Darkness and light (poll)

[Lizbeth]

But children are also very good at pretending. We don't need to appropriate righteousness for ourselves to feel secure. God watches over us all.

To go by what the scriptures are saying is good...I do that very thing. What I won't do, however, is to appropriate the verses I like and reject the ones I don't like concerning me. I'm in God's hands. And you are in God's hands. No need to make outrageous claims for how righteous we are.

A righteous person doesn't think they are righteous....that's how righteousness works. And righteous is as righteous does...that's why we will only be judged by what we have DONE. If we are to be judged for a gift of righteousness by grace...it will be a harder judgment...not an easier one.

So then you must reconsider who is upside down here.

You have to look at others who believe the Bible as much as you do...but disconnect from the temptation to name it and claim it according to the modern religious culture...that is powerful enough to affect people who are no longer part of the institutional church. Its one thing to leave the system and quite another to get the system out of a person.

Then it appears we need to learn the difference between faith and pretence. For the third time I'll quote this and hope it sinks in: Faith is the EVIDENCE of things NOT SEEN, the SUBSTANCE of things HOPED for.

Are you born again? If so, what happened when you were born again? Didn't the Lord turn your life around and put your feet in His paths of righteousness? Were you pretending? No, He wrought a miracle in we who BELIEVED on Jesus. Didn't mean we were perfect yet at that point, but my oh my we sure did change direction.

 

[Lizbeth]

God does the reckoning upwardly ...we are only to reckon downwardly...we are dead. If we reckon ourselves upwardly that is self-righteousness. We NEVER reckon ourselves to be righteous...only dead.

And the flesh hates the idea of death. But there is a secret here. We embrace our death so that God takes us up into resurrection life. He is the one doing the justifying, then. Not just some bible reading formula...but an actual eternal life.

In God's economy, the way up is down, yes, we grow in humility and do not exalt ourselves, or think more highly than we ought etc.. It is the Lord who reckons us righteous, and it's by HIS righteousness not our own, so we have nothing to boast in.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Didn't mean we were perfect yet

If the spotless and sinless righteousness of Jesus is said By God to be you now, how is that not perfect…? I thought the perfectness of Jesus was who you are, as with the phrase, I am the righteousness of Jesus. I am holy.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Faith is the EVIDENCE of things NOT SEEN

This is to say that faith is a steadiness/firm and unwavering trust of what God has said

 

[Wynona]

Okay, so I’m not upset. That’s first. You were the one who expressed great alarm.
But being vague and milquetoasty and socially polished and dancing around when people have poison in their mouths is not the way to go.

I meant no harm towards you. I didnt speak that way for the sake of hiding something sinister. Ill be direct.
I am concerned about you and some things you posted. I didn't want to target you specifically or even go into detail about that on a public forum.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I meant no harm towards you. I didnt speak that way for the sake of hiding something sinister. Ill be direct.
I am concerned about you and some things you posted. I didn't want to target you specifically or even go into detail about that on a public forum.

Your honesty and directness is very refreshing. Thank you for it. I think it would be very helpful to anyone reading to discuss it out in the open. What things said give you concern about me? By the way, I just this morning read you are expecting a child?

 

[Wynona]

Your honesty and directness is very refreshing. Thank you for it. I think it would be very helpful to anyone reading to discuss it out in the open. What things said give you concern about me? By the way, I just this morning read you are expecting a child?

Yes, I'm expecting. I'm excited about it.

Your theology seems to have changed a lot, which isn't a problem in itself. I know mine did. But now Im wondering if its because you've put Episkopos words on a pedestal.

My concern is that you may be relying on Episkopos' wisdom more than you trust your own ability to learn from Scripture. I say this because someone asked you a question and you said you had to ask Episkopos.

From what Ive observed, the man is highly intelligent. I don't know if that simply means you respect that a lot or if it means he's persuaded you to always go with his judgment over your own.

It's highly dangerous to start trusting in anyone's judgement to the point where they're always right and your skepticism is always wrong. Even if they are right about a lot of things.

I don't think Episkopos is a bad person. But its possible that someone as gifted as he is can go down the path of acting as a guru, even without meaning to.

I wasn't trying to indirect about this. I just wouldve rather sent it in a pm so you wouldn't feel targeted.

 

[Lizbeth]

If the spotless and sinless righteousness of Jesus is said By God to be you now, how is that not perfect…? I thought the perfectness of Jesus was who you are, as with the phrase, I am the righteousness of Jesus. I am holy.

It's GOD'S word which says we have been made the righteousness of Christ. And maybe you haven't read where I posted at least a couple of times from Romans 4:17 where it talks about Abraham, how the Lord calls those things which be not as though they are. But the natural man can't receive this, so sister....sit yourself down and have a good prayerful read in Romans 3, 4, ,5, 6.....let it wash over you.

 

[Lizbeth]

This is to say that faith is a steadiness/firm and unwavering trust of what God has said

....the SUBSTANCE of things HOPED FOR.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I say this because someone asked you a question and you said you had to ask Episkopos.

That’s not what I said. I said the man would probably do better to ask Epi rather than me. My reason for that was because I think he is much better at explaining what was being discussed. It wasn’t because I can’t explain , I just think Epi has a much firmer grasp and can more facilely pull up the scriptures in his mind. I STILL sometimes manage to confuse holiness with righteousness as I seem to have a default setting that is sometimes overridden only with effort.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

....the SUBSTANCE of things HOPED FOR.

Yes. That’s the last part of the verse.
So…faith is: a steady, firm and unwavering trust of what God has said and that steadiness of trust is the foundation of the things we hope for.

