Do you trust the Holy Spirit or the counsel of men?

[banjo71]

An interesting thought, "Do you trust the Holy Spirit or the counsel of men?"

In Galations 1:10, Paul says thru the apostleship given him by Jesus Christ this:

For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond servant of Christ.

I think a huge thing to think about when hot debates are happening on the forum, is that we need to trust God much more than the people on the forums. If they quote scripture, that's one thing. It's important to take note. But if it's speculation and fruitless discussion, turn away:


1 Timothy 1:3-7

As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines, nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith. But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.


It is imperative that to be a good witness to unbelievers who view this forum to adhere to the underlined scripture. This factor may attract or disgust a potential convert.


Remember, God saves. We can't. We are testifying of God's saving power of the Gospel.

 

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[quote name='One of God's Children' timestamp='1306899413' post='112722']
An interesting thought, "Do you trust the Holy Spirit or the counsel of men?"
[/quote]

On the surface this assertion would seem innocent and sincere. In actual practice, however, it is anything but.

The scripture references which follow the assertion are all quotes of St. Paul, a man recognized by his peers and by history as one possessed of an apostolic ministry.
Do all men have such credentials?

They do not.

Yet in the exalted status of their opinion, modern day proponents of religion hold forth on any and every opinion whether it is logically or scripturally sound or not.
How can we determine the truth?

The same way that men have sought the truth for all time, by learning from their betters, by observation, by logic and by examination of their ideas with THEIR peers.
There are all sorts of ideas floating around out there and there isn't any way to insure that one is listening to the Holy Spirit, a demon (as in Mohammad's Qur'an), or last nights unsettled supper - EXCEPT by comparison to established and accepted ideology.

Those that hold to the notion that they alone have been given the 'true vision' are usually the ones that are not walking in the way of Christ, but are instead headed for a fall into the roadside ditch.

Do I trust the Holy Spirit? Yes, insofar as the spiritual epiphany I received meets the criteria for Holy Spirit revelation.
Do I trust the counsel of men? Yes, but to a point of examination and comparison with established doctrine.
Do I trust my own opinion? Yes, but to a point of self-examination and comparison with established doctrine.

 

[Joshua David]

On the surface this assertion would seem innocent and sincere. In actual practice, however, it is anything but.

The scripture references which follow the assertion are all quotes of St. Paul, a man recognized by his peers and by history as one possessed of an apostolic ministry.
Do all men have such credentials?

They do not.

Yet in the exalted status of their opinion, modern day proponents of religion hold forth on any and every opinion whether it is logically or scripturally sound or not.
How can we determine the truth?

The same way that men have sought the truth for all time, by learning from their betters, by observation, by logic and by examination of their ideas with THEIR peers.
There are all sorts of ideas floating around out there and there isn't any way to insure that one is listening to the Holy Spirit, a demon (as in Mohammad's Qur'an), or last nights unsettled supper - EXCEPT by comparison to established and accepted ideology.

Those that hold to the notion that they alone have been given the 'true vision' are usually the ones that are not walking in the way of Christ, but are instead headed for a fall into the roadside ditch.

Do I trust the Holy Spirit? Yes, insofar as the spiritual epiphany I received meets the criteria for Holy Spirit revelation.
Do I trust the counsel of men? Yes, but to a point of examination and comparison with established doctrine.
Do I trust my own opinion? Yes, but to a point of self-examination and comparison with established doctrine.

I loved this post. Very well thought out. 99% of the time, when someone says, "I have the Holy Spirit to guide me, and if you would just ask Him he will guide you into the truth as well." What he is really saying is, "I am right and you are wrong, and God says I am right, so there nah, nah, Nahnah, nah."


Joshau David

 

[Holy Pursuit]

Yes, the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth and yes, we need to do this together, we were never meant to journey alone as we are His Body, and were meant for unity. The sole person, "being led by the Spirit", as Joshua David said the attitude of you are right and I am wrong rings true, can I say, especially on forums. We are all at different levels of understanding and if we don't have those people who are farther along, then sometimes it's difficult to discern, we receive wisdom from them and this receiving and giving back and forth is a blessing from God. He allows us to be able to learn from others and teach others, through the Holy Spirit. The Bible also tells us that He gave us teachers, and so Bibically, yes we are to be taught by the Holy Spirit through Spirit led and faithful men. Yet, other times God teaches us things on our own and sometimes it's nice to confirm with a person who is more mature. When we allow it to all work together, it's a nice balance.

