Do we have free will or are we predestined?

[Armour of God]

Why would you believe that is outlandish?
Doesn't Jesus speak anymore?
If He doesn't speak to you, can you really claim to be one of His own?

I simply don't believe the claim

 

[Debp]

I simply don't believe the claim

I agree because that mystic is quoting Jesus in the first person as if Jesus is speaking through her mouth. That is something to be wary of...many cults begin in such a way. Also mediums.

 

[Lambano]

I agree because that mystic is quoting Jesus in the first person as if Jesus is speaking through her mouth. That is something to be wary of...many cults begin in such a way. Also mediums.

It's basically claiming the gift of prophecy; see 1 Corinthians chapter 14:1-5.

Did Maria Valtorta have the gift of prophecy? How can we tell?

 

[Debp]

Are you open to the possibility that Maria Valtorta truly was one of Jesus's spokespersons? Or, do you believe that she couldn't have been?

I think she's seeing things through the lense of Catholicism.

 

[St. SteVen]

I simply don't believe the claim

On what basis?

 

[LoveYeshua]

Canonically, you’re right — we don’t have a record of how Judas became one of the Twelve.

Maria Valtorta, however, claimed that Jesus granted her visions of Gospel events and explained His reasons for doing so. According to her, these revelations were meant in part to illuminate certain passages of the canonical books, to show what His time as Master was like, and to help readers know Him—He, the Word—in His words.

In her inspired accounts, the first meeting between Jesus and Judas of Kerioth (Iscariot) appears in The Gospel as Revealed to Me (also known as The Poem of the Man-God), in chapter 54, "Jesus Meets Judas Iscariot and Thomas and Cures Simon the Zealot." The acceptance of Judas as a disciple is described in chapter 66, "The Iscariot Finds Jesus at Gethsemane and is Accepted as a Disciple."

And yes — it is an interesting moment to consider.

Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit.

this is what I found directly from the vatican web site on this Maria Valtorta, translated from Italiano to English, we shoud NOT in any way consider any her writings as inspired they are clearly not.

DICASTERY FOR THE DOCTRINE OF FAITH

Communicated

About the writings of Maria Valtorta


Often they reach the Holy See, on the part of both clergymen and laity, requests for clarification about the position of the Church regarding the writings of Mary Valtorta, such as the work The poem of Man God, today known by the title The Gospel as it has been revealed to me, and other publications.

In this regard, it is reiterated that alleged “visions”, “revelations” and “communications” contained in the writings of Mary Valtorta, or in any case attributed to them, cannot be considered of supernatural origin, but must be considered simply literary forms used by the Author to narrate, in her own way, the life of Jesus Christ.

In its long tradition, the Church does not accept as normative the apocryphal Gospels and other similar texts, as it does not recognize their divine inspiration, referring to the sure reading of the inspired Gospels.



Vatican City, February 22, 2025


link:Comunicato circa gli scritti di Maria Valtorta (22 febbraio 2025)

 

[Armour of God]

On what basis?

Rejected by the Roman Catholic Church
It seems you don't accept my opinion?

 

[St. SteVen]

Rejected by the Roman Catholic Church
It seems you don't accept my opinion?

My concern is with the larger issue...
Does Jesus still speak today?
Can you hear His voice?

 

[rwb]

All three views of the final judgement are contradictory.
If you believe in damnationism, annihilationism is contradictory.
Either the wicked are tormented forever, or they are destroyed.
That's a contradiction. Why don't you have a problem with that?

The Bible tells us those cast into the lake of fire shall experience the second death forever. Therefore, it is the second death that is never ending. Do you believe to die is to be tormented forever?

Revelation 20:14-15 (KJV) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I have proven that those without the law will be judged according to their works.
Rather than automatically condemned.

But you have NOT proven their works in flesh & blood predestined them to glory! Good works cannot eternally save man. We must be born again according to grace through faith in God because doing good apart from faith in God will not save us. Why? Because salvation is of the Lord!

 

[St. SteVen]

Do you believe to die is to be tormented forever?

No.

But you have NOT proven their works in flesh & blood predestined them to glory! Good works cannot eternally save man. We must be born again according to grace through faith in God because doing good apart from faith in God will not save us. Why? Because salvation is of the Lord!

What does this scripture mean then?

Romans 2:14-16 niv
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law,
do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves,
even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts,
their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts
sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets
through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

 

[rwb]

My concern is with the larger issue...
Does Jesus still speak today?
Can you hear His voice?

