Daq and Purity on the resurrection of the dead

[Purity]

I see your tactics and habits have not changed one iota skmakainsite. It might be convenient for you to change your name as you traverse from one place to another but as for myself it is not possible to do such a thing; and why would I be so foolish as to defame or surrender that which God has given unto me? Have you never read how Enoch the Scribe was translated? How then is it possible for him to prophesy if he was not sent back to write of it or tell of it? And what about Sha'ul, was that one returned or do we rather now read from the epistles of Paul? And what about Stephen? Did you never read how Paul states that he baptized the household of Stephanas? Yet we have already been over all of this have we not? daq was beneath the altar of 'adamah while the wicked were in power. :lol:

CRF-T Dead this one appears to be a perfect match for your kind. :)

Something is amiss daq - I still believe you have much to add to this discussion, after all the invitation was for your contribution. From the above comment and those previous, it would seem you desire an offering.

Rev 3:20

Purity (dust I am and dust I will return) ;)

 

[daq]

Something is amiss daq - I still believe you have much to add to this discussion, after all the invitation was for your contribution. From the above comment and those previous, it would seem you desire an offering.

Rev 3:20

Purity (dust I am and dust I will return) ;)

I know that I have been purchased and therefore you do not owe me anything.
However, if you desire answers then there are plenty to begin with on the previous page. ;)

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Apparently, souls do exist after and during death, are resting, are with GOD, do have consciousness of GOD and their past, and have a voice:

And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had, and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, holy and true Lord, will you not judge and avenge our blood from those who live on the earth?” And to each one of them a white robe was given, and it was said to them that they should rest yet a short time, until [the number of] their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they [had been] were completed also. Revelation 6:9-11

I see your tactics and habits have not changed one iota skmakainsite. It might be convenient for you to change your name as you traverse from one place to another but as for myself it is not possible to do such a thing; and why would I be so foolish as to defame or surrender that which God has given unto me? Have you never read how Enoch the Scribe was translated? How then is it possible for him to prophesy if he was not sent back to write of it or tell of it? And what about Sha'ul, was that one returned or do we rather now read from the epistles of Paul? And what about Stephen? Did you never read how Paul states that he baptized the household of Stephanas? Yet we have already been over all of this have we not? daq was beneath the altar of 'adamah while the wicked were in power. :lol:

CRF-T Dead this one appears to be a perfect match for your kind. :)

Self-indulgent, to say the least.

The words possess AND soul do not appear in the Scripture to my knowledge (I could be wrong)

Luke 21:19 (KJV)

G2932 κτάομαι ktaŏmai, a primary verb; to get, i.e. acquire
G5590 ψυχή psuche 1. soul, inner being or life

Getting what we already have would indicate a fully realized possession

Paul here wrote concerning the whole person, not several artificially separated elements as many try to do today. Its rather sad I must need define these here:

(1) "Spirit'' ("pneuma") is reasonably equivalent to mind (1 Co 5:3; 1Co 7:34; 2Co 7:1; Php 1:27), and may in this case denote especially the "mind of the Spirit", the renewed mind of a believer (cp such passages as 1Cor 2:14; Heb 4:12; etc).

(2) By contrast, "soul" ("psuche") may represent the natural life -- of either a human being or an animal. Even in a man, "psuche" may indicate no more than the baser, natural elements of personality (Luk 2:19; Luk 2:22; 1Co 15:45; 1Pe 1:22; Jam 3:15; etc).

(3) "Body" ("soma") is the physical form and substance. Without a natural "soul" (life), it is only a corpse. With a "soul" (life) but no (renewed) "spirit", it may be an ever-so-intelligent creature -- but it is still, in God's sight, spiritually "dead" (1Ti 5:6; Rom 8:13; Eph 2:1; Eph 2:5)!

I don't think it's sad that you have to define such things. This is a very deep, obscure issue, which causes most people to lose interest. Plus it is not a crucial understanding to have.

I personally believe there are 2 spirits: the spirit of all natural life (including man) administered via and signified by the four living creatures (Revelation 4:6), and the holy spirit of the eternal realm, which is really 7 spirits. Unregenerate men have the former, but not the latter. Living regenerate men have both until they die, where they lose the former, but retain the latter forever. The same would apply to those who are alive at the lord's return (i.e., lose one, keep the other).

It is not by any means in our possession for we die and break down to the earth what is left but the memory of us held safely in an all powerful God.

We are more than bodies that return to the earth. Also, memories don't cry our for revenge, and are told to rest and clothe themselves with a white robe. Of course, I can see where this could be taken figuratively.

