Conversation with An Atheist

[ProDeo]

People tell me that the Bible is the word of God.
Just for info, I've started at the beginning again.... I've ignored the genocide and got to the temptation of Abraham.
It's always played on my mind that a God that is capable of creating a universe needed validation from Abraham.
How his bloodline benefited from his blessing and how the story repeated later with a blind father choosing which son was favourable.
Kind of reminds me of Cain and Abel....

The themes in the Bible say more about the authors than God...
I'm nearly at Exodus, I'll update you when I've read it.

Re-hi,

The story of Abraham was written at least 500 BC, maybe even earlier. Keep that in mind. And notice the similarities Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac and 2000 years later God (the Father) to sacrifice Jesus (the Son) in order to take away the sins of the whole world, you, me and everybody else.

1. Isaac (the son) was the long awaited promised son of Abraham (the father), like Jesus was the promised Messiah (the Son).

2. Isaac (the son) was born supernaturally as Sara (the wife of Abraham) was too old to conceive and yet she conceived. Jesus was also born supernaturally, Mary got pregnant from the Holy Spirit.

3. God told Abraham to travel to a certain place called mountain Moria, he and Isaac had to travel 3 days to arrive there. Mount Moria at that time (2000 BC) was the early settlements of what later became Jerusalem as a vibrant city.

4. And Jerusalem, 2000 years later, is the place were God (the Father) sacrificed Jesus (the Son) in order to take away the sins of the whole world, you, me and everybody else.

5. When Abraham (the father) and Isaac (the son) climbed mount Moria, Isaac (the son) had to carry the wood needed on the alter that was going to kill him. Jesus (the Son) had to carry the wooden cross al the way to Golgotha and contrary to Isaac it did kill Jesus.

6. As you probably know God withheld Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, God did not withheld the Romans who killed Jesus.

So the whole story is a prophecy of the most important story in the history of mankind, 2000 years later, Jesus the Savior of world Who took away the sins of the whole world, you, me and everybody else.

Happened 2000 BC, orally told from generation to generation and written down 500 BC or earlier.

 

[Mancunian]

I've been looking into the story of Mary.
She was a child between 12 and 15 years of age.
This alone tells me that the biblical account of Jesus' mother is of the time and was written by men of the time.

The more that I read the Bible, the more it correlates with the time that it was written. The men of the time were super superstitious (pardon the expression) and that comes through strongly.

I've only got to the midway point of Leviticus and I can't square anything that I've read up to now with reality.
How am I supposed to believe that people lived to nearly 1000 years of age? It flies in the face of everything that we know about the life expectancy of humans in that era.

The account of creation in Genesis directly contradicts science and everything that we know to be true.
Then we get to original sin...
We know that according to Genesis Adam was created by the hand of God and Eve was taken from Adam.... God placed them in a garden and knowingly put temptation right in front of them.... Not only that, God allowed the serpent to be there for some unknown reason.
Is it really the fault of two innocent people who knew nothing or is the outcome the fault of God?
I know who my money's on.

Anyway... Then we get the story of Cain and Abel, a story that is mirrored later in Genesis....There are recurring themes, themes that are obviously important to the authors. It's a minefield of jumbled messages.

Unfortunately Exodus continues the theme...
It's not easy reading.

 

[Fathom]

I never stop thinking.

Brother, read genesis 6:1-7 again.

Ask yourself - How will God remove human natural predatory instincts?

and yes God regretted creating mankind.

This is why It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God, and the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

 

[ScottA]

I've been looking into the story of Mary.
She was a child between 12 and 15 years of age.
This alone tells me that the biblical account of Jesus' mother is of the time and was written by men of the time.

The more that I read the Bible, the more it correlates with the time that it was written. The men of the time were super superstitious (pardon the expression) and that comes through strongly.

I've only got to the midway point of Leviticus and I can't square anything that I've read up to now with reality.
How am I supposed to believe that people lived to nearly 1000 years of age? It flies in the face of everything that we know about the life expectancy of humans in that era.

