Daq and Purity on the resurrection of the dead

[Purity]

I wanted to subliminally proclaim the good news to everyone's minds at every post.

The Master would be pleased.

A most interesting idea that I have never even thought about. I haven't delved into what you've provided, but at face value and by logical extension it would seem that a soul is the awareness that results from the confluence of body and spirit.

Thus, the spirit of the beast (both actual and figurative) descends into the earth, and the spirit of (the new) man ascends to GOD.

So does that mean the soul is recreated at resurrection, or something else that Paul called life-giving spirit, for the sons of GOD?

Soul and Spirit = Body and Mind

Consider David. It is recorded that "David slept with his fathers." 1 Kings 2:10 and Solomon (1 Kings11:43), Rehoboam (1 Kings 14:31) and most of the kings, Job, Job 7:21 Lazarus John 11:11 - even Jesus himself, for it is said of him that "now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept." 1Cor 15:20

The difference between Christ and those he is coming to raise is he never saw corruption.

“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death” (1Co 15:22-26; see also Job 19:26; Dan 12:1-3; Jos 5:28-29; 1Th 4:14-18

How is man recreated? do we have an example in Scripture?

I suggest we do.

1 Cor 15:35 - "How are the dead raised up" better translated "How are the dead ones rebuilded" The word 'raised up' being egeiro signifies to awaken, wake up, arouse, cause to rise up and in the passive voice, to rebuild, rear up, to cause to exist.

1 Cor 15:35NET
1 Cor 15:35KJV
1 Cor 15:35NASB
1 Cor 15:35ESV

Purity

(Job 7:21 is hard to overcome)

 

[daq]

Yes, I agree, interest is wanning.

To find a believer who can coherently define the soul, spirit, the mother of all living and the second Adam is no easy task. To speak plainly concerning a matter is all that is being requested.

I read through some of your posts (before this thread) and felt your understanding of the Scripture and familiarly with its language, was impressive. Its a shame you have chosen a sceptical spirit along with a fearful outlook of something deceptive being implied. Its not the case.

Read your above post ask whether you clearly put forth your belief on the soul?

Celestial things - you took me to a passage that conveys the most personal and intimate relationships considered. (Deuteronomy 13:6-11 KJV)

Thank you...it could be a compliment but the context may suggest otherwise.

The "son of thy mother" implies a much closer relationship than the son of the same father, but of a different mother in a polygamous marriage. The "wife of thy bosom" likewise expresses the closest intimacy. It was the sin of Adam that he yielded to the persuasion of the wife he loved, and this can be a danger at any time. The "friend which is as thy own soul" is one so beloved, that an Israelite would hesitate to offend him, much less deliver him up to the penalty of death. Moses laid it down, and Christ endorsed it, that the nearest and dearest must not be permitted to deflect one from the true service of Yahweh. See how the teaching of Moses is endorsed by Micah ? (Micah 7:6) and its application in the new testament, as far as false brethren and prophets are concerned. Note the teaching of Christ (Matt. 10:37; Matt 12:49-50), and the warning of the Apostles (Gal. 2:4; 2 Pet. 2:1; 1 John 2:26; Jude 4).

The death state;

Psa 89:48 What man liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave?

Psa 89:48NET
Psa 89:48KJV
Psa 89:48ESV
Psa 89:48NASB

Without faith - No!

Purity

Instead of being offended, as another even right here in this thread has revealed from his heart by multiple blasphemies in various threads, times, and places, perhaps you should rather focus on running the race so as to win. It is not possible to throw out everything in one great giant post. The same genos which is herein now suggesting that I do not know what I speak of would certainly then be proclaiming that I had spammed great chunks of my own worldly wisdom and filled a thread with fodder. It is not that I seek to please anyone but rather I do not care enough to kill when someone else rejects the truth. It is not my place to convince or force anyone to believe anything. In fact I prefer stating the truth and walking away because it is buffoonery to think that just because one screams louder than the other or assassinates his character that he wins a lousy argument. Yet that is how modern society works, and man in general, so it is only the true sheep which will possibly take notice when they hear the truth. Perhaps it would have been better for you to suggest that you were going to do this before suddenly springing a surprise thread on me with my name in the title. However, it is good to meet other seekers and fellow sheep. :)

