Deleted

[Lifelong_sinner]

Bnmcsd

 

[Raccoon1010]

Romans 9:27 says “And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved.”

who or how many are a remnant? In reformed theology, this would be what we call the “elect”. How many “elect” are there? We dont know, and i suspect that is intentional. This verse shows that the majority of mankind will go to hell.

what i get out of this verse is that it follows a theme from noah thru revelations that when Jesus said few will make it into Heaven, it really will be a small amount. We are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Romans 9:27 is the motivation for that fear and trembling. I think paul understood the seriousness of the words he wrote. I think some of what he wrote bothered him. We see this same mentality from john calvin and the doctrine of election. It bothered him greatly. Its not wrong to worry about ourselves nor our friends, family, and kids. Will any of our families make it? This is the motivation, designed to shake us out of our apathy.

This sounds more likely that it was concerning the Jews that rejected the Messiah, I don't think it is related to the elect.

 

[Lambano]

This sounds more likely that it was concerning the Jews that rejected the Messiah, I don't think it is related to the elect.

Devin, this is a point that often gets lost. It is about "election", but we've lost sight of what "election" is biblically.

Israel was God's chosen people. For you are a people holy to the LORD your God, and the LORD has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. (Deuteronomy 14:2) Her vocation is to be a light to all the nations of the earth. “I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.” (Isaiah 49:6b) This is what "election" really is, biblically.

Romans 9:27 has to be read in the context of all of Romans 9-11. In this section, Paul deals with the question of why Israel rejected her Messiah, and what this meant to Israel's own election and vocation. I ask, then, has God rejected his people? May it never become so! (Romans 11:1a) Since the house-churches at Rome were a mix of Jewish-Christians and Gentile Christians, this was an important question to his audience and how they would relate to each other as God's people. It was also important to Paul personally, both as a Jew himself, and because the question reflects on God's own faithfulness to His promises.

Chapter 9 relates that from the call of Abraham, through the Jacob/Esau split, to the separation of Judah from the northern tribes, to the Babylonian exile, God has periodically redefined who His people are. That's what the verse in question is all about. And make no mistake about it, Paul believes those who follow Christ ARE God's people, God's "elect", whether Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female. (Galatians 3:26-29) You can see it all through the Pauline corpus.

Now, how that applies to God's people today, whether we are now going through a shake-down, a redefinition of who we are, that is a separate question.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

When you read the whole chapter, how anyone can deny calvinism is beyond me.

 

[ChristisGod]

When you read the whole chapter, how anyone can deny calvinism is beyond me.

its a remnant of Jews and not all mankind.

context..............

 

[GISMYS_7]

When you read the whole chapter, how anyone can deny calvinism is beyond me.

Beyond you???? Do a google search on Calvin and learn who and what he was!!!

 

[Nancy]

Most people I know over the decades who have turned away from the world to Christ seemed to come in kicking and screaming. Hell is a great deterrent. How many here came to become believers because they "love God" or are afraid of an eternity in hell? Love God=OBEY Him...do we obey Him because we "love Him" or because we are afraid of punishment? Very few indeed.
And, I no longer "expect" to be in heaven, or with The Lord. It's like the lottery, luck of the draw!!!! I guess only those God "FORCES" into church will be taken to heaven. The rest are, well, just collateral damage. Kindling for hell. I've accepted this, worst feeling in the world...no hope left, rather be dead.

 

[Raccoon1010]

Most people I know over the decades who have turned away from the world to Christ seemed to come in kicking and screaming. Hell is a great deterrent. How many here came to become believers because they "love God" or are afraid of an eternity in hell? Love God=OBEY Him...do we obey Him because we "love Him" or because we are afraid of punishment? Very few indeed.
And, I no longer "expect" to be in heaven, or with The Lord. It's like the lottery, luck of the draw!!!! I guess only those God "FORCES" into church will be taken to heaven. The rest are, well, just collateral damage. Kindling for hell. I've accepted this, worst feeling in the world...no hope left, rather be dead.

I think more people are saved then some people believe. I see it in the book of Revelation:

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

 

[Cassandra]

Most people I know over the decades who have turned away from the world to Christ seemed to come in kicking and screaming. Hell is a great deterrent. How many here came to become believers because they "love God" or are afraid of an eternity in hell? Love God=OBEY Him...do we obey Him because we "love Him" or because we are afraid of punishment? Very few indeed.
And, I no longer "expect" to be in heaven, or with The Lord. It's like the lottery, luck of the draw!!!! I guess only those God "FORCES" into church will be taken to heaven. The rest are, well, just collateral damage. Kindling for hell. I've accepted this, worst feeling in the world...no hope left, rather be dead.

God bless you, Nancy!! You post reminded me of the Passover song "Dayenu" . If all we have is the ability to love the Lord and be thankful to Him for all things,and not to see an afterlife, "Dayenu" (It would have been enough.) And it would've been.

He sings the stanzas on the Egyptians, Torah, and the Sabbath. Here is the wiki entry on the song:

Dayenu - Wikipedia

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

I think more people are saved then some people believe. I see it in the book of Revelation:

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The timelines of this passage takes place after the Tribulation, not before. This passage is describing the number of people who will end up repenting as a result of being humbled by the Tribulation, not the number of true Christians that exist right now. As it stands, Jesus' true flock is small, exactly as He said it would be in Luk. 12:32. That's why His following is consistently referred to as the elect throughout the NT.

 

[Raccoon1010]

The timelines of this passage takes place after the Tribulation, not before. This passage is describing the number of people who will end up repenting as a result of being humbled by the Tribulation, not the number of true Christians that exist right now. As it stands, Jesus' true flock is small, exactly as He said it would be in Luk. 12:32. That's why His following is consistently referred to as the elect throughout the NT.

I don't believe what you are teaching. The trib in Revelation was shortly to come to pass around 2000 years ago.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

The tribulation hasnt taken place yet.

 

[MatthewG]

The bride of Christ had their heads beheaded and killed and murdered, harassed and all the while were encouraged to continue to watch and wait for the return of Christ. (Truly Awe inspiring the spotless, blameless bride of Christ).

Nothing like they experienced is happening today in my opinion but that doesn’t mean people don’t get murdered or harassed, and many people continue to say watch for Christ now in America… America and Israel are two different places and if you read some of what Jesus says and revelation they would have events happening that would never be so great again… and I believe it to be all over now today.

All people have the choice to believe, follow after Jesus or not… and say I don’t need God or Jesus in my life. We are to live in peace with all men, and to love God and love others. If people don’t want nothing to do with God does that mean we should cut them off from us?

Those who believe in faith become children of God. Those who do not believe in faith are not apart of Christ.

 

[Lambano]

When you read the whole chapter, how anyone can deny calvinism is beyond me.

That's because Paul wrote the letter as a 1st-Century Jewish-Christian prophet to a mixed 1st-Century Jewish- and Gentile-Christian audience to address 1st-Century theological concerns, and you're reading it as a 21st-Century man through the eyes of 16th-Century Protestant Christians who had 16th-Century theological concerns with how 16th-Century Catholic Christians practiced Christianity fifteen centuries after Paul wrote his letter.

 

[farouk]

That's because Paul wrote the letter as a 1st-Century Jewish-Christian prophet to a mixed 1st-Century Jewish- and Gentile-Christian audience to address 1st-Century theological concerns, and you're reading it as a 21st-Century man through the eyes of 16th-Century Protestant Christians who had 16th-Century theological concerns with how 16th-Century Catholic Christians practiced Christianity fifteen centuries after Paul wrote his letter.

Ephesians 2 is similarly a compelling passage.....