Blessings.

 

[martinlawrencescott]

Pertaining to the scripture posted, I believe truth presented without love is not an accurate representation of truth. At least, truth without love will benefit no one. The way truth is presented matters as much as truth itself. Truth presented "From a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith" will lead us to a better understanding of who God is, which will lead us to a better understanding of who we are in relation to God and to each other.

But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

If the goal of our instruction is lost, and if our motive strays from these virtues, then there is no gain and we will lose understanding. Our truth and understanding thereof will be lost and wasted when it isn't reflected by a pure heart.

What makes it so dangerous is that what many of us are saying is true, but the way we say it leads one to believe we have no understanding of what we believe or that we do not really believe what we say we believe, or else we would present the truth, which requires sincere representation, in an accurately loving manner.

Psalm 139:
[sup]23[/sup] Search me, God, and know my heart;
test me and know my anxious thoughts.
[sup]24[/sup] See if there is any offensive way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting.

We can each take our hearts before God and ask Him to show us where we are off. None of us gets it right. We have limited power to change the hearts and minds of those we share truth with, but we have immense freedom to offer our ability to accurately and powerfully portray that truth by first vulnerably presenting our hearts before God in prayer and petitioning a better way to emerge from within us.

 

[Episkopos]

Yes, the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth and yes, we need to do this together, we were never meant to journey alone as we are His Body, and were meant for unity. The sole person, "being led by the Spirit", as Joshua David said the attitude of you are right and I am wrong rings true, can I say, especially on forums. We are all at different levels of understanding and if we don't have those people who are farther along, then sometimes it's difficult to discern, we receive wisdom from them and this receiving and giving back and forth is a blessing from God. He allows us to be able to learn from others and teach others, through the Holy Spirit. The Bible also tells us that He gave us teachers, and so Bibically, yes we are to be taught by the Holy Spirit through Spirit led and faithful men. Yet, other times God teaches us things on our own and sometimes it's nice to confirm with a person who is more mature. When we allow it to all work together, it's a nice balance.

Blessings.

Yes! Paul says WE have the mind of Christ...not I have the mind of Christ.

Paul also says no I but Christ! So there must be an element of self-denial in the one who would present the truth.

 

[Thankful 1]

A person receives the console of men, and then he or she accepts Jesus as God and one’s savior. This person gets baptized in Jesus name and receives the Holy Spirit. Scripture tells us that at times there needs to be a laying on of hands by an apostle to receive the Holy Spirit. There are times when neither baptism nor laying on of hands is needed to receive the Holy Spirit.



(Acts 2:38-39) “You must repent, Peter answered and every one of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise that was made is for you and your children, and for all those who are far away, for all those whom the Lord our God is calling to himself.”



Jesus tells us that he will call out his people by name, and they will follow no other.



John tells us: (1 John 2:27) “But you have not lost the anointing that he gave you, and you do not need anyone to teach you, the anointing he gave teaches you everything; you are anointed with truth, not a lie, and as it has taught you, so you must stay in him.”



Also scripture tells us: (Hebrews 8:11-12) “No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”



I believe from personal knowledge that one needs a personal relationship with Jesus and needs to allow Jesus and the Holy Spirit personally teach him or her about God.



Paul tells us that one can only come to know God if he or she lets God teach him or her.



(1 Corinthians 2:10-16) “These are the very things that God has revealed to us through the Spirit, for the Spirit reaches the depts. Of everything, even the depths of God. After all, the depths of a man can only be known by his own spirit, not by any other man, and in the same way the depths of God can only be known by the Spirit of God. Now instead of the spirit of the world, we have received the Spirit that comes from God, to teach us to understand the gifts that he has given us. Therefore we teach, not in the way in which philosophy is taught, but in the way that the Spirit teaches us: we teach spiritual things spiritually. A spiritual man, on the other hand, is able to judge the value of everything and his own value in not to be judged by other men. As scripture says;’ who can know the mind of the Lord, so who can teach him?’ But we are those who have the mind of Christ.”