Once upon a twilight there was an old Rabbi sitting on a bench in an old depot watching for the last train home. And as we sat waiting a late-teens-early-twenties girl walked up with her little brother and they were arguing over whether there is a really "God" or not. The college-age sister was trying to explain to the young boy how the idea of "God" was just a "religious myth" used from time immemorial to enslave the masses with guilt and the fear of torment in hell if the sheeple did not heed the authority of the Pharisees, (both modern and ancient) scribes, priests, and pastors. However, the young boy was insistent upon the fact that God was real simply because "the Bible says so" and because he knew it from the first time mom and dad had told him it was so. Finally the boy looked over to the old man sitting there waiting for his train and asked what he thought about God and who he thought was right about these things. The elder sister tried to interrupt and stop her younger brother saying, "Don't bother the man, and you know you are not supposed to talk to strangers!" The Rabbi looked at the elder sister, then looked at the young boy, and with a smile he said, "Son, guard your spirit and do not ever put away the wife of your youth; for the Most High hates the putting away and he hates divorce!" And of course the boy replied; "A wife? How can I be married sir? Haha! I am only eight years old!" And so the Rabbi answered; "Most assuredly you have a wife, son, the wife of your inner bosom who is like unto your own soul, and she is that spirit of belief whose voice I hear when I hear you speak; the same is that spirit which results in the child-like faith of a child of God such as yourself: But beware son, and guard your spirit, for if you divorce this helpmate given you from above then you will grow up like your old sister being wedded to a cruel master!" (As in the days of Noah and again after that as in Deuteronomy 7:1-6) And with that the old man traversed onto the last train home.

Dreams or Visions Lately? Reply #7

PLEASE READ! PLEASE! Reply #3

Harpazo-Rapture-Saulo-Paulos Reply #24 (Re: The Eunuch ~ A Dream)

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Job 7:21 is hard to overcome

Hard to take literally IMO.

 

[Purity]

Hard to take literally IMO.

Job 7:21 can you explain what it means?

I could provide numerous other passages that teach the same lesson. What was in the mind of these men concerning their death? Did they believe in spirits and immortal souls?

Here is a question for all forum members.

Show me in the beginning where God told men of this immortal soul?

The book of Genesis is silent about such a doctrine.

Daq and others may try to force a word or two but in vain.

Purity

Instead of being offended,

No offence here Daq.

Although I am concerned for your lack of understanding and forthrightness concerning the subject of the nature of man, the hope of the resurrection and God's redemptive work in Christ Jesus.

You have strayed from the example of the Word and its guiding influence to story telling.

I will wait for the old Daq to return.

Purity

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Job 7:21 can you explain what it means?

I could provide numerous other passages that teach the same lesson. What was in the mind of these men concerning their death? Did they believe in spirits and immortal souls?
Here is a question for all forum members.
Show me in the beginning where God told men of this immortal soul?
The book of Genesis is silent about such a doctrine.
Daq and others may try to force a word or two but in vain.

IMO the author of Job is simply waxing poetic: Job will pass away and GOD will find him no more on the earth. His spirit, though, is obviously with the lord, so GOD does know how to find him.

I find the idea of a mortal soul most intriguing (and terrifying), and agree (so far) that the bible doesn't seem to support the idea of an immortal soul. I'm eager to see how this develops.

 

[daq]

Job 7:21 can you explain what it means?

I could provide numerous other passages that teach the same lesson. What was in the mind of these men concerning their death? Did they believe in spirits and immortal souls?

Here is a question for all forum members.

Show me in the beginning where God told men of this immortal soul?

The book of Genesis is silent about such a doctrine.

Daq and others may try to force a word or two but in vain.

Purity


No offence here Daq.

Although I am concerned for your lack of understanding and forthrightness concerning the subject of the nature of man, the hope of the resurrection and God's redemptive work in Christ Jesus.

You have strayed from the example of the Word and its guiding influence to story telling.

