Did Jesus return around 70 AD?

[SeekTruth]

What I implied in that post with the Scripture I submitted, I'm not applying that to you throughout. I am not painting that with a broad brush. Only in regard to what you said when you said---"What if Jesus returned around 70 AD, took all his followers, and brought them to a better world? And the people who were left in this world are the unworthy, and we are the descendants of the unworthy?"

As to Matthew 24, in my view, some of it has been fulfilled, some of it hasn't.

BTW, keep in mind what you already admitted in the OP---I know this is a controversial matter. I know that many here are now going to call it pathetic

In the event you get offended by what some of us say, you should already be prepared for that and not expect the opposite instead--that it's not a controversial matter. Keeping in mind, no one forced you to start this thread.

Flavius Josephus about the events around 70 AD: "Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable; were it not related by those that saw it; and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals. For, before sun setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities."

 

[SeekTruth]

What if we are the descandants of those who were left in this world

 

[grafted branch]

What if we are the descandants of those who were left in this world

Well, we are descendants of those who were left in this world, and we are descendants of those who obeyed and fled Jerusalem before it was destroyed.

The destruction of Jerusalem was the final closing out of the old covenant. That covenant was no longer valid at the cross but it was allowed to be utilized by believers until 70AD.

Acts 21:20And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

Acts 21 took place approximately 59AD almost 30 years after the cross.

 

[SeekTruth]

Well, we are descendants of those who were left in this world, and we are descendants of those who obeyed and fled Jerusalem before it was destroyed.

The destruction of Jerusalem was the final closing out of the old covenant. That covenant was no longer valid at the cross but it was allowed to be utilized by believers until 70AD.

Acts 21:20And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

Acts 21 took place approximately 59AD almost 30 years after the cross.

Tell me who is Babylon according to you

 

[grafted branch]

Tell me who is Babylon according to you

Old Covenant Jerusalem.

 

[SeekTruth]

Old Covenant Jerusalem.

Thus you believe the destruction of Babylon described in Revelation refers to 70 AD. Thus Jesus returned around 70 AD.

 

[David1701]

What if Jesus returned around 70 AD, took all his followers, and brought them to a better world? And the people who were left in this world are the unworthy, and we are the descendants of the unworthy?

Umm, no, that didn't happen.

Matt. 13:24-30 (MKJV)
24 He put out another parable to them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed darnel among the wheat and went his way.
26 But when the blade had sprung up and had produced fruit, then the darnel also appeared.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said to him, Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? Then where have the darnel come from?
28 He said to them, An enemy has done this. The servants said to him, Then do you want us to go and gather them up?
29 But he said, No, lest while you gather up the darnel you also root up the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest. And in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, First gather together the darnel and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my granary.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Thus you believe the destruction of Babylon described in Revelation refers to 70 AD. Thus Jesus returned around 70 AD.

LOL. Of course not. That is an inaccurate conclusion. Revelation 18 does not describe the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, nor does it teach that Christ returned at that time. The claim that these prophecies were fulfilled in the first century is the false doctrine of Preterism. Revelation must be interpreted in its proper biblical and spiritual context rather than forcing its prophecies into the events of AD 70. The destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 does not mean that all the prophecies concerning Christ’s coming and the judgment of Babylon were fulfilled then.

 

[Davidpt]

and we are descendants of those who obeyed and fled Jerusalem before it was destroyed.

Great point. That alone debunks what @SeekTruth has been proposing.

 

[Davidpt]

Umm, no, that didn't happen.

Matt. 13:24-30 (MKJV)
24 He put out another parable to them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed darnel among the wheat and went his way.
26 But when the blade had sprung up and had produced fruit, then the darnel also appeared.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said to him, Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? Then where have the darnel come from?
28 He said to them, An enemy has done this. The servants said to him, Then do you want us to go and gather them up?
29 But he said, No, lest while you gather up the darnel you also root up the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest. And in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, First gather together the darnel and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my granary.

It wouldn't surprise me if @SeekTruth applies that to 70 AD as well. Therefore, your point will likely go over his head.

 

[SeekTruth]

LOL. Of course not. That is an inaccurate conclusion. Revelation 18 does not describe the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, nor does it teach that Christ returned at that time. The claim that these prophecies were fulfilled in the first century is the false doctrine of Preterism. Revelation must be interpreted in its proper biblical and spiritual context rather than forcing its prophecies into the events of AD 70. The destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 does not mean that all the prophecies concerning Christ’s coming and the judgment of Babylon were fulfilled then.

Matthew 24:1-3
And coming out from the temple, Jesus was going along, and His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. And He answered and said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.” Now as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”

Matthew 24 is obvious. Why dont you accept it? Jesus points to the second temple, prophecies it will be destroyed, and the next verses (the whole chapter) puts the destruction of the second temple in the context of Jesus' second coming.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Matthew 24:1-3
And coming out from the temple, Jesus was going along, and His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. And He answered and said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.” Now as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”

Matthew 24 is obvious. Why dont you accept it? Jesus points to the second temple, prophecies it will be destroyed, and the next verses (the whole chapter) puts the destruction of the second temple in the context of Jesus' second coming.

Ahhh… you must be new here. I have explained my position on this subject in previous threads, and I’m not going to repeat the entire study here. Feel free to use the forum’s search function to find my earlier discussions.

However, here is a brief summary of my position in response to your post above:

You are assuming that because Jesus referred to the temple buildings, He must have been speaking exclusively about a physical temple, physical stones, and its destruction in 70 AD. However, that is not what Christ actually prophesied.

