Divorcement? dead to the Law by the body of Christ?

[VictoryinJesus]

Matthew 19:7-8 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? [8] He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

“...because of the hardness or your hearts.” Moses suffered you to put away your wives. Odd, those Jesus Christ is speaking to —the Pharisees trying to tempt Him as those in the wilderness) Christ says “because of the hardness of your hearts” even back with Moses “for the hardness of your heart he wrote this precept.” In foreshadowing God removing a heart of stone and giving a new heart, a new spirit. Mark 10:2-5 And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him. [3] And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? [4] And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away. [5] And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.

Countless times God warns against the “hardened heart” even declaring God will remove the “heart of Stone” and give a heart of flesh, writing His Laws on the heart and they will do them. God said He would remove the heart of stone and give a new heart, a new mind, and a new spirit.

A few questions are: did God give Israel a bill of divorcement or not? In looking up what google had to say on the matter only led to more questions in debating if God ever said they would come to Christ and the New Covenant... Of course (Jeremiah 3:8) speaks of the divorcement given yet goes on to urge Israel to turn and return to God. As the verses that speak of the vail remains til this day but once removed, and they turn, God will heal them. Can’t find it right now but there is a verse that says they will look (provoked) to jealousy and ask for God to do for them what He has done for others?

of course there is this passage Deuteronomy 24:1-4 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. [2] And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife. [3] And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife; [4] Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the Lord : and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Romans 7:1-4 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? [2] For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. [3] So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress:but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. [4] Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

from Deuteronomy upon a bill of divorce ...she may go marry another.

If her latter husband sends her out...or divorces her..or hates her...or dies...Her former husband which sent her away cannot and will not take her back. In relation to “wherefore, my brethren, you also are become dead to the Law by the body of Christ; that you should be married to another ...and bring forth fruit unto God.”

“...you also have become dead to the Law by the body of Christ; that you should marry another.” ...2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

Regardless of whether God gave Israel a bill of divorcement is she included in “we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead.” And if “all were dead” “you also dead to the Law by the body of Christ” ...she is loosed from the Law of her husband. When loosed from the Law of her husband ...all become dead to the Law by the body of Christ ...how is Israel called the wife of God and yet the NT church the husband is Christ? How can “all were dead” and “you also dead to the Law by the body of Christ” ...return to the former husband she was loosed from: the Law of her husband. A widow indeed rather than “I am no widow.” Revelation 18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.


“Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away. [5] And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.”

 

[Enoch111]

...did God give Israel a bill of divorcement or not?

There is no question that Deuteronomy 24:1 is an integral part of the Torah, and the Torah was given by God to Moses, and Moses presented it to Israel. Nothing originated with Moses, even though Moses is shown as the one who presented the Law to Israel.

What should be understood from the comments of Christ is that the Jews had been abusing this permission to divorce, which was given for only ONE reason (as Christ Himself taught). So the "uncleanness" mentioned in Deuteronomy 24:1 is the same as "fornication" (adultery) in Matthew 19:9. While the Gospel of Mark does not include this, we are to take all the Gospels together and then see what is said.

The Jews were using any old excuse to divorce their wifes, but that is not what was allowed in the Old Covenant. In fact we are told in the Old Testament that God hates divorce.

 

[GodsGrace]

Matthew 19:7-8 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? [8] He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

“...because of the hardness or your hearts.” Moses suffered you to put away your wives. Odd, those Jesus Christ is speaking to —the Pharisees trying to tempt Him as those in the wilderness) Christ says “because of the hardness of your hearts” even back with Moses “for the hardness of your heart he wrote this precept.” In foreshadowing God removing a heart of stone and giving a new heart, a new spirit. Mark 10:2-5 And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him. [3] And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? [4] And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away. [5] And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.

Countless times God warns against the “hardened heart” even declaring God will remove the “heart of Stone” and give a heart of flesh, writing His Laws on the heart and they will do them. God said He would remove the heart of stone and give a new heart, a new mind, and a new spirit.

A few questions are: did God give Israel a bill of divorcement or not? In looking up what google had to say on the matter only led to more questions in debating if God ever said they would come to Christ and the New Covenant... Of course (Jeremiah 3:8) speaks of the divorcement given yet goes on to urge Israel to turn and return to God. As the verses that speak of the vail remains til this day but once removed, and they turn, God will heal them. Can’t find it right now but there is a verse that says they will look (provoked) to jealousy and ask for God to do for them what He has done for others?

of course there is this passage Deuteronomy 24:1-4 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. [2] And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife. [3] And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife; [4] Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the Lord : and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Romans 7:1-4 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? [2] For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. [3] So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress:but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. [4] Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

from Deuteronomy upon a bill of divorce ...she may go marry another.

