Does Daniel 11 Describe King Herod and His Dynasty?

[Exegesis]

*DISCLAIMER* - If you believe that the phrase 'time of the end' in Daniel 11:40 is referring to the future, then this thread is not for you.

Daniel 11:40 "And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over."

This is more of a 'Preterist' perspective.

I found these sets of videos that interprets the later verses of Daniel 11 as pointing to King Herod and his dynasty. I'm going to post them here for those of you that are not convinced that it's all about Antiochus. Part 5 is where the Herod portion begins.

 

[Exegesis]

The interpretation for 'tidings from the east' caught my attention:

Daniel 11:44 "But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many."

When you think of Herod, and you think of news coming from the east, what comes to mind? This news enraged him and he went and destroyed many.

Who can tell me what the news from the east was, and who told him said news?

 

[Exegesis]

Meditate on this famous verse for a moment:

Daniel 9:26 "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

Focus on these words and phrases:

• Messiah
• the prince
• the end thereof shall be with a flood

Now, look at this verse:

Daniel 11:22 "And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant."

Do we have a match?

• prince of the covenant
• overflown and broken with a flood

Is this really about Antiochus, or is it referring to a later time during the Crucifixion and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD?

Here are some other translations:

Daniel 11:22

Contemporary English Version
"Then he will destroy armies and remove God's chosen high priest."

GOD'S WORD® Translation
"He will overwhelm large forces and defeat them, including the prince of the promise."

Good News Translation
"Anyone who opposes him, even God's High Priest, will be swept away and wiped out."

Things that make you go hmmmm.

 

[Randy Kluth]

*DISCLAIMER* - If you believe that the phrase 'time of the end' in Daniel 11:40 is referring to the future, then this thread is not for you.

I believe in this context the "time of the end" refers to the end of a particular period of prophecy, such as the time of a particular reign. In this context, "time of the end" is the end of an era that was fulfilled some time in the ancient past, and is not an eschatological prophecy.

This is more of a 'Preterist' perspective.

The belief that certain prophecies were fulfilled in the time of Christ's earthly ministry is not, strictly, "Preterism." Prophecies always have a time when they are fulfilled, whether in current history or at the end of the age. When we were told that Jesus would come in to Jerusalem riding on a donkey, it was fulfilled at Jesus' 1st Coming, and cannot be called "Preterism." When the Olivet Discourse prophesied that Jerusalem and the Temple would fall in Jesus' generation, it was fulfilled in 70 AD, but cannot be called "Preterism."

The fact Preterists view the Olivet Discourse as being fulfilled in the time surrounding Jesus' 1st Coming does not make the view as such strictly a "Preterist interpretation." The early Church Fathers saw the Abomination of Desolation as the event in which the Roman Army surrounded Jerusalem, and destroyed both the city and the sanctuary (Dan 9.26-27). This is not "Preterism," since Preterism did not even exist in the time of the early Church Fathers. Rather, this is the Olivet Discourse as being interpreted, properly, as prophecy fulfilled in ancient history.

The idea that nearly *all* of biblical prophecy was fulfillled at Jesus' 1st Coming is "Preterism" properly. But there is no easy term to describe the Olivet Discourse being fulfilled largely at Jesus' 1st Coming without it appearing to be "Preterism" as many Futurists see it today.

I found these sets of videos that interprets the later verses of Daniel 11 as pointing to King Herod and his dynasty. I'm going to post them here for those of you that are not convinced that it's all about Antiochus.

I've had extensive arguments about whether Dan 11 refers to Herod or to Antiochus (or even to Antichrist) in its latter portions. I'm convinced it refers to Antiochus 4.

 

[Exegesis]

I believe in this context the "time of the end" refers to the end of a particular period of prophecy, such as the time of a particular reign. In this context, "time of the end" is the end of an era that was fulfilled some time in the ancient past, and is not an eschatological prophecy.

The belief that certain prophecies were fulfilled in the time of Christ's earthly ministry is not, strictly, "Preterism." Prophecies always have a time when they are fulfilled, whether in current history or at the end of the age. When we were told that Jesus would come in to Jerusalem riding on a donkey, it was fulfilled at Jesus' 1st Coming, and cannot be called "Preterism." When the Olivet Discourse prophesied that Jerusalem and the Temple would fall in Jesus' generation, it was fulfilled in 70 AD, but cannot be called "Preterism."

