Do you believe Spirit baptism replaces water baptism?

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Illuminator

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Yup. When we are baptized with water, we receive the Holy Spirit. Just like Jesus said in John 3:5.

Here is the chronology of baptism in Scripture:

Jesus was baptized in WATER as a example we are to follow and the Spirit came down upon him.
He then said we are born again thru WATER and Spirit (just like he was).
He and his apostles then went out and baptized with WATER and said 'receive the gift of the Holy Spirit' (Acts 2:38).
After his crucifixion and as he was going into heaven He said baptize all.
The Apostles and Paul continued to baptize all, with water, after they believed in Him.

Here is baptism from NT era Christian Historical writings:

Didache (written BEFORE some NT books):

And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit.

Hermas

“‘I have heard, sir,’ said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’” (The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 [A.D. 80]).

With that said I know you have accepted the teachings of your 500-year-old Protestant men and rejected the teachings of the NT Christians and NOTHING I say will convince you that you are wrong.....so I digress
This is really good stuff, sweetcheeks!
The exact method for administering baptism is not explicit in scripture. One can argue total immersion (which we accept) by inferences, but that is weak and unconvincing. The Didache DOES give the exact method, but it is not inventing it. It is teaching what the Apostles practiced, and practiced by everyone everywhere before the Didache was written. The date is important, it shows it was written in the same time frame when John wrote Revelation. No one questioned it until recently.

The exact method is therefore a Sacred Tradition for biblical baptism, which may explain why non-Catholic Christians are hopelessly divided over a practice and belief that we haven't changed at all for 2000 years.
 
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MatthewG

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Yup. When we are baptized with water, we receive the Holy Spirit. Just like Jesus said in John 3:5.

Here is the chronology of baptism in Scripture:

Jesus was baptized in WATER as a example we are to follow and the Spirit came down upon him.
He then said we are born again thru WATER and Spirit (just like he was).
He and his apostles then went out and baptized with WATER and said 'receive the gift of the Holy Spirit' (Acts 2:38).
After his crucifixion and as he was going into heaven He said baptize all.
The Apostles and Paul continued to baptize all, with water, after they believed in Him.

Here is baptism from NT era Christian Historical writings:

Didache (written BEFORE some NT books):

And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit.

Hermas

“‘I have heard, sir,’ said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’” (The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 [A.D. 80]).

With that said I know you have accepted the teachings of your 500-year-old Protestant men and rejected the teachings of the NT Christians and NOTHING I say will convince you that you are wrong.....so I digress

The dunking under water doesn’t do anything. It’s the spirit that is doing the changing on the soul of the individual.

You can wash your body all day, but it will never be clean like Jesus, when he was the one whom was dunked in which was to fulfill prophecy. Now people are baptized into Jesus death, that is what is effective, when a believer is faithful in believing God did raise Jesus up from the dead.

Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Would you say we would agree?
 

MatthewG

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I would also like to say that John the baptized never said that the Father and the Holy Ghost and the Son would baptize you in Holy Spirit and fire.

He said there was one who is greater than him, whose shoe is not worthy to untie,

Jesus of Nazareth,

Who would baptize them in Holy Spirit and fire.
 

Illuminator

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I would also like to say that John the baptized never said that the Father and the Holy Ghost and the Son would baptize you in Holy Spirit and fire.
John 1:32 – when Jesus was baptized, He was baptized in the water and the Spirit, which descended upon Him in the form of a dove. The Holy Spirit and water are required for baptism. Also, Jesus’ baptism was not the Christian baptism He later instituted. Jesus’ baptism was instead a royal anointing of the Son of David (Jesus) conferred by a Levite (John the Baptist) to reveal Christ to Israel, as it was foreshadowed in 1 Kings 1:39 when the Son of David (Solomon) was anointed by the Levitical priest Zadok. See John 1:31; cf. Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:9; Luke 3:21.
He said there was one who is greater than him, whose shoe is not worthy to untie,

Jesus of Nazareth,

Who would baptize them in Holy Spirit and fire.

John 3:3,5 – Jesus says, “Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” When Jesus said “water and the Spirit,” He was referring to baptism (which requires the use of water, and the work of the Spirit).
 
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Johann

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I see nothing in scripture about a centralized leadership. Paul, Peter, and James wrote letters. They were NOT part of a centralized leadership or organization. Study and mediated on Paul's letter to the Galatians for further reference.

For instance, consider Galatians 1:6-10
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
Here the Apostle declares the basis of authority to be the original gospel message. He boldly asserts that anyone who comes preaching another gospel, including himself, is accursed. (Anathema) You see Mary, the truth itself is the ultimate authority. Followers of Christ are NOT being led by men, including Paul, we are being led by the original gospel. We obey THAT.
Then you have a problem to deal with--as it stands written--

2Th 3:7 For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, for we did not behave inappropriately among you.