 

[Purity]

Apparently, souls do exist after and during death, are resting, are with GOD, do have consciousness of GOD and their past, and have a voice:

And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had, and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, holy and true Lord, will you not judge and avenge our blood from those who live on the earth?” And to each one of them a white robe was given, and it was said to them that they should rest yet a short time, until [the number of] their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they [had been] were completed also. Revelation 6:9-11

Great section of Scripture!

Firstly, do you believe this is speaking literally? Is there an alter where all the martyrs currently dwell

This section is speaking about those who die "in Christ" are "under the altar", "sleeping with Jesus," "dwelling in the dust." As the blood was poured out of the sacrifices offered upon the altar, so the "souls of them that were slain for the word of God" are here represented as poured out, for the life (or "soul") is the blood -- Lev 17:11.

The OT saints of Heb 11, esp Heb 11:39,40. Soul, life = blood in Lev 17:11. Compare figure: 2 Tim 4:6; Php2:17; Luk 18:6-8.

In summary you can see how souls actually refer to those "lives" which were slain for Christ.

Nothing "immortal" being implied.

Luke 21:19 (KJV)

G2932 κτάομαι ktaŏmai, a primary verb; to get, i.e. acquire
G5590 ψυχή psuche 1. soul, inner being or life

Getting what we already have would indicate a fully realized possession
Again, the context here really matters.

Note the verse before Luke 21:18KJV? "perish"

Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life (Rev 2:10).

The crown is not in our possession now - its by promise!

"You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised... we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved" (Heb 10:36, Heb 10:39).

I don't think it's sad that you have to define such things. This is a very deep, obscure issue, which causes most people to lose interest. Plus it is not a crucial understanding to have.

The consequence of not understanding our nature, the hope of the resurrection and beyond is critical essential doctrines - its sad these truths have been lost in place of Greek philosophy.

I personally believe there are 2 spirits: the spirit of all natural life (including man) as signified by the four beasts, and the spirit of the eternal realm, which is really 7 spirits. Unregenerate men have the former, but not the latter. Living regenerate men have both until they die, when they lose the former, but retain the latter forever.

Can you take me to Genesis to show this understanding. The truth I have set before you is established from the beginning and echoed till the end.

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be (Rev 22:12)

Purity

I know that I have been purchased and therefore you do not owe me anything.
However, if you desire answers then there are plenty to begin with on the previous page. ;)

Yes, but the truth has been posted on this page.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Can you take me to Genesis to show this understanding. The truth I have set before is established from the beginning and echoed till the end.

I can't take you to Genesis to explicitly show you the truth of the 7 spirits, but there it is. So I don't think that is a definitive test for truth.

The consequence of not understanding our nature, the hope of the resurrection and beyond is critical essential doctrines - its sad these truths have been lost in place of Greek philosophy.

This may be true. I am certainly interested in knowing the truth.

 

[Purity]

I can't take you to Genesis to explicitly show you the truth of the 7 spirits, but there it is. So I don't think that is a definitive test for truth.


This may be true. I am certainly interested in knowing the truth.

This self admission is concerning wouldn't you say?

You need to be able to speak to this truth for there to be light. Isa 8:20 has stood the test of time - even Christ lived by its import.

Purity

This may be true. I am certainly interested in knowing the truth.

I don't have all truth! But what I have is true.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

This self admission is concerning wouldn't you say?

You need to be able to speak to this truth for there to be light. Isa 8:20 has stood the test of time - even Christ lived by its import.

Purity

If I can see what you can't see, that doesn't mean it's not true. I told you what I believe. These are very deep mysteries. He that has ears, let him hear.

If this a stumbling block to you, then fine, we won't proceed. Nevertheless, it is what I believe. Just because I can't explicitly show you in Genesis what I see in Revelation doesn't mean it's not true, because the 7 spirits are truth, but they are not mentioned in Genesis.

 

[Purity]

If I can see what you can't see, that doesn't mean it's not true. I told you what I believe. These are very deep mysteries. He that has ears, let him hear.

If this a stumbling block to you, then fine, we won't proceed. Nevertheless, it is what I believe. Just because I can't explicitly show you in Genesis what I see in Revelation doesn't mean it's not true, because the 7 spirits are truth, but they are not mentioned in Genesis.

[SIZE=9pt]But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]How can they be perished? If something is immortal how can it lose its immortality? Go and see what the word perished means in the Greek. [/SIZE]

To destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

This comment has no basis if Paul believed in an immortal soul.

Re: your above comment. The Word of God must be our guiding influence for truth. And your belief is not a stumbling block for me; that's why I am sharing these Bible teachings with you.
[SIZE=9pt] [/SIZE]

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

[SIZE=9pt]But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]How can they be perished? If something is immortal how can it lose its immortality? Go and see what the word perished means in the Greek. [/SIZE]

To destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

This comment has no basis if Paul believed in an immortal soul.
[SIZE=9pt] [/SIZE]

How would this conversation change if we used the word eternal in place of immortal? Immortality only pertains to the righteous, but there are just and unjust souls.

 

[Purity]

How would this conversation change if we used the word eternal in place of immortal? Immortality only pertains to the righteous, but there are just and unjust souls.

You mean just and unjust people? if you believe a soul is of God how can it be unjust?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You mean just and unjust people? if you believe a soul is of God how can it be unjust?

The soul that sins dies. Men receive everything they have from GOD, yet they pervert it.

 

[Purity]

The soul that sins dies. Men receive everything they have from GOD, yet they pervert it.

If one believes a soul is eternal or immortal how can it die? or sin for that matter?

Can we speak about Acts 24:15?

Acts 24:15NET
Acts 24:15ESV
Acts 24:15NASB
Acts 24:15KJV

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

If one believes a soul is eternal or immortal how can it die?

Eternal means beyond time. Immortal means unable to perish.

Death is separation from life. Natural death is separation from natural life; eternal death is separation from eternal life. Those who perish are made alive at the second resurrection, and then separated from GOD forever. As a type, the scapegoat was sent alive into the wilderness, not killed. They are not annihilated; they are forever made aware of life apart from GOD. That is the second death.

 

[Purity]

Eternal means beyond time. Immortal means unable to perish.

So if a soul is eternal can it die or sin?

If a soul is immortal can it die or sin?

Death is separation from life.

Death is cessation of life...in fact, no contact with God is possible

Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand. (Psa 88:5)

Natural death is separation from natural life; eternal death is separation from eternal life.

Eternal death is for those who know not God or are unworthy of God.

The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead. (Pro 21:16)

This is as clear a verse one can possibly get.

Those who perish are made alive at the second resurrection,

No, perish is only used in the context of total destruction - the word you need is "sleep" - at the first and second resurrection.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2Pe 3:9)

and then separated from GOD forever.

Everyone who returns to dust is separated from God until the day of resurrection of the just and unjust Acts 24:15

But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah. (Psa 49:15)

I wonder if the word "power" rings any bells?

As a type, the scapegoat was sent alive into the wilderness, not killed. They are not annihilated; they are forever made aware of life apart from GOD. That is the second death.

One was killed.

The second death is for the just and unjust who are raised ( and gathered) and found unworthy of immortality.

See Rev 21:8 for the list of admirable characters.

Purity

(btw the lake is not literal if you were wondering?)

Enjoying the chat.. its now my turn to head for bed.

Good night all.

 

[daq]

I see your tactics and habits have not changed one iota skmakainsite. It might be convenient for you to change your name as you traverse from one place to another but as for myself it is not possible to do such a thing; and why would I be so foolish as to defame or surrender that which God has given unto me? Have you never read how Enoch the Scribe was translated? How then is it possible for him to prophesy if he was not sent back to write of it or tell of it? And what about Sha'ul, was that one returned or do we rather now read from the epistles of Paul? And what about Stephen? Did you never read how Paul states that he baptized the household of Stephanas? Yet we have already been over all of this have we not? daq was beneath the altar of 'adamah while the wicked were in power. :lol:

CRF-T Dead this one appears to be a perfect match for your kind. :)

Apparently, souls do exist after and during death, are resting, are with GOD, do have consciousness of GOD and their past, and have a voice:

And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had, and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, holy and true Lord, will you not judge and avenge our blood from those who live on the earth?” And to each one of them a white robe was given, and it was said to them that they should rest yet a short time, until [the number of] their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they [had been] were completed also. Revelation 6:9-11


Self-indulgent, to say the least.

Is it my fault you do not believe the Ten Words are written to you? You have already been shown how to build the altar of 'adamah according to the Scripture, (which we are commanded to build in the same Exodus 20 passage). He that forsakes the commandments of God, no matter his theology, that soul shall find no rest in the great day of trouble; the same is like a man who builds his house upon the sand. Even one now calling himself "Purity" knows such things though he does not appear to confess them any longer. :)

 

[Purity]

Can we speak about Acts 24:15?

Acts 24:15NET
Acts 24:15ESV
Acts 24:15NASB
Acts 24:15KJV

What do you think?