Do you believe Spirit baptism replaces water baptism?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Illuminator

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2020
3,389
1,195
113
72
Hamilton
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Where Mr. Wallace sees a "problem" I see a solution.

  • there is no hierarchy of churches responsible to a central head,
I find no Biblical justification for a hierarchy of churches, which is to be expected. There is NO requirement to become a member of a church or a member of denomination. Obedience requires that we become disciples of Jesus Christ and live according to his teaching. Sunday worship and Sunday attendance is NOT a requirement for fellowship with the saints. The basis of our fellowship is our common journey as we walk in the Lord. A hierarchy of Churches or any sort of religious hierarchy is antichrist.

8. Ephesians 4 Refutes the Protestant “Proof Text”​

“All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work” (2 Tim. 3:16–17).

This passage doesn’t teach formal sufficiency, which excludes a binding, authoritative role for Tradition and Church. Protestants extrapolate onto the text what isn’t there. If we look at the overall context of this passage, we can see that Paul makes reference to oral Tradition three times (cf. 2 Tim. 1:13–14; 2:2; 3:14). And to use an analogy, let’s examine a similar passage:

“And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ” (Eph. 4:11–15).

If 2 Timothy 3 proves the sole sufficiency of Scripture, then, by analogy, Ephesians 4 would likewise prove the sufficiency of pastors and teachers for the attainment of Christian perfection. In Ephesians 4, the Christian believer is equipped, built up, brought into unity and mature manhood, and even preserved from doctrinal confusion by means of the teaching function of the Church. This is a far stronger statement of the perfecting of the saints than 2 Timothy 3, yet it does not even mention Scripture.

So if all non-scriptural elements are excluded in 2 Timothy, then, by analogy, Scripture would logically have to be excluded in Ephesians. It is far more reasonable to recognize that the absence of one or more elements in one passage does not mean that they are nonexistent. The Church and Scripture are both equally necessary and important for teaching.
  • no accountability beyond the local congregation,
Jesus Christ is so much above any earthly authority that I can't believe a genuine believer would suggest that the local congregation has no accountability higher than itself.
There is no mention of Christ's heavenly authority, that's a red herring. The local congregation has no authority over any other congregation.
  • no fellowship beyond the local assembly,
Jesus told his disciples "they shall know you by your love." The basis of our fellowship is our common journey in the walk of faith. An authentic Christian has fellowship with any other authentic Christian anywhere in the world and at any time in history based on a common walk with Jesus and a commitment to his teaching.
The basis of our fellowship is our common journey in the walk of faith with no common teaching, not even the Creeds, which are mostly held in common with most non-Catholic Christians. That means you are anti-Protestant.
  • no missional emphasis that gains support from hundreds of congregations, and
The Holy Spirit sends individuals to bring the good news and the Holy Spirit supplies support. The idea that the church of Jesus Christ needs the support of hundreds of congregations is antichrist.
Yea, and you are so anti-institutional you can't even establish an inner city soup kitchen.
  • no superiors to whom a local pastor must submit for doctrinal or ethical fidelity.
Jesus Christ is the local pastor's superior.
But non-denoms deny having pastors because each individual is a pastor. If you have a pastor, his email is a matter of public record.
Mr. Wallace's outline defines the parameters needed to build an empire: fiscal responsibility; source of income; and a centralized power structure. He unwittingly, I suppose, seeks to transform the body of Christ into the leviathan. His outline provides all the working parts of a monster machine, which seeks only to devour all that it sees.
Must you be so nasty? Daniel Wallace is Executive Director of CSNTM & Senior Research Professor of NT Studies at Dallas Theological Seminary. Show a little respect.

The Center for the Study of New Testament Manuscripts (CSNTM) works with an International Advisory Board of experts in New Testament manuscript studies, library sciences, and digital preservation from leading international institutions. This board helps facilitate the Center’s digitization efforts around the world. Greek New Testament manuscripts are in more than 250 sites worldwide, and this global team desires to see them digitized and made available for all to study.

Are you saying Wallace doesn't know his Bible??? Or are you saying you are more scripturally literate then he is???
Or both???
Leviathan??? Spoken like a true Hislopite, or a Jack Chicklet.
I look forward to more infallible opinions.
 
Last edited:

CadyandZoe

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2020
5,759
2,138
113
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is no mention of Christ's heavenly authority, that's a red herring.
Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me."

Jesus clearly tells us that he is the sole authority.

For this reason, he sent his disciples to baptize in his name.

Matthew 28:19
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

This proves that the Apostles had no authority either.
The apostles were not accepting disciples for themselves. They were making disciples for Jesus. For this reason, we do well to study and practice what Jesus taught, being led by the Holy Spirit.

The local congregation has no authority over any other congregation.
It has no authority at all.
The basis of our fellowship is our common journey in the walk of faith with no common teaching, not even the Creeds, which are mostly held in common with most non-Catholic Christians. That means you are anti-Protestant.
Of course I am. I maintain that Jesus didn't come to begin a new religion. I have no religion. Rather, I am a disciple of Jesus Christ, walking in the Spirit of God.
Yea, and you are so anti-institutional you can't even establish an inner city soup kitchen.
One does not need an institution to establish a soup kitchen. But have you never read,

Matthew 14:19
And ordering the crowds to sit down on the grass, He took the five loaves and the two fish, and looked up toward heaven. He blessed the food and breaking the loaves, He gave them to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the crowds.


But non-denoms deny having pastors because each individual is a pastor.
Perhaps some do. So what?
If you have a pastor, his email is a matter of public record.
You can write him if you like.
Must you be so nasty? Daniel Wallace is Executive Director of CSNTM & Senior Research Professor of NT Studies at Dallas Theological Seminary
Are you saying he doesn't know his Bible??? Or are you saying you are more scripturally literate then he is???
Or both???
All I am saying is that Daniel Wallace is wrong. And his motives are suspect.
 
  • Love
Reactions: St. SteVen

Illuminator

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2020
3,389
1,195
113
72
Hamilton
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me."

Jesus clearly tells us that he is the sole authority.

