Death will be no more, due to no more births.

[Davy]

In Revelation 22:18 we see the promise that God will add the plagues that are written in this book to anyone who adds to the things (in this book).

Revelation 15:1 tells us the seven angels have the seven last plagues, then Revelation 16 describes these last plagues as bowls being poured out.

If these plagues are still future events then it would seem that those who have added in the past and are now dead would have to be resurrected in order to have the plagues added to them, however I don’t know of anyone who holds the view of people being resurrected in order to experience the plagues.

How can the plagues be added to someone who is now dead if they added to the book while they were alive?

The actual meaning of the Greek word for "plagues" in Rev.22:18 means 'calamity'. There are many types of calamities written of in God's Word that are not defined as plagues. So that verse is not specifically pointing to the Vials of Revelation 16 which is to occur in the final generation that will see Christ's future coming. It is only associating the plagues for reference of retribution upon those who add or take away from God's written Word.

 

[Davy]

Our perspective needs to be corrected, if we are going to correctly understand Mat. 24:34, or anything at all of Mat. ch. 24.

[34] Verily I say unto you, This generation [G-1075- nation] shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled

Q. What or Which generation of people shall see all the things that are prophesied of in Mat. 24?
1. The generation/nation of natural Jews in 33 AD.?
2. Both the generations/nations of natural Jews and Gentiles in 70AD.?
3. The New generation/nation of "New creatures" since Pentecost, called the born again Saints/Christians?

The Answer is #3.
1 Peter 2
[9] But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

No.3 is still not the proper answer per that written Matthew 24 Scripture.

Jesus revealed which generation when He said,

Matt 24:33-34
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
KJV

What "things"? The SIGNS of the end that Jesus gave in that Matthew 24 Chapter leading up to His future return, which His return to gather His saints was the final SIGN He gave there.

That means Jesus was pointing to the LAST generation on earth that will actually SEE His future coming.

 

[HealthyShape]

Are 40 years a short or long time to man?
Are 1000 years a short or long time to man?

I expected something better, honestly.

40 years is about one generation. If it is short or long depends on the context. 1000 years is a long time.

Now you answer this - is one day a short or long time? If one day is like 1000 years for God, what does it mean for you?

 

[HealthyShape]

You are missing the point. Israel's protection was God Himself. For the sin of apostasy, Israel's sentence by God was more than destruction, it was that they would become desolate, aka void of God's presence forever, aka "even until the consummation". Dan. 9:27.
With the nation of Israel losing God's protection and presence, the worldly armies (hosts), such as the Romans, were directed by satan to invade and conquer.

As you wish.

 

[WPM]

I expected something better, honestly.

40 years is about one generation. If it is short or long depends on the context. 1000 years is a long time.

Now you answer this - is one day a short or long time? If one day is like 1000 years for God, what does it mean for you?

"Near" to God is not near to us. "Far" to us is not far to God.

A basic understanding of “time” and “eternity” will explain what we are looking at in Scripture. The phrase “at hand” or “near” is taken from the single Greek word eggizō, and simply means “approaches.” It is not time-specific. It can mean immediate or distant future, like our English word. In fact, it carries the exact same sense as our English word. It all depends upon the setting and the context in view. It carries a broad meaning and does not in any way demand an imminent fulfilment. Other words like “quickly,” “shortly” and “near,” express time from God’s eternal standpoint, not man’s natural position. It is therefore wrong to force our dim earthly sense of time upon God. It is definitely foolish to build a whole theology upon that.

 

[HealthyShape]

Our perspective needs to be corrected, if we are going to correctly understand Mat. 24:34, or anything at all of Mat. ch. 24.

[34] Verily I say unto you, This generation [G-1075- nation] shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled

Q. What or Which generation of people shall see all the things that are prophesied of in Mat. 24?
1. The generation/nation of natural Jews in 33 AD.?
2. Both the generations/nations of natural Jews and Gentiles in 70AD.?
3. The New generation/nation of "New creatures" since Pentecost, called the born again Saints/Christians?

The Answer is #3.
1 Peter 2
[9] But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

The answer is #1.

 

[HealthyShape]

"Near" to God is not near to us. "Far" to us is not far to God.

A basic understanding of “time” and “eternity” will explain what we are looking at in Scripture. The phrase “at hand” or “near” is taken from the single Greek word eggizō, and simply means “approaches.” It is not time-specific. It can mean immediate or distant future, like our English word. In fact, it carries the exact same sense as our English word. It all depends upon the setting and the context in view. It carries a broad meaning and does not in any way demand an imminent fulfilment. Other words like “quickly,” “shortly” and “near,” express time from God’s eternal standpoint, not man’s natural position. It is therefore wrong to force our dim earthly sense of time upon God. It is definitely foolish to build a whole theology upon that.

