Darkness and light (poll)

[stunnedbygrace]

"a religious understanding that stands in the way of heavenly revelation."

Put another way - beware the leaven of men.

 

[Wynona]

Who would those people be who rely on his understanding more than on the Holy Spirit? I see that you’re concerned for them. Could you point them out so maybe we could pray for them?

No. I was being purposely vague.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Uh huh.
Maybe we can assume the people you were being purposely vague about are the very few who understand him or hit like on his posts…

 

[Episkopos]

The fact that you responded this way to someone who respectfully disagreed with your poll is raising red flags.

Im concerned that you write off those who even politely disagree with you as having "a religious understanding that stands in the way of heavenly revelation."

Implying that she's dishonest for not agreeing with your poll's wording is unfair.

A lot of what you're saying is true. The sad part is that I fear you've propped yourself up as some sort of spiritual guru as a result. Why not point people to the Scriptures and let them know they can learn truth just like you did?

Can people ask you questions without you being dismissive of them?

Because if not, that's really unhealthy and is more cult-like than anything else.

If those who you influence are relying more on your "deeper understanding" than the Holy Spirit guiding them through the Scriptures, that is also concerning.

You have to realize that these are not first time responses. Often on these threads its the same people relating the same things over and over again. When someone is stuck on something...I try...as politely as I can...to bring the seriousness of the subject to that person's attention...without condemnation. Something that is in the way of growth...or even something more serious needs some kind of emphasis beyond just wishing people a good day. Sometimes you have to pull people by the hair to stop them from drowning. The point to to do what you would want others to do if you were in their shoes,

But I'll keep in mind what you have said,

 

[Wynona]

Uh huh.
Maybe we can assume the people you were being purposely vague about are the very few who understand him or hit like on his posts…

Here is what I said:

If those who you influence are relying more on your "deeper understanding" than the Holy Spirit guiding them through the Scriptures, that is also concerning.

I said "if" so I didn't feel the need to name names. If those who like his posts aren't relying on him more than the Holy Spirit, then no one should be upset or be in a rush to identify themselves or anyone else.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Okay, so I’m not upset. That’s first. You were the one who expressed great alarm.
But being vague and milquetoasty and socially polished and dancing around when people have poison in their mouths is not the way to go.

 

[Lizbeth]

The fact that you responded this way to someone who respectfully disagreed with your poll is raising red flags.

Im concerned that you write off those who even politely disagree with you as having "a religious understanding that stands in the way of heavenly revelation."

Implying that she's dishonest for not agreeing with your poll's wording is unfair.

A lot of what you're saying is true. The sad part is that I fear you've propped yourself up as some sort of spiritual guru as a result. Why not point people to the Scriptures and let them know they can learn truth just like you did?

Can people ask you questions without you being dismissive of them?

Because if not, that's really unhealthy and is more cult-like than anything else.

If those who you influence are relying more on your "deeper understanding" than the Holy Spirit guiding them through the Scriptures, that is also concerning.

Yes, and if the questions being asked are designed for the purpose of propping up a particular pet doctrine, they are not honest questions to begin with, whether deliberate or unconscious. This is similar to how people will only see scriptures through a lens of their pet doctrine ( causing misinterpretation), in order to prop up their doctrine, rather than setting aside what they think they know long enough to allow scriptures to teach them right doctrine.

It's very important to ask the right questions...only then do we get the right answers. I've noticed that with the Lord, arriving at the right question to ask signifies that we're actually ready to hear the right answer. Or maybe better to say that we won't arrive at the right question until we're ready/willing to hear the right answer.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Oh the irony!!

 

[Lizbeth]

Uh huh.
Maybe we can assume the people you were being purposely vague about are the very few who understand him or hit like on his posts…

Here's the thing....it's not about "him", it's about the truth.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Here's the thing....it's not about "him", it's about the truth.

Yes, I know.

 

[Lizbeth]

Oh the irony!!

I've had no dog in this race from the beginning. I was willing to consider what was being taught, having liked things that were being said about holiness......but unfortunately simply found that the things being said about imputed righteousness contradict scripture and undermine a hugely vital foundation of the faith.

