Do we have free will or are we predestined?

[LoveYeshua]

Arguments for and against Maria Valtorta's writings having a supernatural origin isn't in itself hypocrisy. Regarding the Catholic Church, if the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith (DDF) intended to declare Valtorta’s writings not supernatural, then in their 2025 statement they would've used the explicit formula constat de non supernaturalitate—the very formula that means exactly that, and the same one they used in other cases in 2024. But they didn't. And, if you're interested, a substantial body of evidence supporting a supernatural origin of her writings can be found here: A Summa and Encyclopedia to Maria Valtorta’s Extraordinary Work.

there is a foundation in the name of Maria Valtorta get it yet? $$$ ka ching! $$$

here is the link in case you would want to make a donation to perpetuate the myth.

from this site:"

Who would like to collaborate with our Foundation,
In addition to praying and holy Masses to obtain from the Church the recognition of the virtues and charism of Maria Valtorta, he can make a donation by reloading the PostePay card or through PayPal
This contributes to all the initiatives of the Maria Valtorta Foundation."
​

link;Donazioni – Fondazione Maria Valtorta

 

[Titus]

That wasn't where I was going. The prophecy requires one son of perdition to be lost. It doesn't require it to be Judas. But if it hadn't been Judas, it would have been someone else. (Probably Peter, that guy was a hothead)

It does say that the devil entered him, so I'm not sure Judas was necessarily in the driver's seat the whole time. There's a history of choices that led him to a place where the devil could enter like that. I'm not exonerating Judas.

Can we agree that Judas was responsible for His condemnation and not God?
Yes, Judas needed to betray Christ for Gods plan to be fulfilled.
You know every single person that goes to hell would have been better off not being born?
Jesus chose Judas because He knew what Judas was going to do.
Jesus didn't cause Judas to do what he chose to do. Jesus had foreknowledge of Judas.
You know Jesus knew how every single one of His apostles would live and die? Jesus knows this about everyone. If you know everyone's entire life, past, present, future. You would not need to cause anyone to do anything. You could pick out people to fulfill your goals. You know them better than they know themselves.

 

[Titus]

If you think donation requests from the Maria Valtorta Foundation discredits all the substantial body of evidence—including scientific—supporting a supernatural origin of her writings (see A Summa and Encyclopedia to Maria Valtorta’s Extraordinary Work), then you’re applying a standard that would invalidate virtually every major cause in the Church.

Catholic foundations, religious orders, shrines, canonization causes, missionary groups, and charitable apostolates all accept donations. That fact says nothing about the truth, falsity, holiness, or credibility of the person or mission they support.

If your argument is that “a foundation exists, therefore it’s a scam,” then by that logic you’d have to dismiss:

• The Padre Pio Foundation
• The Divine Mercy apostolate
• The Fatima organizations
• Every canonization cause that fundraises

—which would be an obviously unreasonable standard.

A foundation’s donation page proves only one thing:
People believe the work is valuable enough to support.

It does not erase the documented historical, theological, and scientific data surrounding Valtorta’s writings. If you want to challenge the evidence, challenge the evidence—not the existence of a donation button.

Revelation 22:18-19,
- for I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book if any man shall add unto these things God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book....

Deuteronomy 4:2,
- ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you

 

[NayborBear]

Not predestined.
Was Judas the first man to ever live that could not choose right from wrong by his own will?

When I choose to do evil and have no intention of repentance I too am destined to hell.
God knows the future so He knew Judas' fate. Judas chose it God had foreknowledge of it.

It was (how can I say) "PreDETERMINED" that this WOULD come to pass!
That the betrayer would be Judas? Not so much!
That Judas rebuked Mary Magdalene for wasting all that Expensive perfume in the Alabaster jar on Jesus' feet? Gives a reader just a "hint" that Judas had a "weakness for money" that the son of perdition had little problem in exploiting!
Do I believe Judas is "hell bound?"
ABOSLUTELY NOT!
Judas was simply fulfilling Prophecy!