"There are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Mt 16:27

It is the last hour...
1 John 2:18

Who was manifest in these last times for you...
1 Pt 1:20

..the ends of the ages have come.
1Cor 10:11

But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son...
Heb 1:2

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all die..."
1 Cor. 15:51

"Then we the living who remain shall be caught away together with them in the clouds..."
1 The 4:17

Etc, etc. You would need to rewrite a lot of the New Testament to dismiss their expectation of the imminent return of Christ and the end of the age. Mainstream scholarship agrees that the first church expected it to happen in their life time. It is said on so many places and in so many ways that your effort is quite futile. We need to conclude that they were either mistaken or it happened.

 

[WPM]

"There are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Mt 16:27

It is the last hour...
1 John 2:18

Who was manifest in these last times for you...
1 Pt 1:20

..the ends of the ages have come.
1Cor 10:11

But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son...
Heb 1:2

Etc, etc. You would need to rewrite a lot of the New Testament to dismiss their expectation of the imminent return of Christ and the end of the age. Mainstream scholarship agrees that the first church expected it to happen in their life time. It is said on so many places and in so many ways that your effort is quite futile. We need to conclude that they were either mistaken or it happened.

I already rebutted this and you already ignored it. That seems to be the way you engage.

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here (namely Peter, and James, and John), which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Mar 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here (namely Peter, and James, and John), which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
Mar 9:2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.

Luk 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here (namely Peter, and James, and John), which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
Luk 9:28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
Luk 9:29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
Luk 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
Luk 9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

While some give a good argument for Jesus speaking about Pentecost here, it seems more likely (in context) that He was talking about His transfiguration. There is nothing here that would suggest AD70, which Preterist are obsessed with.

or

..the ends of the ages have come.
1Cor 10:11

This is simply alluding to the last days that Jesus ushered in.

 

[HealthyShape]

I already rebutted this and you already ignored it. That seems to be the way you engage.

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here (namely Peter, and James, and John), which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Mar 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here (namely Peter, and James, and John), which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
Mar 9:2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.

Luk 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here (namely Peter, and James, and John), which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
Luk 9:28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
Luk 9:29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
Luk 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
Luk 9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

While some give a good argument for Jesus speaking about Pentecost here, it seems more likely (in context) that He was talking about His transfiguration. There is nothing here that would suggest AD70, which Preterist are obsessed with.


This is simply alluding to the last days that Jesus ushered in.

Ah, please, not this again. Some short vision for three people after a week is obviously not what Jesus meant. Even you must at least sense it is far-fetched. It does not match the context or the language used by Jesus. No matter how much coloring you use.

The context is the real coming:

"For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

And "some of you will not die before..." is really not a language used for one week.

---

P.S.: Presenting your hypothesis is not a rebuttal of mine or tearing it apart. Keep that in mind, please. Yes, I will ignore, also in future, the same poor arguments and "explanations" repeated over and over again by various people. Or else I would need to answer them 10x a week, while I need to also work and do other things. I am waiting for something better than that, something I have not read many times already. Both sides must find the conversation interesting or at least challenging a bit and this is boring.

 

[Earburner]

But that "figurative 1000 years" idea is nowhere written there. Instead, the 1,000 years idea is written as a 'literal period' that only begins at Christ's future 2nd coming, as per Revelation 20.

If you would read/study the context of KJV 2 Peter ch. 3, you will definitely see that there are two verses that describe the 1000 years as being about the Lord's plan of salvation through faith in Jesus.

We are to understand that period of time of "a thousand years" to be figurative, because neither Jesus, the angels or any man knows the time of Jesus' return, except God the Father.

So then, as God the Father kept Jesus' First coming a secret, shrouded in a mystery, so also is Jesus' sudden return in flaming fire being kept a secret in a mystery.
[8] But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. [Read that again, and notice that it's about God's thoughts and understanding about time and not ours. Isa. 55:8-9]
[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise [of salvation], as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance [for the gift of His salvation].

[13] Nevertheless we, according to his promise [of salvation], look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
[14] Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
[15] And account [G2233-think, esteem] that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

Q. When did the plan of God's salvation BEGIN for all who hear and respond to His calling of repentance to usward?
A. In the days of Jesus' First appearance, who came in the likeness of our mortal flesh.

 

[Earburner]

No.3 is still not the proper answer per that written Matthew 24 Scripture.

Jesus revealed which generation when He said,

Matt 24:33-34
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
KJV

What "things"? The SIGNS of the end that Jesus gave in that Matthew 24 Chapter leading up to His future return, which His return to gather His saints was the final SIGN He gave there.

