Do You Believe That We Are In A Covenant Relationship With God

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Rocky Wiley

Active Member
Aug 28, 2012
929
156
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Southeast USA
We are indeed and the following article is offered for your information and study.

What in the world is "Covenant Creation” ?

By Francis Gregory Febus

The expression "Covenant Creation" is a comprehensive assessment of
the entire Biblical narrative realized in terms of its prophetic value as
commenced in Genesis 1. Not all Biblical text is written in what we would
term a primary expression of prophecy but the balance of what many
designate as the historical narrative essentially functions as a natural
progression of the prophecy that precedes it.
All events in the Bible "fit in" to the general prophetic pattern that they
are placed in. These events are portrayed in specific historic terms, as say,
the prophecies concerning the first destruction of Jerusalem. Other
prophecies of much broader content function as a type of chronological
conductor who orchestrates the Biblical narrative into harmoniously
recognizable themes. An example of this is the Feasts of the Lord with its
agricultural types and its kingdom fulfillments. Another would be the
seventy weeks of Daniel portraying 490 years of Jewish history
culminating in the consummation of the Christian age. Covenant Creation
recognizes that the first chapters of Genesis function in much the same
way as the aforementioned…they function as the mother lode of prophecy
by initiating all Biblical patterns that follow.

When we attempt to consider the prophetic implications of the first
few chapters of Genesis as opposed to the universal implications of a
natural creation, the opposition is staggering. The oral tradition of
universal creation is so deeply imbedded in the consciousness of Bible
students that even simple reconsideration of the subject is labeled
anathema. One would think that the difficulties in presenting the classical
creation motif would oblige us to inquire into an alternate view of Genesis
1.
The current propagation of historic creation has posed an array of
problems that are very difficult to properly address. The apparent fallacies
inherent within that presentation persist to haunt all who hold fast to a literal seven day universal creation. These fallacies have been
vigorously defended by most of the fundamentalist movement to their own
detriment. All who support such views must resort to extra-biblical
resources in order to defend such positions. (One such popular resource,
located in San Diego, California, is the Institution for Creation Research
which has been a leading center for the promotion of creation science).
The preoccupation with such an approach is problematic because it posits
the wrong arguments: The Bible does not dispute either the age of the
earth or the exact date of the dawn of man, yet most fundamental
Christians feel compelled to introduce a study of science along with
scripture to substantiate their positions. Regardless, the Bible has never
made such associations. By analyzing the word of God through a scientific
lens Christians have utilized the wrong measuring stick, evaluating a text
that is not inherently scientific in nature. Thus, the wrong questions are
raised and an eternal resistance persists in defense of both the young age
of the earth and the pious demonization of the impossible theory of
evolution.
Did it ever occur to anyone that perhaps the answers that we are
seeking may lay embedded within the text? The measure of the word of
God cannot be found within the realm of science or the humanities; it is
found within its pages. If indeed the text were of a scientific nature then a
scientific appraisal would be in order. In short, we have been climbing the
wrong tree in endeavoring to decipher the treasures of early Genesis. In
the study of Covenant Creation, we only need to utilize the tools of God's
word to reveal its content. We totally concur with the following scripture
as it admonishes us to confine our inquiry of all biblical concerns to its
pages….
2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking,
correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may
be thoroughly equipped for every good work. NIV
By using this method of investigation we are forced to dissociate
ourselves from the analytical methods of modern western analysis. One
must revisit the original intent of the Hebraic expressions within the
context of its language and its cultural underpinnings. For example,
(Hebraic) parallelism is a very important teaching device by which the
ancient Hebrew language tells its story as it declares and reemphasizes the
themes it wishes to portray. When this literary style is used the text
explicitly frames the issue at hand. Thus, the repetitive structure of
Hebrew parallelism directs the flow of information to formulate a
distinctive pattern in communicating its message. The following passage is
an excellent example of Hebrew parallelism. The subject apparently
identifies God as Lord, King, Redeemer, Lord of hosts, first, last, and that
there is no other God. A western reading of this passage would separate
King of Israel and redeemer as two distinct entities.
Isa 44:6
6 Thus saith the Lord
the King of Israel
and his redeemer
the Lord of hosts;
I am the first, and
I am the last; and
beside me there is no God. KJV
Jeremiah 4:22-23 illustrates the repetition of another theme: the
backslidden condition of Israel. The structure of the passage inadvertently
identifies the heaven and earth as his people. It also illustrates their plight
as a pre-covenantal state depicted in Genesis 1:2….
Jer 4:22-23
22 For my people is foolish,
they have not known me; they are sottish (stupid) children,
and they have none understanding:
they are wise to do evil, but to do good
they have no knowledge.
23 I beheld the earth,
and, lo, it was without (in confusion) form,
and void; and
the heavens, and
they had no light. KJV
people = the earth
foolish = confusion
not known me = void, none understanding, no knowledge, no light
God's people = heaven and earth
No knowledge =no light