The account of creation in Genesis directly contradicts science and everything that we know to be true.
Then we get to original sin...
We know that according to Genesis Adam was created by the hand of God and Eve was taken from Adam.... God placed them in a garden and knowingly put temptation right in front of them.... Not only that, God allowed the serpent to be there for some unknown reason.
Is it really the fault of two innocent people who knew nothing or is the outcome the fault of God?
I know who my money's on.

Anyway... Then we get the story of Cain and Abel, a story that is mirrored later in Genesis....There are recurring themes, themes that are obviously important to the authors. It's a minefield of jumbled messages.

Unfortunately Exodus continues the theme...
It's not easy reading.

When I first read the Bible, I read it from cover to cover in a week, and I'm slow. Maybe your approach is just too part time.

As for things like people living nearly a thousand years--we're talking about God--anything is possible. But you should also notice repetitions of things, things that are repeated like a parent repeats things to their children--because they're children and just learning about things they are just finding out about. Quite literally, every day of the first seven days of creation--is a lesson--actually a roadmap and a prophecy of everything to follow.

And if you haven't noticed, many things are spoken of in parable or likeness, even us made in the "image" of God--it's a picture that He is showing us. Have you not looked in a mirror and thought about it? Why is there two of everything...well, except head...and a few other things. It's all imagery, and stories--real life stories--showing things, explaining things...to teach us.

But if you reject the very idea or premise--what have you learned from everything around you that was and is a cosmic unlimited set of encyclopedias, and so much more? Many aren't even paying attention. Ever had a class like that? Most of us have. Mine was math. I doodled and daydreamed a lot--didn't learn much, until I got out of school and had to learn or lose opportunities. For some, it's Bible class...if you even get into it. But that is how opportunities are lost. Life is like that.

 

[ScottA]

It's always played on my mind that a God that is capable of creating a universe needed validation from Abraham.

Unbeknownst to most...God didn't create this universe, this existence, as we think of creating something. The whole reason there is a book involved and "it is written" is such a theme--is because that better describes what He has done. It's like He wrote a book of what "was" in Him, then made it manifest...and this is us reading, or being read to. And when the last of what is written comes to pass, He's just going to slam it closed (with the voice of an archangel)--BAM! And things will be as they were written (or were) "before the foundation of the world"...after everyone chooses based on what they are at their core--forever.

 

[Wrangler]

It's not for the want of trying. I'm doing everything that I can to try and understand.

Repeating The Original Sin. Stop trying to understand! Start trying to submit. In fact don’t try. There is no try! Do or do not!

Do not lean on your own understanding, Take your next step in faith. And then the next one. And the next one, etc.

 

[Lizbeth]

I've been looking into the story of Mary.
She was a child between 12 and 15 years of age.
This alone tells me that the biblical account of Jesus' mother is of the time and was written by men of the time.

The more that I read the Bible, the more it correlates with the time that it was written. The men of the time were super superstitious (pardon the expression) and that comes through strongly.

I've only got to the midway point of Leviticus and I can't square anything that I've read up to now with reality.
How am I supposed to believe that people lived to nearly 1000 years of age? It flies in the face of everything that we know about the life expectancy of humans in that era.

The account of creation in Genesis directly contradicts science and everything that we know to be true.
Then we get to original sin...
We know that according to Genesis Adam was created by the hand of God and Eve was taken from Adam.... God placed them in a garden and knowingly put temptation right in front of them.... Not only that, God allowed the serpent to be there for some unknown reason.
Is it really the fault of two innocent people who knew nothing or is the outcome the fault of God?
I know who my money's on.

Anyway... Then we get the story of Cain and Abel, a story that is mirrored later in Genesis....There are recurring themes, themes that are obviously important to the authors. It's a minefield of jumbled messages.

Unfortunately Exodus continues the theme...
It's not easy reading.

All of which proves we need the Lord to give us light/understanding. But I have heard of a few bright people who in trying to disprove Christianity, came to the opposite conclusion....why not read some of their testimonies and reasoning? ( I can't remember any of their names unfortunately, but maybe you could do a Google search for them....?

 

[Mancunian]

All of which proves we need the Lord to give us light/understanding. But I have heard of a few bright people who in trying to disprove Christianity, came to the opposite conclusion....why not read some of their testimonies and reasoning? ( I can't remember any of their names unfortunately, but maybe you could do a Google search for them....?