 

[mailmandan]

I've had no dog in this race from the beginning. I was willing to consider what was being taught, having liked things that were being said about holiness......but unfortunately simply found that the things being said about imputed righteousness contradict scripture and undermine a hugely vital foundation of the faith.

So it's not just me.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I've had no dog in this race from the beginning. I was willing to consider what was being taught, having liked things that were being said about holiness......but unfortunately simply found that the things being said about imputed righteousness contradict scripture and undermine a hugely vital foundation of the faith.

I do not agree that saying I am as righteous as Jesus is is a vital foundation of trusting Him.

 

[Lizbeth]

Except that I don't say that. I say with Abraham that God is able to perform that which He promised.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Except that I don't say that. I say with Abraham that God is able to perform that which He promised.

“found that the things being said about imputed righteousness”
“undermine a hugely vital foundation of the faith.”

Yet you have NOT said it….?
But you have. You’ve said a hugely vital foundation of trusting Him is imputed righteousness, which is to say, I am as righteous as Jesus.

 

[Episkopos]

Here's the thing....it's not about "him", it's about the truth.

Amen. And as long as we subordinate everything to the truth, in all humility...we may arrive at least at something beneficial to us as individuals.

We tend to see things according to our experiences. Faith demands that we take things beyond what we have seen or experienced...but how can we be sure what we are believing is real without the back-up of divine approbation? Are we the ones who choose where we are situated in the biblical narrative. As in..."repentance is for others...not me. I am located only where there are good verses!" So then we can be conditioned to believe something about ourselves by indoctrination....rather than what we have truly known.

Well to my mind this is simple.

We use the bible to believe things about God. And we use the Holy Spirit and power from God to give us the experiences that back up His word that informs us of our relationship to Him in truth.

God backs up His word in that when we have believed with ALL of our heart He translates us into the higher walk...just like He did with Enoch...although this takes on a spiritual aspect, not a physical one. It isn't for nothing that Enoch is cited in the "faith" chapter in Hebrews.

Paul said....

Col. 1:13 Who has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

And this is where there is a fork in the road.

There is a big difference between believing something about God and believing something about oneself. I would call the first faith and the second SELF-esteem.

Now in modern religious practice, the target of faith is usually self. Can we be convinced (by faith?) that WE have been translated into the kingdom realm...because Paul says we have? Take it by faith??? (or self-esteem)

Or do we look at the bible as what is available to us when God is the One in control rather than our positive beliefs about ourselves?



So then this is where experience comes in. Is it the same to believe you have something by faith or to have actually received it by experience? A testimony is not that you think you have something, but rather are testifying to what you have seen and experienced.

God is not mocked.The criteria for an actual testimony, is an actual experience of God's grace...an actual translation into the higher kingdom walk. All else is speculation. However, our part is indeed to believe that such a walk exists...but not to claim for ourselves what is not true OF US.

Here's how God sees this..

Ez. 13:3 “Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!”

This doesn't say woe to those who believe what God can do. No, what is wrong is to make believing about oneself.

The truth is that we will never receive something from God if we believe we already have it. So then to believe one already has the covering grace of God's righteousness without the miraculous walk that accompanies this simply means that you are no longer available to receive it in Spirit and truth.

Asking, seeking and knocking, is not to be thrown out in favour of "believing" you already have it by belief in yourself (self-esteem).

 

[Lizbeth]

“found that the things being said about imputed righteousness”
“undermine a hugely vital foundation of the faith.”

Yet you have NOT said it….?
But you have. You’ve said a hugely vital foundation of trusting Him is imputed righteousness, which is to say, I am as righteous as Jesus.

All I know is that the Lord has graciously chosen to not look at our sin but to reckon us as being righteous. And He can do that because we're not under the Law, but dead to it.....without the Law there is no transgression. And not to mention that as we have received of His Spirit....His Spirit sanctifies us. Who can explain it really.....it's like who can really explain how Jesus carried our sins on His body on the cross. The Lord is God and whatever He chooses to ordain, just IS, whether we understand it or not.

 

[Lizbeth]

Amen. And as long as we subordinate everything to the truth, in all humility...we may arrive at least at something beneficial to us as individuals.