If we are to understand the ancient writ it is important that we be
aware this pattern of repetition. Unlike western writing which is linear and
descriptive, the ancient Hebrew text is constructed in a circular fashion
(repetitive) as it is more concrete and functional in nature. For example,
the word "bara"(create) actually means to fatten; to enrich. The concept of
making something out of nothing did not exist in the minds of the ancient
Hebrews. In fact, the word "bara" is never used in such fashion in holy
writ. The biblical text never infers such a notion.
Isaiah 45:4 has caused many to scratch their heads when they try to
consider its content. The question is: Does God create evil? No, the Lord
rehabilitates evil and makes peace. Darkness is enriched or fattened. Let’s
look at the passage in Hebrew parallelism….
Isa 45:4
7 I form the light, and create darkness
I make peace, and
create evil:
I the Lord do all these things.
The next passage clearly illustrates the point we have been making.
David asks God for a clean heart. The issue here is that David was in sore
need of rehabilitation and not a new organ to pump his blood. Note the
word renew; it reemphasizes and supports the primary expression "create
in me..."
Ps 51:10
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God;
and renew a right spirit within me KJV
The Greek language does not utilize the Hebraic form as it is illustrated
above but the meaning of the word “create” agrees with the Hebraic in its
usage in the following passages….
Eph 2:10
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good
works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. KJV
Eph 4:22-24
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which
is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in
righteousness and true holiness. KJV Why is it called Covenant Creation?

The scriptures we just cited from the New Testament utilize the
concept of creation in the terms of the new covenant. Why is it so hard for
us to recognize the same alliance of concepts that we see in Genesis 1? If
one desires to assess the overall intent of the Biblical narrative, we must
first realize that it commences and continues with a relationship between
God and man based upon covenant. We should ask ourselves: Why did the
prophets, apostles, and Jesus Christ frequently utilize Genesis 1 imagery to
identify God's people in their prophetic texts? The representation of such
evidence is so well documented that a casual selection of any portion of
scripture supports our claim.
Another important question we should ask is what value does a
cosmic (literal) creation have with the remainder of what appears to be a
covenantal narrative? Many might say that prophetic expressions are
taken from the natural and expressed in the spiritual. While we agree that
the natural things in our world have been used in order to express
prophetic events— indeed, this is the correctly viewed metaphorical nature
of much prophetic language— such a terse, glib formula still does not
suggest a literal creation. I Corinthians 15:45-47 is a shallow rebuff some
might adopt in order to muddy the waters; however, 1Corinthians 15:45-
47 was not implying that all scripture in Genesis was natural to be fulfilled
later on in history. Regardless, this false paradigm is how folks have
attempted to dismiss the study of covenant creation. The point of that
scripture was to contrast the nature of Adam (natural) and the nature of
Jesus (spiritual). Painting with a broad brush usually indicates a
prejudicial mindset that lacks a good argument to back its claim.
In actuality, early Genesis was spiritual (prophetic) in nature and
used the real world to frame its narrative. Jesus did this very effectively
with the parabolic form he used.
1 Cor 15:45-4745 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the
last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural;
and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from
heaven. KJV
The more that one digs into the fabric of Genesis 1 the more one will
discover its proper function in the Biblical account as it unfolds.
As a cosmically interpreted event it exists by itself almost as in a vacuum;
however, as a prophetic text it serves as a foundation for the balance of
holy writ.
This short article was designed only to whet your appetite for the study
of Covenant Creation. We hope that a seed has been planted and that you
will continue to open your heart and mind to the fascinating study of
Covenant Creation.