2) "How ye ought to follow us" (pos dei mimeisthai hemas) "How it becomes or behooves (you all) to imitate us", in life's behavior pattern, in following Christ daily, Luk_9:23; 1Co_11:1 reads: "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ."
2Th 3:8 And we did not eat anyone’s bread without paying for it, but worked night and day with labor and hardship, so as not to burden any of you.
2Th 3:9 It wasn’t that we had no right, but rather to offer ourselves as an example for you to imitate.


2) "But to make ourselves an ensample" (all ' hina heautous tupon domen) "But in order that we might give ourselves (as) an example", of one feeding the sheep, not merely fleecing the sheep. Paul desired always to show that he loved the sheep, more. than the fleece, as indicated in the above given passages.

3) "Unto you to follow us" (humin eis to mineisthai hemas) “unto you all to imitate us", as we set an example of unselfish love and industry, to win the lost, and help the weak, that "by all means we might win some". This should be the attitude toward which every child of God should unselfishly strive, 1Co_9:22-23; Rom_15:1-3.



2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, we would give you this order: if anyone will not work, neither shall he eat.
2Th 3:11 For we hear that some among you are behaving irresponsibly—not busy, but busybodies.

Heb 13:7 Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith.


1) "Remember them that have the rule over you," (Mnemoneuete ton hegoumenon humon) "Remember the ones (those) continually having the leading over you all," or those leading you all, as guides, by reason of their knowledge and influence. The Hebrew church brethren were exhorted to keep in remembrance, to the church the memory of their former teachings concerning Jesus Christ, and persevere in good works, as Paul motivated the Corinthians to do, 1Co_4:16; 1Co_11:1-2; Luk_9:23; Eph_5:1-2; Php_3:17; 1Th_1:6; 2Th_3:9.

2) "Who have spoken to you the word of God," (oitines elalesan humin ton logon tou theou) "Who spoke to you (taught you all) the word of God;” This does not say "him" that has the rule, but "them," who guide you in acquiring a knowledge of the word; The church, not the pastor or bishop alone, has the commission to teach the word.

To do this new testament churches ordained mature church brethren called elders, "apt to teach" to place over the church teachings, Act_14:23; Act_15:6; Act_15:23; 1Ti_5:17-19; 2Ti_2:2; Tit_1:5.

3) "Whose faith follow," (mimeisthe ten pistin) "You all imitate their faith," follow their system of teaching, of the word; the teachings of mature loyal faithful servants as teachers of God are to be followed faithfully, Heb_6:12; Tit_1:9-11; 2Ti_2:2; Jud_1:1-3.
 

Johann

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You are 100% totally wrong. Nothing got changed: the bible nowhere says nor infers that. And your comment about Paul not being sent to baptize shows your lack of understanding. Read futher in 1 Cor 3:6. Paul planted and Apollos watered. Paul was the orator.
This is wrong--Paul planted--Apollos watered what Paul planted--and it was not water baptism.
 
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CadyandZoe

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Hi Cadyand Zoe,

I presume your question is do individual catholics OR does The Church allow individual Catholics to interpret the Bible. The answer is YES. in general, The Church does not prohibit individual members from interpreting Scripture.

There are very few biblical verses have been strictly defined by The Church that members can not stray from.
So then, if Catholics lack an "official" interpretation, then why not include them in the group of denominations which comprise the group of "Churches that differ with each other?" My point is this, what significance can we actually assign to the fact that various interpretations exist? If individual Catholics are allowed to interpret the scriptures, then perhaps there are millions of different interpretations out there. And perhaps they existed all the way from the beginning of time?
 

CadyandZoe

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Are you joking? John 3:5 says, "Jesus answered, “Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit." A person is born of water (naturally) and born of the Spirit (supernaturally). This has nothing to do with the ritual of water baptism.

Acts 2:38, "Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Baptism means immersion. This does not refer to the ritual of water baptism. Was there some kind of giant tank of water handy to baptize all these people? It's absurd!

What is more absurd is conflating separate, out-of-context selections from Scripture to form a predetermined doctrine. "Jesus was baptized in WATER as a example we are to follow and the Spirit came down upon him.
He then said we are born again thru WATER and Spirit (just like he was). He and his apostles then went out and baptized with WATER and said 'receive the gift of the Holy Spirit'

Why did Jesus, the Savior, God incarnate, need to be baptized in water? Do you think that He was not God prior to John's dunking Him in the river? That is absurd to the max!!!

And stop with the Roman Catholic propaganda! The Didache is not Scripture! Nor are the writings of Hermes!

You end with the illogical statement that "I know you have accepted the teachings of your 500-year-old Protestant men and rejected the teachings of the NT Christians and NOTHING I say will convince you that you are wrong". And this right after you have quoted from non-Scriptural authors!!! LOL!!!
Does this indicate a central locus of authority or a single source of teaching and practice? I maintain that the passages you quoted indicate a single source of truth and God's will, which is God and his son Jesus Christ.
 