The fact Preterists view the Olivet Discourse as being fulfilled in the time surrounding Jesus' 1st Coming does not make the view as such strictly a "Preterist interpretation." The early Church Fathers saw the Abomination of Desolation as the event in which the Roman Army surrounded Jerusalem, and destroyed both the city and the sanctuary (Dan 9.26-27). This is not "Preterism," since Preterism did not even exist in the time of the early Church Fathers. Rather, this is the Olivet Discourse as being interpreted, properly, as prophecy fulfilled in ancient history.

The idea that nearly *all* of biblical prophecy was fulfillled at Jesus' 1st Coming is "Preterism" properly. But there is no easy term to describe the Olivet Discourse being fulfilled largely at Jesus' 1st Coming without it appearing to be "Preterism" as many Futurists see it today.

I've had extensive arguments about whether Dan 11 refers to Herod or to Antiochus (or even to Antichrist) in its latter portions. I'm convinced it refers to Antiochus 4.

Informative post @Randy Kluth . I appreciate it.

 

[Exegesis]

I've had extensive arguments about whether Dan 11 refers to Herod or to Antiochus (or even to Antichrist) in its latter portions. I'm convinced it refers to Antiochus 4.

Have you come to any conclusions on who these three kings are in these verses? Note that they all use the phrase 'do according to his will'.:

Daniel 11:3 "And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will."

Daniel 11:16 "But he that cometh against him shall do according to his own will, and none shall stand before him: and he shall stand in the glorious land, which by his hand shall be consumed."

Daniel 11:36 "And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done."

If yes, then which historical figures would you attribute them to? Thanks.

 

[Exegesis]

Who honored the 'God of forces/fortresses/strongholds'?

Herod?

Who was this god? Jupiter?

Daniel 11:38 "But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things."

​

Erected a Roman Golden Eagle at the Temple of God eh? Such blasphemy. What an abomination...

​

 

[Exegesis]

Erected a Roman Golden Eagle at the Temple of God eh? Such blasphemy. What an abomination...

Leviticus 11:13 "And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,"

Things that make you go hmmmm.

 

[Exegesis]

Who honored the 'God of forces/fortresses/strongholds'?

Who was this god? Jupiter?

​

 

[Randy Kluth]

Have you come to any conclusions on who these three kings are in these verses? Note that they all use the phrase 'do according to his will'.:



If yes, then which historical figures would you attribute them to? Thanks.

J. Barton Payne's "Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy" ....

Daniel 11:3 "And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will."

Daniel 23. Dan 8:8b, 22; 11:4: ...Fulfillment: after Alexander's death in 323 and the eventual fall of his leading general Antigonus in 301, the empire divided into some four major areas, controlled by Greek generals: Macedonia under Cassander, Asia Minor under Lysimachus, Shyria and eastward under Seleucus, and Egypt under Ptolemy."

Daniel 11:16 "But he that cometh against him shall do according to his own will, and none shall stand before him: and he shall stand in the glorious land, which by his hand shall be consumed."

Daniel 48. Dan 11:13-17: ...Fulfillment: as in Zech 11:6, suffering for the land under the conflicting Greek kings. For Ptolemy's general Scopas retook Palestine in 2000 and wasted Jerusalem. Daniel's prophecy continues, vs. 16-17, "The king of the north shall take a well-fortified city"--perhaps Gaza in 201; but the time sequence favors Sidon, where Scopas surrendered, 198, after his defeat at Paneas--"and he shall stand in the glorious land (Palestine), and he shall give him (i.e. to Ptolmy) the daughter of women (Cleopatra, the daughter of Antiochus), but she shall not be for him": she turned against her father in favor of Ptolemy.

Daniel 11:36 "And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done."

Daniel 26. Dan 8:11-12; 11:30b-32a, 36-39; 12:11b: ...Fulfillment: Antiochus"profaning of the temple and forbidding the regular sacrifices, sabbath observances, etc., December, 168, to December, 165, 1 Macc 1:45-46, as he sought to unify his empire under Hellenistic culture; cf. 11 Macc 4:7-17. Montgomery comments on the prediction of his hnonoring "a god whom his fathers knew not: (Dan 11:38), noting:
Apollo, the historic deity of the dynasty, disappeared almost entirely from the Seleucid coinage after the reign of Epiphanes, being replaced by Zeus... Also, "the darling of women":...we think of some attempt of the king to control or suppress that lascivious cult, in line with his unification of religion... This replacement of gods, so contrary to antique sentiment, may suffice to explain...