For this reason, he sent his disciples to baptize in his name.
This has nothing to do with congregations having authority over other congregations. Non-denoms have no authority over anybody other than themselves.
Matthew 28:19
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

This proves that the Apostles had no authority either.
This proves you don't know what "therefore" means. It's a conjunctive verb, the sharing of His authority with 'therefore'; to have the authority to to make disciples of all nations, teach baptize, etc. If "the Apostles had no authority", then they had no authority to write scripture either. Your anti-authority mentality is unbiblical and illogical.
The apostles were not accepting disciples for themselves. They were making disciples for Jesus. For this reason, we do well to study and practice what Jesus taught, being led by the Holy Spirit.
Jesus gave the Apostles, therefore, His authority to teach, baptize and make disciples, or they were not led by the Holy Spirit. Not only that, how can 11 men walking on foot, even reach "all nations" without jet planes and helicopters? A literal approach would mean the Apostles were disobedient to Jesus' command. Denial of succession has it's problems.
It has no authority at all.
That's the problem with non-denoms, they have no authority outside the local congregation and you are running all over the map. You said the Apostles have no authority, now you are saying congregations have no authority, but you have self acclaimed authority over-riding a Greek scholar you accuse of being Leviathan. This amounts to spiritual pride.
Of course I am. I maintain that Jesus didn't come to begin a new religion. I have no religion. Rather, I am a disciple of Jesus Christ, walking in the Spirit of God.

One does not need an institution to establish a soup kitchen.
That's my point. You have no inner city soup kitchen which requires an institution to function even at the lowest level. Peter, James and John, together with the Apostles and elders, reached an infallible decision. That's an institution. Now we have to play dictionary games because you have your own private definition for common words because you like to run in circles.
But have you never read,

Matthew 14:19
And ordering the crowds to sit down on the grass, He took the five loaves and the two fish, and looked up toward heaven. He blessed the food and breaking the loaves, He gave them to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the crowds.
Off topic. Matthew 14:19 foreshadows the power of God to multiply His Body and Blood for the life of the world, that you deny, so why are you citing this verse? More running in circles.

Perhaps some do. So what?

You can write him if you like.
I would. Did he finish high school? Did you?
All I am saying is that Daniel Wallace is wrong. And his motives are suspect.
Bold words for someone whose opinions are infallible, and has not even read his profile, and has no formal theological training, and refuses to check to see if myths and lies are found in a reliable source, as per my signature.
You may be walking in the Spirit of God, but you have no authority to teach lies, especially about the Catholic faith.
 

CadyandZoe

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2020
5,759
2,138
113
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I didn't miss the point.
Really? Based on your answer, I don't think you understood what I said. But I don't blame you. A few on this board have told me that my posts are hard to understand.

By what authority do you claim the non-denominalite to be more true than the Baptist's supposed errors?
Indeed, I was misunderstood. My story was meant to illustrate two issues: 1) blind loyalty to a tradition, and 2) the necessity of intellectual honesty. The story was NOT given in order to highlight the superiority of non-denominationalism over Baptist theology.

Paul's word to Timothy was centered on the superiority of divine revelation over the traditions of men. Paul encouraged Timothy to allow the scriptures to stand as a critique of Jewish tradition. The Scriptures (divine revelation) are the basis for a critical evaluation of Judaism, just as the scriptures stand as the basis for a critical evaluation of Catholicism, Baptist, Lutheranism, Calvinism, or what have you.

You said that you filter your understanding of the scriptures through the lens of Church and tradition. And you asked "so what?" The answer is clear. Any passage of scripture filtered through traditional doctrines will never be critical of those doctrines. A Catholic has been inoculated against an honest critique of his beliefs because passages that stand in contradiction to Catholic theology have been interpreted in such a way that the passages are supportive of Catholic theology.

My story was based on actual events, but it applies to any form of religious commitment. The Baptist pastor rejected the correct interpretation of a Biblical passage, not because it was false, but because it challenged his loyalty to the Baptist religion. A Catholic might do the same thing. He might reject a valid interpretation of a passage if it meant giving up his Catholicism. Loyalty to a religious tradition is a fatal mistake.

Consider the passage in context,

2Timothy 3:14-17
You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and beneficial for teaching, for rebuke, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man or woman of God may be fully capable, equipped for every good work.

Paul reminds Timothy "from whom" he received his instruction. The sacred writings contain a record of God's will, divine wisdom and instruction, so that "the man or woman of God may be fully capable, equipped for every good work." Paul talks about being persecuted and we know, based on his letters and the book of Acts that the main source of his persecution are the leaders of the Jewish religion. Paul challenged the Jewish religion as he made his appeal from the scriptures.


All the Baptist pastoral hospital chaplains I've met (I met a lot of them working in hospitals) have, or are working on, their Masters in Divinity degree (AKA "M-vid". They have formal pastoral care training in Christian psychology and counselling. Patients make a request to the nurse who contacts the pastoral care department for a visit. Every hospital has one.
This is the way of the world. Who pays someone to give them comfort? And what is a paid comforter called?
Non-denominationists have no way of knowing who would be the most qualified to lead/participate in hospital ministry. Patients have to trust Sister Goodie2shoes to minister to their complex needs. Non-denominationists can visit as friends, but not as chaplain-to-patient. Hospitals can't allow fake chaplains; it's illegal, not to mention dangerous.
To suggest that a patient needs a chaplain is worldly thinking. When I was a patient in the hospital, having suffered heart failure, I was a chaplain to the nurses. What people need are mature believers to guide them. To suggest that patients need someone with a theology degree is worldly thinking.

This reminds me of a woman who was taking a course of study in school in order to become a hospital councilor. When her mother died she was unable or unwilling to visit with her father in his grief. What her father needed was a daughter, not a theologian.

Yes, but so does everybody else base their interpretation on some sort of ecclesial structure, except non-denominationists, who have no ecclesiology.
I don't agree with your premise. Just because Catholics do this, doesn't mean that everyone does.

I, for one, base my interpretation of the Bible on a system of Bible study called "authorial intent." The question isn't "what did our tradition hand down?" The question is, "what did the author of the passage intend to say?" In my experience, I find that my former training in a traditional view has hampered my efforts to discover what the author actually meant to say.
They oppose any kind of authoritive leadership or structured theology. It's relativism to the extreme, and the purest form of reformism they claim they don't follow. :contemplate:
I don't agree with this premise either. Relativism is not the only alternative to authoritarianism. But freedom of conscience is the only venue able to support a genuine faith. Affirming a proposition under duress is not faith or belief. There is nothing noble about an Unwavering yet unexamined set of beliefs, based on the traditions of men.

