Conversation with An Atheist

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Wrangler

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The resurrection of jesus wasn't documented until at least 30 years later... John was nearly a century later.

I know relying on a strong oral tradition goes against our way of thinking today to record with 30 pics going to the restroom at a restaurant.

Consider how many centuries The Illiad was preserved by oral tradition before being put in written form? It goes to show the way ancient man passed knowledge from generation to generation.

Also, keep in mind there is 8x more written about the resurrection of Jesus than even the existence of Julius Caesar, more than any other ancient event.
 

CrowCross

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The ark supposedly came to rest on Mt Ararat?
Yes. Reports are coming back positive that it has been located. GPR, ERT, LiDAR, core drilling, dirt samples, ark dimensions have all been used scientifically to identify the ark. The anomaly at the Durupinar site has been determined not to be a natural formation.
3 levels have been discovered as well as right angels and a center hallway. More info here.
The flood waters covered the highest mountains on earth, I'm assuming though that the flood waters would have been a diluted saltwater... Rain is freshwater and so are underground springs.
Mountains such as Mt Ararat were not present at the beginning of the flood. Around the time of the end of the flood the continents shifted, slid, moved and formed the mountains of the world. Geologist can look at features such as recumbent folds in the rock strata and have determined that the folds formed rapidly while the sediment was still somewhat plastic.
Psalms 104 describes this...
5He set the earth on its foundations,
so that it should never be moved.
6You covered it with the deep as with a garment;
the waters stood above the mountains.
7At your rebuke they fled;
at the sound of your thunder they took to flight.
8The mountains rose, the valleys sank down
to the place that you appointed for them.
9You set a boundary that they may not pass,
so that they might not again cover the earth.
A pretty toxic mix for fish, but that's another topic....
Perhaps, but you brought it up so here is an answer...

1. Fish can gradually become accustomed to a wide range of ambient salinities.
2. Some fish are an Euryhaline organism. They can live in both saltwater
(SW) and freshwater (FW). For example, the Cichlid fish Tilapia grahami is
found in SW but can maintain itself in FW.
Note: FW has 0 ppt (parts per thousand) of salinity and SW can be as high
as 35ppt of salinity. Most fish can tolerate a large range of this
salinity.
3. As the temperature of water increases a brackish water fish can live in
levels of almost no salinity. This could have occurred near a volcano.
4. Different individuals within the same species can have different salt
tolerances. This would have allowed the fish with the correct tolerance
to survive.
5. Antediluvian fish could have been more tolerant of saltwater that the
fishes of today. Micro evolutionary in salt tolerances could have changed
in the few thousand years since the flood.
6. Antediluvian seas were probably less saltier than todays seas.
A. Today = 35ppt of salt.
B. Prior to the flood the seas were about 20ppt of salt. The waters on
earth were 50% fresh and 50% salt. Unlike today where only a very small
fraction is fresh water.
During the flood if a complete mixture occurred the waters would be about
10ppt of salt. In reality you probably had a range of appr. 5-15 ppt of
salt.
7. The layers of FW to SW would have stratified in certain areas of the
globe. The fish could move up or down to adjust itself to the salt level.
8. During the flood sheltered cracks could have formed separating the
hi-saline water from the less saltier walter. This could have provided
protection for the fish and its fauna.
9. Only two of millions/billions?, a male and female of the same class
needed to survive the flood in order to repopulate the waters.

As you see all or some of the above if applied could have kept the classes
of fish alive during the Flood of Noah.
The earth would have been in ruins after a global flood.
Yes it was. That was the purpose.
Noah's family would definitely have been starved to death when back on 'dry land' if any of this was remotely true.
I would think they still had some food left over from the storage bins on the ark to carry them through for a while.
I would think the chickens and such were laying eggs...cows, goats gave milk and so on. So, no, I don't think they would have starved to death. Perhaps you could develop your narrative more to show your statement would be true.

Is there anything else you would like to address about Noahs flood or the ark?
 
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CrowCross

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The main reason that I don't believe in the Christian God is that the gospels don't agree with eachother.
This is the most important part of the holy Bible. This part must be coherent and all of the gospels must agree.
The crucifixion and resurrection of jesus must be the most important event ever witnessed by mankind, the son of God, here to pay for our sins.
Why don't the accounts of Matthew Mark Luke and John match perfectly regardless of the time between the accounts?
If you want to, we can make a separate thread for the contradictory gospels.
Perhaps you could present an example rather than simply making an unsupported claim.
 

Mancunian

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Perhaps you could present an example rather than simply making an unsupported claim.
Empty tomb bible contradiction.

The four Gospel accounts of the empty tomb contain several notable discrepancies in their details, which critics view as contradictions and apologists view as complementary perspectives.

Key Discrepancies in the Accounts
• Who went to the tomb: Mark mentions Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome (Mark 16:1). Matthew lists Mary Magdalene and "the other Mary" (Matthew 28:1). Luke mentions Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and others (Luke 24:10). John explicitly names only Mary Magdalene, though she uses the plural pronoun "we," implying others were with her (John 20:1–2).
• The state of the stone: Matthew describes an earthquake and an angel descending to roll away the stone while the women watched or upon their arrival (Matthew 28:2). In contrast, Mark, Luke, and John state that the stone was already rolled away when the women arrived.