In Matthew 24:1–3, the disciples were still looking at the temple from their earthly understanding. They naturally thought in terms of the physical temple and stones, but they had not yet fully understood the spiritual significance of Christ's death, resurrection, and the establishment of His New Testament congregation through the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit.

The temple was a figure of the congregation of God, starting with the Old testament and the stones represent the people who make up that congregation. The old covenant congregation was falling because they rejected Jesus Christ, the Messiah, the Prince. Christ took the kingdom from them and gave it to a people bringing forth its fruits (Matthew 21:43). The old order had to fall before Christ established His New Testament congregation, which is now built with living stones (1 Peter 2:5). Selah!

Notice that Christ did not merely speak about the physical destruction of a buildings. His words carry a spiritual significance concerning the fall of the old covenant congregation and the establishment of the new. The physical temple was a shadow of something greater.

Furthermore, I do not interpret the remainder of Matthew 24 as a prophecy limited to the events of 70 AD, involving Roman soldiers, the suffering of mothers and children, and the destruction of Jerusalem. Christ used the language of Judea, the temple, and the surrounding events to communicate spiritual truths concerning His New Testament congregation. The prophecy extends to the spiritual falling away and judgment of the New Testament congregation before His Second Coming.

Therefore, the real question is not simply whether the physical temple which was no longer holy destroyed in 70 AD. Of course, it was. The question is whether that historical event exhausts the meaning of Christ's prophecy. I believe it does not. We must examine the spiritual significance of the passage and its connection to the rest of Scripture, including 1 Peter 2:5, Matthew 21:43, and the warnings concerning the falling away before Christ's return.

You say Matthew 24 is obvious, but are you considering the spiritual meaning of the temple and its stones, or are you reading the prophecy primarily through the physical events of 70 AD? That is where our interpretations differ. In other words, you lacks spiritual discernment.

Want to learn more? Check my previous posts on other threads via search box.

 

[Davidpt]

Matthew 24:1-3
And coming out from the temple, Jesus was going along, and His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. And He answered and said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.” Now as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”

Matthew 24 is obvious. Why dont you accept it? Jesus points to the second temple, prophecies it will be destroyed, and the next verses (the whole chapter) puts the destruction of the second temple in the context of Jesus' second coming.

That might be true if the holy place in verse 15 is meaning the 2nd temple before it was destroyed. Except it isn't. It's meaning the temple meant in 2 Thessalonians 2:4, and that that temple is not meaning the 2nd temple before it was destroyed, nor is it meaning a third temple that gets built in the future. Yet it is meaning the third temple, nonetheless. But not in a literal sense, but in a spiritual sense. IOW, the fleeing mentioned in Matthew 24 after verse 15 is not meaning in the literal sense. It is meaning in a spiritual sense and is involving fleeing spiritual apostasy.

While OTOH, the fleeing mentioned in Luke 21 after verse 20 is meaning in the literal sense and involved fleeing the wrath of 70 AD. But I don't expect you to understand because even some Amils who are not Preterists don't understand as well. Even though they clearly know that verses 23-26 in Matthew 24 do not align with 70 AD but aligns with the time of satan with all power and lying wonders in 2 Thessalonians 2, which then can't be divorced from 2 Thessalonians 2:4. And that Matthew 24:23 begins with a 'Then', where in the Greek typically means at that same time. Therefore linking it directly with verses 15-21.

It is utterly absurd if Matthew 24 records the 2nd coming in the end of this age, which it clearly does, that the 2nd coming can occur without it even involving the third temple per 2 Thessalonians 2:4 first.

 

[Davidpt]

In other words, you lacks spiritual discernment.

Not only him but other Amils on this board as well. But not meaning you in this case. Plus numerous Premils as well, even if they do correctly place verses 15-26 in the future, but then take everything in the literal sense pertaining to those verses rather than in a spiritual sense.

 

[JimKnox]

Unless John lied to us in Revelation 13.

I am hoping that you simply overlooked the fact that John wrote Revelation around 90-96 A.D. and couldn't possibly have been referring to those events 20 years prior.

 

[JimKnox]

Jesus came in Judgement on apostate Israel in 70AD.

Rev 1:1The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

7“Look, he is coming with the clouds,”[b]
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him

I believe that the beast is an demonic being influencing Rome and its leaders in the first century

Rev 13:They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.

I also believe that Babylon the great city was Jerusalem

Rev 11:8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified

Rev 17
6 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled. 18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

The woman is "the great city" and the beast Rome destroyed her for Gods purpose

ALL of those passages were written more than 20 years AFTER the fall of the temple in 70 A.D.
Therefore, your entire post is false.

 

[JimKnox]

Flavius Josephus:
"Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable; were it not related by those that saw it; and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals. For, before sun setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities."

That is easily explained since certain cloud formations have been proven to reflect images unseen from many miles past the horizon.
It was NOT the return of Christ and His armies since Jesus Himself said EVERY eye will see Him; but there is no record of this event in China or Japan, who are known to keep meticulous records; especially of heavenly apparition.
Therefore, it was NOT Christ but instead was possibly an unusual but common weather event.

 

[sondring7]

Matthew 10:23
But whenever they persecute you in this city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.

Jesus gives direct instructions to his twelve disciples for their mission trip in Judea/Galilee, stating that his coming would occur before they could even complete preaching to every city in Israel.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
When did Matt 24:21 happen ?