If her latter husband sends her out...or divorces her..or hates her...or dies...Her former husband which sent her away cannot and will not take her back. In relation to “wherefore, my brethren, you also are become dead to the Law by the body of Christ; that you should be married to another ...and bring forth fruit unto God.”

“...you also have become dead to the Law by the body of Christ; that you should marry another.” ...2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

Regardless of whether God gave Israel a bill of divorcement is she included in “we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead.” And if “all were dead” “you also dead to the Law by the body of Christ” ...she is loosed from the Law of her husband. When loosed from the Law of her husband ...all become dead to the Law by the body of Christ ...how is Israel called the wife of God and yet the NT church the husband is Christ? How can “all were dead” and “you also dead to the Law by the body of Christ” ...return to the former husband she was loosed from: the Law of her husband. A widow indeed rather than “I am no widow.” Revelation 18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.


“Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away. [5] And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.”

God did NOT give Moses the teaching on divorce.
Jesus brought the law back to how it was in the beginning in Genesis.

It is the firm understanding of some theologians that:

NOT EVERY LAW was given by God.
Some of the law was man-made.


Have you read all the laws in the Torah?
Do you need proof that some of it was NOT WRITTEN BY GOD?

Many problem arise due to this belief.
The bible is inspired...
Men wrote it.
God didn't sit at his computer and type it out.


Inspire(v. t.)

To infuse into; to affect, as with a superior or supernatural influence; to fill with what animates, enlivens, or exalts; to communicate inspiration to; as, to inspire a child with sentiments of virtue; to inspire a person to do extraordinary feats.

source: definitions.com

 

[Enoch111]

God did NOT give Moses the teaching on divorce.

Did Christ quote from Deuteronomy and call it the Word of God? You can either believe Him or believe those who attack the Torah, and think it is a mishmash of divine inspiration and the ideas of men. Or worse yet, it is simply a purely human invention.

 

[GodsGrace]

Did Christ quote from Deuteronomy and call it the Word of God? You can either believe Him or believe those who attack the Torah, and think it is a mishmash of divine inspiration and the ideas of men. Or worse yet, it is simply a purely human invention.

I DID NOT say that all of Deuteronomy is of Moses.

Jesus DID correct what Moses had allowed in Deuteronomy.
Because men's hearts were hardened?
In Romans God left the men whose hearts had been hardened to THEMSELVES,,,He did not give them a new rule to suit them.
Romans 1:24

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I DID NOT say that all of Deuteronomy is of Moses.

Jesus DID correct what Moses had allowed in Deuteronomy.
Because men's hearts were hardened?
In Romans God left the men whose hearts had been hardened to THEMSELVES,,,He did not give them a new rule to suit them.
Romans 1:24

Was thinking last night I shouldn’t choose topics that start conflict. That was not the motive with this one but instead Jesus did say Moses added the precept because your hardened hearts. which, to me, is not saying it was added to suit them but against their actions. The foreseen “hardened heart”. It is amazing that Jesus said because of “your hardened heart” taken all the way back to Moses and those in the wilderness and also their hardened hearts against God even after seeing the miracles.

Was not attempting to expose God as NOT hating divorce but instead His removal of the hardened heart ...the true subject of putting away a wife (imo) and the new heart given in Romans 7:2-4 to bring forth fruit unto God. “For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. [3] So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. [4] Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.”

^the above being good and not evil. Was attempting to expose the freedom in His coming to set the captives free: “wherefore, my brethren, you also are become dead to the Law by the body of Christ; that you should be married to another.” Again, I don’t think it is so much about divorce of wife but divorce (separation) cutting away the hardens of heart —a heart of Stone—and serving God with newness of heart and spirit. Mark 8:14-18 Now the disciples had forgotten to take bread, neither had they in the ship with them more than one loaf. [15] And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. [16] And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread. [17] And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? [18] Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?

Mark 6:52 For they considered not the miracle of the loaves: for their heart was hardened.
^as in the wilderness when they hardened their hearts even after seeing the miracles. Even the disciples struggled before the Holy Spirit came and brought to remembrance what God said. God said blessed are those who have seen not yet do believe.

Even IF they (the Pharisees) added it to suit them...they did so way before their time ...back In the wilderness, by Moses which Christ himself Said the precept was added because of “your hardened heart.” Sometimes their sarcasm and “tempting him” was ...by their own mouths a testimony against their actions of going about to kill Him. John 7:33-35 Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me. [34] Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me : and where I am, thither ye cannot come. [35] Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?