Lee Strobel?

 

[Lizbeth]

Lee Strobel?

That name is familiar, but I can't remember in connection with what.

 

[Mancunian]

That name is familiar, but I can't remember in connection with what.

He was an Investigative journalist that became an author. I think that one of his books has been mentioned on this forum.

 

[Mancunian]

Repeating The Original Sin. Stop trying to understand! Start trying to submit. In fact don’t try. There is no try! Do or do not!

Do not lean on your own understanding, Take your next step in faith. And then the next one. And the next one, etc.

Am I to stop reading the Bible?
I'm all the way through Leviticus.... I've learned a lot about burnt offerings and what is seen as sexual misconduct.
There are direct commands to Moses about how the Israelites should punish such misconduct.
Again, not comfortable reading.

I might well be my brain but I can't help thinking that the God of the Old Testament sounds extremely regional, not the genius who put together the laws of physics mathematics and coded our DNA.

As you know I have no problem accepting that a creator could be responsible for everything that we see, but three books into the Bible and I wouldn't put money on it being the God as described therein.
People tell me that you need to look at the Bible as a whole and that's what I'm doing, the first three books don't get me any closer to finding out about the creator of the universe. In fact all that I've read up to now points towards a primitive belief based upon a God that cares about clean and unclean animals, the length of your hair and suchlike.
Difficult for me to look at the night sky in all it's wonder and imagine that the God that I'm reading about was in any way involved.

 

[Lizbeth]

Am I to stop reading the Bible?
I'm all the way through Leviticus.... I've learned a lot about burnt offerings and what is seen as sexual misconduct.
There are direct commands to Moses about how the Israelites should punish such misconduct.
Again, not comfortable reading.

I might well be my brain but I can't help thinking that the God of the Old Testament sounds extremely regional, not the genius who put together the laws of physics mathematics and coded our DNA.

As you know I have no problem accepting that a creator could be responsible for everything that we see, but three books into the Bible and I wouldn't put money on it being the God as described therein.
People tell me that you need to look at the Bible as a whole and that's what I'm doing, the first three books don't get me any closer to finding out about the creator of the universe. In fact all that I've read up to now points towards a primitive belief based upon a God that cares about clean and unclean animals, the length of your hair and suchlike.
Difficult for me to look at the night sky in all it's wonder and imagine that the God that I'm reading about was in any way involved.

The Law was "added because of transgression".....because they were sinful and sinning, it was meant to train and discipline the Israelites, to show them what sin is, and to teach them that sin comes with dire consequences, that it leads to death........in order that they would then know their sinfulness and seek salvation. "By the Law is knowledge of sin." That is why the bible says the Law was their tutor, to lead them to and prepare them for the Saviour, or at least some of them. It was like the first stage of the plan of salvation.

And if you understand how unrestrainedly dark and sinful the pagan world was you would see how the Law was actually a beautiful light in all that ugly arkness..........it was a picture of purity and righteousness that brought peace and blessings when it was obeyed, in the midst of a world mired in the filth of horrendous sins that brought awful curses and judgments of their own. Deceived people mired in sin and captives of Satan can't imagine anything else, can't conceive of a different and better way of life.......they had to be shown.

 

[Episkopos]

Am I to stop reading the Bible?
I'm all the way through Leviticus.... I've learned a lot about burnt offerings and what is seen as sexual misconduct.
There are direct commands to Moses about how the Israelites should punish such misconduct.
Again, not comfortable reading.

I might well be my brain but I can't help thinking that the God of the Old Testament sounds extremely regional, not the genius who put together the laws of physics mathematics and coded our DNA.

As you know I have no problem accepting that a creator could be responsible for everything that we see, but three books into the Bible and I wouldn't put money on it being the God as described therein.
People tell me that you need to look at the Bible as a whole and that's what I'm doing, the first three books don't get me any closer to finding out about the creator of the universe. In fact all that I've read up to now points towards a primitive belief based upon a God that cares about clean and unclean animals, the length of your hair and suchlike.
Difficult for me to look at the night sky in all it's wonder and imagine that the God that I'm reading about was in any way involved.