For more free articles by Brother Febus go to:

http://www.fulfilledprophecy.net/
 

shturt678

New Member
Feb 9, 2013
970
23
0
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South Point, Hawaii (Big Island)
Rocky Wiley said:
We are indeed and the following article is offered for your information and study.

What in the world is "Covenant Creation” ?

By Francis Gregory Febus

<snip> only for clarity.


For more free articles by Brother Febus go to:
http://www.fulfilledprophecy.net/

Thank you for caring!

Letting go the many discrepancies for now regarding the former, eg, "70 weeks" Dan.9:24 (actually covers the time of Daniel till the end of time), moving forward to a valid interpretive approach in interpreting extremely interpretive Bible translation's Text "Bibles."

Especially during today's end time's full blown apostasy, all must approach any Bible interpretation going from the ancient languages forward to the English and not backwards as pervasively done today.

Old context rules Jack
 

Rocky Wiley

Active Member
Aug 28, 2012
929
156
43
83
Southeast USA
shturt678 said:
We are indeed and the following article is offered for your information and study.

What in the world is "Covenant Creation” ?

By Francis Gregory Febus

shturt,

Covenant Creation is about the creation of the covenant between God and man. Not about the creation of the universe. The article in this OP is a brief understanding of how the Hebrew language is used, and describes this creation.

One can not deny that the universe is far older than than 7000 years. The fact that Christians say it is only 7000 years old is the lack of understanding that the whole bible is about the Covenant between God and man. It also makes us look ignorant in trying to say something else.

Read the article again, and mark what Bro Febus is saying.

FYI
 

Retrobyter

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2011
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Tampa Bay, Florida
Faith
Christian
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United States
Shabbat shalom, Rocky Wiley

Rocky Wiley said:
We are indeed and the following article is offered for your information and study.

What in the world is "Covenant Creation” ?

By Francis Gregory Febus

The expression "Covenant Creation" is a comprehensive assessment of
the entire Biblical narrative realized in terms of its prophetic value as
commenced in Genesis 1. Not all Biblical text is written in what we would
term a primary expression of prophecy but the balance of what many
designate as the historical narrative essentially functions as a natural
progression of the prophecy that precedes it.
All events in the Bible "fit in" to the general prophetic pattern that they
are placed in. These events are portrayed in specific historic terms, as say,
the prophecies concerning the first destruction of Jerusalem. Other
prophecies of much broader content function as a type of chronological
conductor who orchestrates the Biblical narrative into harmoniously
recognizable themes. An example of this is the Feasts of the Lord with its
agricultural types and its kingdom fulfillments. Another would be the
seventy weeks of Daniel portraying 490 years of Jewish history
culminating in the consummation of the Christian age. Covenant Creation
recognizes that the first chapters of Genesis function in much the same
way as the aforementioned…they function as the mother lode of prophecy
by initiating all Biblical patterns that follow.

When we attempt to consider the prophetic implications of the first
few chapters of Genesis as opposed to the universal implications of a
natural creation, the opposition is staggering. The oral tradition of
universal creation is so deeply imbedded in the consciousness of Bible
students that even simple reconsideration of the subject is labeled
anathema. One would think that the difficulties in presenting the classical
creation motif would oblige us to inquire into an alternate view of Genesis
1.

