Doctrines of Grace

[Iconoclast]

Jane_Doe22,
[Cutting to the chase: my HUGE problem with the idea these ideas of "election", is that I find that they ignore that God created ALL. ]

God's decree of election may, therefore, be thus described: An act, in which the eternal, unchangeable, infinitely wise, gracious, powerful, faithful, and sovereign God, intending to manifest to men the glory of his own perfections, particularly of his power, wisdom, sovereignty, and free grace,
Rom 11:33; Eph 3:10; Matt 11:26; Matt 20:15-16; Rom 9:15-16,18-23; Rom 11:35-36; Eph 1:5-6; 1 Pet 2:9.—

hath in his love foreknown and fore-chosen to the enjoyment of eternal salvation and all its benefits,

Rom 8:29-30; 1 Pet 1:2; 2 Tim 2:19; John 3:16; Rom 5:8,21; Rom 9:13; 1 John 4:9-10; Isa 45:17; 1 Cor 1:30.—

some persons of mankind,—the smaller number,—and whom he pleased,— as permitted, or to be permitted to fall into sin and misery, from which they could not recover themselves, Matt 20:16; Matt 22:14; 2 Tim 2:19; John 10:26-28; John 13:18; John 17:6,9,12; John 3:16; John 15:19; Rom 8:29; Rom 9:16,18; Rom 5:8,10.—

and hath predestinated them unto fellowship with, conformity to, adoption through, and joint heirship and eternal happiness in Christ, Eph 1:3- 5; Rom 8:29.—

and without being, in the least, moved to it, by any foreseen qualities or acts of theirs, natural or moral,—hath of his own mere will, sovereign grace, and good pleasure, Matt 11:25-26; Luke 12:32; Rom 9:11,15-16; Eph 1:5-6; 2 Tim 1:9; 1 Cor 1:26-28.—

from all eternity, Matt 25:34; Eph 1:4; 2 Tim 1:9; Rev 13:8.—

chosen them in Christ as their Head, Prov 8:23,31; Eph 1:4; 2 Tim 1:9.—

in infinite and compassion hath unalterably ordained and appointed them to be partakers of eternal salvation, life, and happiness through him, Rom 9:11,15-16,18,23; 2 Tim 1:9; 2 Tim 2:19; Acts 13:48; 1 Thess 5:9-10; 1 Thess 4:17; Isa 45:17; Rom 11:29.—and hath inscribed their names in his book of life, Luke 10:20; Rev 3:5; Rev 17:8; Rev 13:8; Rev 20:12; Rev 21:27; Phil 4:3; Isa 4:3.——

thus distinguishing them from the rest of mankind, who are left to perish in their sinfulness and misery, 1 Cor 4:7; Rom 9:11-13; Eph 1:4.—

and hath in that same wise and unchangeable counsel, appointed the mediation of Christ, an interest in his righteousness, effectual calling, faith, and holiness, as means of their obtaining and improving that eternal life,—that so his inflexible justice and infinite mercy may harmoniously shine forth therein, John 3:16-17; 1 John 3:5,8; 1 John 4:9-10; John 10:10- 11,15,26-29; John 17:4,6,9; Eph 1:4; Eph 5:2,23-27; Col 1:19; Col 2:3,9-13; 2 Tim 1:9; 2 Tim 2:10,19; Isa 45:17,22,24-25; Acts 13:48; 2 Thess 2:13; Rom 4:16; Mark 16:16; Heb 11:6; Heb 12:14

 

[Iconoclast]

God incomparable in his being, as he is absolutely perfect, universal, unchangeable 4. He is an absolutely perfect being. There is a twofold perfection compatible to beings. Some are perfect in their kind; that is, have all things requisite to that species of which they are. So we say the world is perfect, because it hath all things needful to a world. A man is a perfect man, that hath a body with all its parts and members, and a soul with all its powers and faculties.
But secondly, A being is absolutely perfect, when nothing can be added to it, or taken from it, when it is incapable of the least accession or diminution. Now such a being is God, and none but God

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Sorry , but the confessions of faith are very clear on this;

Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;
yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
This is found in all responsible and consistent teaching of all the historic confessions.
You make the charge, you need to offer scriptural proof.
Your lack of understanding and carnal philosophy is no reason to disparage Christians who understand the doctrines of Grace.