Then said the Jews among themselves(standing before Jesus Christ)...what is He saying?...is He going to teach the gentiles? He went to teach the gentiles.

 

[Enoch111]

...Jesus did say Moses added the precept because your hardened hearts...

Moses could *add* nothing of his own volition or whim. Jesus did not say that Moses added anything.

The entire book of Deuteronomy is given by divine inspiration, so what Moses wrote was given to Israel by God. If you allege that Moses *added* Deuteronomy 24:1, what do you do with the rest of that book? Is it Scripture or is it the whims of a man?

The proper understanding is that God -- through Moses -- gave those commandments, but the Jews abused the permission to divorce, and it became an excuse "for any cause".

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Moses could *add* nothing of his own volition or whim. Jesus did not say that Moses added anything.

The entire book of Deuteronomy is given by divine inspiration, so what Moses wrote was given to Israel by God. If you allege that Moses *added* Deuteronomy 24:1, what do you do with the rest of that book? Is it Scripture or is it the whims of a man?

The proper understanding is that God -- through Moses -- gave those commandments, but the Jews abused the permission to divorce, and it became an excuse "for any cause".

Thank you for the correction. You are right. Better to quote it Mark 10:3-5
[3] And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? [4] And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away. [5] And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.

^ whatever that means, to me, it still speaks clearly against a hardened heart.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Moses could *add* nothing of his own volition or whim. Jesus did not say that Moses added anything.

The entire book of Deuteronomy is given by divine inspiration, so what Moses wrote was given to Israel by God. If you allege that Moses *added* Deuteronomy 24:1, what do you do with the rest of that book? Is it Scripture or is it the whims of a man?

The proper understanding is that God -- through Moses -- gave those commandments, but the Jews abused the permission to divorce, and it became an excuse "for any cause".

I don’t want an hardened heart but instead Mercy. I don’t want to stare in The face of all the miraculous He has shown and still doubt and tempt and it never be enough. Romans 9:18-21 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. [19] Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? [20] Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? [21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

 

[Grailhunter]

Was thinking last night I shouldn’t choose topics that start conflict. That was not the motive with this one but instead Jesus did say Moses added the precept because your hardened hearts. which, to me, is not saying it was added to suit them but against their actions. The foreseen “hardened heart”. It is amazing that Jesus said because of “your hardened heart” taken all the way back to Moses and those in the wilderness and also their hardened hearts against God even after seeing the miracles.

Was not attempting to expose God as NOT hating divorce but instead His removal of the hardened heart ...the true subject of putting away a wife (imo) and the new heart given in Romans 7:2-4 to bring forth fruit unto God. “For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. [3] So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. [4] Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.”

^the above being good and not evil. Was attempting to expose the freedom in His coming to set the captives free: “wherefore, my brethren, you also are become dead to the Law by the body of Christ; that you should be married to another.” Again, I don’t think it is so much about divorce of wife but divorce (separation) cutting away the hardens of heart —a heart of Stone—and serving God with newness of heart and spirit. Mark 8:14-18 Now the disciples had forgotten to take bread, neither had they in the ship with them more than one loaf. [15] And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. [16] And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread. [17] And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? [18] Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?

Mark 6:52 For they considered not the miracle of the loaves: for their heart was hardened.
^as in the wilderness when they hardened their hearts even after seeing the miracles. Even the disciples struggled before the Holy Spirit came and brought to remembrance what God said. God said blessed are those who have seen not yet do believe.

Even IF they (the Pharisees) added it to suit them...they did so way before their time ...back In the wilderness, by Moses which Christ himself Said the precept was added because of “your hardened heart.” Sometimes their sarcasm and “tempting him” was ...by their own mouths a testimony against their actions of going about to kill Him. John 7:33-35 Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me. [34] Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me : and where I am, thither ye cannot come. [35] Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?

Then said the Jews among themselves(standing before Jesus Christ)...what is He saying?...is He going to teach the gentiles? He went to teach the gentiles.