 

[TribulationSigns]

This is more of a 'Preterist' perspective.

Looks like more Preterist theories nonsense.

I found these sets of videos that interprets the later verses of Daniel 11 as pointing to King Herod and his dynasty.

King Herod is an actor in Daniel 11?! Just because the building project called "Herod's Temple," to "magnifies himself"? It is because of his actions toward his family members, religious leaders, and Jews? And he was troubled by the "tidings from the East"? And you're still obsessed with Antiochus?! All of these are called the time of the end?

 

[Exegesis]

Sorry @TribulationSigns . It's hard for me to take you seriously the way you mock and act so childish whenever you post in one of my threads.

You literally proved nothing with your post other than you seem to like to pander to the simpletons on this website with your Idiocracy style of debating, ad hominem blathering and silly memes.

Any serious researcher knows that the phrase 'time of the end', in the context of Daniel, could refer to the siege of 70AD. This is Bible 101 stuff.

​

What part of...

...this thread is not for you.

...did you not understand? Thanks for bumping the thread I guess.

@Randy Kluth on the other hand has demonstrated critical thinking skills by posting scholarly research and references. I will be reviewing them over the next few days.

 

[Exegesis]

Daniel 11:3 "And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will."

Daniel 23. Dan 8:8b, 22; 11:4: ...Fulfillment: after Alexander's death in 323 and the eventual fall of his leading general Antigonus in 301, the empire divided into some four major areas, controlled by Greek generals: Macedonia under Cassander, Asia Minor under Lysimachus, Shyria and eastward under Seleucus, and Egypt under Ptolemy."

Yep, this seems to check out. A common interpretation is that 11:2 is referring to Alexander the Great. I will go with that for now.

 

[Exegesis]

Diadochi​

The Diadochi[a] were the rival generals, families, and friends of Alexander the Great who fought for control over his empire after his death in 323 BC. The Wars of the Diadochi mark the beginning of the Hellenistic period from the Mediterranean Sea to the Indus River Valley.

The most notable Diadochi include Ptolemy, Antigonus, Cassander, and Seleucus as the last remaining at the end of the Wars of the Successors, ruling in Egypt, Asia-Minor, Macedon and Persia respectively, all forging dynasties lasting several centuries.

​

Diadochi - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[TribulationSigns]

Sorry @TribulationSigns . It's hard for me to take you seriously the way you mock and act so childish whenever you post in one of my threads.

Poor baby.

You literally proved nothing with your post other than you seem to like to pander to the simpletons on this website with your Idiocracy style of debating, ad hominem blathering and silly memes.

And you have not refuted anything I say anyway. Just complained about the tone of my response, eh?

...did you not understand? Thanks for bumping the thread I guess.

LOL. Time of the End has nothing to do with your pipe dream of 70AD theories. Here is a long lesson for you, "Exegesis"

In Scripture "the time of the end," as well as "the last days," refers to the whole New Testament period. That is when knowledge was increased and when the servants of God were sent to "go forth" (to and fro) with the gospel to the whole earth. It started with Christ's death and resurrection after He witnessed to the nation of Israel, and it ends with his triumphant return on the clouds of glory. I believe that this is the time of the increase in knowledge and when many (the elect) run to and fro or "go forth" with the power of the Revelation of God, through the Holy Spirit poured out at Pentecost. This refers to the great knowledge through the Holy Spirit that has been given to us and signified by the sign at Pentecost.

Acts 2:14-21

• "But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
• For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
• But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
• And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
• And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
• And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
• The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
• And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

This is the uncovering of the seal on the book, the revelation of the Holy Spirit, the time when His servants will dream dreams and have visions, the time when we understand we have one Priest in Christ where we are all made kings and priests unto God through Him. This is the time when we receive the knowledge to understand that we are now all Kings and Priests unto him. Thus we prophesy, see visions, dream dreams, and interpret mysteries because knowledge of the word has increased. The mystery of God kept secret for so long was uncovered by Christ, yet progressively revealed to us in His own time. The whole New Testament period is the time when "that which was kept a mystery or secret" from the beginning, would be revealed by Christ sending the Holy Spirit to enlighten all His servants. When Christ sent the comforter to us, He began that revelation to increase knowledge in the earth of Him, and I believe it increases more as we near the end of all things. The latter days when Christ gives us a mouth and words of fire where none can gainsay or resist.

