Does God love the angels and does God want the angels to love him?

[Matthias]

I think most people who believe God exists would say without hesitation that God loves human beings and God wants human beings to love him. God doesn’t force us to love him.

The question I would like to ask in this thread is: Does God love the angels and does God want the angels to love him?

Proposition: Genuine love involves a choice.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings Matthias,

The question I would like to ask in this thread is: Does God love the angels and does God want the angels to love him?

I find that an unusual question. Perhaps it reflects your opinion that there are evil angels. I consider that there is perfect harmony between the Angels and God the Father and his son, the Lord Jesus Christ and this is cemented with a very strong bond of love. The same bond of love exists now between the faithful and God and Jesus, and this love will be fully realised when the faithful are resurrected and made equal to the Angels.

Proposition: Genuine love involves a choice.

Yes, but the overriding sentiment is based upon the reality of who and what God is. His character and his mercy and his purpose.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Matthias]

Greetings Matthias,

I find that an unusual question.

Excellent. That’s the feedback I was looking for and hoping to find. I haven’t spent a great amount of time speaking with people who don’t believe in the existence of rebellious angels. It’s a common argument that man must have free will in order to love God. This is the first time it has crossed my mind to ask anyone the question in regard to the angels.

Perhaps it reflects your opinion that there are evil angels. I consider that there is perfect harmony between the Angels and God the Father and his son, the Lord Jesus Christ and this is cemented with a very strong bond of love. The same bond of love exists now between the faithful and God and Jesus, and this love will be fully realised when the faithful are resurrected and made equal to the Angels.

I agree with much of that. But if the angels don’t have free will then they are automatons. Is it within your theological framework to agree that the angels do have free will?

If an angel has free will then wouldn’t there at least exist the possibility that some number of them would choose not to love God?

Yes, but the overriding sentiment is based upon the reality of who and what God is. His character and his mercy and his purpose.

Kind regards
Trevor

That hasn’t kept a large number of human beings from rejecting his love and not loving him in return. Is there not at least the possibility that the same is true with angels?

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Matthias,

I agree with much of that. But if the angels don’t have free will then they are automatons. Is it within your theological framework to agree that the angels do have free will?

Yes, very much they have free will, and their response is based upon their own historically developed character, a history which is not narrated to us directly, except to say that they have, or have had a knowledge of good and evil, and I assume that this had been by a process of trial and experience and passing through this to the gift of immortality. Sin was introduced by Adam's wrong choice, not by a previous rebellion in heaven.

If an angel has free will then wouldn’t there at least exist the possibility that some number of them would choose not to love God?

I do not accept evil angels, and I consider that after immortality any previous motivation, similar to our lusts of the flesh, have been overcome. The parallel will be with the faithful after their change to immortality. There will be no rebellion amongst the faithful after they have been made immortal, but they will still have free wills, because they will appreciate all that God is, God's love, character, mercy and his purpose. Is your estimation of Angels, that they are deficient of genuine Divine character? Are some as stupid as your 2000 demons?

That hasn’t kept a large number of human beings from rejecting his love and not loving him in return. Is there not at least the possibility that the same is true with angels?

Perhaps this is another theme, that God in his wisdom has hid these things from the supposed "wise and prudent" and revealed them unto babes Matthew 11:25-30.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TLHKAJ]

Excellent. That’s the feedback I was looking for and hoping to find. I haven’t spent a great amount of time speaking with people who don’t believe in the existence of rebellious angels. It’s a common argument that man must have free will in order to love God. This is the first time it has crossed my mind to ask anyone the question in regard to the angels

Precisely. Angels have free will. Thus, God knows those who love Him from those who have rebelled.

 

[Matthias]

Greetings again Matthias,

Yes, very much they have free will, and their response is based upon their own historically developed character, a history which is not narrated to us directly, except to say that they have, or have had a knowledge of good and evil, and I assume that this had been by a process of trial and experience and passing through this to the gift of immortality.

That’s a point of agreement for us.