Using convincing reasons and sledgehammer logic, non-denominationists uphold the Principle of Private Judgement, where each individual is entitled to re-construct the meaning of scripture for himself, or start a new "fellowship".
I don't accept your premise that private judgment necessarily requires a reconstruction of the meaning of scripture.
Your premises is flawed. You are determining to know automatically the non-denominationist is qualified to teach someone who studied a good part of their life, including some degree of spiritual maturity. "Me-the-Bible-and-the-Holy-Spirit" mentality is for spiritual infants and endless division..
You speak without knowledge. Anyone who has lived the life you describe understands that such a life requires courage and dedication. Living outside the comfort and "safety" of a tradition is frightening and filled with self-doubt. But such is the lonely road of faith. It's scary out in the real world, but one must venture out into the real world if one is to grow and mature. Authoritarianism is the enemy of faith and growth and maturity. One can not grow unless one is free to make mistakes.
Through all forms of individualism runs the note of emphasis upon the importance of self in opposition to either restraint or assistance from without.
Of course. Genuine Christian faith is an existential faith. That is, Christian faith defines my existence and Christian faith is the hope of permanence. We each must stand as individuals before the judgment seat of Christ.
I just receive the divine message from qualified, annointed teachers that they received that they recieved traced back to the Apostles with truckloads of consistency and documented evidence. You are stuck starting over with each individual.
Faith without evidence? What good is that? The substance of our debate is trust. You trust folks that I don't trust. Simple as that.
I try to find common ground which is hard to do with thousands of individual theologies going around.
I wouldn't expect you to do anything that I am not already doing.
Our common ground has a cross in the middle of it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
8,622
3,912
113
68
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
... two issues: 1) blind loyalty to a tradition, and 2) the necessity of intellectual honesty. ...
Wow. Well stated. Thanks.
Two things sorely absent from Christianity.
Today and historically. (for many different reasons, I suppose)

1) blind loyalty to a tradition, and
2) the necessity of intellectual honesty.

And more than just "Tradition", I would say.
Many present their biblical opinions as if it is God speaking.
Typically stated as: "You can take that up with God!" Or,
"Who should I believe, you, or the Word of God?"

Same with man-made doctrines. Tribal loyalties.
Labeling opponents with "isms".

In reference to "intellectual honesty", the suppression of outside "influences".
And even information that might be used to challenge our beliefs.
Like, where did the Bible come from REALLY ???

The honest researcher stunned by the fact that
we don't have the original manuscripts. Say what?
 
  • Like
Reactions: CadyandZoe

Illuminator

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2020
3,389
1,195
113
72
Hamilton
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Indeed, I was misunderstood. My story was meant to illustrate two issues: 1) blind loyalty to a tradition, and 2) the necessity of intellectual honesty. The story was NOT given in order to highlight the superiority of non-denominationalism over Baptist theology.
What's intellectually dishonest is the never ending false tradition of "blind loyalty to a tradition". That has nothing to do with Sacred Tradition. The authority of Scripture is one of many Sacred Traditions, so the sola scripturist cannot escape their own false definition of it, no matter how eloquently it is explained. You redefine Sacred Tradition to mean blind loyalty, which is ridiculous and intellectually dishonest.

Many Protestants (especially anti-Catholic ones) hold, by and large, the view that Scripture and sacred, apostolic tradition are somehow unalterably opposed to each other and, for all practical purposes, mutually exclusive. This is yet another example of a false dichotomy which Protestantism often (unfortunately) tends to create (e.g., faith vs. works, matter vs. spirit). The Bible, however, presupposes tradition as an entity prior to and larger than itself, from which it is derived, not as some sort of “dirty word.”

It is one thing to wrongly assert that Catholic tradition (the beliefs and dogmas which the Church claims to have preserved intact passed down from Christ and the apostles) is corrupt, excessive and unbiblical.

It is quite another to think that the very concept of tradition is contrary to the outlook of the Bible and pure, essential Christianity. This is, broadly speaking, a popular and widespread variant of the distinctive Protestant viewpoint of sola Scriptura, or “Scripture Alone,” which was one of the rallying cries of the Protestant Revolt in the 16th century. It remains the supreme principle of authority, or “rule of faith” for evangelical Protestants today. Sola Scriptura by its very nature tends to pit tradition against the Bible.

First of all, one might also loosely define tradition as the authoritative and authentic Christian history of theological doctrines and devotional practices. Christianity, like Judaism before it, is fundamentally grounded in history: in the earth-shattering historical events in the life of Jesus Christ (the incarnation, miracles, crucifixion, resurrection, ascension, etc.). Eyewitnesses (Lk 1:1-2, Acts 1:1-3, 2 Pet 1:16-18) communicated these true stories to the first Christians, who in turn passed them on to other Christians (under the guidance of the Church’s authority) down through the ages. Therefore, Christian tradition, defined as authentic Church history, is unavoidable.

Many Protestants read the accounts of Jesus’ conflicts with the Pharisees and get the idea that He was utterly opposed to all tradition whatsoever. This is false. A close reading of passages such as Matthew 15:3-9 and Mark 7: 8-13 will reveal that He only condemned corrupt traditions of men, not tradition per se. He uses qualifying phrases like “your tradition,” “commandments of men,” “tradition of men,” as opposed to “the commandment of God.” St. Paul draws precisely the same contrast in Colossians 2:8: “See to it that no one makes a prey of you by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ.”

The New Testament explicitly teaches that traditions can be either good (from God) or bad (from men, when against God’s true traditions). Corrupt pharisaic teachings were a bad tradition (but many of their legitimate teachings were recognized by Jesus; see, e.g., Matthew 23:3). The spoken gospel and the apostolic writings which eventually were formulated as Holy Scripture (authoritatively recognized by the Church in 397 A. D. at the council of Carthage) were altogether good: the authentic Christian tradition as revealed by the incarnate God to the apostles.

The Greek word for “tradition” in the New Testament is paradosis. It occurs in Colossians 2:8, and in the following three passages:

1 Corinthians 11:2 (RSV) . . . maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you. (NRSV, NEB, REB, NKJV, NASB all use “tradition”).

2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

2 Thessalonians 3:6: Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.

Note that St. Paul draws no qualitative distinction between written and oral tradition. He doesn’t regard oral Christian tradition as bad and undesirable. Rather, this false belief is, ironically, itself an unbiblical “tradition of men.”

When the first Christians went out and preached the Good News of Jesus Christ after Pentecost, this was an oral tradition proclaimed by “word of mouth.” Some of it got recorded in the Bible (e.g., in Acts 2) but most did not, and could not (see John 20:30; 21:25). It was primarily this oral Christian tradition that turned the world upside down, not the text of the New Testament (many if not most people couldn’t read then anyway). Accordingly, when the phrases “word of God” or “word of the Lord” occur in Acts and the epistles, they almost always refer to oral preaching, not to the written word of the Bible. A perusal of the context in each case will make this abundantly clear.