A little "theory" concerning Judas' demise here.:
There ARE "schools of thought" that maintain that Judas had "just a little bit of help". Probably hired by the Chief Priests who escorted Judas to where he was hung, and just to make certain he didn't come back and name names, and bare Witness that Jesus was INDEED the Son of God? They cut him from stem to stern! Plausible Deniability Folks!
Wasn't the FIRST time?
Certainly wasn't the LAST time either!

 

[Wick Stick]

Can we agree that Judas was responsible for His condemnation and not God?

I didn't set out here to blame God, or to exonerate Judas. Judas is indeed responsible for his own actions and choices.

Where God is concerned, I find that a plan that requires one person to be lost so that billions can be saved is commendable. Not that it matters much what I think.

You know every single person that goes to hell would have been better off not being born?

I'm one of those pesky annihilation people who thinks those that go to Gehenna are destroyed by the flames, and don't continue to exist in a perpetual state of torture.

I'm not dogmatic about it. I could be wrong.

 

[LoveYeshua]

If you think donation requests from the Maria Valtorta Foundation discredits all the substantial body of evidence—including scientific—supporting a supernatural origin of her writings (see A Summa and Encyclopedia to Maria Valtorta’s Extraordinary Work), then you’re applying a standard that would invalidate virtually every major cause in the Church.

Catholic foundations, religious orders, shrines, canonization causes, missionary groups, and charitable apostolates all accept donations. That fact says nothing about the truth, falsity, holiness, or credibility of the person or mission they support.

If your argument is that “a foundation exists, therefore it’s a scam,” then by that logic you’d have to dismiss:

• The Padre Pio Foundation
• The Divine Mercy apostolate
• The Fatima organizations
• Every canonization cause that fundraises

—which would be an obviously unreasonable standard.

A foundation’s donation page proves only one thing:
People believe the work is valuable enough to support.

It does not erase the documented historical, theological, and scientific data surrounding Valtorta’s writings. If you want to challenge the evidence, challenge the evidence—not the existence of a donation button.

a foundation could point to a scam. Are not the Words of our Lord Jesus enough for you? what she wrote is nice and all but there are warnings in the bible about people who add to what God said.. it would not be difficult for me to challenge the texts but I have no time for it, your mind is already made up probably from a long time ago. anything I write you will reject, as you reject the statement from the vatican.

The danger is not that every sentence is false. The danger is mixing biblical truth with human additions until people cannot separate Scripture from visions and imagination.

Jesus constantly pointed people back to the word of God, not to hidden revelations.
The biggest issue is that many teachings are presented as direct revelations from Jesus even though they are not found in Scripture. The Bible itself warns against adding revelations beyond what God already gave.

In Revelation 22:18-19 there is a warning about adding to prophetic words.
Jesus Himself often rebuked people for replacing God’s truth with human traditions and teachings.

Here are some important passages:

Jesus said:

“And in vain do they worship me, teaching as their doctrines the precepts of men.”
Matthew 15:9 ASV

And: “Ye leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men.”
Mark 7:8 ASV

This is important because many later revelations and traditions can slowly become more important than the plain words of God.

From the Old Testament: “Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish from it.”
Deuteronomy 4:2 ASV And again:“What thing soever I command you, that shall ye observe to do: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it." Deuteronomy 12:32 ASV

also; “Add thou not unto his words, Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.”
Proverbs 30:6 ASV, The disciples also warned about going beyond what was written: “that in us ye might learn not to go beyond the things which are written”1 Corinthians 4:6 ASV

John warned believers to test spiritual claims carefully: “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God.” 1 John 4:1 ASV

Jesus also warned that many false prophets would arise: “For there shall arise false christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders.” Matthew 24:24 ASV

And Paul himself said something important here that agrees with Jesus and the Law on this matter:
“though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach unto you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be anathema.”
Galatians 1:8 ASV

So throughout Scripture there is a repeated pattern:

• Do not add to God’s word.
• Do not remove from it.
• Test every spirit and revelation.
• Stay anchored in what was already given.
• Human visions, traditions, and mystical experiences must never overrule Scripture.