Romans 16:25-26

• "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
• But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:"

The mystery is that Israel would be made up of Jews and Gentiles, and according to the gospel revealed in the faith of Christ. Note in Daniel, he is told to shut up the words and seal the book until the time of the end, meaning it was not meant to be understood until that time. While the apostle John is told not to seal up the visions of the book God had given him, meaning it was now to be revealed. That's why it is called the book of the Apocalypse (uncovering), or revealing the secrets of the knowledge that was before kept secret.

Revelation 22:6

• "And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done."

The Lord sent His Messenger to reveal the mystery of what things would shortly be done. And with Christ's death and resurrection, that revelation started and it is revealed to the election of the Israel of God, while the nation of Israel (in part) is blinded to it.

Daniel 12:4

• "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."

God's messenger Daniel was told to keep this a mystery until the time of the end when Christ would come, while after Christ came God's messenger John was told not to keep the things a mystery, but to reveal these things to the servants of God. This necessarily would increase the knowledge that was before restricted. Revelation is given in cryptic symbolism and parabolic imagery so that the wicked might be confounded by its mystery. By contrast, the election is given "of the Spirit" to understand these mysteries or secrets. A principle God explained plainly in places like Matthew 13:

Matthew 13:10-11

• "And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
• He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."

People often ask me, why did God make the book of Revelation so difficult to understand. My answer is always because it is revealed only to those who hold the word of God as their ultimate authority in interpretations, meaning interpretations belong to God (Genesis 41:15-16; 40:8 ). It is the few who want to do that. Those who seek worldly, carnal, and extrabiblical interpretations, are confounded by the symbolism. While those who interpret by scripture alone (Sola Scriptura) through the Spirit of Christ, have these truths revealed to them. These are those called of God to receive truth, while others refuse the truth presented by God in love. Visa'vis, even as Daniel in the previous verse 3 prophesied in the symbolism of us being "as" stars. Something Revelation also carries through in that book.

(Continue to next post)

 

[TribulationSigns]

(Contiuned from previous post)

Daniel 12:3

• "And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."

We receive the knowledge in Christ Jesus that we are these stars of heaven. Israel were these stars of heaven that were cast down from the kingdom (Revelation 12) representation. It was a mystery not known in Daniel's time, but is now made manifest in the Revelation or uncovering of the mystery of the true nature of Israel, the chosen people of God. That is how knowledge is being increased. The nation of Israel that rejected Christ are, like the falling stones, as the fallen stars, or the stars cast down from heaven (Revelation 12) that they no longer be the Kingdom of heaven on earth representation. For example, the kingdom of heaven representation where they are as stars there is taken from them and given to the New Testament church. Hello?! That same knowledge of this mystery that is revealed in Revelation 12:4 of the stars cast down from heaven is reiterated in Christ's parable of the Vinyard and the kingdom taken from those who rejected its true nature. Like the fallen stars, the fallen stones also represent people!

Matthew 21:42-43

• "Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
• Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

All these things are part of the Revelation, the revealing of the mystery/secret in the last days, which encompasses the whole New Testament era. Daniel's prophecy referred to a distant time when Christ would come and bring that Revelation. Daniel's prophesy was fulfilled in Christ going away and sending the comforter/consoler that reveals this mystery and shows us all things that are to come.

John 16:13-15

• "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
• He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
• All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you."

