LIFE . SING It to the choir
and to the heavens and unto this entire world , THAT JESUS IS THIS CHRIST
and if any desires LIFE , if any desires to be set free from death , IF any desires
salvation , BELEIVE YE ON HIM . Now to the trenches my friend . For this hour is very late .

when I was searching for an answer in my youth about life and God and the meaning of life it is the Words of Christ that gave me life, it is not everyone that will find this truth but the Father that guides us to this truth if it is His will, However I always kept an opened mind and reading about the diverse religions of this world, I could easily eliminate them one by one, took years and the last one remained, the bible and in the new testament then I saw the truth of it. it is also written that :
“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.” (John 6:44) and I do believe that. I also know God chooses and looks at the heart. Our friend here is looking into it of he would not be on this forum but will he believe? only God knows.

John 6:65

“Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

 

[amigo de christo]

when I was searching for an answer in my youth about life and God and the meaning of life it is the Words of Christ that gave me life, it is not everyone that will find this truth but the Father that guides us to this truth if it is His will, Howvert I always kept an opened mind and reading about the diverse religions of this world, I could easily eliminate them one by one, took years and the last one remained, the bible and the new testament and then I saw the truth of it. it is also written that :
“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.” (John 6:44) and I do believe that. I also know God chooses and looks at the heart. Our friend here is looking into it of he would not be on this forum but will he believe? only God knows.

John 6:65

Since the beginning of my own walk by Faith in CHRIST by the grace of GOD .,,
HE put me into ONE BOOK . The BIBLE . any guesses as to WHY HE would do that .
What is the eaisest way to discern a counterfiet bill .
IS it to study all the counterfiets , OF WHICH are many and always changing to adapt ,
OR is it TO LEARN an dcontinue to learn and continue to learn FROM HE WHO IS THE TRUTH .
You can easily discern the counterfeit , IF YOU KNOW the REAL .
And oh yeah HE will g ive us a mouth to speak unto any . FOR GOD knows far well and far better than we
ON WHAT TO SAY and what TO SPEAK . DO be encouraged my friend . And line them walls
and stand in the trenches . Cause the hour is far far later than what many now realize it to be...................