Sin was introduced by Adam's wrong choice, not by a previous rebellion in heaven.

Man’s sin was introduced by Eve’s having been deceived and Adam’s wrong choice.

There is no room for angel’s with free will to sin in your position. There is in mine.

I do not accept evil angels …

All rebellion against God - whether by angels or by man - is evil. I see both happening in scripture. You see only one - man.

… and I consider that after immortality any previous motivation, similar to our lusts of the flesh, have been overcome. The parallel will be with the faithful after their change to immortality. There will be no rebellion amongst the faithful after they have been made immortal, but they will still have free wills, because they will appreciate all that God is, God's love, character, mercy and his purpose.

This goes back to the question of whether or not angels are immortal. God alone inherently possesses immortality. Others have to receive immortality from God.

Is your estimation of Angels, that they are deficient of genuine Divine character?

I believe that they are to some extent created in the image of God.

Are some as stupid as your 2000 demons?

I don’t know how demons there are but I would say many more than 2,000.

Perhaps this is another theme, that God in his wisdom has hid these things from the supposed "wise and prudent" and revealed them unto babes Matthew 11:25-30.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Matthias]

Precisely. Angels have free will. Thus, God knows those who love Him from those who have rebelled.

I agree. The Christadelphians (among others) don’t believe in the existence of rebellious / fallen angels. The devil and the demons, they believe, are not real personalities.

Their mantra - if it’s fair to call it that - is “no origin story = not real”.

Free will guarantees at least the possibility of rebellion (which I see described in regard to man and angels in scripture; the Christadelphians don’t see angels described in this manner in scripture) but doesn’t require it.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I think most people who believe God exists would say without hesitation that God loves human beings and God wants human beings to love him. God doesn’t force us to love him.

The question I would like to ask in this thread is: Does God love the angels and does God want the angels to love him?

Proposition: Genuine love involves a choice.

“Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.” Matt 18:10

Another thing you can correct the Master on when he returns.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Matthias,

Man’s sin was introduced by Eve’s having been deceived and Adam’s wrong choice.
There is no room for angel’s with free will to sin in your position. There is in mine.
All rebellion against God - whether by angels or by man - is evil. I see both happening in scripture. You see only one - man.

It is also very relevant that the Genesis narrative does not allow the introduction of sin to be as a result of a previous rebellion by Angels. Perhaps you have a different view and also differ on the actual role of the serpent in Genesis 3:1.

This goes back to the question of whether or not angels are immortal. God alone inherently possesses immortality. Others have to receive immortality from God.

Yes, I consider that the Angels have been granted immortality, and the faithful will also be given immortality, so that in the resurrection they are equal with the Angels Luke 20:34-36.

I believe that they are to some extent created in the image of God.

Yes, and I believe that the Angels also participated in the creation of man in their image and after their likeness Genesis 1:26-27.

I don’t know how demons there are but I would say many more than 2,000.

I was alluding to the Gadarenes incident and the man labelled Legion, which you suggested in another thread that he was possessed by 2000 demons.

Their mantra - if it’s fair to call it that - is “no origin story = not real”.

Perhaps one more level, no reconciling the fallen Angels concept with the actual narrative revealed in Genesis chapters 1-3. The narrative is complete within itself. Possibly the fallen Angel concept is based upon a misunderstanding of Isaiah 14, Ezekiel 28 and Revelation 12.

I am interested in your opinion from our Unitarian perspective, of who was the individual that interviewed Adam and Eve after their transgression. I believe that it was an Angel, bearing the Yahweh Name, and this did not need to be Michael or Gabriel. I believe that the Angels were very active in the creation process and also very active in the Garden educating Adam and Eve.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Matthias]

Greetings again Matthias,

It is also very relevant that the Genesis narrative does not allow the introduction of sin to be as a result of a previous rebellion by Angels. Perhaps you have a different view and also differ on the actual role of the serpent in Genesis 3:1.

The narrative doesn’t rule out “the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan”( Rev. 20:2) being a rebellious angel. His role is the tempter.