I will wait for the old Daq to return.

Purity

1) You clearly have an agenda which apparently cannot even stand the simple test of Genesis 2:7.
2) I do not wish to help you promote your agenda because I do not believe it to be founded in truth.
3) I do not appreciate you employing my screen name in your thread title to promote your agenda.
4) I will rather "suffer myself to be defrauded" and leave the two of you to your agendas. :)

 

[Purity]

IMO the author of Job is simply waxing poetic: Job will pass away and GOD will find him no more on the earth. His spirit, though, is obviously with the lord, so GOD does know how to find him.

I find the idea of a mortal soul most intriguing (and terrifying), and agree (so far) that the bible doesn't seem to support the idea of an immortal soul. I'm eager to see how this develops.

"His Spirit is obviously with the Lord"

Show me.

1) You clearly have an agenda which apparently cannot even stand the simple test of Genesis 2:7.

Ah, man being made of the dust of the ground and its is here he returns - no mention of immortal souls and spirits flying back to Yahweh.

Dust thou (daq) are and dust thou (daq) shall return.

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen 3:19)


You quote a verse that supports this teaching and yet to imply another?

Would you imply thou not to mean the whole being both body and mind?

2) I do not wish to help you promote your agenda because I do not believe it to be founded in truth.

This choice is yours to make.

3) I do not appreciate you employing my screen name in your thread title to promote your agenda.

No agenda Daq - your scepticism has clearly taken hold of you and now you have deteriorated to these 4 points. Its interesting you voice this dissatisfaction so late in our discussion?

4) I will rather "suffer myself to be defrauded" and leave the two of you to your agendas. :)

I see.

Let it be known these sufferings you speak off are "self inflicted" and you should know you are welcome to join in this discussion at any time.

Purity

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

"His Spirit is obviously with the Lord"
Show me.

OK, well I'm not sure at the moment how to, but something has to be with the lord - body, soul, spirit. The body has returned to dust; if the soul only exists in a body/spirit union, that leaves only the spirit remaining. Jesus said when he died, 'Father I commend my spirit to you'. Pretty good evidence right there that the spirit returns to GOD. Also, Eccl 3:21 (KJV)

 

[Purity]

OK, well I'm not sure at the moment how to, but something has to be with the lord

Why?

Is God not powerful enough to rebuild you and daq? Can God forget?

body, soul, spirit. The body has returned to dust; if the soul only exists in a body/spirit union, that leaves only the spirit remaining. Jesus said when he died, 'Father I commend my spirit to you'. Pretty good evidence right there that the spirit returns to GOD. Also, Eccl 3:21 (KJV)

Well Eccl 3:21 adopts the Hebrew word "ruach", as in Eccl 3:19.

I appreciate the notion of this divine ethereal particle retuning to God is enjoyed by many Christians, but is it truth?

Could it not mean all of man's ambitions, his intellect and strength, etc are all capable of direction upward, toward God. (This would be practically equivalent to Eccl 3:11: where man is said to have "eternity" in his heart.

Are we to believe man seeks for immortality, but already has it in his possession?

Rom 2:7NET
Rom 2:7ESV
Rom 2:7KJV
Rom 2:7NASB

Purity

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

We have immortality through faith. As we endure we possess our soul. It is not in our full possession yet, yet the anchor (or Jacob's ladder, if you will) is within our hearts ministering to us what is being preserved for us in heaven.

 

[Purity]

We have immortality through faith. As we endure we possess our soul. It is not in our full possession yet, yet the anchor (or Jacob's ladder, if you will) is within our hearts ministering to us what is being preserved for us in heaven.

So, you do have immortality, or not?

Can you provide a verse that supports this above belief...

Purity

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So, you do have immortality, or not?

Can you provide a verse that supports this above belief...

Purity

Yes, I have it through faith. As I endure, I possess what is mine

To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 1 Peter 1:4-5

In your patience possess ye your souls. Luke 21:19

 

[Purity]

Yes, I have it through faith. As I endure, I possess what is mine

To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 1 Peter 1:4-5

In your patience possess ye your souls. Luke 21:19

"reserved in heaven for you"

To be revealed with Christ in whose life a believer is hid i.e "ready to be revealed in the last time"

So this immortality is actuality not in your possession?