Illuminator

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So then, if Catholics lack an "official" interpretation, then why not include them in the group of denominations which comprise the group of "Churches that differ with each other?" My point is this, what significance can we actually assign to the fact that various interpretations exist? If individual Catholics are allowed to interpret the scriptures, then perhaps there are millions of different interpretations out there. And perhaps they existed all the way from the beginning of time?
...nor do Catholics have to interpret every verse of the Bible according to some dogmatic proclamation of the Church. This is another ridiculous (and highly annoying) myth that we hear all the time. Indeed, the orthodox, faithful Catholic must interpret doctrines he derives from Scripture in accordance with the Church and tradition, but so what?

Every Protestant does the same thing within their own denominational tradition. No five-point Calvinist can find a verse in the Bible which proves apostasy or falling away, or one that teaches God’s desire for universal, rather than limited atonement (and there are many such passages). He can’t deny total depravity in any text, or irresistible grace. We all have orthodox and dogmatic boundaries that we abide by. The Catholic exegete is bound by very little, and has virtually as much freedom of inquiry as the Protestant exegete. The online (1910) Catholic Encyclopedia article on “Biblical Exegesis” states:

(a) Defined Texts
The Catholic commentator is bound to adhere to the interpretation of texts which the Church has defined either expressly or implicitly. The number of these texts is small, so that the commentator can easily avoid any transgression of this principle

Scripture Passages Definitively Interpreted by the Church

Many people think the Church has an official “party line” about every sentence in the Bible. In fact, only a handful of passages have been definitively interpreted. The Church does interpret many passages in Scripture to guide her teaching. Other passages are used as the starting point and support of doctrine or moral teaching, but only these few have been “defined” in the strict sense of the word. Even in these few cases the Church is only defending traditional doctrine and morals.

Nor do Catholics have to interpret every verse of the Bible according to some dogmatic proclamation of the Church. This is another ridiculous (and highly annoying) myth that we hear all the time. Indeed, the orthodox, faithful Catholic must interpret doctrines he derives from Scripture in accordance with the Church and tradition, but so what?

Every Protestant does the same thing within their own denominational tradition. No five-point Calvinist can find a verse in the Bible which proves apostasy or falling away, or one that teaches God’s desire for universal, rather than limited atonement (and there are many such passages). He can’t deny total depravity in any text, or irresistible grace. We all have orthodox and dogmatic boundaries that we abide by. The Catholic exegete is bound by very little, and has virtually as much freedom of inquiry as the Protestant exegete. The online (1910) Catholic Encyclopedia article on “Biblical Exegesis” states:

(a) Defined Texts
The Catholic commentator is bound to adhere to the interpretation of texts which the Church has defined either expressly or implicitly. The number of these texts is small, so that the commentator can easily avoid any transgression of this principle.

Catholics are allowed to translate from the Greek, according to the latest textual and archaeological knowledge, to use different translations, and to even cooperate in ecumenical translation projects, such as the RSV and NEB. We can do all the stuff that Protestant biblical exegetes do. And I am allowed to freely interpret almost any text on its own, provided I don’t go against a dogma of the Church (I couldn’t, e.g., say that John 1:1 does not teach the deity and Godhood of Jesus).

Scripture Passages Definitively Interpreted by the Church
Many people think the Church has an official “party line” about every sentence in the Bible. In fact, only a handful of passages have been definitively interpreted. The Church does interpret many passages in Scripture to guide her teaching. Other passages are used as the starting point and support of doctrine or moral teaching, but only these few have been “defined” in the strict sense of the word. Even in these few cases the Church is only defending traditional doctrine and morals.

It is important to realize that the parameters set by the definitions are all negative, that is, they point out what cannot be denied about the meaning of a passage but do not limit how much more the passage can be interpreted to say. In other words, the Church condemns denials of a specific interpretation of the text, without condemning meanings over and above but not contradictory to it.
All of the following passages were definitively interpreted by the Church at the Council of Trent, for each has to do with justification or the sacraments, issues that divided Catholics and Protestants.

1. John 3:5 “Unless a man is born of water and Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.”
The Church condemned the denial that the words of Jesus mean that real (natural) water must be used for a valid baptism. At the time, the Anabaptists contended that water baptism was unnecessary because the mention of water was merely a metaphor. Other symbolic meanings in addition to the literal sense of real water can be found in the text, perhaps, but none are acceptable that deny the need for real water at baptism.