Unless you are looking to convert to Judaism, you won't understand the context of the revelation hidden in the Old Testament unless you begin with the New Testament, starting at the gospels.

It is said that the New Testament is in the Old Testament concealed, and that the Old Testament is in the New Testament revealed.

However, if you continue to read through the whole bible, you will soon reach the book of DEUTERONOMY. That means "second law". A lot of the mystery revealed in the New Testament is hidden in it. It is based on a higher law...whereby God gets personally involved in helping us fulfill His laws. Let me know if and when you get there and I will show you a few revealed mysteries.

 

[Wrangler]

Am I to stop reading the Bible?

No. By all means, keep reading the Bible. Odd that you would take my post to submit to mean to stop reading. Submit in your reading.

I'm all the way through Leviticus.... I've learned a lot about burnt offerings and what is seen as sexual misconduct.
There are direct commands to Moses about how the Israelites should punish such misconduct.
Again, not comfortable reading.

Why is this reading not comfortable? Did you expect having your sins exposed to be comfortable?

The arrogance comes through loud and clear in this post. This is God's creation, where it is his way or the high way. When he sets the rule of sexual misconduct, don't diminish that as a POV, equal to any and all others. (You can't get anything out of the book unless you have a smidgeon of humility.)

Our society is feminized, which means among other things, that sin, including sexual misconduct, shouldn't have much consequence. Our masculine God is not too "understanding" of sin. (Feminine code for escaping negative consequence, shifting burden from the sinner to the community). "Everyone should feel safe and comfortable all the time," is a highly feminine mindset. God is the ultimate masculine and there are things we ought not feel safe and comfortable about, Our sin chief among them!

I might well be my brain but I can't help thinking that the God of the Old Testament sounds extremely regional, not the genius who put together the laws of physics mathematics and coded our DNA.

The Bible is written for us but not TO us; it was written TO a regional people at a different time, language and culture. When God said, "let there be light and there was light," the scope of this was to establish the works of the Creator of the Universe, not a comprehensive scientific handbook of how it was done. In other words, the laws of physics, mathematics and DNA is beyond the scope of the narrative. (And I'm sure you know this). By having these false expectation, you set yourself up to fail.

Let me tell you a story about a small church group I joined a few years ago on parenting adult children. One woman joined the group under false pretenses. She didn't want a relationship with her son - and came right out and said that one class. Instead, she expected the class to cater to her wanting to constantly bash him and present herself as victim or martyr. And she felt entitled to try to "get me" to tell my story her way.

I would tell a story including 'my wife.' She didn't like this. She preferred that I use my wife's name. She was the only one in the class to interrupt me to "get me" to tell my story her way and she did this constantly. Obviously, this woman has a lot of control issues. I'm sure you agree.

As you know I have no problem accepting that a creator could be responsible for everything that we see, but three books into the Bible and I wouldn't put money on it being the God as described therein.

This proves you are reading through the filter of your own expectations rather than read it properly. I joined a Bible study after reading the Bible daily for only 5 months. Several in the class were amazed at my understanding even though they've read the Bible for decades and asked me how I understood the Bible so well.

I told them before I read my chosen translation, CEV, I read the introduction by the translators, which included how to get the most out of this translation. Before reading pray to God that you understand what you're about to read and how to apply it to your life today. Simple but effective. It helped me and I'm sure it will help you also IF, you keep in mind and heart, Jeremiah 29:13
When you search for me, you will find me; if you seek me with all your heart

Currently, you are violating God's word as you are reading it, not seeking him with all your heart but demanding he submit to your will, meet your expectations. This is not the qualities of a soul ready to meet his maker. Ergo, it remains an unfathomable mystery, forever failing to meet your expectations. I suggest you get out of the Judgement seat. Reserve that for your God.