 

[Wynona]

That’s not what I said. I said the man would probably do better to ask Epi rather than me. My reason for that was because I think he is much better at explaining what was being discussed. It wasn’t because I can’t explain , I just think Epi has a much firmer grasp and can more facilely pull up the scriptures in his mind. I STILL sometimes manage to confuse holiness with righteousness as I seem to have a default setting that is sometimes overridden only with effort.

I may have to look up his post on holiness and righteousness again. Im still not sure about that.
Im having trouble putting into words what I want to say but just don't give yourself too little credit about your understanding of things. You're very articulate and thoughtful all the time.

 

[Nancy]

The fact that you responded this way to someone who respectfully disagreed with your poll is raising red flags.

Im concerned that you write off those who even politely disagree with you as having "a religious understanding that stands in the way of heavenly revelation."

Implying that she's dishonest for not agreeing with your poll's wording is unfair.

A lot of what you're saying is true. The sad part is that I fear you've propped yourself up as some sort of spiritual guru as a result. Why not point people to the Scriptures and let them know they can learn truth just like you did?

Can people ask you questions without you being dismissive of them?

Because if not, that's really unhealthy and is more cult-like than anything else.

If those who you influence are relying more on your "deeper understanding" than the Holy Spirit guiding them through the Scriptures, that is also concerning.

Even though there is much I have learned from Epi, you do have good points sister...I believe he is sincere in what he believes/teaches. I cannot say I agree one hundred percent with anyone. But, we have discernment (if we do) and can filter the things we do not agree with and learn from the things we see in scripture. I love Epi and Jen very much. yet we do part ways in a few areas.
xo

 

[Episkopos]

Then it appears we need to learn the difference between faith and pretence. For the third time I'll quote this and hope it sinks in: Faith is the EVIDENCE of things NOT SEEN, the SUBSTANCE of things HOPED for.

Are you born again? If so, what happened when you were born again? Didn't the Lord turn your life around and put your feet in His paths of righteousness? Were you pretending? No, He wrought a miracle in we who BELIEVED on Jesus. Didn't mean we were perfect yet at that point, but my oh my we sure did change direction.

And that's great. But a change in direction is not the same as the perfection that is in Christ. This is about scale. And this is about receiving with meekness the ingrafted word.

We are not to esteem ourselves higher than we ought. By leaving room at the top we allow for advancement in the faith. My concern is not for individual cases...but with something that fits with the whole body. The Bible is written to the Body...and it is God who places us where He wills within it.

 

[Episkopos]

In God's economy, the way up is down, yes, we grow in humility and do not exalt ourselves, or think more highly than we ought etc.. It is the Lord who reckons us righteous, and it's by HIS righteousness not our own, so we have nothing to boast in.

The lack of boasting is by power from heaven to walk as Jesus walked. If we walk as mere humans...there is nothing to boast of.

Of course if we compare ourselves with the wicked...then we might boast. But such a comparison doesn't take into consideration that God expects more from us who have tasted His grace.

And why do you say "us" in regards to being seen as righteous by God? It is God who judges...not merely people who read the bible. Why don't more bible readers see themselves as blind and naked? Because it is a human tendency to see ourselves in the best possible light. it takes the Spirit to be convicted of our true condition. Seeing ourselves as in good shape with God doesn't take any discernment. It is assumed.

Eternal reality will one day dawn...and all that is hidden will be revealed. Then, what has been covered over will be made manifest. God will judge in His righteousness according to eternal light and truth. There are no favourites with God.

The best response as to whether we are poor naked and blind is...as the disciples of Jesus would say..."Lord is it I? "...then it is to wait on the Lord for HIS answer...not look to self-medicate by reading uplifting verses.

 

[Mr E]

I meant no harm towards you. I didnt speak that way for the sake of hiding something sinister. Ill be direct.
I am concerned about you and some things you posted. I didn't want to target you specifically or even go into detail about that on a public forum.

Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.

Disagreement is not tolerated by the guru and his band.

They speak a tremendous amount about humility, but you’ll never find a smoking gun in these threads. The moment someone disagrees with any point of his “Free Sample” doctrine of nonsense— it’s always the same. The barking begins.

With straight faces they will warn you about the dangers of the leaven of men, while feeding at the trough.

 

[Episkopos]

Abandon all hope, he who enter here.

Disagreement is not tolerated by the guru and his band.

They speak a tremendous amount about humility, but you’ll never find a smoking gun in these threads. The moment someone disagrees with any point of his “Free Sample” doctrine of nonsense— it’s always the same. The barking begins.

With straight faces they will warn you about the dangers of the leaven of men, while feeding at the trough.

A warning to the outer man to be sure. The religious sensibilities of people wants to be uplifted...molly-coddled. We are to speak the truth in love. But people hate the truth. Most will see the truth as being against love...well self-love anyway.

The forum is a place where anyone with a computer and a bible can post whatever they want. The chances that such a person knows what it means to be dead in Christ and walk in resurrection life are slim to none. So one would expect that there will be furious resistance to a message that uplifts the cross and what we are to lose in order to gain eternal life.

Humanity is funny that way. People will fight tooth and nail to remain in a dead state while seeing any light as something that merely hurts the eyes. It's like the Sting song that goes..."like a fish caught on dry land, struggling to avoid any helping hand."

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Your theology seems to have changed a lot

It has to if your mind is being renewed.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Have to go work with my hands. Thank you everyone for the conversation this morning, especially you, Winona. Thank you for your forthrightness. (And congratulations on the baby.)
Bear with one another.

 

[Lizbeth]

Yes. That’s the last part of the verse.
So…faith is: a steady, firm and unwavering trust of what God has said and that steadiness of trust is the foundation of the things we hope for.

Ears to hear, sister.