Yes, I consider that the Angels have been granted immortality, and the faithful will also be given immortality, so that in the resurrection they are equal with the Angels Luke 20:34-36.

We have two differences here. I don’t believe that all angels have been granted immortality and I believe that immortalized man will not be equal with the angels but superior to them. The angels are servants of God and servants of man.

Yes, and I believe that the Angels also participated in the creation of man in their image and after their likeness Genesis 1:26-27.

I don’t believe man is created in the image of angels.

I was alluding to the Gadarenes incident and the man labelled Legion, which you suggested in another thread that he was possessed by 2000 demons.

I understood that is what you were referring to. Having already addressed the incident recorded in Mark 5-13 in the other thread, I took the opportunity to convey to you that there are many more than just 2,000 demons. The incident, in other words, did not involve all of the demons which exist; only the number of demons who were involved with this particular man.

Perhaps one more level, no reconciling the fallen Angels concept with the actual narrative revealed in Genesis chapters 1-3. The narrative is complete within itself.

Your view doesn’t allow scripture (and extra-biblical Jewish sources) to provide additional information regarding the incident. Mine does.

Possibly the fallen Angel concept is based upon a misunderstanding of Isaiah 14, Ezekiel 28 and Revelation 12.

The rebellious / fallen angel concept isn’t a misunderstanding of scripture.

I am interested in your opinion from our Unitarian perspective, of who was the individual that interviewed Adam and Eve after their transgression. I believe that it was an Angel, bearing the Yahweh Name, and this did not need to be Michael or Gabriel.

I don’t see Adam and Eve being interviewed by anyone. What I presume is that they passed the story down orally to and through their descendants until such time as it was written in Genesis.

I believe that the Angels were very active in the creation process and also very active in the Garden educating Adam and Eve.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Matthias]

From my X / Twitter “Following” feed this morning -

“God is present everywhere, but not everybody is open to the love of God.”

(Frank Turek)

https://x.com/drfrankturek/status/1953063542581538972?s=61

Angels have free will. If some of the angels have rebelled against God - some, as we have seen and will continue to see, don’t believe that any angels have - then those angels have willfully chosen not to be open to the love of God.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Angels have free will. If some of the angels have rebelled against God - some, as we have seen and will continue to see, don’t believe that any angels have - then those angels have willfully chosen not to be open to the love of God.

As Psalm 103:20 says, “Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, obeying the voice of his word.”

Nowhere in the Bible are we taught angels can choose between Good & Evil only that they obey the Word of God always.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Matthias,

I believe that immortalized man will not be equal with the angels but superior to them. The angels are servants of God and servants of man.

They serve man in the present era on behalf of God, but are at present much superior to man and will be equal during the Kingdom as their role will be complete and they will hand over the administration of the nations to Jesus and the faithful for the 1000 years.

I don’t believe man is created in the image of angels.

I believe that Genesis 1:26-27 teaches this and that David confirms this in his summary/commentary of Genesis 1:26-27 in Psalm 8:4-6.

Your view doesn’t allow scripture (and extra-biblical Jewish sources) to provide additional information regarding the incident. Mine does.
The rebellious / fallen angel concept isn’t a misunderstanding of scripture.

I do not put any weight on extra biblical Jewish sources and have a different understanding of scripture. Not sure how you understand Isaiah 14, Ezekiel 28 and Revelation 12, the King of Babylon, King of Tyre and the overthrow of the Pagan Roman Empire by Constantine.

I don’t see Adam and Eve being interviewed by anyone. What I presume is that they passed the story down orally to and through their descendants until such time as it was written in Genesis.

I believe that the record in Genesis is not a tradition, but the inspired record of what occurred. I believe that the Yahweh Angel walked in the Garden when Adam and Eve hid themselves, most probably an event that occurred often, that the Angels interacted with Adam and Eve. The Angel then interviewed both Adam and Eve and passed judgement and escorted them out of the Garden, and placed Angels acting the role of Cherubim guarding the entrance to the Garden. The "us" of Genesis 3 is this Yahweh Angel as spokesman companied with other Angels.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[marks]

I think most people who believe God exists would say without hesitation that God loves human beings and God wants human beings to love him. God doesn’t force us to love him.