That means Jesus was pointing to the LAST generation on earth that will actually SEE His future coming.

Indeed, ever since Jesus ascended into heaven, every generation of born again Christians have thought that they could be the generation to see Jesus' Glorious return.
But, did you notice WHO IT WAS that has been LOOKING for His return while others could care less, these past 2025 years??

Was it the Jews?
Nope! To them Jesus was a failure, and have been looking for someone else.

Was it the Gentiles?
Nope! They have better things to do than to hang around some Savior, thinking about God.

Was it the born again Christians?
Indeed it WAS,...AND IT STILL IS!!
1 Peter 2:9.

 

[rwb]

I already rebutted this and you already ignored it. That seems to be the way you engage.

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here (namely Peter, and James, and John), which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Mar 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here (namely Peter, and James, and John), which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
Mar 9:2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.

Luk 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here (namely Peter, and James, and John), which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
Luk 9:28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
Luk 9:29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
Luk 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
Luk 9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

While some give a good argument for Jesus speaking about Pentecost here, it seems more likely (in context) that He was talking about His transfiguration. There is nothing here that would suggest AD70, which Preterist are obsessed with.

I agree both Pentecost and Christ's transfiguration make good arguments. I believe another argument for which I hold is also valid and
comes from how the Greek word translated 'see' is defined.

εἴδω eídō, i'-do - be aware, behold, × can (+ not tell), consider, (have) know(-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, wish, wot.

IOW the verse can be read - some standing there would not die until they have come to know/understand/perceive the Kingdom of God has come. Seeing, NOT with physical sight, but with mental or heartfelt conviction or eyes of faith. Unlike the Greek word ὀπτάνομαι optánomai, op-tan'-om-ahee that is translated "they shall see" with eyes wide open, or physical sight the Son of man coming in the clouds.

This is simply alluding to the last days that Jesus ushered in.

Exactly! The 'last time/times' is properly understood as the 'ends of, last, latter end, lowest, uttermost'. The ends of time Christ ushered in is what John symbolically writes "a/the thousand years". Symbolizing time given the church on earth to proclaim the Gospel of the Kingdom of God unto all the nations of the earth that the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven would be complete. When the ends of time/a thousand years have been fulfilled then time for this earth shall be no longer.

 

[WPM]

I agree both Pentecost and Christ's transfiguration make good arguments. I believe another argument for which I hold is also valid and
comes from how the Greek word translated 'see' is defined.

εἴδω eídō, i'-do - be aware, behold, × can (+ not tell), consider, (have) know(-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, wish, wot.

IOW the verse can be read - some standing there would not die until they have come to know/understand/perceive the Kingdom of God has come. Seeing, NOT with physical sight, but with mental or heartfelt conviction or eyes of faith. Unlike the Greek word ὀπτάνομαι optánomai, op-tan'-om-ahee that is translated "they shall see" with eyes wide open, or physical sight the Son of man coming in the clouds.


Exactly! The 'last time/times' is properly understood as the 'ends of, last, latter end, lowest, uttermost'. The ends of time Christ ushered in is what John symbolically writes "a/the thousand years". Symbolizing time given the church on earth to proclaim the Gospel of the Kingdom of God unto all the nations of the earth that the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven would be complete. When the ends of time/a thousand years have been fulfilled then time for this earth shall be no longer.

It is posts like this why I love such discussion forums. It gives you a broader perspective.

 

[HealthyShape]

εἴδω eídō, i'-do - be aware, behold, × can (+ not tell), consider, (have) know(-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, wish, wot.

IOW the verse can be read - some standing there would not die until they have come to know/understand/perceive the Kingdom of God has come. Seeing, NOT with physical sight, but with mental or heartfelt conviction or eyes of faith. Unlike the Greek word ὀπτάνομαι optánomai, op-tan'-om-ahee that is translated "they shall see" with eyes wide open, or physical sight the Son of man coming in the clouds.

Do you apply it also to verses like "every eye will see Him" etc? In that case you spiritualized the second coming and therefore you made it easy to happen in the first century, anyway.

Probably not something you intended, but it would be the same argument you used for this verse.

 

[WPM]

If you would read/study the context of KJV 2 Peter ch. 3, you will definitely see that there are two verses that describe the 1000 years as being about the Lord's plan of salvation through faith in Jesus.

We are to understand that period of time of "a thousand years" to be figurative, because neither Jesus, the angels or any man knows the time of Jesus' return, except God the Father.