2. Luke 22:19 and
3. I Corinthians 11:24— “Taking the bread, he gave thanks, broke it and gave it to them, saying ‘This is my body given for you: do this in remembrance of me.”
The Church condemned the interpretation of these passages that denied that Jesus, in commanding his apostles to “Do this in memory of me” after instituting the Eucharist, conferred priestly ordination on them and their successors enabling them to offer His body and blood. More could be understood by the command to do this in remembrance, but that much could not be denied or contradicted by other interpretations.
4. John 20:22-23— “Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven; whose sins you do not forgive, they are not forgiven,” and
5. Matthew 18:18— “Whatever things you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
The Church condemned the denial that in these two passages Jesus conferred a power exclusively on the apostles authorizing them and their successors in the priestly office to forgive sins in God’s name, and condemned the proposal that everyone could forgive sins in this sense.

6. Romans 5:12— “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned…”
The Church condemned the denial of original sin to which all mankind is subject and which baptism remits, citing this passage to be understood in that sense.
7. James 6:14— “Is anyone of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord.”
Definitively interpreting these passages, the Church condemned the denial that the sacrament of the anointing of the sick was instituted by Christ and promulgated by the apostles against those who deemed it a human invention of the later Church.
In addition, the decree of Vatican I about Christ establishing Peter as head of the Church — which cites Mt 16:16 and John 1:42 — is a defined doctrine, even though the phrasing about the use and interpretation of the scripture cited is more implicit than explicit, by comparison with the above Scripture passages.
***
 
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Illuminator

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I said it happened in the past. So obviously Catholics of today are not going to kill you today. I had the source link on another Christian forum, but it appears to have been removed and I cannot find it. No doubt this was probably removed due to Catholics trying to re-write history.
I had no problem finding your "source".

It wasn't removed, it died.
There is a sub-link at the bottom of the page. It takes you to this:

Our organization:

  1. We are an independent non-denominational, self-governing local church who earnestly desires to follow our divine savior Jesus Christ.
  2. Although we have no organization larger than the local church with no world headquarters, we have thousands of sister congregations all over the world. Click here to locate an assembly of Christians near you! www.bible.ca Assembly locations of Christians Worldwide!
  3. There is no man or group of men, who legislate doctrine for the church. We have no one to answer to but Christ. He is the head of the church which leaves no room for any human head. We do have a body of men who oversee each local congregation called "elders or bishops or shepherds". These three terms are synonymous and refer to a single office in each local church. Click here for more.
  4. As was true in the first century, so also there is no inter-congregational organization, but rather independent congregations in different locations with Christ as Lord and Master. Our local churches are organized autonomously.
  5. Whereas denominations have a human creed or catechism to enforce unity, our unifying force is that each congregation uses the Bible alone without creeds.
  6. Because the church of the first century had no denominational name, neither do we. However, because the New Testament described the assemblies of Christians as "the church" Ephesians 1:22; "the churches of Christ" Romans 16:16; "the church of God" Acts 20:28 and many other descriptions, the "name on the sign" will always be one found in the Bible.
  7. Below is our local church building. The sign on the front says, "Christians Meet Here" on the side it says, "Doing Bible Things In Bible Ways".
***in other words, no ecclesiology and no accountability for doctrinal fidelity for anybody. Worse, a rejection of the Nicene and Apostles Creed, which amounts to fertilizer for Jack Chick mentality, anti-trinitarians and other Hislopites. There are literally billions of "Bible Christian" hate sites with no qualified pastors attacking Catholicism with garbage.

Daniel B. Wallace

Executive Director of CSNTM & Senior Research Professor of NT Studies at Dallas Theological Seminary has this to say about the Non-Denominationism: (Dallas Theological Seminary is PROTESTANT.)

Several evangelical scholars have noted that the problem with Protestant ecclesiology is that there is no Protestant ecclesiology. In many denominations—and especially in non-denominational churches—
  • there is no hierarchy of churches responsible to a central head,
  • no accountability beyond the local congregation,
  • no fellowship beyond the local assembly,
  • no missional emphasis that gains support from hundreds of congregations, and
  • no superiors to whom a local pastor must submit for doctrinal or ethical fidelity.

A critique of any of the articles as per my signature articles would be nice. Just be sure you post a link to the article, that way I know you are not making stuff up.
 
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Illuminator

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Was Bible Possession Banned by the Catholic Church?
Has the Church and/or the priesthood ever actively discouraged study or reading of the Bible by the laity?

Answer:​

Individual clergy may or may not have done many things throughout history. However, the Church has never actively discouraged the reading or studying of the Bible except in cases of heretical groups and literature.

Up until recently in history, this would not have been much of an issue. The average person couldn’t read, so there was nothing for the Church to discourage, and until the invention of the printing press, copies of the Bible were relatively rare. In those periods the Church did indeed forbid heretical groups from preaching heterodox interpretations of the Bible and the faithful from attending such gatherings. But that is a far cry from banning the faithful from learning about the Bible.