Furthermore, the related Greek words paradidomi and paralambano are usually rendered “delivered” and “received” respectively. St. Paul in particular repeatedly refers to this handing over of the Christian tradition:
1) Traditions “delivered” (1 Cor 11:2), “taught . . . by word of mouth or by letter” (2 Thes 2:15), and “received” (2 Thes 3:6).
2) The Gospel “preached” and “received” (1 Cor 15:1-2; Gal 1:9, 12; 1 Thes 2:9).
3) Word of God “heard” and “received” (Acts 8:14; 1 Thes 2:13).
4) Doctrine “delivered” (Rom 6:17; cf. Acts 2:42).
5) Holy Commandment “delivered” (2 Pet 2:21; cf. Mt 15:3-9; Mk 7:8-13).
6) The Faith “delivered” (Jude 3).
7) “. . . things which have been accomplished among us” were “delivered” (Lk 1:1-2).

Clearly, all these concepts are synonymous in Scripture, and all are predominantly oral. In St. Paul’s writing alone we find four of these expressions used interchangeably. And in just the two Thessalonian epistles, “gospel,” “word of God,” and “tradition” are regarded as referring to the same thing. Thus, we must unavoidably conclude that “tradition” is not a dirty word in the Bible. Or, if one insists on maintaining that it is, then “gospel” and “word of God” are also bad words! Scripture allows no other conclusion: the exegetical evidence is simply too plain.

To conclude our biblical survey, we again cite St. Paul and his stress on the central importance of oral tradition:
2 Timothy 1:13-14 Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus;
[14] guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us.

2 Timothy 2:2 and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

St. Paul is here urging Timothy not only to “follow the pattern” of his oral teaching “heard from me,” but to also pass it on to others. Thus we find a clear picture of some sort of authentic historical continuity of Christian doctrine. This is precisely what the Catholic Church calls tradition, or, when emphasizing the teaching authority of bishops in the Church, “apostolic succession.” The phrase “deposit of faith” is also used when describing the original gospel teaching as handed over or delivered to the apostles (see, e.g., Acts 2:42; Jude 3).

The Catholic Church considers itself merely the custodian or guardian of this revelation from God. The New Testament itself is a written encapsulation of primitive, apostolic Christianity: the authoritative and inspired written revelation of God’s new covenant. It is a development, so to speak, of both the Old Testament and early oral Christian preaching and teaching (i.e., tradition). The process of canonization of the New Testament took over 300 years and involved taking into account human opinions and traditions as to which books were believed to be Scripture.

Thus, the Bible cannot be separated and isolated from tradition and a developmental process. Christianity does not take the view of Islam, whose written revelation, the Q’uran, simply came down from heaven from Allah to Mohammad, without involving human participation in the least. Some extreme, fundamentalist forms of sola Scriptura have a very similar outlook, but these fail the test of Scripture itself, like all the other manifestations of the “Bible Alone” mentality. As we have seen, Scripture does not nullify or anathematize Christian tradition, which is larger and more all-encompassing than itself; quite the contrary.
source
 
Last edited:

Illuminator

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2020
3,389
1,195
113
72
Hamilton
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Oral Tradition that is mentioned in 1 Cor 11:2; 2 Thess 3:14-15; 2 Thess 2:15, etc. does not refer to orally transmitting the message of the Bible. It refers to the Oral Tradition apart from the Written Tradition (the Bible).

The Oral Tradition has not been corrupted and we know this for three reasons:

1) Oral Tradition and Written Tradition compliment one another and not contradict each other. But not everything is written in the Bible, according to the Bible itself (i.e. John 21:25; Acts 20:35). Thus since not everything is in the written record if Oral Tradition says something that is not explicit in the Written Tradition that does not make the Oral Tradition wrong. It only means that that subject was not mentioned in the Written Record.

Oral Tradition was a long time aspect of the religious life of the Jews. They recognized the existence of Divine Oral Tradition. There are some passages in the New Testament, for example, that refer to the Divine Revelation of the Old Testament but deal with items not in the written Old Testament. It is obvious the Apostles knew and believed in a Divine Oral Tradition.

2) The importance of Oral Tradition is great. This is seen by the fact that St. Paul tells us to listen to and obey Tradition (that is Divine Tradition, not human customs) as Scripture. He even tells us that people who do not follow this Divine Oral Tradition are to be shunned (2 Thess 3:14).

All the possible teachings of Jesus cannot possible be placed into one book and the Bible itself affirms. Also, there were no New Testament Scriptures in the early decades of the Church. All that existed was the Oral Tradition of the Apostles. Even after the letters of the New Testament began to be written and passed around it was not until the 4th century that the Church put in place exactly which letters were to be considered Scripture and which were not. How the bishops made that decision was, in part, on whether the letter in question was consistent with the Oral Tradition handed down from the Apostles.

Oral Tradition ALWAYS precedes Written Tradition. Written Tradition (the bible) is a small subset of the larger Oral Tradition. This has always been the case - in the Old Testament and in the New Testament times.

3) Proper concern is whether or not this Divine Oral Tradition is passed on from generation to generation accurately. Well, God is not so cruel that He would not account for some way to preserve His Word. His Word, after all is life. We must have a way to preserve the Word of God. God did that through a Magisterium protected by the Holy Spirit. God has ALWAYS had a Magisterium. In the Old Testament times we had the Chair of Moses that Jesus mentions in Matt 23:2. For the New Covenant a new chair of authority was put into place --- just as was done with the previous four covenants in Old Testament times. This new chair was and is the Chair of Peter (Matt 16, Isa 22:21-23).

But how to we check to be sure, if we do not have the faith to trust God's Magisterium? Well, the same way that we can know for sure that the Bible we read today is the what was actually written in the First Century -- by comparing what we have today with the written record of history.

In the case of the Bible, we compare what we have today with extant manuscripts from as close to the first century as possible.

In the case of the Oral Tradition, the same is true. We look to extant manuscripts of sermons, essays, Church documents, etc. from the Church Fathers that affirm that what we believe today is the same things that they believed then.

There is NO doctrine of the Catholic Church that cannot be traced to the early Church. Over the centuries our understanding of doctrine has matured from that of the infant Church, but the doctrine remains unchanged. We know this because we can prove it with documentary evidence.

When Protestants posit a theological belief that is contrary to what the Catholics believe, I ask that person to show me where any of the Church Fathers believed has he believes. If the early Christians believed as the Protestants do today there would be some evidence of this -- essays, sermons, writings of some sort. But there are none. The Catholic Church, however, can produce truckloads of extant manuscripts from the First, Second, and Third Centuries that show the foundation for ALL that the Catholic Church believes.