Just as we read in Revelation that the Spirit was come to show John things that were to come, and God reiterated it was to show His servants things that were to come. This is the mystery being revealed, and the knowledge of God's plans being revealed. To one revealed today, to another revealed 2 years ago, and to another revealed tomorrow. It shows us that the stars falling and the moon not giving her light "IS" the messengers of the church (Revelation 2:5), not physical stars falling to earth! Showing us that the great city Babylon falling is the unfaithful church in captivity, not the world system!! Showing us that the two witnesses of Revelation being killed are the faithful messengers establishing truth (Deuteronomy 19:15) within that church, not Elijah and Moses Showing us that the famine is of hearing the word of God, not starvation in Africa. Or that the great harlot decked out like kingdom royalty is actually the false church who has sold herself for gain, and not worldwide economics!! ...And so on and so forth! The Mystery is revealed when knowledge is increased. Israel, to whom Daniel prophesied with premature zeal, sought after self-righteousness, physical freedom from the Roman government, and signs of the predicted messiah come to set them free from the rule of the Romans, but received none of it. Because their methodology of interpretation was flawed. Daniel's prophecy remained sealed up to them (in part). Because the language of Scripture was designed so that only those who received the Spirit of truth by grace, could have this knowledge.

Lastly, Daniel's prophecy of those running to and fro is not referring to any modern rapidity of locomotion, as some think, nor to Christian missionaries going about to preach the Gospel to the world at large [BARNES], which the context scarcely admits; but, whereas now but few care for this prophecy of God, "at the time of the end," that is, near its fulfillment, "many shall run to and fro," that is, scrutinize it, running through every page. Compare Hab 2:2 [CALVIN]: it is thereby that "the knowledge (namely, of God's purposes as revealed in prophecy) shall be increased." This is probably now being fulfilled.

Obviously, based on the Scripture above, the time of the end has nothing to do with 70AD like you think!

Selah!

 

[Randy Kluth]

LOL. Time of the End has nothing to do with your pipe dream of 70AD theories. Here is a long lesson for you, "Exegesis"

In Scripture "the time of the end," as well as "the last days," refers to the whole New Testament period.

What you should realize is that "time of the end" can have more than one meaning. It depends on context. That is a standard rule of interpretation, to determine the meaning of a word or phrase by its *context.*

 

[Exegesis]

Poor baby.

Putting you on ignore.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Putting you on ignore.

Out of my entire post—where I thoroughly refuted your interpretation of the "time of the end" -- you chose to get offended by the very first one-liner rather than respond with a proper biblical refutation?

LOL.

That’s fine. Your future posts will still be refuted by me, sooner or later, for all to see, whether you read it or not.

 

[Exegesis]

This one is confusing:

Daniel 11:16 "But he that cometh against him shall do according to his own will, and none shall stand before him: and he shall stand in the glorious land, which by his hand shall be consumed."

According to many scholars, the one mentioned above is Antiochus IV Epiphanes:

The invader will do as he pleases
This phrase suggests a powerful and unchecked force, often interpreted as a king or ruler with significant authority. Historically, this is seen as a reference to Antiochus IV Epiphanes, a Seleucid king known for his aggressive expansion and persecution of the Jewish people. His actions were largely unopposed, reflecting the prophecy's assertion of doing as he pleases. This aligns with the broader theme in Daniel of earthly powers rising and falling under divine sovereignty.

Daniel 11:16 - Kings of the South and North

The invader will do as he pleases, and no one will stand against him. He will establish himself in the Beautiful Land, with destruction in his hand.

biblehub.com

I don't see him mentioned in your post:

Daniel 48. Dan 11:13-17: ...Fulfillment: as in Zech 11:6, suffering for the land under the conflicting Greek kings. For Ptolemy's general Scopas retook Palestine in 2000 and wasted Jerusalem. Daniel's prophecy continues, vs. 16-17, "The king of the north shall take a well-fortified city"--perhaps Gaza in 201; but the time sequence favors Sidon, where Scopas surrendered, 198, after his defeat at Paneas--"and he shall stand in the glorious land (Palestine), and he shall give him (i.e. to Ptolmy) the daughter of women (Cleopatra, the daughter of Antiochus), but she shall not be for him": she turned against her father in favor of Ptolemy.

What am I missing?

Again, we see Antiochus IV Epiphanes as being 'widely interpreted' for Daniel 11:16:

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If we keep going with the verses, we see that this figure comes to an end here:

Daniel 11:19 "Then he shall turn his face toward the fort of his own land: but he shall stumble and fall, and not be found."

So now, Antiochus IV Epiphanes is dead. A new person arrives after him:

Daniel 11:20 "Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes in the glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in anger, nor in battle."

That person is now dead as well. Next we have this person:

Daniel 11:21 "And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries."

This obviously cannot be Antiochus IV Epiphanes, yet the scholars say it is:

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Can anyone here make sense of this?