The discussion in the Gospels regarding divorce has many implications. For one the statement that "Moses permitted you" appears to set the Mosaic Law on its ear. Begging the question; How many other Laws came from Moses? That debate has been going on for centuries. Divorce is not the only correction that Christ made to the Mosaic Law. The Jews...many time Pharisees were viewing Christ as a man, they really had no idea that they were face to face with God. As a God He had that right and power to make changes. Still, Christ also said, "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:18-19 Therein is where the debate starts.......Note the reaction of His own Apostles/disciples, "The disciples said to Him, If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry." Matthew 19:10 Then as we go on the debate thickens. With Paul saying, " Now concerning the things about which you wrote, it is good for a man not to touch a woman. But because of immoralities, each man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband. 1st Corinthians 7:1 and then he goes on to say, "But this I say by way of concession, not of command.
Yet I wish that all men were even as I myself am. However, each man has his own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that. But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I. But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion. 1st Corinthians 7:6-9 (The KJV leaves it as, better to marry than to burn. Which to some could imply hell.) It looks like Paul is approving marriage as only a concession, not the preferred choice. Chapter 7 as a whole is a good read on this topic. But all these verses, between what Christ said and what Paul said, contributed to some of the early Christians believing that celibacy and not having families was the preferred state, for a Christian. All of this can be difficult for some modern Christians to understand and rightly so. Sadly there is no good answer. The scriptures are binding and as such can lock abusive relationships with no escape, except to be celebrate if you divorce. More or less tying the tails of two cats and throwing them over a clothes line and it gets worse if children are involved. Then there is also where Christ mentions a woman divorcing her husband....women did not have the right to divorce in that period. The adultery angle on divorce is very condemning. The reaction of His disciples pretty much summed it up as an unworkable scenario. Bottom line there is a good reason that several aspects of this has been debated so long with no real good answer, except celibacy. Opinions vary but the scriptures are binding. If you divorce, you are to remain celibate for the rest of your life. Then there is the hard-hearted aspect, for me, it can be hard-hearted to divorce and it can be hard-hearted to punish people that were in abusive relationships.

 

[GodsGrace]

Moses could *add* nothing of his own volition or whim. Jesus did not say that Moses added anything.

The entire book of Deuteronomy is given by divine inspiration, so what Moses wrote was given to Israel by God. If you allege that Moses *added* Deuteronomy 24:1, what do you do with the rest of that book? Is it Scripture or is it the whims of a man?

The proper understanding is that God -- through Moses -- gave those commandments, but the Jews abused the permission to divorce, and it became an excuse "for any cause".

How could God contradict Himself???

 

[GodsGrace]

Was thinking last night I shouldn’t choose topics that start conflict. That was not the motive with this one but instead Jesus did say Moses added the precept because your hardened hearts. which, to me, is not saying it was added to suit them but against their actions. The foreseen “hardened heart”. It is amazing that Jesus said because of “your hardened heart” taken all the way back to Moses and those in the wilderness and also their hardened hearts against God even after seeing the miracles.

Was not attempting to expose God as NOT hating divorce but instead His removal of the hardened heart ...the true subject of putting away a wife (imo) and the new heart given in Romans 7:2-4 to bring forth fruit unto God. “For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. [3] So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. [4] Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.”

^the above being good and not evil. Was attempting to expose the freedom in His coming to set the captives free: “wherefore, my brethren, you also are become dead to the Law by the body of Christ; that you should be married to another.” Again, I don’t think it is so much about divorce of wife but divorce (separation) cutting away the hardens of heart —a heart of Stone—and serving God with newness of heart and spirit. Mark 8:14-18 Now the disciples had forgotten to take bread, neither had they in the ship with them more than one loaf. [15] And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. [16] And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread. [17] And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? [18] Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?

Mark 6:52 For they considered not the miracle of the loaves: for their heart was hardened.
^as in the wilderness when they hardened their hearts even after seeing the miracles. Even the disciples struggled before the Holy Spirit came and brought to remembrance what God said. God said blessed are those who have seen not yet do believe.

Even IF they (the Pharisees) added it to suit them...they did so way before their time ...back In the wilderness, by Moses which Christ himself Said the precept was added because of “your hardened heart.” Sometimes their sarcasm and “tempting him” was ...by their own mouths a testimony against their actions of going about to kill Him. John 7:33-35 Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me. [34] Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me : and where I am, thither ye cannot come. [35] Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?

Then said the Jews among themselves(standing before Jesus Christ)...what is He saying?...is He going to teach the gentiles? He went to teach the gentiles.

I'm not ignoring you V, it's late here and you've written a lot.
Tomorrow morning...

 

[GodsGrace]

I don’t want an hardened heart but instead Mercy. I don’t want to stare in The face of all the miraculous He has shown and still doubt and tempt and it never be enough. Romans 9:18-21 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. [19] Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? [20] Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? [21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Be careful V...
Romans 9 is talking about THE JEWS and not individual believers...
It's about corporate salvation....the salvation of a group....God can do with the Jews as He wishes ... extend the gift of faith to the gentiles...so the Jews will become jealous and MAYBE be saved by this. Paul was very concerned for his fellow countrymen.