This evidence is overwhelming and sure. There are no other works of antiquity that we are as sure about as we are about the teachings of the Catholic Church.

One of the rules of historical documentary evidence is that a manuscript that was written or copied 50 years after the actual event or after the original autograph is most likely to be more accurate than a copy made 500 years late.

Well the oldest extant manuscript we have of Plato was a copy made 900 years after Plato's death. In actuality we cannot possible know for sure if those writings are actually Plato's. But with the New Testament writings we have extant copies only a few decades from the original autographs. This is POWERFUL evidence that the Bible we have today is indeed the accurate writings of the Apostles.

In similar manner, we have extant copies of the thinking and teachings of the Church Fathers that we can compare to prove that the Oral Tradition we teach today had its foundations and beginnings in the early Church.

If a person is to believe that the Platonic Dialogues are actually written by Plato, then one should have no problems believing that the Oral Tradition of the Church is intact for the evidence for the Church is nearly absolute, the evidence for Plato is essentially speculative.
 

CadyandZoe

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2020
5,759
2,138
113
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What's intellectually dishonest is the never ending false tradition of "blind loyalty to a tradition". That has nothing to do with Sacred Tradition. The authority of Scripture is one of many Sacred Traditions, so the sola scripturist cannot escape their own false definition of it, no matter how eloquently it is explained. You redefine Sacred Tradition to mean blind loyalty, which is ridiculous and intellectually dishonest.
From my perspective, there is no such thing as "Sacred Tradition." Either a person is a disciple of Jesus Christ or he isn't.

Many Protestants (especially anti-Catholic ones) hold, by and large, the view that Scripture and sacred, apostolic tradition are somehow unalterably opposed to each other and, for all practical purposes, mutually exclusive. This is yet another example of a false dichotomy which Protestantism often (unfortunately) tends to create (e.g., faith vs. works, matter vs. spirit). The Bible, however, presupposes tradition as an entity prior to and larger than itself, from which it is derived, not as some sort of “dirty word.”
The Bible not only presupposes "tradition" It often stands in opposition to it. A man who leans on tradition asks "Isn't this what we have always believed?" That is absolutely the wrong question to ask. The Child of God ought to ask, "Is this what Jesus taught?" And the only place to find that answer is in the scriptures.


It is one thing to wrongly assert that Catholic tradition (the beliefs and dogmas which the Church claims to have preserved intact passed down from Christ and the apostles) is corrupt, excessive and unbiblical.
The only valid question with respect to any doctrine is whether the inerrant, inspired scriptures teach it or not. Tradition can't answer that question.
It is quite another to think that the very concept of tradition is contrary to the outlook of the Bible and pure, essential Christianity. This is, broadly speaking, a popular and widespread variant of the distinctive Protestant viewpoint of sola Scriptura, or “Scripture Alone,” which was one of the rallying cries of the Protestant Revolt in the 16th century. It remains the supreme principle of authority, or “rule of faith” for evangelical Protestants today. Sola Scriptura by its very nature tends to pit tradition against the Bible.

Duh. Of course.
First of all, one might also loosely define tradition as the authoritative and authentic Christian history of theological doctrines and devotional practices.
I would never grant that as a given.
Christianity, like Judaism before it, is fundamentally grounded in history: in the earth-shattering historical events in the life of Jesus Christ (the incarnation, miracles, crucifixion, resurrection, ascension, etc.). Eyewitnesses (Lk 1:1-2, Acts 1:1-3, 2 Pet 1:16-18) communicated these true stories to the first Christians, who in turn passed them on to other Christians (under the guidance of the Church’s authority) down through the ages. Therefore, Christian tradition, defined as authentic Church history, is unavoidable.
I do not accept the so-called ECF's as being authoritative. In my view, the add nothing to me.
Many Protestants read the accounts of Jesus’ conflicts with the Pharisees and get the idea that He was utterly opposed to all tradition whatsoever. This is false. A close reading of passages such as Matthew 15:3-9 and Mark 7: 8-13 will reveal that He only condemned corrupt traditions of men, not tradition per se.
What other kinds are there? All traditions are corrupted.
He uses qualifying phrases like “your tradition,” “commandments of men,” “tradition of men,” as opposed to “the commandment of God.” St. Paul draws precisely the same contrast in Colossians 2:8: “See to it that no one makes a prey of you by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ.”
He would say the same thing about your man-made traditions.
The New Testament explicitly teaches that traditions can be either good (from God) or bad (from men, when against God’s true traditions). Corrupt pharisaic teachings were a bad tradition (but many of their legitimate teachings were recognized by Jesus; see, e.g., Matthew 23:3). The spoken gospel and the apostolic writings which eventually were formulated as Holy Scripture (authoritatively recognized by the Church in 397 A. D. at the council of Carthage) were altogether good: the authentic Christian tradition as revealed by the incarnate God to the apostles.
I could care less whether some men in Carthage recognized the scriptures as scriptures. In my ears, it's like saying that a group of Catholics got together to recognize that 2 +2 = 4. Nothing remarkable about it.
The Greek word for “tradition” in the New Testament is paradosis. It occurs in Colossians 2:8, and in the following three passages:
Even if Paul commended a particular "tradition", it doesn't follow that he was commending YOUR tradition. Christians should NOT be asking, "what have we always believed"; they should be asking "what did Jesus teach?"
 

Illuminator

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2020
3,389
1,195
113
72
Hamilton
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
From my perspective, there is no such thing as "Sacred Tradition." Either a person is a disciple of Jesus Christ or he isn't.
Then refute the above two posts with scripture. Sacred Tradition is not a person.
The Bible not only presupposes "tradition" It often stands in opposition to it. A man who leans on tradition asks "Isn't this what we have always believed?" That is absolutely the wrong question to ask. The Child of God ought to ask, "Is this what Jesus taught?" And the only place to find that answer is in the scriptures.
This is not a reply to the above two posts, it's an unsubstantiated DENIAL.
The only valid question with respect to any doctrine is whether the inerrant, inspired scriptures teach it or not. Tradition can't answer that question.
Because you are chained to a false definition of Tradition
Duh. Of course.

I would never grant that as a given.