Having God make his home in one is when a person becomes spiritual. That person is a temple of God. A temple of God has no sin entering it.

 

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Having God make his home in one is when a person becomes spiritual. That person is a temple of God. A temple of God has no sin entering it.

Ooops. Big mistake on this one.

This is grossly wrong, theologically, practically and historically.

The history of the church AND community AND the Bible is full of stories about Godly men who erred.

It is indeed possible for sin to affect a Christian's life.

Name ONE SINGLE pastor, one single godly shepard who has never had to help a member of his church to deal with sin in their life.
Does that mean that said person isn't Christian or it doesn't mean to struggle to the best of their ability to be a better one?
Or is all this business about Christianity just a liturgical joke?

Perhaps you refer to spiritual warfare and the effect of demons and unclean spirits upon AND WITHIN a Christian.
BTW do you even know there's a difference between these critters?
Either way your statement betrays a lack of knowledge of the theology of sanctification as well as spiritual realities.

One of the things that sets Christianity apart from all other religions is it's firm grasp on the existance and effect of sin in man's heart.

To state that it isn't there is grossly incorrect as well as childishly naive.

Shall we now engage a multitude of scripture quotations to prove that YOU are so worked in perfection that YOU have never sinned?

Shall we rip the book of Romans completely out of the Bible because it is totally wrong or shall we just rewrite it a little?

Sin is real and it has a profound effect upon the life of the confessed and regenerate Christians. To deny it is either the work of the uneducated and experienced or the statement of a disicple of Satan itself.

Sin is real and it is here. Deal with it.

 

[Thankful 1]

Ooops. Big mistake on this one.

This is grossly wrong, theologically, practically and historically.

The history of the church AND community AND the Bible is full of stories about Godly men who erred.

It is indeed possible for sin to affect a Christian's life.

Name ONE SINGLE pastor, one single godly shepard who has never had to help a member of his church to deal with sin in their life.
Does that mean that said person isn't Christian or it doesn't mean to struggle to the best of their ability to be a better one?
Or is all this business about Christianity just a liturgical joke?

Perhaps you refer to spiritual warfare and the effect of demons and unclean spirits upon AND WITHIN a Christian.
BTW do you even know there's a difference between these critters?
Either way your statement betrays a lack of knowledge of the theology of sanctification as well as spiritual realities.

One of the things that sets Christianity apart from all other religions is it's firm grasp on the existance and effect of sin in man's heart.

To state that it isn't there is grossly incorrect as well as childishly naive.

Shall we now engage a multitude of scripture quotations to prove that YOU are so worked in perfection that YOU have never sinned?

Shall we rip the book of Romans completely out of the Bible because it is totally wrong or shall we just rewrite it a little?

Sin is real and it has a profound effect upon the life of the confessed and regenerate Christians. To deny it is either the work of the uneducated and experienced or the statement of a disicple of Satan itself.

Sin is real and it is here. Deal with it.

(1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray; to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy; to lead a sinful life is to belong to the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

 

[IanLC]

Wonderful and a wake up call. I would hope all of those who claim to be teachers, preachers, etc (including myself) would ask ourselves that question daily. We need to understand that our wisdom comes form God not from the flesh or man! Man may seem to have a "god like" wisdom but it is limited to our preception and our senses. But when we tap into the Holy Spirit which searches the deep things of God "YHWH" and reveals them to us in part then we can have some insight but never an omniscient wisdom which belongs to God alone!

But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. (James 3:7)

In Him all the treasures of [divine] wisdom (comprehensive insight into the ways and purposes of God) and [all the riches of spiritual] knowledge and enlightenment are stored up and lie hidden. (Colossians 2:3)

[The purpose is] that through the church the complicated, many-sided wisdom of God in all its infinite variety and innumerable aspects might now be made known to the angelic rulers and authorities (principalities and powers) in the heavenly sphere. (Ephesians 3:10)

There is no [human] wisdom or understanding or counsel [that can prevail] against the Lord. (Proverbs 21:30)

 

[Miss Hepburn]

Answering the topic title only - let's put it this way:
If I was told by a doctor I had cancer - would I even believe him or would I know I was
whole and healed - just go to my church for a healing just in case I had allowed some cancer cells to grow in me
by some mistake.