I read in scripture about a God whom so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son to die for it. Whom created the world, everything and everyone therein, and know all things beginning to end. I read in the Bible about a God whom sets people free, and offers salvation for everyone.

Calvinism... frankly teach the opposite of all of that. I PASSIONATELY disagree with it-- in fact there's no other faith I so passionately disagree with (Christian or non). I'm trying really hard to be charitable here...

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Jane_Doe22,
[Cutting to the chase: my HUGE problem with the idea these ideas of "election", is that I find that they ignore that God created ALL. ]

God's decree of election may, therefore, be thus described: An act, in which the eternal, unchangeable, infinitely wise, gracious, powerful, faithful, and sovereign God, intending to manifest to men the glory of his own perfections, particularly of his power, wisdom, sovereignty, and free grace,
Rom 11:33; Eph 3:10; Matt 11:26; Matt 20:15-16; Rom 9:15-16,18-23; Rom 11:35-36; Eph 1:5-6; 1 Pet 2:9.—

hath in his love foreknown and fore-chosen to the enjoyment of eternal salvation and all its benefits,

Rom 8:29-30; 1 Pet 1:2; 2 Tim 2:19; John 3:16; Rom 5:8,21; Rom 9:13; 1 John 4:9-10; Isa 45:17; 1 Cor 1:30.—

some persons of mankind,—the smaller number,—and whom he pleased,— as permitted, or to be permitted to fall into sin and misery, from which they could not recover themselves, Matt 20:16; Matt 22:14; 2 Tim 2:19; John 10:26-28; John 13:18; John 17:6,9,12; John 3:16; John 15:19; Rom 8:29; Rom 9:16,18; Rom 5:8,10.—

and hath predestinated them unto fellowship with, conformity to, adoption through, and joint heirship and eternal happiness in Christ, Eph 1:3- 5; Rom 8:29.—

and without being, in the least, moved to it, by any foreseen qualities or acts of theirs, natural or moral,—hath of his own mere will, sovereign grace, and good pleasure, Matt 11:25-26; Luke 12:32; Rom 9:11,15-16; Eph 1:5-6; 2 Tim 1:9; 1 Cor 1:26-28.—

from all eternity, Matt 25:34; Eph 1:4; 2 Tim 1:9; Rev 13:8.—

chosen them in Christ as their Head, Prov 8:23,31; Eph 1:4; 2 Tim 1:9.—

in infinite and compassion hath unalterably ordained and appointed them to be partakers of eternal salvation, life, and happiness through him, Rom 9:11,15-16,18,23; 2 Tim 1:9; 2 Tim 2:19; Acts 13:48; 1 Thess 5:9-10; 1 Thess 4:17; Isa 45:17; Rom 11:29.—and hath inscribed their names in his book of life, Luke 10:20; Rev 3:5; Rev 17:8; Rev 13:8; Rev 20:12; Rev 21:27; Phil 4:3; Isa 4:3.——

thus distinguishing them from the rest of mankind, who are left to perish in their sinfulness and misery, 1 Cor 4:7; Rom 9:11-13; Eph 1:4.—

and hath in that same wise and unchangeable counsel, appointed the mediation of Christ, an interest in his righteousness, effectual calling, faith, and holiness, as means of their obtaining and improving that eternal life,—that so his inflexible justice and infinite mercy may harmoniously shine forth therein, John 3:16-17; 1 John 3:5,8; 1 John 4:9-10; John 10:10- 11,15,26-29; John 17:4,6,9; Eph 1:4; Eph 5:2,23-27; Col 1:19; Col 2:3,9-13; 2 Tim 1:9; 2 Tim 2:10,19; Isa 45:17,22,24-25; Acts 13:48; 2 Thess 2:13; Rom 4:16; Mark 16:16; Heb 11:6; Heb 12:14

And what about everyone else?