I do not accept the so-called ECF's as being authoritative. In my view, the add nothing to me.
The ECF compiled the books of the Bible, so your position is self defeating.
The ECF reveal a continuity of authentic beliefs and practices of the early church that we still have. You can't (by your own denial) so you have to reconstruct the early church to fit your world view. Worse than that, there is no evidence of "sola scriptura" or "sola fide" found anywhere in the early church, because they are man made traditions. Next, you are forced to invent silly Bible origin fantasies that can't be found in a stack of encyclopedias, that you don't need because you have a Bible.
What other kinds are there? All traditions are corrupted.

He would say the same thing about your man-made traditions.
Because you are a slave to a false definition of Tradition. It's carefully explained in the above 2 posts; obviously you skimmed over with rebellious lenses.
I could care less whether some men in Carthage recognized the scriptures as scriptures. In my ears, it's like saying that a group of Catholics got together to recognize that 2 +2 = 4. Nothing remarkable about it.
But you said, "I do not accept the so-called ECF's as being authoritative" but they recognized inspiration of true books from false books with authority that you say they didn't have.
1681076931261.jpeg
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how badly you contradict yourself.
Even if Paul commended a particular "tradition", it doesn't follow that he was commending YOUR tradition. Christians should NOT be asking, "what have we always believed"; they should be asking "what did Jesus teach?"
What was always believed was taught by Jesus, passed by word or letter, both divinely preserved by God, as I explained in the above post, that you failed to refute with relevant scripture.
 
Last edited:

Illuminator

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2020
3,389
1,195
113
72
Hamilton
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
The Catholic Church holds onto both Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture. However, these two fundamental pillars of the Church are not an either/or distinction. Unlike the relatively modern Protestant idea of 'sola scriptura' (the bible alone is all we need), the Catholic Church has always held onto both Tradition and Scripture.

When you quote a single passage from the bible to disprove the idea of Tradition and Scripture, you are working backwards. The first questions you need to ask are: What is scripture? Who decides what books are in the bible?
St. Paul says in the quote you mentioned, "All scripture, inspired by God, is profitable...". How do we know that 2 Timothy is a scripture inspired by God and is not just another letter/book?

After recently taking a course called "Bible through the Ages", I have learned how important these questions are. The Bible itself is a tradition, the books that are in our Bible today are passed down from our Catholic tradition (the Holy Spirit guided the Bishops in this process). When Paul was writing the letter to Timothy, all of the books in our current bible hadn't even been written yet! Nowhere in the Bible does it tell us which books should be in our out.

In the same way, what are we to do when we have a disagreement on the meaning of scripture? The meaning of the scripture in your question is important, and there can be many different interpretations. Since the Catholic Bishops (under the guidance of the Holy Spirit) selected which books that were to be in the Bible, there is nothing in the Bible that contradicts Catholic teaching (otherwise it wouldn't be in!). Christ gave authority to the Church (Matthew 16:18); this authority includes but is not limited to selecting the books to be in the Bible, and interpreting the Bible.

It's important to note that this is not a case of the chicken and the egg.
The Bible came from the Tradition of the Church, not vice-versa.
 

CadyandZoe

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2020
5,759
2,138
113
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Then refute the above two posts with scripture. Sacred Tradition is not a person.
No.
This is not a reply to the above two posts, it's an unsubstantiated DENIAL.
You don't get it. Denials don't need to be substantiated.
Because you are chained to a false definition of Tradition
Wrong. I follow no tradition at all.
The ECF compiled the books of the Bible, so your position is self defeating.
Someone compllied the books of the Bible. It wasn't the ECFs.
The ECF reveal a continuity of authentic beliefs and practices of the early church that we still have.
They reveal what the early church believed. But it doesn't follow that what they believed was true.
You can't (by your own denial) so you have to reconstruct the early church to fit your world view.
Negative. I don't reconstruct anything.
Worse than that, there is no evidence of "sola scriptura" or "sola fide" found anywhere in the early church, because they are man made traditions.
As I said, what they believed was often mistaken and wrong.
Next, you are forced to invent silly Bible origin fantasies that can't be found in a stack of encyclopedias, that you don't need because you have a Bible.
I have a Bible right in front of me, if you deny that what I have is Holy Scripture, then my lack is your lack.
Because you are a slave to a false definition of Tradition.
No, you have a false reliance on tradition.
It's carefully explained in the above 2 posts; obviously you skimmed over with rebellious lenses.
I never read them.
But you said, "I do not accept the so-called ECF's as being authoritative" but they recognized inspiration of true books from false books with authority that you say they didn't have.
Wrong. The question they answered was, "Aren't these the texts that the church has always agreed were scripture?"
View attachment 31262
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how badly you contradict yourself
You have a vivid imagination.

What was always believed was taught by Jesus, passed by word or letter, both divinely preserved by God, as I explained in the above post, that you failed to refute with relevant scripture.
I don't need to refute the ECF's because, 1) they aren't actually fathers, 2) they are wrong a lot of the time, 3) they have no special dispensation or infallibility. The only thing they have in common is the means to write down their thoughts and permission to publish.

You are leaving a lot of clues that you also lack confidence in the ECF's. You also seem to lack confidence in your traditions. What's up with that?
 
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen

CadyandZoe

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2020
5,759
2,138
113
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Oral Tradition that is mentioned in 1 Cor 11:2; 2 Thess 3:14-15; 2 Thess 2:15, etc. does not refer to orally transmitting the message of the Bible. It refers to the Oral Tradition apart from the Written Tradition (the Bible).
Oral tradition is a black box into which no one alive today can see. Therefore, any claims about Oral tradition are suspect and bear no weight. If there ever was content to the black box, and I doubt content ever existed, then the content is now lost. Any claims concerning Oral Tradition's supposed supremacy or preeminence or predication are highly suspect and fatally dubious.


The Oral Tradition has not been corrupted and we know this for three reasons:
Oral Tradition is a black box. No one can know anything at all about the content, let alone answer to corruption.
1) Oral Tradition and Written Tradition compliment one another and not contradict each other. But not everything is written in the Bible, according to the Bible itself (i.e. John 21:25; Acts 20:35). Thus since not everything is in the written record if Oral Tradition says something that is not explicit in the Written Tradition that does not make the Oral Tradition wrong. It only means that that subject was not mentioned in the Written Record.
Oral Tradition is a black box. As such, it can't answer to correctness.
Oral Tradition was a long time aspect of the religious life of the Jews. They recognized the existence of Divine Oral Tradition. There are some passages in the New Testament, for example, that refer to the Divine Revelation of the Old Testament but deal with items not in the written Old Testament. It is obvious the Apostles knew and believed in a Divine Oral Tradition.
Just because an apostle cites an extra Biblical work, it does not follow that the apostle considers it to be scripture or that it should be used uncritically.
2) The importance of Oral Tradition is great. This is seen by the fact that St. Paul tells us to listen to and obey Tradition (that is Divine Tradition, not human customs) as Scripture. He even tells us that people who do not follow this Divine Oral Tradition are to be shunned (2 Thess 3:14).
Paul limited his commendation to specific traditions he, himself, delivered. He gave no blanket approval to a Tradition, oral or written. And he rescinded them when necessary.
All the possible teachings of Jesus cannot possible be placed into one book and the Bible itself affirms.
Maybe that is true. But any proposition claiming to be a teaching of Jesus, should not be affirmed without evidence. And a candidate teaching will never contradict what Jesus already taught. The extant scriptures are the only inspired, infallible record of apostolic teaching.