 

[amigo de christo]

I agree with this decision. We have freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion.

yet what IF i told you mr wrangler that its through this guise
that it will ONLY APPLY to the all inclusive . NOT to those who maintain FAITH IN ONLY JESUS .
What would you do taken if i told
you that gays would be protected , mulisms , false christains , THE INCLUSIVE ones ,
but any that does expose the errors of the false , WILL NOT be protected wrangler but WILL BE PERSECUTED .
THAT is exactly what is happening and what will soon c ome upon this entire world .
And man was it sold to us all as false love , as tolerance , as a means to attain world peace n safety .
The problem is many have FAR TOO MUCH fear so they run to anything that sounds remotely good .
ME , I R UN TO GOD , TO HIS CHRIST and i understand we will be persecuted .
And i dont run to an ecumeincal harlot and that which is of anti christ FOR MY PROTECTION , peace n safety .
ALL OF IT is a snare wrangler .
AND believe me its gonna merge them as one and all will believe it to be the peace plan of God .
WHEN all it ever was , was of satan , of his harlot of that which is of anti christ .
A Lying spirit sent to all false religoins and to christendom for to buy a lie that all will beleive
IS the way to peace n safety .
When all it was, IS the road to their own sudden destruction ON THE DAY OF THE LORD
and by THIS VERY LORD JESUS that their love and their peace DENIED . Gospel got denied wrangler .
THE GOSPEL GOT DENIED . And you all expect ME to link arms with that . NEVER .

 

[amigo de christo]

Unless you are looking to convert to Judaism, you won't understand the context of the revelation hidden in the Old Testament unless you begin with the New Testament, starting at the gospels.

It is said that the New Testament is in the Old Testament concealed, and that the Old Testament is in the New Testament revealed.

However, if you continue to read through the whole bible, you will soon reach the book of DEUTERONOMY. That means "second law". A lot of the mystery revealed in the New Testament is hidden in it. It is based on a higher law...whereby God gets personally involved in helping us fulfill His laws. Let me know if and when you get there and I will show you a few revealed mysteries.

he better be looking to JESUS epi .
as usual you always allow UNBELEIF to remain upon this people .

 

[Episkopos]

he better be looking to JESUS epi .
as usual you always allow UNBELEIF to remain upon this people .

I actually call out your unbelief all the time. That and your incoherence and inability to say anything in context.

 

[ProDeo]

The account of creation in Genesis directly contradicts science and everything that we know to be true.

Only this...

Read Genesis chapter one and compare the order of creation (from a world fully covered with water all the way to humans) what science teaches is the very same order.

How could someone living ~3500 years ago knowing what science believes just ~100-150 year ago ?

 

[amigo de christo]

Only this...

Read Genesis chapter one and compare the order of creation (from a world fully covered with water all the way to humans) what science teaches is the very same.

How could someone living ~3500 years ago knowing what science believes just ~100-150 year ago ?

yeah . and how on earth
could what JOHN saw and later wrote about in revelation
ALSO b e so crystal clear NOW nearly two thousand years later .
HELLO AI image speaking digital system . And AI is capable of routing any name
to a data base that it sees typing anything or even speaking over a phone. And to a police station .
Who can come to the house of said person and lead them away to dententioon camps . IN effect causing
all who would not worship the beast to be killed . AND NOT ONLY that .
WHAT DOES AI control . THE DIGITIAL SYSTEM . and what does the digital system do .
IT CAN SHUT ANYONE OUT making them unable to buy or sell .
TALK about A prophecy nearly two thousand years old , NOW COMING INTO PLAIN SIGHT .

 

[Episkopos]

yeah . and how on earth
could what JOHN saw and later wrote about in revelation
ALSO b e so crystal clear NOW nearly two thousand years later .
HELLO AI image speaking digital system . And AI is capable of routing any name
to a data base that it sees typing anything or even speaking over a phone. And to a police station .
Who can come to the house of said person and lead them away to dententioon camps . IN effect causing
all who would not worship the beast to be killed . AND NOT ONLY that .
WHAT DOES AI control . THE DIGITIAL SYSTEM . and what does the digital system do .
IT CAN SHUT ANYONE OUT making them unable to buy or sell .
TALK about A prophecy nearly two thousand years old , NOW COMING INTO PLAIN SIGHT .

You never once stated the dire need to first believe on Jesus. No mention at all. Where is your priority? What is going on....are you turning to reasoning now...thinking even?

You are slipping and being hypocritical no? You want others to do what you say...but you are not doing it yourself.

So then get back to your trench where you live and call out the people to believe on Jesus.