• Who was at the tomb: Mark mentions a young man sitting on the right side inside the tomb (Mark 16:5). Matthew describes an angel sitting on the rolled-away stone outside (Matthew 28:2). Luke mentions two men in dazzling clothes standing beside them inside (Luke 24:4). John describes Mary looking in later and seeing two angels in white sitting where the body had lain (John 20:11–12).

• What the women did afterward: Mark states the women fled the tomb and "said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid" (Mark 16:8). Matthew, Luke, and John all record that the women immediately ran to report the events to the disciples.
 

Mancunian

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Yes. Reports are coming back positive that it has been located. GPR, ERT, LiDAR, core drilling, dirt samples, ark dimensions have all been used scientifically to identify the ark. The anomaly at the Durupinar site has been determined not to be a natural formation.
3 levels have been discovered as well as right angels and a center hallway. More info here.

Mountains such as Mt Ararat were not present at the beginning of the flood. Around the time of the end of the flood the continents shifted, slid, moved and formed the mountains of the world. Geologist can look at features such as recumbent folds in the rock strata and have determined that the folds formed rapidly while the sediment was still somewhat plastic.
Psalms 104 describes this...
5He set the earth on its foundations,
so that it should never be moved.
6You covered it with the deep as with a garment;
the waters stood above the mountains.
7At your rebuke they fled;
at the sound of your thunder they took to flight.
8The mountains rose, the valleys sank down
to the place that you appointed for them.
9You set a boundary that they may not pass,
so that they might not again cover the earth.

Perhaps, but you brought it up so here is an answer...

1. Fish can gradually become accustomed to a wide range of ambient salinities.
2. Some fish are an Euryhaline organism. They can live in both saltwater
(SW) and freshwater (FW). For example, the Cichlid fish Tilapia grahami is
found in SW but can maintain itself in FW.
Note: FW has 0 ppt (parts per thousand) of salinity and SW can be as high
as 35ppt of salinity. Most fish can tolerate a large range of this
salinity.
3. As the temperature of water increases a brackish water fish can live in
levels of almost no salinity. This could have occurred near a volcano.
4. Different individuals within the same species can have different salt
tolerances. This would have allowed the fish with the correct tolerance
to survive.
5. Antediluvian fish could have been more tolerant of saltwater that the
fishes of today. Micro evolutionary in salt tolerances could have changed
in the few thousand years since the flood.
6. Antediluvian seas were probably less saltier than todays seas.
A. Today = 35ppt of salt.
B. Prior to the flood the seas were about 20ppt of salt. The waters on
earth were 50% fresh and 50% salt. Unlike today where only a very small
fraction is fresh water.
During the flood if a complete mixture occurred the waters would be about
10ppt of salt. In reality you probably had a range of appr. 5-15 ppt of
salt.
7. The layers of FW to SW would have stratified in certain areas of the
globe. The fish could move up or down to adjust itself to the salt level.
8. During the flood sheltered cracks could have formed separating the
hi-saline water from the less saltier walter. This could have provided
protection for the fish and its fauna.
9. Only two of millions/billions?, a male and female of the same class
needed to survive the flood in order to repopulate the waters.

As you see all or some of the above if applied could have kept the classes
of fish alive during the Flood of Noah.

Yes it was. That was the purpose.

I would think they still had some food left over from the storage bins on the ark to carry them through for a while.
I would think the chickens and such were laying eggs...cows, goats gave milk and so on. So, no, I don't think they would have starved to death. Perhaps you could develop your narrative more to show your statement would be true.

Is there anything else you would like to address about Noahs flood or the ark?
Yes.
Do you think that Noah's flood story was borrowed from the Epic of Gilgamesh?
 

ProDeo

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It's all very confusing.
Little wonder that I don't believe.

It's not only that.

In the hypothetical case the good Lord would give you a sign you can not ignore -

Would you believe and obey Him ?

Isn't that the crux of the matter ?
 
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shepherdsword

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Yes.
Do you think that Noah's flood story was borrowed from the Epic of Gilgamesh?
The flood account was spread to all nations when the division of Babel occurred.(Ge 11:9) Since this predated Moses, it is not surprising that we find flood accounts from many different cultures that predate the Genesis account. I recommend a good book on the subject. It explains how all nations were originally monotheistic and how similar accounts are spread.

Eternity in Their Hearts: Startling Evidence of Belief in the One True God in Hundreds of Cultures Throughout the World

Blessings
 
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CrowCross

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Empty tomb bible contradiction.

The four Gospel accounts of the empty tomb contain several notable discrepancies in their details, which critics view as contradictions and apologists view as complementary perspectives.