That is why many believers are cautious with private revelations, visions, rewritten gospels, and mystical dictations, even when parts sound holy or beautiful.

I will speak no more of this.

 

[St. SteVen]

Wow.
We sure are getting a lot mileage out of a single quote by Maria Valtorta. - LOL

 

[talons]

Wow.
We sure are getting a lot mileage out of a single quote by Maria Valtorta. - LOL

Single quote ? I have seen more than one quote but all the links to Maria Voltorta are legend in this thread .

 

[St. SteVen]

Single quote ? I have seen more than one quote but all the links to Maria Voltorta are legend in this thread .

Certainly deserved its own thread, but probably got more traffic (backlash) here.

 

[Armour of God]

Some people believe there is a contradiction between the accounts in Gospel of Matthew and Acts of the Apostles concerning the field connected to Judas, but when the passages are read carefully, they complete each other rather than oppose one another.

Matthew explains that Judas, filled with remorse, returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders. After Judas left, the priests decided not to place the money into the treasury because it was “the price of blood.” They then used that silver to buy the potter’s field as a burial place for strangers:


So Matthew clearly tells us who physically completed the purchase: the chief priests.

But Acts looks at the matter from another angle. The field was obtained because of Judas’ betrayal money, and therefore it became tied to him and his guilt:


So there is no real contradiction. The priests bought the field directly, but it was bought with Judas’ silver, the reward of his betrayal. In this sense the field could also be spoken of as belonging to Judas or being obtained by him, because his actions and money caused the purchase.

The two passages simply focus on different parts of the same event. Matthew explains the transaction itself. Acts explains the responsibility and tragic end connected to Judas. Together they give the full picture of why the place became known as “the field of blood.”

ASV says that but most other versions say Judas purchased the field.
So there are contradictions between versions as well which I hadn't realised.
But even so, Judas could not obtain a field if the priests bought it and Judas hung himself. The priests bought the field so they obtained the field, not Judas who was already dead.

Also how can Judas fall headlong when he supposedly hung himself? That makes no sense either. If they cut him down thrn he falls feet first, not head first, that's impossible.

These contradictions along with many others cannot be explained away so easily. The most rational reason is that humans make mistakes, especially when recounting events. Why are the genealogies of Jesus different in Matthew and Luke? Mark says Jesus was crucified on the 3rd hour, John says it happens after the 6th hour? Different amount of angels appear in the tomb? The list just goes on

 

[Armour of God]

I'm not angry and I already explained.
Yes you are helping the skeptic's cause.

See your responses come from being afraid by skeptics. Their more like weak excuses than an explanation that makes any sense.

I don't care about skeptics I'm just being honest and admitting what I see. And I see contradictions, not just this one but many of them.

Humans are imperfect beings. We often make mistakes, especially when recounting events long after they have happened

 

[Armour of God]

If the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith (DDF) intended to declare Valtorta’s writings not supernatural, why did they not use in their 2025 statement the explicit formula constat de non supernaturalitate—the very formula that means exactly that, and the same one they used in other cases in 2024? This is precisely one of the reasons why I recommended that you both read this: Maria Valtorta and the 2025 Vatican Statement: Clarifying Myths, Facts & Supernatural Status. If you’re committed to examining the evidence rather than defending a conclusion you’ve already settled on, then you’ll read it.

You falsely accused me of being a liar.
Woe to you for your the one who is actually the liar

 

[Armour of God]

She's not hijacking the thread. Just keeping up with the debate.
You don't need to have the last word. Let it go.

She is hijacking the thread, that mystic has nothing to do with anything we are discussing.

I started the thread, why don't you tell her to let it go. She is being opposed by staff and moderators yet she keeps going on with the same nonsense.

She can open up another thread and promote her false prophet there

 

[St. SteVen]

Humans are imperfect beings. We often make mistakes, especially when recounting events long after they have happened

Agree.
The gospel accounts were "written" (assembled) decades after the actual events.
The synoptic gospels are nearly identical. Obviously constructed from a single source. (not written)

 

[St. SteVen]

She is hijacking the thread, that mystic has nothing to do with anything we are discussing.