Once the printing press made copies of the Bible more available, the Church did forbid certain versions that contained heretical translations and commentary. Once again, that is far different from the claim that the Church forbade the faithful to read or study the Bible.
The fact that Latin Vulgate version of the Bible was available to Catholics, as were various approved vernacular translations, flies in the face of the accusation that the Church tried to keep the Bible from the faithful. The Catholic Church even produced an English version of the Bible (Douay-Rheims) before the King James Version!
 
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St. SteVen

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The Catholic Church even produced an English version of the Bible (Douay-Rheims) before the King James Version!
Wow.
That's a very interesting point in Bible history. Thanks.

"The Douay-Rheims provides a particularly telling counterexample. It was completed in 1609, making it older than the KJV, which was not published until 1611. The fact that the Rheims New Testament was published in 1582 meant that it appeared almost thirty years before the KJV New Testament." Source
 

CadyandZoe

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...nor do Catholics have to interpret every verse of the Bible according to some dogmatic proclamation of the Church. This is another ridiculous (and highly annoying) myth that we hear all the time. Indeed, the orthodox, faithful Catholic must interpret doctrines he derives from Scripture in accordance with the Church and tradition, but so what?

Every Protestant does the same thing within their own denominational tradition.
I'm unsure what you consider a myth in this case. I asked Mary a simple question. I suppose you were offended by my use of the term dogma, which is a noun. I don't remember using the adjective derivative "dogmatic", which has a negative connotation, denoting blind faith. I was saying just what you said, Catholics interpret the Bible according to Catholic doctrines, which are based on Catholic theology.

Imagine the following scenario. Two pastors sit down for coffee. One pastor is a Baptist minister and the other pastor is a non-denominational minister. The Baptist minister wants to talk about his friend's current course of study. "What book of the Bible has your attention lately?" The non-denominal pastor begins to relate a new way of thinking about a particular passage, one that he misunderstood his entire life. Using convincing reasons and sledgehammer logic, the Baptist minister is able to see that his friend's interpretation is true and correct. So the non-denominational Pastor asks his Baptist friend, "so what do you think?" The Baptist pastor responds, "We'll, it sounds right and I can see nothing wrong with your interpretation." Then the non-denominational pastor asks him, "Well then, do you believe it?" The Baptist minister says, "No. If I believed THAT, I could no longer be a Baptist."

Well, that's a tough decision; It isn't easy to abandon a religion, especially if one has been entrusted with Baptist doctrine. Should the Baptist minister give up his job for the sake of the truth? Job - Truth; Job - Truth; Job - Truth. What to do. Should he believe the truth of the passage and give up being a Baptist minister, or pretend like the passage doesn't exist and remain a Baptist minster?

You're right. Everybody does it. So how to avoid hypocrisy? As I said, Jesus didn't come to start a new religion. We avoid the issue if we avoid membership in a religion. Don't be a Baptist or a Catholic. We hold to our doctrines unless we have good reasons to abandon them, but if we have good reasons, we should feel free to abandon them. Membership = slavery. Individualism = freedom.

Don't join or become a member of any group, whether Protestant or Catholic. The Baptist minister above should side with the scripture over his religion.

I see nothing wrong with employing guides to help one come to the correct interpretation of a passage, whether those guides are in the form of a lexicon or a tradition. The central issue is whether or not one adopts the correct orientation with respect to those guides. A man who stands before the judgment seat of Christ will stand alone, without his guides. That man should not think that he can blame his guides for believing a false doctrine or practicing a false religion whatever it is. (I mean this in a general way.)

Faith and belief are personal, individual, and existential (issues concerning my existence) as each one of us shall stand alone at the judgment seat of Christ. The only significant issue at that time will be whether or not I put my trust in the one person who is able to offer me eternal existence and ionic life (life as it will be during that final age.) Today, at this time, the central question is, "who is the real Jesus Christ?"

Your challenge is to perform a little bit of self-reflection in search of an honest assessment of your standpoint with regard to Catholic Teaching. Would you walk away from Catholicism if it was a choice between a correct interpretation of the passage or being a member of the Catholic Church? Or do you always say, "I can't believe THAT because if I did, I wouldn't be a Catholic"? Is being a Catholic the most important thing?

Edit: Edited to add that I do the same thing myself. I wouldn't expect you to do anything that I am not already doing.
 
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CadyandZoe

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Jesus was baptized in WATER as a example we are to follow and the Spirit came down upon him.
I agree that we should follow Jesus' example, but is THAT the reason why Jesus asked John to baptize him? Doesn't Jesus give John permission to baptize him "for the sake of righteousness?"

And what was the significance of the presence of the Spirit?

Did John the Baptist say, "And I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’ And I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God.”? It would appear, from this account, that God gave John a way to recognized Jesus to be the son of God.