Counsel of the Holy Spirit - always and only - do I trust that small Voice that says -turn left when
the written directions SAY turn right ---always - and the smal Voice is always correct.

Miss Hepburn

 

[Thankful 1]

Answering the topic title only - let's put it this way:
If I was told by a doctor I had cancer - would I even believe him or would I know I was
whole and healed - just go to my church for a healing just in case I had allowed some cancer cells to grow in me
by some mistake.

Counsel of the Holy Spirit - always and only - do I trust that small Voice that says -turn left when
the written directions SAY turn right ---always - and the smal Voice is always correct.

Miss Hepburn

Three times in the last five years or so, I came down with very serious health problems. Two of those incidences were life threatening. The other was the loss of my eyesight. I asked Jesus if I should seek the advice of a doctor. Each time I was told no. The first two times after Jesus told me no, nothing got better for some time, one time it was two weeks before I was healed. That time I wondered if Jesus wanted me to die. The next time was longer than two weeks and I came to the point of asking Jesus again about seeing a doctor, but I did get the grace to trust what Jesus told me, and again I was healed. The last time I had a heart attack, and it was very apparent that I was close to death. I asked Jesus if I should get help, and again he said no. This time I got better in a short period of time. Later, a month or so latter I had a heart test that had been scheduled for some time. My heart was great.

 

[Robbie]

The Holy Spirit is my teacher... but accountability from people who love me is also good... having people who really know and love me and will give me a good kick in the butt when I need it is a valuable thing...

 

[rockytopva]

Martin Luther use to say that "In the name of God begins all mischief."


If either the Holy Spirit or mans council goes against the word of God chances are there is a devil working in the midst of things.

I believe that Satan tries to sew darkness in the church and light in the world in his grand scheme to deceive humanity. It is important that the Holy Spirit that is talking is actually the Holy Spirit!

 

[Thankful 1]

Martin Luther use to say that "In the name of God begins all mischief."


If either the Holy Spirit or mans council goes against the word of God chances are there is a devil working in the midst of things.

I believe that Satan tries to sew darkness in the church and light in the world in his grand scheme to deceive humanity. It is important that the Holy Spirit that is talking is actually the Holy Spirit!

Let me explain something. There is a peace, which accompanies God’s interaction with us. Also one will never be led into any wrongdoing, and if one does perform some wrongdoing he or she will lose that peace God gives him or her.



There is another something that can and often happens, is the Holy Spirit/Jesus will teach a person a truth, but the truth goes against what the person may have been taught by his or her church. A personal example: Jesus told me that we were not to hurt/harm anyone for any reason. That teaching went against everything I had been taught about war, and self-defence, by my church. Now I went to scripture and found: (Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”



My relationship with Jesus had been developing for some time and I knew it was God talking to me, so there was no question on my part that it was Jesus telling me the church was wrong.



What so often happen is the situation that I just described is a person will discard what Jesus/Holy Spirit told them, and follow what the church teaches. They then wonder why they no longer walk in the Spirit.

 

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There are a number of odd things about the Bible. One of them is that a Christian is advised to behave a certain way. General guidlines are provided in scripture, BUT NOTHING SPECIFIC as to how to 'do it'. This applies to purely spiritual things as well as physical things. We are told what to do, but not exactly how to go about it.

Why?

Because every man's life situation and circumstances is different.

That is why it is of vital importance to follow the directions of the Holy Spirit who lives in us, walks with us, KNOWS OUR PROBLEMS, and who knows how to fix things (much better than we do). The Holy Spirit leads us in filling in those apparent gaps in behavioral directions. Like a class at the home improvement store, He shows us how to do it in intimate detail. This is also why Paul states over and over that it is important to walk in the spirit - to literally follow His lead.

The problem is that we don't do that very well. Some folks spin their wheels over the same sin or failures all their lives. They improve a little and then slip back, beg forgiveness and try again. The glory of Our Lord is that He is with us; He forgives us, He picks us up again, and begins anew to show us the way. Very often He will bring people into our lives who can help us in our crippled efforts to persevere.

One cannot fully ignore the help of our fellow saints and literature as they may be some of the tools that Our Lord brings to us in times of great need.......yes and even in the little things too.