Paul understood this when defining the Father on High;

(God) Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1Ti 6:16)

Speaking to your quote more thoroughly we find the inheritance is reserved in heaven, but is to be manifested on earth at the Lord's return. See 1 Peter1:5; 2 Co 5:2-4; Php 3:20-21. Those deemed righteous will be "recompensed at the resurrection of the just" (Luke 14:14). Notice that the AV margin renders the plural you as us? The variation is due to various readings in mss. The common reading is for you. The sense is not materially affected. "Reserved" is from the Gr. Tereo, signifying "to guard, preserve." God has provided all things necessary through His son to preserve for us the promised inheritance. We can only blame ourselves if we do not measure up to the requirements. (John 14:2 : Mat 16:25-27; Col 3:3-4).

The question CRFTD is this "consider what the consequence of getting this doctrine wrong; how would this affect your outlook on life if you did not have an immortal soul?"

Purity

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So this immortality is actuality not in your possession?

No. It is in heaven; I am on earth. Yet faith is the substance of that hoped for, and Jacob's ladder ministers its reality to me.

 

[Purity]

No. It is in heaven; I am on earth. Yet faith is the substance of that hoped for, and Jacob's ladder ministers its reality to me.

So by this truth how does one identify with an immortal soul?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I'm not sure what you mean. Do we even agree that the soul is immortal before the resurrection of life? The spirit is certainly immortal IMO.

 

[Purity]

I'm not sure what you mean. Do we even agree that the soul is immortal before the resurrection of life? The spirit is certainly immortal IMO.

If soul in the Hebrew carried the meaning of a person's life, body or natural person (living breathing creature) then no it cannot be immortal; only God is immortal and hath immortality to give.

The Spirit can offer immortality to those who have the mind of Christ - Phil 2:5KJV; Rom 8:10KJV

The Spirit (Word) is implanted James 1:21 and it alone can offer you salvation as per 2 Tim 3:15-16

James 1:21NET
James 1:21KJV
James 1:21ESV
James 1:21NASB

As you stated earlier immortality is the reward reserved in heaven not endowed in you today.

Maybe with this knowledge a Christians will see the seriousness of the Gospel?

For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.(1Pe 4:6)

Now go back and read 1 Peter 4:5!

Purity

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

If soul in the Hebrew carried the meaning of a person's life, body or natural person (living breathing creature) then no it cannot be immortal; only God is immortal and hath immortality to give.

But the soul must be immortal at some point because Jesus said that in our patient endurance we possess our souls. We 'possess' our souls as long as we live whether we have patience or not; so he must have been referring to eternity. So if the soul is not immortal of itself, it must become immortal when it is created anew at the first resurrection.

bedtime... later

 

[Purity]

But the soul must be immortal at some point because Jesus said that in our patient endurance we possess our souls. We 'possess' our souls as long as we live whether we have patience or not; so he must have been referring to eternity. So if the soul is not immortal of itself, it must become immortal when it is created anew at the first resurrection.

bedtime... later

Yes, the soul or body must "put on" immortality which as you say is at the first resurrection and will also take place at the second.

1 Cor 15:53NET
1 Cor 15:54NET
1 Cor 15:53ESV
1 Cor 15:54ESV
1 Cor 15:53KJV
1 Cor 15:54KJV

For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.(1 Peter 4:6)

Now go back and read 1 Peter 4:5!

1 Peter 4:5NET
1 Peter 4:5KJV
1 Peter 4:5ESV
1 Peter 4:5NASB

1 Peter 4:6NET
1 Peter 4:6KJV
1 Peter 4:6ESV
1 Peter 4:6NASB

The gospel is preached to them who are "dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph 2:1), in order to create in them an awareness of God. Such unilluminated people are the "spirits in prison" to whom the Lord preached the word during his ministry (1 Peter 3:19). The objective of such preaching is to make known unto such the purpose of God in all its goodness, in the hope that the hearer may be led to repentance, i.e. to a completely changed mental attitude, moral disposition, and habits (Rom 2:4). This new life will find approval at the judgment seat of Christ. With this in mind, one must be prepared-to bear the ignominy of men with indifference.