Jesus allowed John to baptize him so that God might provide the signal event, proving to John that Jesus was the one. In this way, we understand that the presence of the Holy Spirit is indicative of "sanctification" i.e. God was sanctifying Jesus for his role to be the savior of the earth.

We see this also in the House of Cornelius when God sent the Holy Spirit upon the members of Cornelius' house. These folks received the sign of tongues in order to prove to Peter that God was sanctifying Gentiles as well as Jews to be in service to his son. It was only AFTER the sign of tongues that Peter baptized the household of Cornelius. Water is not a prerequisite to the Spirit.


He then said we are born again thru WATER and Spirit (just like he was).
I don't believe Jesus implied that he was "born again" at his water baptism did he?
He and his apostles then went out and baptized with WATER and said 'receive the gift of the Holy Spirit' (Acts 2:38).
Yes, but what was the actual exhortation? I think you will find that Peter was ACTUALLY asking the crowds to become disciples of Jesus Christ.
 

St. SteVen

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Why hadn't the baptized believers in Samaria received the Holy Spirit?

 

Illuminator

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I'm unsure what you consider a myth in this case. I asked Mary a simple question. I suppose you were offended by my use of the term dogma, which is a noun. I don't remember using the adjective derivative "dogmatic", which has a negative connotation, denoting blind faith. I was saying just what you said, Catholics interpret the Bible according to Catholic doctrines, which are based on Catholic theology.

Imagine the following scenario. Two pastors sit down for coffee. One pastor is a Baptist minister and the other pastor is a non-denominational minister. The Baptist minister wants to talk about his friend's current course of study. "What book of the Bible has your attention lately?" The non-denominal pastor begins to relate a new way of thinking about a particular passage, one that he misunderstood his entire life. Using convincing reasons and sledgehammer logic, the Baptist minister is able to see that his friend's interpretation is true and correct. So the non-denominational Pastor asks his Baptist friend, "so what do you think?" The Baptist pastor responds, "We'll, it sounds right and I can see nothing wrong with your interpretation." Then the non-denominational pastor asks him, "Well then, do you believe it?" The Baptist minister says, "No. If I believed THAT, I could no longer be a Baptist."

Well, that's a tough decision; It isn't easy to abandon a religion, especially if one has been entrusted with Baptist doctrine. Should the Baptist minister give up his job for the sake of the truth? Job - Truth; Job - Truth; Job - Truth. What to do. Should he believe the truth of the passage and give up being a Baptist minister, or pretend like the passage doesn't exist and remain a Baptist minster?

You're right. Everybody does it. So how to avoid hypocrisy? As I said, Jesus didn't come to start a new religion. We avoid the issue if we avoid membership in a religion. Don't be a Baptist or a Catholic. We hold to our doctrines unless we have good reasons to abandon them, but if we have good reasons, we should feel free to abandon them. Membership = slavery. Individualism = freedom.

Don't join or become a member of any group, whether Protestant or Catholic. The Baptist minister above should side with the scripture over his religion.

I see nothing wrong with employing guides to help one come to the correct interpretation of a passage, whether those guides are in the form of a lexicon or a tradition. The central issue is whether or not one adopts the correct orientation with respect to those guides. A man who stands before the judgment seat of Christ will stand alone, without his guides. That man should not think that he can blame his guides for believing a false doctrine or practicing a false religion whatever it is. (I mean this in a general way.)

Faith and belief are personal, individual, and existential (issues concerning my existence) as each one of us shall stand alone at the judgment seat of Christ. The only significant issue at that time will be whether or not I put my trust in the one person who is able to offer me eternal existence and ionic life (life as it will be during that final age.) Today, at this time, the central question is, "who is the real Jesus Christ?"

Your challenge is to perform a little bit of self-reflection in search of an honest assessment of your standpoint with regard to Catholic Teaching. Would you walk away from Catholicism if it was a choice between a correct interpretation of the passage or being a member of the Catholic Church? Or do you always say, "I can't believe THAT because if I did, I wouldn't be a Catholic"? Is being a Catholic the most important thing?

Edit: Edited to add that I do the same thing myself. I wouldn't expect you to do anything that I am not already doing.
A Baptist who converts to Catholicism does not have their faith supplanted or replaced, but everything that is true in Baptist theology is embellished. Notice in the testimonies converts don't bash their former faith.
 
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CadyandZoe

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I had no problem finding your "source".