I started the thread, why don't you tell her to let it go. She can open up another thread and promote her false prophet there

Sorry. I thought this was one of my threads. I'll get off your topic. (unwatch)

I was suggesting that you take leadership and let others have the last word when there is a disagreement.

 

[Armour of God]

a foundation could point to a scam. Are not the Words of our Lord Jesus enough for you? what she wrote is nice and all but there are warnings in the bible about people who add to what God said.. it would not be difficult for me to challenge the texts but I have no time for it, your mind is already made up probably from a long time ago. anything I write you will reject, as you reject the statement from the vatican.

The danger is not that every sentence is false. The danger is mixing biblical truth with human additions until people cannot separate Scripture from visions and imagination.

Jesus constantly pointed people back to the word of God, not to hidden revelations.
The biggest issue is that many teachings are presented as direct revelations from Jesus even though they are not found in Scripture. The Bible itself warns against adding revelations beyond what God already gave.

In Revelation 22:18-19 there is a warning about adding to prophetic words.
Jesus Himself often rebuked people for replacing God’s truth with human traditions and teachings.

Here are some important passages:

Jesus said:

“And in vain do they worship me, teaching as their doctrines the precepts of men.”
Matthew 15:9 ASV

And: “Ye leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men.”
Mark 7:8 ASV

This is important because many later revelations and traditions can slowly become more important than the plain words of God.

From the Old Testament: “Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish from it.”
Deuteronomy 4:2 ASV And again:“What thing soever I command you, that shall ye observe to do: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it." Deuteronomy 12:32 ASV

also; “Add thou not unto his words, Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.”
Proverbs 30:6 ASV, The disciples also warned about going beyond what was written: “that in us ye might learn not to go beyond the things which are written”1 Corinthians 4:6 ASV

John warned believers to test spiritual claims carefully: “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God.” 1 John 4:1 ASV

Jesus also warned that many false prophets would arise: “For there shall arise false christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders.” Matthew 24:24 ASV

And Paul himself said something important here that agrees with Jesus and the Law on this matter:
“though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach unto you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be anathema.”
Galatians 1:8 ASV

So throughout Scripture there is a repeated pattern:

• Do not add to God’s word.
• Do not remove from it.
• Test every spirit and revelation.
• Stay anchored in what was already given.
• Human visions, traditions, and mystical experiences must never overrule Scripture.

That is why many believers are cautious with private revelations, visions, rewritten gospels, and mystical dictations, even when parts sound holy or beautiful.

I will speak no more of this.

I agree. Enough of this false prophet.
Open another thread if she wants to discuss it instead of derailing this one

 

[Armour of God]

Sorry. I thought this was one of my threads. I'll get off your topic. (unwatch)

I was suggesting that you take leadership and let others have the last word when there is a disagreement.

I tried doing that already. I didnt say anything for a long time but she just kept going on and on about it, mentioning me by name as well, calling me a liar.

Why don't you tell her to take leadership and let stop talking about it. Why only me you ask of this. Tell her to start up her own thread about it.

 

[Armour of God]

Agree.
The gospel accounts were "written" (assembled) decades after the actual events.
The synoptic gospels are nearly identical. Obviously constructed from a single source. (not written)

I agree. I think peope get really emotional when you point out differences, they scramble to make excuses rather than simply admitting that it's most likely a misinterpretation by the author. Their afraid of being attacked by atheists and skeptics

 

[Titus]

See your responses come from being afraid by skeptics. Their more like weak excuses than an explanation that makes any sense.

I don't care about skeptics I'm just being honest and admitting what I see. And I see contradictions, not just this one but many of them.

Humans are imperfect beings. We often make mistakes, especially when recounting events long after they have happened

I fear for peoples souls who dont believe what God says.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Do we have free will or are we predestined?

Do we have free will or are we predestined?​

​