Key Discrepancies in the Accounts
• Who went to the tomb: Mark mentions Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome (Mark 16:1). Matthew lists Mary Magdalene and "the other Mary" (Matthew 28:1). Luke mentions Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and others (Luke 24:10). John explicitly names only Mary Magdalene, though she uses the plural pronoun "we," implying others were with her (John 20:1–2).
Mentioning one Mary doesn't exclude other Mary's. You need to demonstrate there was only one Mary.
• The state of the stone: Matthew describes an earthquake and an angel descending to roll away the stone while the women watched or upon their arrival (Matthew 28:2). In contrast, Mark, Luke, and John state that the stone was already rolled away when the women arrived.
  • One way to harmonize Matthew with the other accounts is that Matthew collapsed the two events together, so it sounded like the guards and women saw the stone rolled away, but in fact only the guards did. Then, after some time, the woman arrived on the scene. This is consistent with Matthew’s more compressed account of the resurrection compared with the other Gospels. You can visit this reference for more information on this subject.
• Who was at the tomb: Mark mentions a young man sitting on the right side inside the tomb (Mark 16:5). Matthew describes an angel sitting on the rolled-away stone outside (Matthew 28:2). Luke mentions two men in dazzling clothes standing beside them inside (Luke 24:4). John describes Mary looking in later and seeing two angels in white sitting where the body had lain (John 20:11–12).
As with the Mary's the mentioning or not mentioning an angel...depending on how the account is told doesn't negate what the other authors wrote.
• What the women did afterward: Mark states the women fled the tomb and "said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid" (Mark 16:8). Matthew, Luke, and John all record that the women immediately ran to report the events to the disciples.
They said nothing between the tomb and speaking to the disciples. That is they spoke to no one at the tomb or at the markets on their way to informing the disciples.

In the past I've read reports from separate reporters reporting the same facts of the same events where one presented more details than the other. I'm sure you've seen the same thing.
 

Mancunian

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Which of the 10 Commandments do you morally object to?
I object to wasting commandments on trivia.... The first four are all about God's ego, he could have dropped one of those in favour of let's say "Thou shalt not make slaves" or "Thou shalt not go to war".
Of course the others are givens.

If God is perfectly moral and the commandments are perfectly moral, how can God break those commandments himself?

God commited genocide, God directly ordered murder, God made a bargain with Satan, God lied to Adam and Eve.

Lead by example.... Let's not regulate slavery, let's command against it.
 

Mancunian

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It's not only that.

In the hypothetical case the good Lord would give you a sign you can not ignore -

Would you believe and obey Him ?

Isn't that the crux of the matter ?
I would have to believe, but whether I could bring myself to obey is another matter.
It would be like being between a rock and a hard place.... Not liking the heaven scenario, an eternity rubbing shoulders with undesirable people with no way out, or the alternative what ever that may be.
And when I say undesirable people, I mean born again murderers and rapists.

I suppose at the end of the day I'd have to decline the invitation and die/ burn knowing that I'm morally superior.
 

ProDeo

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I would have to believe, but whether I could bring myself to obey is another matter.

Thanks for your honesty.

That settles the matter.

It would be like being between a rock and a hard place.... Not liking the heaven scenario, an eternity rubbing shoulders with undesirable people with no way out, or the alternative what ever that may be.
And when I say undesirable people, I mean born again murderers and rapists.

I suppose at the end of the day I'd have to decline the invitation and die/ burn knowing that I'm morally superior.

God loves you anyway.
 

Mancunian

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Thanks for your honesty.

That settles the matter.



God loves you anyway.
I do try to be honest, I've tried and failed at pulling the wool over my wife's eyes.
I definitely didn't shrink her wool cardigan in the tumble dryer.
 

Mancunian

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Mrs Mancunian doesn't approve of me being here.
She is what's known as a café Christian. She does all the right things. She prays for her brother who is in prison. She prays for our kids, she prays that her deceased mother can hear her.

Nothing changes. Her brother is still being beaten up in prison, our kids are being kids and are making their own way in life...And her mother is being silent about her whereabouts.

I'm of the opinion that prayer falls on deaf ears.
I've prayed in the past, not hoping for results, but simply put, just hoping for some kind of communication or sign.
Up to now, nothing.

I have (as I've said) the opinion that the universe was set in motion by something.... I'm also convinced that whatever that was is not interested in me, or anyone else.
 

ProDeo

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I do try to be honest, I've tried and failed at pulling the wool over my wife's eyes.
I definitely didn't shrink her wool cardigan in the tumble dryer.

Remember, you are a winner, out of the millions you were given life. Honor your Creator and you will be fine. Don't blew the free gift of life. Be well.
 

ProDeo

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I have (as I've said) the opinion that the universe was set in motion by something....

That's a great start.

I'm also convinced that whatever that was is not interested in me, or anyone else.

I can testify you are wrong, but I also know that will not convince you. I don't know why God hasn't answered your prayers. There must be a reason for that. Maybe you could ask Him?
 

Mancunian

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What's the haha all about? I asked you a straight forward question. Just answer it.
We know that the Epic of Gilgamesh predates the Bible.
We know that genesis mirrors the Epic of Gilgamesh and comes from the same region.... Namely Iraq.
I'm not being condescending or trying to make you look silly. Please stop doing that to me.