Also, there were no New Testament Scriptures in the early decades of the Church. All that existed was the Oral Tradition of the Apostles.
Oral Tradition is a black box. Your claims about the content of the black box can't be falsified. Any claims of an extant Oral Tradition of the Apostles is dubious.
Even after the letters of the New Testament began to be written and passed around it was not until the 4th century that the Church put in place exactly which letters were to be considered Scripture and which were not.
Just because a group of people decided to confirm the canon, it doesn't follow that the extant scriptures were not inspired or infallible until then. The gospels and the epistles were inspired and infallible the day their respective authors "penned" them.
How the bishops made that decision was, in part, on whether the letter in question was consistent with the Oral Tradition handed down from the Apostles.
Again, Oral Tradition is a black box; claims about what Bishops did with the alleged content is unprovable.
Oral Tradition ALWAYS precedes Written Tradition. Written Tradition (the bible) is a small subset of the larger Oral Tradition. This has always been the case - in the Old Testament and in the New Testament times.
While the Bible might be smaller, and while the Bible might have other original sources, the Bible has a special claim on the truth. The Bible is the only inspired and infallible record of God's will. Tradition can not make that claim.

Why do I believe this? Jesus my Lord taught us that the scriptures can't be broken. John 10:35.

3) Proper concern is whether or not this Divine Oral Tradition is passed on from generation to generation accurately.
I remain unconcerned because my faith does not depend on Oral Tradition.
In the case of the Oral Tradition, the same is true. We look to extant manuscripts of sermons, essays, Church documents, etc. from the Church Fathers that affirm that what we believe today is the same things that they believed then.
Christians simply read their Bibles.
There is NO doctrine of the Catholic Church that cannot be traced to the early Church.
God and Jesus are the predicate of the truth, not church history.

Over the centuries our understanding of doctrine has matured from that of the infant Church, but the doctrine remains unchanged. We know this because we can prove it with documentary evidence.
Not all documents are inspired and infallible. ALL you can know is what people said they believed. But what they believed might be wrong. The scriptures stand alone as the sole, and reliable source of God's revealed will for mankind.
When Protestants posit a theological belief that is contrary to what the Catholics believe, I ask that person to show me where any of the Church Fathers believed has he believes.
Wrong question. First of all, there is no such thing as an early church father. Second of all, the only answer that can be found among their writings is what they believed, not what the apostles believed.

If the early Christians believed as the Protestants do today there would be some evidence of this -- essays, sermons, writings of some sort.
False. If we have learned anything from the past four or five years it's this. The dominant paradigm resists opposition. Those in charge will not allow contradictory opinions to be published. In other words, a lack of evidence is not evidence. The essays, sermons and writings that survived are those writings approved by those in power.
But there are none. The Catholic Church, however, can produce truckloads of extant manuscripts from the First, Second, and Third Centuries that show the foundation for ALL that the Catholic Church believes.
Of course. This is to be expected. Dissent doesn't get published.
 

Marymog

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2017
11,462
1,704
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jerome, who mistranslated the Latin text, ..... wrote that you are "born again By water".

"Born again....... BY water".

That is the "cult of Mary", "baptismal regeneration" heresy that teaches that water washes your sin away and also performs the "REGENERATION" of your Spirit.
This is why the CC is so WATER minded, so involved with WATER WATER WATER.
You absolutely were taught this and teach this, Marymog, as i quoted your post.
That is "WATER" causing you to be "born again", that you believe, as does the POPE.
That is "Jerome" = who mistranslated John 3, that denies its the HOLY SPIRIT that causes us to be Born again.
That is the Catholic Bible, the Douay Rheims version, where this is found.

This stuff, that Jerome mistranslated that became the CC doctrine, along with Him mistranslating Repentance as "Penance" has a great deal to do with why Martin Luther left the CC.
Lol....Jerome, who mistranslated the Latin text? :vgood:
 

Marymog

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2017
11,462
1,704
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Illogical to you perhaps, but not to others who have the ability to think independently.
Do you REALLY not see how illogical your statement is?

So NOW you are saying that priests don't have the abiblity to think independently....but YOU do.

Your killing me here Jim B......killing me!!!!
 

Marymog

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2017
11,462
1,704
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Nobody is saying tha water baptism is unimportant. However, it is not required. It is a symbolic statement that the sinful "old man" and the "new man" has been resurrected into a new life in Christ.
Jim Jim Jim,

We are not required to do what He told us to do in Matthew 28:19?

And in Acts 2:38 Peter DIDN'T say, Repent and be baptized, that is unless you don't want to be baptized because that is not the important part, but I am strongly suggesting that you be baptized....for the forgiveness of your sins.


What man taught you that?
 

Marymog

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2017
11,462
1,704
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Baptism of the Holy Spirit is the only baptism that saves you. Water baptism is a ritual of repentance, a symbolic death of the "old man" and the resurrection of the "new man" in Christ.

If this wasn't the case then all the people whom John baptized had no need for a savior. Obvious!!!
When one is baptized, they receive the Holy Spirit Jim B. It is not "symbolic" to have a remission of sins or receive the Holy Spirit Jim B. It IS a necessary saving ritual...just like Scripture says. Have you not read that in Scripture?

Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

baptism doth also now save us (1 Peter 3:21)


All the people whom John baptized were re-baptized Jim Bo....
 

Marymog

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2017
11,462
1,704
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Are you joking? John 3:5 says, "Jesus answered, “Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit." A person is born of water (naturally) and born of the Spirit (supernaturally). This has nothing to do with the ritual of water baptism.

Acts 2:38, "Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Baptism means immersion. This does not refer to the ritual of water baptism. Was there some kind of giant tank of water handy to baptize all these people? It's absurd!