If we say we can audibly hear the voice of Jesus speaking to us today, how can we be certain it is His voice speaking audibly to us since the Bible warns us of seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils, and also tells us that Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light, possessing lying signs and wonders that would even deceive the elect if God does not intervene?

1 Timothy 4:1 (KJV) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Corinthians 11:14 (KJV) And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 (KJV) Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

We have the Word of God and we can be assured that Jesus speaks to His people THROUGH His written Word. Asking for anything more is to be like the scribes and pharisee's of Old who demand a sign for them to believe.

Matthew 12:38-40 (KJV) Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

It is through His Spirit in us that Christ speaks to His people, spiritually making them hear and see that they might know/believe in the spiritual Kingdom of God.

 

[Armour of God]

My concern is with the larger issue...
Does Jesus still speak today?
Can you hear His voice?

No, not audibly, but I believe the Holy Spirit guides us in different ways

 

[rwb]

What does this scripture mean then?

Romans 2:14-16 niv
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law,
do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves,
even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts,
their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts
sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets
through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Paul is speaking of Gentiles who have a new nature, where they are no longer dead in trespasses and sins. Gentiles were never required to keep the written law given to the Jews, they understand that Christ, through His cross and resurrection has fulfilled the law, so that they having another law written on their hearts serving Him through His Spirit the spiritual/moral law of God.

Romans 7:4 (KJV) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Romans 7:25 (KJV) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 10:4 (KJV) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

This is THE DAY that is according to the preaching of the gospel judging the secrets of men's hearts. The gospel is the power of life or death depending upon how a man receives it.

Romans 2:16 (KJV) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

 

[St. SteVen]

If we say we can audibly hear the voice of Jesus speaking to us today, how can we be certain it is His voice speaking audibly to us since the Bible warns us of seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils, and also tells us that Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light, possessing lying signs and wonders that would even deceive the elect if God does not intervene? ...

We have the Word of God and we can be assured that Jesus speaks to His people THROUGH His written Word. Asking for anything more is to be like the scribes and pharisee's of Old who demand a sign for them to believe.

It is through His Spirit in us that Christ speaks to His people, spiritually making them hear and see that they might know/believe in the spiritual Kingdom of God.

You answered your own question.
Jesus will never say anything to us that doesn't align with the scriptures.
But He typically doesn't quote what He has already said either.
Except when He reminds us of the scriptures.

Here's one that happened to me recently.

I got a word (prophetic message) for someone at church a week or two ago.
It had never happened to me before. It was a bit scary.

The Pastor asked for those who needed prayer to raise a hand.
We were instructed to gather around those with raised hands right where they were.

A young woman came over and laid a hand on me as I prayed for the woman behind me.
I got a word from the Lord (I believe) that was clear and memorable. These things can be fleeting.

"I release the gifts of the Spirit in your life. The Spirit distributes them as He wills for the good of the Body."

I added, "You can read about that in I Corinthians 12." And...
"I'm not sure if that is legitimate, you need confirmation."

She just smiled at me, somewhat amused.

I should probably share where I was at when this happened.
As I wrote, "It was a bit scary." So why did I follow through on this?

I have received prophecies for me on many occasions in the past.
Both spoken and written. And done some study on the subject.

Typically the "prophet" is given a puzzle piece.
They have no deep knowledge of what it is about.
In obedience to the "word" given them, they deliver it.

It is up to the one receiving the word to confirm it.
The word may be immediately meaningful,
or it may take years to be confirmed.

I delivered the word given to me. (in obedience)
I completed the task.

 

[rwb]

You answered your own question.
Jesus will never say anything to us that doesn't align with the scriptures.
But He typically doesn't quote what He has already said either.
Except when He reminds us of the scriptures.

Here's one that happened to me recently.

I got a word (prophetic message) for someone at church a week or two ago.
It had never happened to me before. It was a bit scary.

The Pastor asked for those who needed prayer to raise a hand.
We were instructed to gather around those with raised hands right where they were.

A young woman came over and laid a hand on me as I prayed for the woman behind me.
I got a word from the Lord (I believe) that was clear and memorable. These things can be fleeting.

"I release the gifts of the Spirit in your life. The Spirit distributes them as He wills for the good of the Body."

I added, "You can read about that in I Corinthians 12." And...
"I'm not sure if that is legitimate, you need confirmation."