The current propagation of historic creation has posed an array of
problems that are very difficult to properly address. The apparent fallacies
inherent within that presentation persist to haunt all who hold fast to a
literal seven day universal creation. These fallacies have been
vigorously defended by most of the fundamentalist movement to their own
detriment. All who support such views must resort to extra-biblical
resources in order to defend such positions. (One such popular resource,
located in San Diego, California, is the Institution for Creation Research
which has been a leading center for the promotion of creation science).
The preoccupation with such an approach is problematic because it posits
the wrong arguments: The Bible does not dispute either the age of the
earth or the exact date of the dawn of man, yet most fundamental
Christians feel compelled to introduce a study of science along with
scripture to substantiate their positions. Regardless, the Bible has never
made such associations. By analyzing the word of God through a scientific
lens Christians have utilized the wrong measuring stick, evaluating a text
that is not inherently scientific in nature. Thus, the wrong questions are
raised and an eternal resistance persists in defense of both the young age
of the earth and the pious demonization of the impossible theory of
evolution.

Did it ever occur to anyone that perhaps the answers that we are
seeking may lay embedded within the text? The measure of the word of
God cannot be found within the realm of science or the humanities; it is
found within its pages. If indeed the text were of a scientific nature then a
scientific appraisal would be in order. In short, we have been climbing the
wrong tree in endeavoring to decipher the treasures of early Genesis. In
the study of Covenant Creation, we only need to utilize the tools of God's
word to reveal its content. We totally concur with the following scripture
as it admonishes us to confine our inquiry of all biblical concerns to its
pages….


2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking,
correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may
be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
NIV

By using this method of investigation we are forced to dissociate
ourselves from the analytical methods of modern western analysis. One
must revisit the original intent of the Hebraic expressions within the
context of its language and its cultural underpinnings. For example,
(Hebraic) parallelism is a very important teaching device by which the
ancient Hebrew language tells its story as it declares and reemphasizes the
themes it wishes to portray. When this literary style is used the text
explicitly frames the issue at hand. Thus, the repetitive structure of
Hebrew parallelism directs the flow of information to formulate a
distinctive pattern in communicating its message. The following passage is
an excellent example of Hebrew parallelism. The subject apparently
identifies God as Lord, King, Redeemer, Lord of hosts, first, last, and that
there is no other God. A western reading of this passage would separate
King of Israel and redeemer as two distinct entities.

Isa 44:6
6 Thus saith the Lord
the King of Israel
and his redeemer
the Lord of hosts;
I am the first, and
I am the last; and
beside me there is no God.
KJV

Jeremiah 4:22-23 illustrates the repetition of another theme: the
backslidden condition of Israel. The structure of the passage inadvertently
identifies the heaven and earth as his people. It also illustrates their plight
as a pre-covenantal state depicted in Genesis 1:2….

Jer 4:22-23
22 For my people is foolish,
they have not known me; they are sottish (stupid) children,
and they have none understanding:
they are wise to do evil, but to do good
they have no knowledge.
23 I beheld the earth,
and, lo, it was without (in confusion) form,
and void; and
the heavens, and
they had no light.
KJV

people = the earth
foolish = confusion
not known me = void, none understanding, no knowledge, no light
God's people = heaven and earth
No knowledge =no light

If we are to understand the ancient writ it is important that we be
aware this pattern of repetition. Unlike western writing which is linear and
descriptive, the ancient Hebrew text is constructed in a circular fashion
(repetitive) as it is more concrete and functional in nature. For example,
the word "bara"(create) actually means to fatten; to enrich. The concept of
making something out of nothing did not exist in the minds of the ancient
Hebrews. In fact, the word "bara" is never used in such fashion in holy
writ. The biblical text never infers such a notion.
Isaiah 45:4 has caused many to scratch their heads when they try to
consider its content. The question is: Does God create evil? No, the Lord
rehabilitates evil and makes peace. Darkness is enriched or fattened. Let’s
look at the passage in Hebrew parallelism….

Isa 45:4
4 I form the light, and create darkness
I make peace, and
create evil:
I the Lord do all these things.

The next passage clearly illustrates the point we have been making.
David asks God for a clean heart. The issue here is that David was in sore
need of rehabilitation and not a new organ to pump his blood. Note the
word renew; it reemphasizes and supports the primary expression "create
in me..."