We tend to see things according to our experiences. Faith demands that we take things beyond what we have seen or experienced...but how can we be sure what we are believing is real without the back-up of divine approbation? Are we the ones who choose where we are situated in the biblical narrative. As in..."repentance is for others...not me. I am located only where there are good verses!" So then we can be conditioned to believe something about ourselves by indoctrination....rather than what we have truly known.

Well to my mind this is simple.

We use the bible to believe things about God. And we use the Holy Spirit and power from God to give us the experiences that back up His word that informs us of our relationship to Him in truth.

God backs up His word in that when we have believed with ALL of our heart He translates us into the higher walk...just like He did with Enoch...although this takes on a spiritual aspect, not a physical one. It isn't for nothing that Enoch is cited in the "faith" chapter in Hebrews.

Paul said....

Col. 1:13 Who has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

And this is where there is a fork in the road.

There is a big difference between believing something about God and believing something about oneself. I would call the first faith and the second SELF-esteem.

Now in modern religious practice, the target of faith is usually self. Can we be convinced (by faith?) that WE have been translated into the kingdom realm...because Paul says we have? Take it by faith??? (or self-esteem)

Or do we look at the bible as what is available to us when God is the One in control rather than our positive beliefs about ourselves?



So then this is where experience comes in. Is it the same to believe you have something by faith or to have actually received it by experience? A testimony is not that you think you have something, but rather are testifying to what you have seen and experienced.

God is not mocked.The criteria for an actual testimony, is an actual experience of God's grace...an actual translation into the higher kingdom walk. All else is speculation. However, our part is indeed to believe that such a walk exists...but not to claim for ourselves what is not true OF US.

Here's how God sees this..

Ez. 13:3 “Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!”

This doesn't say woe to those who believe what God can do. No, what is wrong is to make believing about oneself.

The truth is that we will never receive something from God if we believe we already have it. So then to believe one already has the covering grace of God's righteousness without the miraculous walk that accompanies this simply means that you are no longer available to receive it in Spirit and truth.

Asking, seeking and knocking, is not to be thrown out in favour of "believing" you already have it by belief in yourself (self-esteem).

I just go by what the scriptures are saying brother....being taught by the Lord. Haven't belonged to a church in over twenty years. You are just plain upside down on this. Yes, we need to be on the narrow path of apprehending those things that have been laid up for us in heaven (imputed), but in the meantime we are covered by the Blood, through faith. Children need their parent's covering until they come of age. Otherwise no offspring would survive and Jesus would have died for nothing.

 

[Episkopos]

I just go by what the scriptures are saying brother....being taught by the Lord. Haven't belonged to a church in over twenty years. You are just plain upside down on this. Yes, we need to be on the narrow path of apprehending those things that have been laid up for us in heaven (imputed), but in the meantime we are covered by the Blood, through faith. Children need their parent's covering until they come of age. Otherwise no offspring would survive and Jesus would have died for nothing.

But children are also very good at pretending. We don't need to appropriate righteousness for ourselves to feel secure. God watches over us all.

To go by what the scriptures are saying is good...I do that very thing. What I won't do, however, is to appropriate the verses I like and reject the ones I don't like concerning me. I'm in God's hands. And you are in God's hands. No need to make outrageous claims for how righteous we are.

A righteous person doesn't think they are righteous....that's how righteousness works. And righteous is as righteous does...that's why we will only be judged by what we have DONE. If we are to be judged for a gift of righteousness by grace...it will be a harder judgment...not an easier one.

So then you must reconsider who is upside down here.

You have to look at others who believe the Bible as much as you do...but disconnect from the temptation to name it and claim it according to the modern religious culture...that is powerful enough to affect people who are no longer part of the institutional church. Its one thing to leave the system and quite another to get the system out of a person.

 

[Episkopos]

God does the reckoning upwardly ...we are only to reckon downwardly...we are dead. If we reckon ourselves upwardly that is self-righteousness. We NEVER reckon ourselves to be righteous...only dead.

And the flesh hates the idea of death. But there is a secret here. We embrace our death so that God takes us up into resurrection life. He is the one doing the justifying, then. Not just some bible reading formula...but an actual eternal life.