Check this out...it's an interesting study. (it sounds like you take it to mean personal salvation).

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Be careful V...
Romans 9 is talking about THE JEWS and not individual believers...
It's about corporate salvation....the salvation of a group....God can do with the Jews as He wishes ... extend the gift of faith to the gentiles...so the Jews will become jealous and MAYBE be saved by this. Paul was very concerned for his fellow countrymen.

Check this out...it's an interesting study. (it sounds like you take it to mean personal salvation).

Not sure what you are saying. Think you are right in what you think I’m saying but what I’m not understanding is how you say it is not about all mankind...and yes personal salvation in Christ...to all men. The way I understand it...not saying it is right but so you can help where you think it is off...vessels of mercy ...vessels of Honour are only vessels purged Matthew 3:11-12 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: [12] Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Won’t post all of Romans 9:18-24 but can say I know plenty whose heart is hardened towards God. That refuse to see Him or seek Him...who are blind. All men either are vessels of wrath or of mercy...not sure how you said it is only to the Jew? “What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: [23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of Mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, [24] Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

All men are formed of the potter... His word teaches about who all men are with and without Him. Not sure how you said ...Romans 9 is only describing the Jews but instead all formed in the likeness of His image.

 

[marks]

...how is Israel called the wife of God and yet the NT church the husband is Christ?

Personally, while I see the church compared to a bride, Israel is whom I see called the wife of God, and personally, I think the marraige supper of the Lamb is when God remarries Israel. The church is different.

Much love!

 

[marks]

NOT EVERY LAW was given by God.
Some of the law was man-made.


Have you read all the laws in the Torah?
Do you need proof that some of it was NOT WRITTEN BY GOD?

Personally, I believe God inspired every word and letter of Scripture.

Much love!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Personally, while I see the church compared to a bride, Israel is whom I see called the wife of God, and personally, I think the marraige supper of the Lamb is when God remarries Israel. The church is different.

Much love!

Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: [15] And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Why are the Jews not included in “my brethren, you also are become dead to the Law by the body of Christ ...that we bring forth fruit unto God.” And “then were all dead...that they should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.”

Why are the Jews not included...did He not die for all and all were dead by the body of Christ...that they should not hereforth live unto themselves but bring forth fruit unto God?

 

[GodsGrace]

Not sure what you are saying. Think you are right in what you think I’m saying but what I’m not understanding is how you say it is not about all mankind...and yes personal salvation in Christ...to all men. The way I understand it...not saying it is right but so you can help where you think it is off...vessels of mercy ...vessels of Honour are only vessels purged Matthew 3:11-12 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: [12] Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Won’t post all of Romans 9:18-24 but can say I know plenty whose heart is hardened towards God. That refuse to see Him or seek Him...who are blind. All men either are vessels of wrath or of mercy...not sure how you said it is only to the Jew? “What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: [23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of Mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, [24] Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

All men are formed of the potter... His word teaches about who all men are with and without Him. Not sure how you said ...Romans 9 is only describing the Jews but instead all formed in the likeness of His image.

I'm going to post some links...I'm no expert on Romans 9 to 11, but it deals with the state of Israel and the Jews and the plans God had and has for them...

 Romans 9 - Expository Comments On Romans 9-11


Romans 9-11: A New View of the Doctrine of Election

 

[GodsGrace]

Personally, I believe God inspired every word and letter of Scripture.

Much love!

It's your right...but you sure do have a lot of explaining to do!

 

[Giuliano]

I DID NOT say that all of Deuteronomy is of Moses.

Jesus DID correct what Moses had allowed in Deuteronomy.
Because men's hearts were hardened?
In Romans God left the men whose hearts had been hardened to THEMSELVES,,,He did not give them a new rule to suit them.
Romans 1:24

We have to remember that the right way to interpret the Law of Moses involves love. In this case, what is the loving thing to be done for the woman who's married to a man with a hard heart? Never mind the husband -- what about the wife?

Suppose a man's wife starts to age a little and he wants a younger one. Suppose then that he starts treating his current wife in abusive ways. If a man has a hard heart, why should his wife be punished for what's wrong with him? The sin is his. Insisting that he can't divorce her would punish her.

In a way, a divorce does punish her, especially if she still cares about him and would prefer to work things out; but insisting that both maintain a nonloving relationship isn't fair to her.

In that culture, she may have been forced into another marriage. If she was still emotionally attached to her first husband, that would tear her apart emotionally. It could feel like committing adultery every time she had sex with her second husband. Second marriages like that have the potential for trouble. How could she love her second husband if she was still in love with the first?