What is more absurd is conflating separate, out-of-context selections from Scripture to form a predetermined doctrine. "Jesus was baptized in WATER as a example we are to follow and the Spirit came down upon him.
He then said we are born again thru WATER and Spirit (just like he was). He and his apostles then went out and baptized with WATER and said 'receive the gift of the Holy Spirit'

Why did Jesus, the Savior, God incarnate, need to be baptized in water? Do you think that He was not God prior to John's dunking Him in the river? That is absurd to the max!!!

And stop with the Roman Catholic propaganda! The Didache is not Scripture! Nor are the writings of Hermes!

You end with the illogical statement that "I know you have accepted the teachings of your 500-year-old Protestant men and rejected the teachings of the NT Christians and NOTHING I say will convince you that you are wrong". And this right after you have quoted from non-Scriptural authors!!! LOL!!!
Why do you quote from non-Scriptural authors Jim B???????????

The men who taught you your Protestant propaganda are lying to you Jim. The writings of your Protestant men are not Scripture Jim B. The Didache, which was written by men who lived during the time of the Apostles, carry's more weight than the writings of your Protestant men hwo lived 1,500 years later Jim B. It IS illogical to accept the writings of men that lived 1,500 years after the Apostles and reject the writings of men that lived during the time of the Apostles....THAT is what is illogical and dishonest. How is that koolaide Jim?

To claim the “water” of John 3:5 is amniotic fluid is to stretch the context of Scripture! When we consider the actual words and surrounding context of John 3, the waters of baptism seem to be the more reasonable—and biblical—interpretation. Consider these surrounding texts:

John 1:31-34
: Jesus was baptized. If you compare the parallel passage in St. Matthew’s gospel (3:16), you find that when Jesus was baptized, “the heavens were opened” and the Spirit descended upon him. Obviously, this was not because Jesus needed to be baptized. In fact, St. John the Baptist noted that he needed to be baptized by Jesus (see Matthew 3:14)! Jesus was baptized in order “fulfill all righteousness” and “to give knowledge of salvation to his people in the forgiveness of their sins,” according to Scripture (cf. Matt. 3:15; Luke 1:77). In other words, Jesus demonstrably showed us the way the heavens would be opened to us so that the Holy Spirit would descend upon us… through baptism.

John 2:1-11: Jesus performed his first miracle. He transformed water into wine. Notice, Jesus used water from “six stone jars … for the Jewish rites of purification.” According to the Septuagint as well as the New Testament these purification waters were called baptismoi (see LXX, Numbers 19:9-19; cf. Mark 7:4). We know that Old Testament rites, sacrifices, etc. were only “a shadow of the good things to come” (Hebrews 10:1). They could never take away sins. This may well be why “six” stone jars are specified by St. John—to denote imperfection, or “a human number” (cf. Rev. 13:18). It is interesting to note that Jesus transformed these Old Testament baptismal waters into wine—a symbol of New Covenant perfection (see Joel 3:18; Matthew 9:17).

John 3:22: Immediately after Jesus’ “born again” discourse to Nicodemus, what does He do? “… Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized.” It appears he baptized folks. This is the only time in Scripture we find Jesus apparently actually baptizing.

John 4:1-2: Jesus’ disciples then begin to baptize at Jesus’ command. It appears from the text, Jesus most likely only baptized his disciples and then they baptized everyone else.

In summary, Jesus was baptized, transformed the “baptismal” waters, and then gave his famous “born again” discourse. He then baptized before commissioning the apostles to go out and baptize. To deny Jesus was teaching us about baptism in John 3:3-5 is to ignore the clear biblical context.

Moreover, John 3:5 is not describing two events; it describes one event. The text does not say “unless one is born of water and then born again of the Spirit…” It says “unless one is born of water and Spirit…” If we hearken back to the Lord’s own baptism in John 1 and Matt. 3, we notice when our Lord was baptized the Holy Spirit descended simultaneously upon him. This was one event, involving both water and the Spirit. And so it is with our baptism. If we obey God in being baptized—that’s our part of the deal—we can count on God to concurrently “open the heavens” for us and give us the Holy Spirit.

And finally, it would be anachronistic to read into Jesus’ use of “water” to mean physical birth in John’s gospel. In fact, St. John had just used a word to refer to physical birth in John 1:12-13, but it wasn’t “water:”
 

Marymog

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2017
11,462
1,704
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I don't believe Jesus implied that he was "born again" at his water baptism did he?
Hi Cadyand Zoe,

No, I do not think that Jesus was implying that He was born again when he was baptized. What He was doing was setting the example for us to follow when he was water baptized by John and the Holy Spirit came down upon Him. Right after that he answered Nicodemus's question on how WE are to be born again. His answer was thru water and Spirit. Right after that he and his Apostles went out and baptized.

He first SHOWED us how to be born again and then he TOLD us how to be born again and then he and the Apostles went out and practiced what they preached by performing water baptisms.

I don't believe Jesus needed the Holy Spirit to descend upon him when he was water baptized. Do you?

Mary
 

Marymog

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2017
11,462
1,704
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So then, if Catholics lack an "official" interpretation, then why not include them in the group of denominations which comprise the group of "Churches that differ with each other?" My point is this, what significance can we actually assign to the fact that various interpretations exist? If individual Catholics are allowed to interpret the scriptures, then perhaps there are millions of different interpretations out there. And perhaps they existed all the way from the beginning of time?
Good questions CadyandZoe,

I must reiterate the most important part of my post: There are very few biblical verses that have been strictly defined by The Church that members can not stray from. What that statement means is that there are some verses in the bible that are dogma. Or to put it a different way....they are Undeniable truths! A catholic cannot stray from those truths (dogma) of the teachings of The Church and claim to be catholic.

I hope that clarifies things.

respectfully, mary
 
  • Like
Reactions: CadyandZoe

Marymog

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2017
11,462
1,704
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The dunking under water doesn’t do anything. It’s the spirit that is doing the changing on the soul of the individual.

You can wash your body all day, but it will never be clean like Jesus, when he was the one whom was dunked in which was to fulfill prophecy. Now people are baptized into Jesus death, that is what is effective, when a believer is faithful in believing God did raise Jesus up from the dead.

Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Would you say we would agree?
No Matthew, I don't agree with your limited context interpretation of Scripture in regard to water baptism.

Do you think you should follow the examples of Jesus? If you say NO, then you won't get dunked under water like he did. If you say yes then you will be dunked under water like he was. What happens if we don't follow His example?

Yup, you can wash your body all day long, but it will never clean you like Jesus OR water baptism will. Did you forget about this passage Matthew: The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: