Do Christians have a desperately wicked heart?

[Tong2020]

In my understanding, the soul is the carnal nature, or, in some translations, the flesh. This is a poor translation as the physical body is not capable of lusts, just physical sensations through which lusts are fulfilled. Much confusion has been caused by this and at this point, you would need to look into things to see if what I am saying is valid or not; otherwise, we'll just debate and spin our wheels forever. And who know, maybe create yet another denomination.

I have read scriptures and looked at what it says of the heart of the fallen man, and what God had done with it concerning His creating a person anew.

Regarding the corrupted flesh, Paul made it clear, as referring to the body where we are in, of which is of the dust of the earth, of which the body of Adam was made out of. It does not refer to the soul, or to the spirit.

Physical sensations are what is called “lust of the flesh” in contrast to the desires of the spirit, which are spiritual sensations, so to speak.

Tong
R4174

 

[Truman]

Lusts originate in the heart.

 

[Truman]

Refer to post #40.

 

[Tong2020]

Lusts originate in the heart.

Perhaps we can say that. But scriptures speaks about the lust of the flesh, different from the desires of the spirit. You would learn much about the body of man, that is the flesh, in the latter part of Romans 7. Paul calls it the “body of death”.

Which do you say craves for food, is it your body or your heart? Which do you say craves for physical pleasure, the body or the heart?

Consider a new Christian who used to having sexual acts with sexy women. While his heart do not desire such anymore, his flesh lust for it when his eyes sees a sexy woman. His heart wars against his flesh. Again, I will point to what Paul says about this in Romans 7.

Tong
R4175

 

[Truman]

To me, lust of the flesh is really lust of the carnal, or sinful nature, or soul. A desire of the born-again spirit is always godly. A born-again spirit cannot be corrupted, so when a person sins, it originates in the soul, aka carnal nature, or, in some instances, flesh. I've studied each instance of the word flesh. It is sometimes used to describe the physical body, and sometimes used to describe the carnal, or sinful, nature. Which, in my understanding, is the soul. When you look at the context in which each instance of the word flesh is used, you begin to understand that it is describing 2 different things. Like I said, unless you do a study into this and discover what I did, we'll butt heads till the cows come home.

 

[Tong2020]

To me, lust of the flesh is really lust of the carnal, or sinful nature, or soul. A desire of the born-again spirit is always godly. A born-again spirit cannot be corrupted, so when a person sins, it originates in the soul, aka carnal nature, or, in some instances, flesh. I've studied each instance of the word flesh. It is sometimes used to describe the physical body, and sometimes used to describe the carnal, or sinful, nature. Which, in my understanding, is the soul. When you look at the context in which each instance of the word flesh is used, you begin to understand that it is describing 2 different things. Like I said, unless you do a study into this and discover what I did, we'll butt heads till the cows come home.

I am not arguing with you. Just sharing to you, as I think you also do, my reading of scriptures.

And since we have different readings, it is wise I think that we share specific scriptures where our understanding of the “flesh” is coming from. Perhaps you can point me to the specific scriptures which you say “flesh” would mean the soul.

Over and above that, may I ask, do you believe that the Christian is a new creation in Christ Jesus? Do you believe that he had been saved? If you believe that he is, what do you say isn’t yet saved concerning him, as pertains to his being, that is, body, soul, spirit?

Tong
R4176

 

[Truman]

Like I said, unless we see eye to eye on the different meanings of the word flesh, there's no point moving forward. You're not a bad person it you don't look it up, you just won't understand my scriptural position on why I believe the heart is wicked.
Then there's 21 years of walking out the inner crucifixion. But that's another matter. Shalom.

 

[Tong2020]

Like I said, unless we see eye to eye on the different meanings of the word flesh, there's no point moving forward. You're not a bad person it you don't look it up, you just won't understand my scriptural position on why I believe the heart is wicked.
Then there's 21 years of walking out the inner crucifixion. But that's another matter. Shalom.

I don’t know why you seem to say that I did not have a study of the word “flesh” in scriptures. And that you on the other hand did.

If you don’t want to share with me the scriptures you say use the word “flesh” as referring to the soul, that’ fine with me. It’s just that, I don’t find helpful reason why you would not.

I do respect you and what you believe, that the heart, even that of those who where created anew by God in Christ Jesus, have a heart which you say is wicked. But I would not receive anything that goes against the truth revealed by God Himself concerning the heart of fallen man and concerning those created anew in Christ Jesus.