She just smiled at me, somewhat amused.

I should probably share where I was at when this happened.
As I wrote, "It was a bit scary." So why did I follow through on this?

I have received prophecies for me on many occasions in the past.
Both spoken and written. And done some study on the subject.

Typically the "prophet" is given a puzzle piece.
They have no deep knowledge of what it is about.
In obedience to the "word" given them, they deliver it.

It is up to the one receiving the word to confirm it.
The word may be immediately meaningful,
or it may take years to be confirmed.

I delivered the word given to me. (in obedience)
I completed the task.

We have the Word of God and we can be assured that Jesus speaks to His people THROUGH His written Word. Asking for anything more is to be like the scribes and pharisee's of Old who demand a sign for them to believe.

Matthew 12:38-40 (KJV) Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

It is through His Spirit in us that Christ speaks to His people, spiritually causing them to hear and see that they might know/believe the spiritual Kingdom of God.

I believe God providentially works in the life of His people through His Spirit in us. I believe the Spirit will, through our conscience/mind lead us both to will and to do whatever He brings to our heart/mind. This for edification and building up of the body of Christ (church).

Philippians 2:13-16 (KJV) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

Hebrews 10:22-25 (KJV) Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

 

[bdavidc]

I see contradictions in the bible.

For example Matthew says that Judas gave back the money and hung himself. Acts says that Judas bought a field with the money, fell over and his entrails burst out.

Only one can be true.

Another example is that one account of Jesus's birth says they went to Egypt after the birth of Christ. Another account says they went to Nazareth after His birth.

And there are many more.

So although the writings are inspired by God, the humans that wrote them may still get some details wrong. Otherwise how do you account for such contradictions?

You are not showing contradictions. You are assuming contradiction before letting Scripture speak fully.

Matthew says Judas returned the silver, left, and hanged himself: “he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself” ~Matthew 27:5. Acts says the field was connected to “the reward of iniquity” and that Judas fell and burst open ~Acts 1:18. Matthew already explains how that happened: the priests took Judas’s returned blood money and bought the potter’s field ~Matthew 27:6-7. So Judas “bought” the field in the sense that it was purchased with his money. The priests physically made the purchase. That is not a contradiction. That is two parts of the same event.

Same with the birth accounts. Matthew records the flight into Egypt ~Matthew 2:13-15. Luke records the return to Nazareth after “they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord” ~Luke 2:39. Luke does not say, “They went directly to Nazareth with nothing in between.” You are inserting that. Matthew gives details Luke does not mention. Omission is not contradiction.

The real problem is your conclusion: “God inspired it, but the writers may still have gotten details wrong.” That does not come from Scripture. That comes from sitting over Scripture as judge.

Scripture says, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God” ~2 Timothy 3:16. Jesus said, “the scripture cannot be broken” ~John 10:35. He said to the Father, “thy word is truth” ~John 17:17. Peter said “holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost” ~2 Peter 1:21.

So the issue is simple. Scripture is truth because God breathed it out. When man’s reading hits a difficulty, the fault is not in God’s Word. The fault is in man’s understanding.

Different details are not contradictions. Selective accounts are not errors. And a hard passage is not permission to accuse Scripture of falsehood.

 

[Armour of God]

Matthew says Judas returned the silver, left, and hanged himself: “he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself” ~Matthew 27:5. Acts says the field was connected to “the reward of iniquity” and that Judas fell and burst open ~Acts 1:18. Matthew already explains how that happened: the priests took Judas’s returned blood money and bought the potter’s field ~Matthew 27:6-7. So Judas “bought” the field in the sense that it was purchased with his money. The priests physically made the purchase. That is not a contradiction. That is two parts of the same event.

Doesn't explain the death of Judas.
Did he hang himself or did he fall and burst open. Only one can be correct

And who bought the field, the priests or Judas. Only one can be correct
You say the priests bought the field
So Acts was wrong in saying Judas bought the field

Same with the birth accounts. Matthew records the flight into Egypt ~Matthew 2:13-15. Luke records the return to Nazareth after “they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord” ~Luke 2:39. Luke does not say, “They went directly to Nazareth with nothing in between.” You are inserting that. Matthew gives details Luke does not mention. Omission is not contradiction.