It wasn't removed, it died.
There is a sub-link at the bottom of the page. It takes you to this:

Our organization:

  1. We are an independent non-denominational, self-governing local church who earnestly desires to follow our divine savior Jesus Christ.
  2. Although we have no organization larger than the local church with no world headquarters, we have thousands of sister congregations all over the world. Click here to locate an assembly of Christians near you! www.bible.ca Assembly locations of Christians Worldwide!
  3. There is no man or group of men, who legislate doctrine for the church. We have no one to answer to but Christ. He is the head of the church which leaves no room for any human head. We do have a body of men who oversee each local congregation called "elders or bishops or shepherds". These three terms are synonymous and refer to a single office in each local church. Click here for more.
  4. As was true in the first century, so also there is no inter-congregational organization, but rather independent congregations in different locations with Christ as Lord and Master. Our local churches are organized autonomously.
  5. Whereas denominations have a human creed or catechism to enforce unity, our unifying force is that each congregation uses the Bible alone without creeds.
  6. Because the church of the first century had no denominational name, neither do we. However, because the New Testament described the assemblies of Christians as "the church" Ephesians 1:22; "the churches of Christ" Romans 16:16; "the church of God" Acts 20:28 and many other descriptions, the "name on the sign" will always be one found in the Bible.
  7. Below is our local church building. The sign on the front says, "Christians Meet Here" on the side it says, "Doing Bible Things In Bible Ways".
***in other words, no ecclesiology and no accountability for doctrinal fidelity for anybody. Worse, a rejection of the Nicene and Apostles Creed, which amounts to fertilizer for Jack Chick mentality, anti-trinitarians and other Hislopites. There are literally billions of "Bible Christian" hate sites with no qualified pastors attacking Catholicism with garbage.

Daniel B. Wallace

Executive Director of CSNTM & Senior Research Professor of NT Studies at Dallas Theological Seminary has this to say about the Non-Denominationism: (Dallas Theological Seminary is PROTESTANT.)

Several evangelical scholars have noted that the problem with Protestant ecclesiology is that there is no Protestant ecclesiology. In many denominations—and especially in non-denominational churches—
  • there is no hierarchy of churches responsible to a central head,
  • no accountability beyond the local congregation,
  • no fellowship beyond the local assembly,
  • no missional emphasis that gains support from hundreds of congregations, and
  • no superiors to whom a local pastor must submit for doctrinal or ethical fidelity.

A critique of any of the articles as per my signature articles would be nice. Just be sure you post a link to the article, that way I know you are not making stuff up.
Where Mr. Wallace sees a "problem" I see a solution.

  • there is no hierarchy of churches responsible to a central head,
I find no Biblical justification for a hierarchy of churches, which is to be expected. There is NO requirement to become a member of a church or a member of denomination. Obedience requires that we become disciples of Jesus Christ and live according to his teaching. Sunday worship and Sunday attendance is NOT a requirement for fellowship with the saints. The basis of our fellowship is our common journey as we walk in the Lord. A hierarchy of Churches or any sort of religious hierarchy is antichrist.

  • no accountability beyond the local congregation,
Jesus Christ is so much above any earthly authority that I can't believe a genuine believer would suggest that the local congregation has no accountability higher than itself.
  • no fellowship beyond the local assembly,
Jesus told his disciples "they shall know you by your love." The basis of our fellowship is our common journey in the walk of faith. An authentic Christian has fellowship with any other authentic Christian anywhere in the world and at any time in history based on a common walk with Jesus and a commitment to his teaching.
  • no missional emphasis that gains support from hundreds of congregations, and
The Holy Spirit sends individuals to bring the good news and the Holy Spirit supplies support. The idea that the church of Jesus Christ needs the support of hundreds of congregations is antichrist.
  • no superiors to whom a local pastor must submit for doctrinal or ethical fidelity.
Jesus Christ is the local pastor's superior.

Mr. Wallace's outline defines the parameters needed to build an empire: fiscal responsibility; source of income; and a centralized power structure. He unwittingly, I suppose, seeks to transform the body of Christ into the leviathan. His outline provides all the working parts of a monster machine, which seeks only to devour all that it sees.
 

Illuminator

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I didn't miss the point. By what authority do you claim the non-denominalite to be more true than the Baptist's supposed errors? All the Baptist pastoral hospital chaplains I've met (I met a lot of them working in hospitals) have, or are working on, their Masters in Divinity degree (AKA "M-vid". They have formal pastoral care training in Christian psychology and counselling. Patients make a request to the nurse who contacts the pastoral care department for a visit. Every hospital has one.

Non-denominationists have no way of knowing who would be the most qualified to lead/participate in hospital ministry. Patients have to trust Sister Goodie2shoes to minister to their complex needs. Non-denominationists can visit as friends, but not as chaplain-to-patient. Hospitals can't allow fake chaplains; it's illegal, not to mention dangerous.