Nothing in us is immortal other than a living faith in the one true life giver - Who is above.

Purity


(Good night)

We have immortality through faith.

Yes this fits with 1 Peter 1:4

As we endure we possess our soul.

The words possess AND soul do not appear in the Scripture to my knowledge (I could be wrong)

However, one such verse which many immortal soulist use is 1 Thess 5:23 which appears to read with those notions but actually offer another meaning to the reader.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1Th 5:23)

(comment coming)

Notice the distinctions among the three "parts" of a person is forced. Just as there are no perfectly clear-cut lines of distinction (but rather a fair degree of overlap) among "heart, soul, mind, and strength" in Mark 12:30, or among "heart, soul, and might" in Deut 6:5, likewise 1Th 5:23.

Paul here wrote concerning the whole person, not several artificially separated elements as many try to do today. Its rather sad I must need define these here:

(1) "Spirit'' ("pneuma") is reasonably equivalent to mind (1 Co 5:3; 1Co 7:34; 2Co 7:1; Php 1:27), and may in this case denote especially the "mind of the Spirit", the renewed mind of a believer (cp such passages as 1Cor 2:14; Heb 4:12; etc).

(2) By contrast, "soul" ("psuche") may represent the natural life -- of either a human being or an animal. Even in a man, "psuche" may indicate no more than the baser, natural elements of personality (Luk 2:19; Luk 2:22; 1Co 15:45; 1Pe 1:22; Jam 3:15; etc).

(3) "Body" ("soma") is the physical form and substance. Without a natural "soul" (life), it is only a corpse. With a "soul" (life) but no (renewed) "spirit", it may be an ever-so-intelligent creature -- but it is still, in God's sight, spiritually "dead" (1Ti 5:6; Rom 8:13; Eph 2:1; Eph 2:5)!

It is a scriptural teaching that God must be, and will be, glorified in our bodies as well as our minds (1 Thess 4:4; 1 Co 6:13-20).

It is not in our full possession yet,

I
t is not by any means in our possession for we die and break down to the earth what is left but the memory of us held safely in an all powerful God.

yet the anchor (or Jacob's ladder, if you will) is within our hearts ministering to us what is being preserved for us in heaven.

Yes the angels assist in bringing us to judgement, or a day of reckoning, as Peter taught.

The angels "ascend and descend", of course teaching us of their continued presence.

Purity

 

[daq]

"His Spirit is obviously with the Lord"

Show me.


Ah, man being made of the dust of the ground and its is here he returns - no mention of immortal souls and spirits flying back to Yahweh.

Dust thou (daq) are and dust thou (daq) shall return.

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen 3:19)


You quote a verse that supports this teaching and yet to imply another?

Would you imply thou not to mean the whole being both body and mind?


This choice is yours to make.


No agenda Daq - your scepticism has clearly taken hold of you and now you have deteriorated to these 4 points. Its interesting you voice this dissatisfaction so late in our discussion?


I see.

Let it be known these sufferings you speak off are "self inflicted" and you should know you are welcome to join in this discussion at any time.

Purity

Dust thou (daq) are and dust thou (daq) shall return.

I see your tactics and habits have not changed one iota skmakainsite. It might be convenient for you to change your name as you traverse from one place to another but as for myself it is not possible to do such a thing; and why would I be so foolish as to defame or surrender that which God has given unto me? Have you never read how Enoch the Scribe was translated? How then is it possible for him to prophesy if he was not sent back to write of it or tell of it? And what about Sha'ul, was that one returned or do we rather now read from the epistles of Paul? And what about Stephen? Did you never read how Paul states that he baptized the household of Stephanas? Yet we have already been over all of this have we not? daq was beneath the altar of 'adamah while the wicked were in power. :lol:

CRF-T Dead this one appears to be a perfect match for your kind. :)