I'm sorry, again I'm trying REWALLY hard to be charitable here, but you're not thinking things through. Whom created the damned with no way to choose good (according to Calvinism) and sentenced them to an eternal fire? God.

 

[GEN2REV]

We agree a lot, Icon.

I think the vast majority of Christians, even those who hold a decent grasp of scripture, overlook at least two very important, and concrete, teachings of the Bible, though.

-The fact that OSAS is not supported by scripture, as a whole.

-And the fact that not all people belong to God; not all people are even of God.

These two factors, alone, completely alter the entire picture of Christianity revealing a complex dynamic that is veritably foreign to the masses at large.

No OSAS (once saved always saved/eternal security):
"Every branch in Me (only true believers can be 'IN' Christ) that beareth not fruit (of the Spirit) He (the Father) taketh away: ..."
John 15:2
"If a man abideth not in Me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered: ...(and gathered)... and cast ... into the fire, and ... burned."
John 15:6
-This is undoubtedly believers losing their salvation due to a lack of persisting in the faith. There is no getting around it.
"Know ye not that they ... run a race run ... (to) ... receive the prize? ... And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. ..."
1 Corinthians 9:24-25
-Paul is speaking here of a marathon, not a sprint. What marathon is there in being guaranteed salvation no matter what you do?
-What striving for mastery is there in God doing all things for you?
" ... he that shall endure unto the end, ... shall be saved."
Matthew 24:13
-What is there to endure if OSAS?
-Saved from what?
" ... we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence (the faith we were given initially) stedfast unto the end."
Hebrews 3:14
"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; ... "
Hebrews 10:23
-Why do we need to hold fast to our faith if we can never lose it?

Not all people are of, or belong to, God.
"I am the True Vine, ..."
John 15:1
-Which demands there is a False Vine.
"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: ... "
1 John 3:10
" ... I will put enmity (perpetual opposition/hostility) between ... thy (the devil's) seed and her seed; ... "
Genesis 3:15
-The devil's seed is the False Vine.
"Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love Me: ... Ye are of your father the devil ... there is no Truth in him. ... "
John 8:42, 44

-Many dismiss this perspective as symbolism so I will finish with the Wheat and Tares doctrine. Some would insist it is only a parable and has no literal Truth to it at all. Parables are only for the crowds, the multitudes. Let's see.

After relating the parable of the Wheat and Tares to the multitude with His disciples present, He "sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and His disciples came unto Him, saying Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field ("Explain to us what this really means, in real terms"). He answered ... He that soweth the good seed is the Son of Man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one. The enemy that soweth them is the devil; ..."
Matthew 13:36-39

Important to note: Bad children were ordered to be stoned to death in the OT. This only really makes sense if there are actually physical people who are not of God. If we are all of the devil only spiritually until we are saved, or give our lives to God, this doesn't really follow the logic of God instructing parents how to weed out the bad seeds in their childhood.

 

[Grailhunter]

Correct. They should be called "The Doctrines of Disgrace". It is a terrible shame that Christians who should have known better from Scripture twisted the Gospel and perverted the truth. At the same time there are many other doctrines in the Westminster Confession with which we can all agree.

A lot people that get involved with Calvinism do not know the extent of this puppet show.
I have met some that found out after going to the church for years and were very mad.

It does not make any sense. I am all for believing God is Almighty, omnipresent, omniscience, and omnipotent. But unlike humans, total power has not corrupted God. The whole concept of the puppet show is cruel and pointless...its only true intent that it accomplishes is self-edifying.