Ps 51:10
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God;
and renew a right spirit within me
KJV

The Greek language does not utilize the Hebraic form as it is illustrated
above but the meaning of the word “create” agrees with the Hebraic in its
usage in the following passages….

Eph 2:10
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good
works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
KJV

Eph 4:22-24
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which
is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in
righteousness and true holiness.
KJV

Why is it called Covenant Creation?

The scriptures we just cited from the New Testament utilize the
concept of creation in the terms of the new covenant. Why is it so hard for
us to recognize the same alliance of concepts that we see in Genesis 1? If
one desires to assess the overall intent of the Biblical narrative, we must
first realize that it commences and continues with a relationship between
God and man based upon covenant. We should ask ourselves: Why did the
prophets, apostles, and Jesus Christ frequently utilize Genesis 1 imagery to
identify God's people in their prophetic texts? The representation of such
evidence is so well documented that a casual selection of any portion of
scripture supports our claim.
Another important question we should ask is what value does a
cosmic (literal) creation have with the remainder of what appears to be a
covenantal narrative? Many might say that prophetic expressions are
taken from the natural and expressed in the spiritual. While we agree that
the natural things in our world have been used in order to express
prophetic events— indeed, this is the correctly viewed metaphorical nature
of much prophetic language— such a terse, glib formula still does not
suggest a literal creation. I Corinthians 15:45-47 is a shallow rebuff some
might adopt in order to muddy the waters; however, 1Corinthians 15:45-
47 was not implying that all scripture in Genesis was natural to be fulfilled
later on in history. Regardless, this false paradigm is how folks have
attempted to dismiss the study of covenant creation. The point of that
scripture was to contrast the nature of Adam (natural) and the nature of
Jesus (spiritual). Painting with a broad brush usually indicates a
prejudicial mindset that lacks a good argument to back its claim.
In actuality, early Genesis was spiritual (prophetic) in nature and
used the real world to frame its narrative. Jesus did this very effectively
with the parabolic form he used.

1 Cor 15:45-47
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the
last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural;
and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from
heaven.
KJV

The more that one digs into the fabric of Genesis 1 the more one will
discover its proper function in the Biblical account as it unfolds.
As a cosmically interpreted event it exists by itself almost as in a vacuum;
however, as a prophetic text it serves as a foundation for the balance of
holy writ.
This short article was designed only to whet your appetite for the study
of Covenant Creation. We hope that a seed has been planted and that you
will continue to open your heart and mind to the fascinating study of
Covenant Creation.

For more free articles by Brother Febus go to:

http://www.fulfilledprophecy.net/
Rocky Wiley said:
We are indeed and the following article is offered for your information and study.

What in the world is "Covenant Creation” ?

By Francis Gregory Febus

shturt,

Covenant Creation is about the creation of the covenant between God and man. Not about the creation of the universe. The article in this OP is a brief understanding of how the Hebrew language is used, and describes this creation.

One can not deny that the universe is far older than than 7000 years. The fact that Christians say it is only 7000 years old is the lack of understanding that the whole bible is about the Covenant between God and man. It also makes us look ignorant in trying to say something else.

Read the article again, and mark what Bro Febus is saying.

FYI



Nonsense. One should LEARN Hebrew before you make JUDGMENTS about the Hebrew of the Bible! Brother Febus makes assumptions that one should not make.

For instance, to say "the seventy weeks of Daniel portraying 490 years of Jewish history culminating in the consummation of the Christian age" is an ASSUMPTION about the way that the seventy sevens are to be considered "fulfilled." One tends to forget the PURPOSES of the seventy sevens in such an assumption and it is a subjective VALUE JUDGMENT on the interpretation of this prophecy.

Secondly, consider Jeremiah 4:23. It is an UNSUPPORTED ASSUMPTION to suggest that its similarity to Genesis 1:2 IN ENGLISH implies that this verse in Jeremiah's prophecy is about the Creation week! CONTEXT IS CRUCIAL to a good understanding of biblical interpretation of a particular verse or passage. One should ALWAYS use the context of a passage to determine the validity of one's assumptions about the passage!

Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah) was a prophet sent to Y'hudah (Judah) during the latter times of the kings just prior to the Captivity to Bavel (Babylon). He personally witnessed the destruction and devastation caused by the Babylonian armies and grieved for them. That is why his second book, Lamentations, was written and caused him to be called the "weeping prophet."

So, let's look at this passage IN CONTEXT, and then let's also look at this passage IN A DIFFERENT VERSION, as well:

Jeremiah 4:1-31
1 "If you will return, O Israel,
return to me," declares the LORD.
"If you put your detestable idols out of my sight
and no longer go astray,
2 and if in a truthful, just and righteous way
you swear, 'As surely as the LORD lives,'
then the nations will be blessed by him
and in him they will glory."

3 This is what the LORD says to the men of Judah and to Jerusalem:

"Break up your unplowed ground
and do not sow among thorns.
4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD,
circumcise your hearts,
you men of Judah and people of Jerusalem,
or my wrath will break out and burn like fire
because of the evil you have done —
burn with no one to quench it.

5 "Announce in Judah and proclaim in Jerusalem and say:
'Sound the trumpet throughout the land!'
Cry aloud and say:
'Gather together!
Let us flee to the fortified cities!'
6 Raise the signal to go to Zion!
Flee for safety without delay!
For I am bringing disaster from the north,
even terrible destruction."

7 A lion has come out of his lair;
a destroyer of nations has set out.
He has left his place
to lay waste your land.
Your towns will lie in ruins
without inhabitant.
8 So put on sackcloth,
lament and wail,
for the fierce anger of the LORD
has not turned away from us.
9 "In that day," declares the LORD,
"the king and the officials will lose heart,
the priests will be horrified,
and the prophets will be appalled."
10 Then I said, "Ah, Sovereign LORD, how completely you have deceived this people and Jerusalem by saying, 'You will have peace,' when the sword is at our throats."

11 At that time this people and Jerusalem will be told, "A scorching wind from the barren heights in the desert blows toward my people, but not to winnow or cleanse; 12 a wind too strong for that comes from me. Now I pronounce my judgments against them."
13 Look! He advances like the clouds,
his chariots come like a whirlwind,
his horses are swifter than eagles.
Woe to us! We are ruined!
14 O Jerusalem, wash the evil from your heart and be saved.
How long will you harbor wicked thoughts?
15 A voice is announcing from Dan,
proclaiming disaster from the hills of Ephraim.
16 "Tell this to the nations,
proclaim it to Jerusalem:
'A besieging army is coming from a distant land,
raising a war cry against the cities of Judah.
17 They surround her like men guarding a field,
because she has rebelled against me,'" declares the LORD.
18 "Your own conduct and actions
have brought this upon you.
This is your punishment.
How bitter it is!
How it pierces to the heart!"

19 Oh, my anguish, my anguish!
I writhe in pain.
Oh, the agony of my heart!
My heart pounds within me,
I cannot keep silent.
For I have heard the sound of the trumpet;
I have heard the battle cry.
20 Disaster follows disaster;
the whole land lies in ruins.
In an instant my tents are destroyed,
my shelter in a moment.
21 How long must I see the battle standard
and hear the sound of the trumpet?

22 "My people are fools;
they do not know me.
They are senseless children;
they have no understanding.
They are skilled in doing evil;
they know not how to do good."
23 I looked at the earth (the ground),
and it was formless and empty;
and at the heavens (the skies),
and their light was gone. (SMOKE!)
24 I looked at the mountains,
and they were quaking;
all the hills were swaying.
25 I looked, and there were no people;
every bird in the sky had flown away.
26 I looked, and the fruitful land was a desert;
all its towns lay in ruins
before the LORD, before his fierce anger.
27 This is what the LORD says:

"The whole land will be ruined,
though I will not destroy it completely.
28 Therefore the earth will mourn
and the heavens above grow dark,
because I have spoken and will not relent,
I have decided and will not turn back."
29 At the sound of horsemen and archers
every town takes to flight.
Some go into the thickets;
some climb up among the rocks.
All the towns are deserted;
no one lives in them.
30 What are you doing, O devastated one?
Why dress yourself in scarlet
and put on jewels of gold?
Why shade your eyes with paint?
You adorn yourself in vain.
Your lovers despise you;
they seek your life.
31 I hear a cry as of a woman in labor,
a groan as of one bearing her first child —
the cry of the Daughter of Zion gasping for breath,
stretching out her hands and saying,
"Alas! I am fainting;
my life is given over to murderers."
NIV


Do you understand verse 23 in context now? One does not have to go crazy with some far-fetched explanation for its "other meaning"; one just simply has to understand the ACCOUNT! (I'd say "STORY," except that implies a FICTIONAL story.)

We need to get back to reading the Scriptures FOR UNDERSTANDING AND ENJOYMENT like little children hang on the words of a good story! Let the Scriptures speak to US; we should not be trying to make sense of the Scriptures from our preconceived notions, theories, and philosophies. Exegesis, not eisegesis!
 

shturt678

New Member
Feb 9, 2013
970
23
0
83
South Point, Hawaii (Big Island)
It's all Hebrew to me, however thank you folks for caring! :)

Gen.1:5, "And God called the light day and the darkness He called night. Then camed evening, then came morning - the first day." :blink: This act reports that God fixed day and night separately for their respective purposes, correct?

In the interest of accuracy it should be noted that within the confines of this one verse the word "day" is used in two different senses. "Day" (yom) over against "night" (layelah) must refer to the light part of the day, roughly, a twelve hour period. When the verse concludes with the statement that the first "day" (yom) is concluded, the term must mean a twenty-four hour period, ie, time of the year most like at its vernal equinox.

The ol' approimately 7,000 years old the old earth is.

Old Jack getting older
 

Rocky Wiley

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Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

created

bârâ'
baw-raw'
A primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes): - choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

create (meaning in english)
to cause to come into existence

bara (greek) does not mean to create out of nothing, it implies making something different from another object.

To form
To select
To feed
To choose
To fill
To fatten
To shape
To cut down
To dispatch

Heaven and earth in the bible means God’s covenant people and God was shaping his people. When Moses was addessing Israel in Deuteronomy he used these words.
Deu 32:1 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
When Jesus said said to the disciples:
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
He was speaking of the covenant people that were living under at that time.
When he said in Revelation:
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
He was speaking of the old covenant people being reshaped into the new covenant people. Again, not making something from nothing, but forming a new out of the old.

The whole bible, Genesis through Revelation, is about God and his covenant people.
 

shturt678

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Rocky Wiley said:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

created

bârâ'
baw-raw'
A primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes): - choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

create (meaning in english)
to cause to come into existence

bara (greek) does not mean to create out of nothing, it implies making something different from another object.

To form
To select
To feed
To choose
To fill
To fatten
To shape
To cut down
To dispatch

Heaven and earth in the bible means God’s covenant people and God was shaping his people. When Moses was addessing Israel in Deuteronomy he used these words.
Deu 32:1 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
When Jesus said said to the disciples:
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
He was speaking of the covenant people that were living under at that time.
When he said in Revelation:
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
He was speaking of the old covenant people being reshaped into the new covenant people. Again, not making something from nothing, but forming a new out of the old.

The whole bible, Genesis through Revelation, is about God and his covenant people.
Thank you for caring!

I have a little different take on it, ie, the whole Bible is about the Kingdom of God and the Promise, which includes His 'coventant people.'

Old Jack's opinion
 

Rocky Wiley

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shturt678 said:
Thank you for caring!

I have a little different take on it, ie, the whole Bible is about the Kingdom of God and the Promise, which includes His 'coventant people.'

Old Jack's opinion
You realize that it was a promise to the ones he had made the covenant with, right?

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
 

shturt678

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Rocky Wiley said:

You realize that it was a promise to the ones he had made the covenant with, right?
Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Thank you for your response!

For example more like a preliminary promise for Israel's faith, and that with Abraham, where God advanced this earlier promise to an actual covenant, correct?