All the things according to the law of the Lord such as circumcision only takes 8 days or less. Then it says they went to Nazareth, not to Egypt. Two different accounts

But there are many more examples of contradictions. Humans make mistakes

 

[bdavidc]

Doesn't explain the death of Judas.
Did he hang himself or did he fall and burst open. Only one can be correct

And who bought the field, the priests or Judas. Only one can be correct
You say the priests bought the field
So Acts was wrong in saying Judas bought the field



All the things according to the law of the Lord such as circumcision only takes 8 days or less. Then it says they went to Nazareth, not to Egypt. Two different accounts

But there are many more examples of contradictions. Humans make mistakes

You are still treating partial accounts as contradictions. That is the mistake.

Matthew tells how Judas died by his own act: “he departed, and went and hanged himself” ~Matthew 27:5. Acts tells what happened afterward to his body: “falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out” ~Acts 1:18. Those are not competing deaths. Hanging explains the death. Falling and bursting open explains the aftermath. One account gives one detail, the other gives another.

Same with the field. Matthew says the priests bought the field with Judas’s returned blood money ~Matthew 27:6-7. Acts says Judas purchased a field “with the reward of iniquity” ~Acts 1:18. That is not difficult. The money was Judas’s blood money. The priests made the transaction. Scripture often speaks of a person doing something when it is done through his means or because of his action. Judas did not personally walk into a land office. His money bought the field.

On Luke 2, you are inserting the word “immediately.” Luke says, “when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth” ~Luke 2:39. Matthew records the flight into Egypt before that return ~Matthew 2:13-15. Luke does not deny Egypt. He simply does not mention it. Omission is not contradiction.

The bigger issue is your conclusion: “Humans make mistakes.” Yes, humans do. But Scripture does not say the Holy Spirit made mistakes when He moved men to write. “All scripture is given by inspiration of God” ~2 Timothy 3:16. “The scripture cannot be broken” ~John 10:35. “Thy word is truth” ~John 17:17. “Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost” ~2 Peter 1:21.

So no, a hard passage does not give us permission to call Scripture wrong. It should make us slow down and read more carefully.

 

[Armour of God]

Same with the field. Matthew says the priests bought the field with Judas’s returned blood money ~Matthew 27:6-7. Acts says Judas purchased a field “with the reward of iniquity” ~Acts 1:18. That is not difficult. The money was Judas’s blood money. The priests made the transaction. Scripture often speaks of a person doing something when it is done through his means or because of his action. Judas did not personally walk into a land office. His money bought the field

If the priests bought the field then Acts is wrong in saying that Judas bought the field. It can only be one or the other.

But as I said there are many contradictions in the bible. Here is a list of 50 of them. At some point one must admit that the author got it wrong.

50 Contradictions in the Bible: The Biggest, Most Shocking Differences

 

[Armour of God]

The Dicastery of the Doctrine of the Faith's statement that Valtorta’s writings “cannot be regarded as having supernatural origin” is being misrepresented. That phrasing does not mean “the Church condemns them” or “the Church forbids Catholics from believing them.” It means exactly what it says: the Church has not made a declaration of supernatural origin — which is the case for the vast majority of private revelations, including many widely read and respected ones.

The DDF has repeatedly clarified that:

• Valtorta’s writings are permitted to be read
• Catholics are free to form their own judgment about them

If you want to avoid misinformation, the most recent clarifications about the DDF's statement are worth reading. They directly address the myths that keep circulating: Maria Valtorta and the 2025 Vatican Statement: Clarifying Myths, Facts & Supernatural Status. And, if you're interested, a substantial body of evidence supporting a supernatural origin of her writings can be found here: A Summa and Encyclopedia to Maria Valtorta’s Extraordinary Work.

When people approach Maria Valtorta with a conclusion already in place, they end up searching only for material that confirms what they’ve already decided. But that isn’t objective investigation, especially when the claim concerns something that might be from God.

A Christian, of all people, should understand that discernment requires openness, not prejudice. Scripture itself warns that the enemy works precisely by detouring souls away from anything that could draw them closer to Christ.

That doesn’t mean one must accept Valtorta — private revelation is never binding. But it does mean we should evaluate the evidence fairly, not through the filter of assumptions or fears.

My only point is this: if we’re going to judge whether God used her as an instrument, then we should do so with the same honesty and openness we’d want others to use when evaluating our own beliefs.

@Armour of God
@Debp
@St. SteVen
@quietthinker

Iv already said several times I don't believe in it.
Yet your still telling me about this false prophet.
Your unbelievable.
Please start another thread about it instead of hijacking this one.