And I give you this scriptures to show you what God said about fallen mankind in general, after He had destroyed all of mankind in the generation of Noah, saved Noah and seven others of his family.

Gen. 8:21 And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lordsaid in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

Tong
R4177

 

[brightfame52]

@marks @Tong2020 and @Christophany

I love love love the posts full of Scriptures! Nicely done!

Yes, our hearts are made new when we accept Christ. I see that clearly now.

Actually we need the New Heart first in order to believe on Christ. We believe with the Heart in conversion Rom 10:10

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Rom 6:17

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Now think about. Which heart does it take to obey God ? To believe unto righteousness. The old natural hard desperately wicked heart of Jer 17:9 or the new heart given in the New Birth Ezk 36:26-27

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

 

[Wynona]

Actually we need the New Heart first in order to believe on Christ. We believe with the Heart in conversion Rom 10:10

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Rom 6:17

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Now think about. Which heart does it take to obey God ? To believe unto righteousness. The old natural hard desperately wicked heart of Jer 17:9 or the new heart given in the New Birth Ezk 36:26-27

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

But you are saying Christians have a regenerated heart, right?

Im not sure if believing changes the heart or the heart changes believing. But I do think we have a new heart.

 

[farouk]

But you are saying Christians have a regenerated heart, right?

Im not sure if believing changes the heart or the heart changes believing. But I do think we have a new heart.

@Wynona Reformed theologians tend to hold from Scripture (Ephesians 2, etc.) that regeneration precedes faith.

 

[brightfame52]

wynona

But you are saying Christians have a regenerated heart, right?

How are you ? Thanks for responding. Yes Christians have a regenerated heart, that was a prerequisite before they could believe and its why they believe.

The heart man has by nature is only evil continually Gen 6:5

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

And its incurably wicked Jer 17:9

9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

That word desperately is the hebrew word 'ānaš and means:

1. to be incurable
   not curable; that cannot be cured, remedied, or corrected:
   

Thats why Paul Thanked God that some believed in Rome, He perceived God had given them the New Heart Rom 6:17

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Do you understand what Im saying ?

 

[Wynona]

wynona



How are you ? Thanks for responding. Yes Christians have a regenerated heart, that was a prerequisite before they could believe and its why they believe.

The heart man has by nature is only evil continually Gen 6:5

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

And its incurably wicked Jer 17:9

9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

That word desperately is the hebrew word 'ānaš and means:

1. 
   
   
   • to be incurable
     not curable; that cannot be cured, remedied, or corrected:

Thats why Paul Thanked God that some believed in Rome, He perceived God had given them the New Heart Rom 6:17

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Do you understand what Im saying ?

Yes, you're saying that the heart was regenerated in order to believe the gospel.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, you're saying that the heart was regenerated in order to believe the gospel.

Yes, Amen. Do you understand why I stated that according to scripture ?

 

[Wynona]

Yes, Amen. Do you understand why I stated that according to scripture ?

Honestly, no. I don't have the same clarity about it as you have.

 

[brightfame52]

Honestly, no. I don't have the same clarity about it as you have.

Okay, may God give you that clarity !

 

[Tong2020]

But you are saying Christians have a regenerated heart, right?

Im not sure if believing changes the heart or the heart changes believing. But I do think we have a new heart.

It is God who changes the heart. And yes, every one who are a new creation in Christ Jesus, have a new heart.

Tong
R4179

 

[brightfame52]

Honestly, no. I don't have the same clarity about it as you have.

Let me know if you have anymore questions about what I have stated to you.

 

[ChristisGod]

Actually we need the New Heart first in order to believe on Christ. We believe with the Heart in conversion Rom 10:10

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Rom 6:17

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Now think about. Which heart does it take to obey God ? To believe unto righteousness. The old natural hard desperately wicked heart of Jer 17:9 or the new heart given in the New Birth Ezk 36:26-27

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

do you still have a deceitful heart ? yes or no

do you still have a sin nature, the old man, the flesh ? yes or no

hope this helps !!!

 

[GodsBeloved11]

Im starting to think that the bad stuff I don't trust is really my flesh. All believers war against the flesh.

But my heart is the new heart promised in Ezekiel.

Yes, this is true, I think. I feel the same way about my own walk with God.