So then, as God the Father kept Jesus' First coming a secret, shrouded in a mystery, so also is Jesus' sudden return in flaming fire being kept a secret in a mystery.
[8] But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. [Read that again, and notice that it's about God's thoughts and understanding about time and not ours. Isa. 55:8-9]
[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise [of salvation], as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance [for the gift of His salvation].

[13] Nevertheless we, according to his promise [of salvation], look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
[14] Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
[15] And account [G2233-think, esteem] that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

Q. When did the plan of God's salvation BEGIN for all who hear and respond to His calling of repentance to usward?
A. In the days of Jesus' First appearance, who came in the likeness of our mortal flesh.

I would differ slightly. His promise here is His "coming." The long-suffering is salvation.

 

[HealthyShape]

"A most strange and prodigious thing appeared; for upon the first day of the siege, there appeared to many men in the city, as they were looking upwards, something like a light of a continuing flame, and of a great and bright blaze; and this they say, continued for an entire day, and shone exceedingly; yet it was not near them, but distant; and it was in the air, and of a round compass: and some saw it to be of a small compass, and in manner of a round circle, but others that were at a distance, say it was of a long length; and some say it made a noise in the air, as of a trumpet; and some say it moved up and down, and some say they saw it to be in the southern quarter."
From The Jewish War, Book 6, Chapter 5, Section 3 (Whiston):

"There were also many prodigies seen in the heavens; among which were these:—there was a very great light seen in the heavens, and as it were the figure of a sword; and there were the voices of men sounded in the air."
From Antiquities of the Jews, Book 17, Chapter 10

This corresponds much more to the words of Jesus than the transfiguration or the Pentecost hypotheses. Sword = cross.

 

[WPM]

"A most strange and prodigious thing appeared; for upon the first day of the siege, there appeared to many men in the city, as they were looking upwards, something like a light of a continuing flame, and of a great and bright blaze; and this they say, continued for an entire day, and shone exceedingly; yet it was not near them, but distant; and it was in the air, and of a round compass: and some saw it to be of a small compass, and in manner of a round circle, but others that were at a distance, say it was of a long length; and some say it made a noise in the air, as of a trumpet; and some say it moved up and down, and some say they saw it to be in the southern quarter."
From The Jewish War, Book 6, Chapter 5, Section 3 (Whiston):

"There were also many prodigies seen in the heavens; among which were these:—there was a very great light seen in the heavens, and as it were the figure of a sword; and there were the voices of men sounded in the air."
From Antiquities of the Jews, Book 17, Chapter 10

This corresponds much more to the words of Jesus than the transfiguration or the Pentecost hypotheses. Sword = cross.

Jesus did not come physically as He promised. No one was physically resurrected or judged. The earth was not delivered from the bondage of corruption. Sin, and sinners, dying and crying, Satan and demons were not destroyed. To think otherwise is delusional.

 

[HealthyShape]

Jesus did not come physically as He promised. No one was physically resurrected or judged. The earth was not delivered from the bondage of corruption. Sin, and sinners, dying and crying, Satan and demons were not destroyed. To think otherwise is delusional.

Where did Jesus promise to come "physically"? Why do you dismiss the fulfillment much more closer to the words of Jesus, but stick to weird explanations like transfiguration which do not fit the prophecies at all? Does not make any sense.

Josephus even mentions the sign of the Son of Man in the sky (even though not recognizing it and calling it to be like a sword), exactly as Jesus said.

 

[rwb]

Do you apply it also to verses like "every eye will see Him" etc? In that case you spiritualized the second coming and therefore you made it easy to happen in the first century, anyway.

Probably not something you intended, but it would be the same argument you used for this verse.

'See', in reference to the Second Coming, as I've shown in post #92 has been translated from a Greek word which means with physical sight. That's not the same word used to define mentally seeing through eyes of faith of those who were "standing there". How will every eye physically see Christ when He comes again, even those who have physically died? Those still physically alive, both saints and unbelievers will literally/physically see Christ appear in the clouds. Those who have died in unbelief shall also literally/physically see Him when they are called to stand before God at the GWTJ. The saints who have died shall also see Christ's visible return when they are bodily resurrected to meet the Lord in the air.

 

[HealthyShape]

'See', in reference to the Second Coming, as I've shown in post #92 has been translated from a Greek word which means with physical sight. That's not the same word used to define mentally seeing through eyes of faith of those who were "standing there". How will every eye physically see Christ when He comes again, even those who have physically died? Those still physically alive, both saints and unbelievers will literally/physically see Christ appear in the clouds. Those who have died in unbelief shall also literally/physically see Him when they are called to stand before God at the GWTJ. The saints who have died shall also see Christ's visible return when they are bodily resurrected to meet the Lord in the air.

Well, you just presented the common futurist eschatological view. But fine.