On the other hand,
I'm unsure what you consider a myth in this case. I asked Mary a simple question. I suppose you were offended by my use of the term dogma, which is a noun. I don't remember using the adjective derivative "dogmatic", which has a negative connotation, denoting blind faith. I was saying just what you said, Catholics interpret the Bible according to Catholic doctrines, which are based on Catholic theology.
Yes, but so does everybody else base their interpretation on some sort of ecclesial structure, except non-denominationists, who have no ecclesiology. They oppose any kind of authoritive leadership or structured theology. It's relativism to the extreme, and the purest form of reformism they claim they don't follow. :contemplate:
Imagine the following scenario. Two pastors sit down for coffee. One pastor is a Baptist minister and the other pastor is a non-denominational minister. The Baptist minister wants to talk about his friend's current course of study. "What book of the Bible has your attention lately?" The non-denominal pastor begins to relate a new way of thinking about a particular passage, one that he misunderstood his entire life. Using convincing reasons and sledgehammer logic, the Baptist minister is able to see that his friend's interpretation is true and correct. So the non-denominational Pastor asks his Baptist friend, "so what do you think?" The Baptist pastor responds, "We'll, it sounds right and I can see nothing wrong with your interpretation." Then the non-denominational pastor asks him, "Well then, do you believe it?" The Baptist minister says, "No. If I believed THAT, I could no longer be a Baptist."
Using convincing reasons and sledgehammer logic, non-denominationists uphold the Principle of Private Judgement, where each individual is entitled to re-construct the meaning of scripture for himself, or start a new "fellowship".
Well, that's a tough decision; It isn't easy to abandon a religion, especially if one has been entrusted with Baptist doctrine. Should the Baptist minister give up his job for the sake of the truth? Job - Truth; Job - Truth; Job - Truth. What to do. Should he believe the truth of the passage and give up being a Baptist minister, or pretend like the passage doesn't exist and remain a Baptist minster?
Your premises is flawed. You are determining to know automatically the non-denominationist is qualified to teach someone who studied a good part of their life, including some degree of spiritual maturity. "Me-the-Bible-and-the-Holy-Spirit" mentality is for spiritual infants and endless division..
You're right. Everybody does it. So how to avoid hypocrisy? As I said, Jesus didn't come to start a new religion. We avoid the issue if we avoid membership in a religion. Don't be a Baptist or a Catholic. We hold to our doctrines unless we have good reasons to abandon them, but if we have good reasons, we should feel free to abandon them. Membership = slavery. Individualism = freedom.
Individualism
The tendency to magnify individual liberty, as against external authority, and individual activity, as against associated activity.

Under external authority are included not merely political and religious governments, but voluntary associations, and such forms of restraint as are found in general standards of conduct and belief. Thus,
  • the laborer who refuses on theoretical grounds to become a member of a trade union;
  • the reformer who rejects social and political methods, and relies upon measures to be adopted by each individual acting independently;
  • the writer who discards some of the recognized canons of his art;
  • the man who regards the pronouncements of his conscience as the only standard of right and wrong;
  • and the freethinker—
are all as truly individualists as the the non-denominationists or the philosophical anarchist. Through all forms of individualism runs the note of emphasis upon the importance of self in opposition to either restraint or assistance from without. Individualism is scarcely a principle, for it exhibits too many degrees, and it is too general to be called a theory or a doctrine. Perhaps it is better described as a tendency or an attitude.
Don't join or become a member of any group, whether Protestant or Catholic. The Baptist minister above should side with the scripture over his religion.
That's what they all say.
I see nothing wrong with employing guides to help one come to the correct interpretation of a passage, whether those guides are in the form of a lexicon or a tradition. The central issue is whether or not one adopts the correct orientation with respect to those guides. A man who stands before the judgment seat of Christ will stand alone, without his guides. That man should not think that he can blame his guides for believing a false doctrine or practicing a false religion whatever it is. (I mean this in a general way.)
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Faith and belief are personal, individual, and existential (issues concerning my existence) as each one of us shall stand alone at the judgment seat of Christ. The only significant issue at that time will be whether or not I put my trust in the one person who is able to offer me eternal existence and ionic life (life as it will be during that final age.) Today, at this time, the central question is, "who is the real Jesus Christ?"

Your challenge is to perform a little bit of self-reflection in search of an honest assessment of your standpoint with regard to Catholic Teaching.
Catholic Teaching??? MOST of what you have read about the CC is false, and everything that is true in your beliefs is found in the CC. That's my standpoint. My challenge to you is found in my signature. Be sure to post a link to the page, if you have the courage to use it. That way I know you are not making stuff up about "Catholic Teaching".
Would you walk away from Catholicism if it was a choice between a correct interpretation of the passage or being a member of the Catholic Church? Or do you always say, "I can't believe THAT because if I did, I wouldn't be a Catholic"? Is being a Catholic the most important thing?
I just receive the divine message from qualified, annointed teachers that they received that they recieved traced back to the Apostles with truckloads of consistency and documented evidence. You are stuck starting over with each individual.
Edit: Edited to add that I do the same thing myself. I wouldn't expect you to do anything that I am not already doing.
I try to find common ground which is hard to do with thousands of individual theologies going around.
I wouldn't expect you to do anything that I am not already doing.