Let's not sight of the "Supreme concept of the N.T." - THE KINGDOM OF GOD, correct?

Heb.10:1 (9:1), "good things to come" "Christ" Veni, vidi, vici

Heb.10:9, one cannot but agape Ps.40:6-8 appropriated. The lines are the voice of the Messiah Himself speaking to God hundreds of years before this Messiah "appeared" (v.26) as God-man, and did God's will.

Old Jack's view
 

DPMartin

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Retrobyter said:
We need to get back to reading the Scriptures FOR UNDERSTANDING AND ENJOYMENT like little children hang on the words of a good story! Let the Scriptures speak to US; we should not be trying to make sense of the Scriptures from our preconceived notions, theories, and philosophies. Exegesis, not eisegesis!
Very, very very very well said.

Its almost like insulting the Lord God’s intelligents, that men think to know what God’s says ought to mean, rather than understanding and acknowledge that the Word of God, the Lord Jesus Christ our King and Savior is always correct and we don’t know squat, unless He tells us.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, dear brother Jack.

shturt678 said:
I was just curous how He would tell us?

Old curiosity Jack
He tells us like He ALWAYS talks to us - by the Ruach haQodesh revealing His mind through the reading of His Word! (But then, you already knew that, didn't you?) What DPMartin is talking about is the almost-compulsive need that some people have to CORRECT God's Word, rather than just read it and accept it at face value. E.g., consider the account of Yonah (Jonah) being swallowed whole by the "great fish" (NOT a "whale"): Some people are so adamantly opposed to a literal interpretation of this account that they claim it is simply an allegory for something else. "It can't POSSIBLY mean that the man was literally swallowed by a whale!" This need to CORRECT God's Word instead of just interpreting God's Word is called "hypercriticism!" Such hypercriticism IS INDEED "putting the man above God." And, DPMartin is correct; it DOES insult God's Intelligence! It also calls God a LIAR!

I know you wouldn't be that way, so I'm not talking about you; I'm just giving you a "heads-up" as to where DPMartin is coming from.
 

shturt678

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Retrobyter said:
Shalom, dear brother Jack.
Thank you for your resonse, and a heartful head's up!



He tells us like He ALWAYS talks to us - by the Ruach haQodesh revealing His mind through the reading of His Word! (But then, you already knew that, didn't you?)
Had a Jewish professor long ago, and he made sure I understood "Judaism," ie, my corrected papers looked like Xmas was already here. I also understood, ie, even in that class, that the Ruach haQodesh = El El-yon.



What DPMartin is talking about is the almost-compulsive need that some people have to CORRECT God's Word, rather than just read it and accept it at face value.
I do appreciate your view thus don't take me the wrong way. All Bible translations are extremely interpretive to the point that even "Judaism" can find credibility in the translations. However interpreting going from the ancient languages forward to the English narrows down all the extreme to just diverse interpretations to a reasonable few. Going backwards tossing in a little Greek and Hebrew in to sweeten the pot (your not doing this, only an eg.) may lead one into IIThess.2;4 where they actually think they are worshippng the Genuine Ebed Yahweh of Isaiah for example.



E.g., consider the account of Yonah (Jonah) being swallowed whole by the "great fish" (NOT a "whale"): Some people are so adamantly opposed to a literal interpretation of this account that they claim it is simply an allegory for something else. "It can't POSSIBLY mean that the man was literally swallowed by a whale!" This need to CORRECT God's Word instead of just interpreting God's Word is called "hypercriticism!" Such hypercriticism IS INDEED "putting the man above God." And, DPMartin is correct; it DOES insult God's Intelligence! It also calls God a LIAR!

I know you wouldn't be that way, so I'm not talking about you; I'm just giving you a "heads-up" as to where DPMartin is coming from.
If we were not born into a full blown apostasy, I would see no need of my example of 'hypercriticism' played out, and we would only need 'Bible Criticism.' I'm adamantly against 'Higher Criticism' of course.

Old Jack that appreciates you folks