And I have dealt with these people and this whole predestination and edifying thing can backfire in their face. Things go bad, for them, for their family....children on drugs....children die....horrible deaths....some of these Calvinists come away thinking that God hates them because He decided for it to happen to them before they were born.....they never stood a chance and He made it happen and there is no escape.

It does not matter if it is Calvinism or OSAS or one of these social beliefs that have chosen social morals over biblically morals. The truth is that they are not represented in early Christianity. Christ and the Apostles did not demonstrate the sin and sin some more beliefs in their lives. Christ forgave the prostitute at His feet, but He did not take her out and do her. He drank with people, but He was not known as the drunken Messiah. If there were those that had these beliefs, there would have been a great deal of arguments about it. The Ecumenical Councils would have went wild over all this! These councils were well documented and if anyone would have come up with these ideas they would have been declared heretics and may not have survived it. There were groups that were declared heretics for much less.

Can you imagine the witch-hunt and inquisitions. "So you believe that you can sin all you want and you will be rewarded with heaven!" That would be when the hot pokers would come out. And the Protestants would not have been anymore tolerant of such evil beliefs. Protestants also prosecuted people for sins against God. A look at history will give quite the education for such things. You can look all this up yourself. The point being that most of these beliefs are modern.

We live in a society were Christians morals are consider old fashion...out of date...no longer applicable....even unfair. Why would you want to condemn those homosexuals, it is not their fault? That is so cruel! Why do think that homosexuals won't go to heaven? That is not fair! Kids have fun with drugs! Is having fun a sin? Child molestation, that is just love! It is an insanity that is so absurd that only the evil can support it. God is a monstrous puppet master that enslaved the whole planet and even in Heaven you will be a robot. All manner of evil will be reward with Heaven. Heaven will be the abode of evil! It is just crazy!

This is one of the reasons that I am not a Fundamentalist. There is more to the story than just the Bible. It was proven a long time ago that a person can take their personal beliefs and go to the Bible and cherry pick scriptures to find almost anything.....But what is neat and true, is that the character of the person that does that is revealed in what they weave....because it is their true desire.

I say believe in Christ and be a follower of Christ and be good and do good as well as you can....that is my character. What is theirs's.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Hello Paul
There is a common grace given to all men .
God allows them to breathe His air, enjoy the blessings of Married life,family, friends .
Men are kept in check by a God given conscience.
These Grace's are common to all men.
Saving faith, repentance and faith, a new heart, are only given or graced to those elected by God before the world was.2tim.1:9
These Grace's are made effectual simultaneous to regeneration, new birth.

By that thinking you are saying that grace is not universal and the invitation to hear and believe the gospel is not extended to all? How does this relate to John 3:16 where the invitation to believe the Gospel is extended to the "whosoever" and not just selected people?

My point is that if God's grace is extended to all, along with the invitation to believe the Gospel, then there must be another factor that causes a person to be saved and another to be lost. God's grace alone doesn't save. There is another factor added that makes the difference.

If grace is extended to only a select group of people called "the elect" why do so many go all over the world and preach the Gospel? Why bother, if the "elect" are going to be saved anyway?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

If God sovereignly writes only those being chosen in the Book of Life, then why would He change His mind? So much for OSAS.

Rev. 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

 

[Robert Gwin]

my friend,any who deny Jesus is God go into second death.
They will learn that as He tells them depart from me,I never knew you.

Not a Bible teaching sir, those who deny his God however will be a part of the second death for sure.

 

[farouk]

By that thinking you are saying that grace is not universal and the invitation to hear and believe the gospel is not extended to all? How does this relate to John 3:16 where the invitation to believe the Gospel is extended to the "whosoever" and not just selected people?

My point is that if God's grace is extended to all, along with the invitation to believe the Gospel, then there must be another factor that causes a person to be saved and another to be lost. God's grace alone doesn't save. There is another factor added that makes the difference.

If grace is extended to only a select group of people called "the elect" why do so many go all over the world and preach the Gospel? Why bother, if the "elect" are going to be saved anyway?

It's all of grace and all through faith...