The question I would like to ask in this thread is: Does God love the angels and does God want the angels to love him?

Proposition: Genuine love involves a choice.

Where Scripture is silent . . .

 

[Matthias]

Greetings again Matthias,

They serve man in the present era on behalf of God, but are at present much superior to man…

I agree.

… and will be equal during the Kingdom as their role will be complete and they will hand over the administration of the nations to Jesus and the faithful for the 1000 years.

I don’t agree with that. My understanding is that they will serve God, the Messiah, and the family of God forever.

I believe that Genesis 1:26-27 teaches this and that David confirms this in his summary/commentary of Genesis 1:26-27 in Psalm 8:4-6.

Given what you’ve said, I disagree with your understanding of the passages.

I do not put any weight on extra biblical Jewish sources …

I do. The influence of them on the NT writers is, in my view, well established in biblical sxholarship.

… and have a different understanding of scripture.

Yes.

Not sure how you understand Isaiah 14, Ezekiel 28 and Revelation 12, the King of Babylon, King of Tyre and the overthrow of the Pagan Roman Empire by Constantine.

That covers a lot of ground. Suffice it to say here that I see much of it differently than you do.

I believe that the record in Genesis is not a tradition, but the inspired record of what occurred.

I believe it is an accurate record of what occurred.

I believe that the Yahweh Angel walked in the Garden when Adam and Eve hid themselves, most probably an event that occurred often, that the Angels interacted with Adam and Eve. The Angel then interviewed both Adam and Eve and passed judgement and escorted them out of the Garden, and placed Angels acting the role of Cherubim guarding the entrance to the Garden. The "us" of Genesis 3 is this Yahweh Angel as spokesman companied with other Angels.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Hiddenthings]

Proposition: Genuine love involves a choice.

The angels in the Garden understood what an impossibility was -

Genesis 3:22 “And the LORD God said, ‘Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—’”

No being in existence who possesses divine life, that is, the holy and undefiled nature of God has ever sinned in that nature. This is because such a nature is inherently holy, pure and divine and not of the earth, earthy.

This is the very premise of the reward Christ offers the Elect "like the angels"

Once a person truly possesses the divine nature, loving and being loved becomes no longer a matter of choice. Otherwise, the indwelling of God in man and His being all in all would stand in direct contrast to a sinful, corrupt nature.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Matthias,

I don’t agree with that. My understanding is that they will serve God, the Messiah, and the family of God forever.

I am not sure of your use of the word "serve" here, especially if you also speak of it as status in relationship with the faithful during the Kingdom. I believe that the Angels will certainly interact with the faithful, but the responsibility of the administration of the Kingdom will be conducted by Jesus and the faithful:
Hebrews 2:5 (KJV): For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
This is part of the theme of the position of Jesus, in comparison to various aspects and here the comparison with the Angels and the writer uses Psalm 8 to expound and expand on this aspect.

Given what you’ve said, I disagree with your understanding of the passages.

I have a very strong conviction of the detail of Psalm 8 and also its NT exposition.

I do. The influence of them on the NT writers is, in my view, well established in biblical scholarship.

This is very much outside my area of learning and I prefer to avoid the confusion that can be generated by the many "scholastic" opinions.

That covers a lot of ground. Suffice it to say here that I see much of it differently than you do.

This may indicate our different beliefs and environment.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Matthias]

Greetings again Matthias,

I am not sure of your use of the word "serve" here, especially if you also speak of it as status in relationship with the faithful during the Kingdom. I believe that the Angels will certainly interact with the faithful, but the responsibility of the administration of the Kingdom will be conducted by Jesus and the faithful:
Hebrews 2:5 (KJV): For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
This is part of the theme of the position of Jesus, in comparison to various aspects and here the comparison with the Angels and the writer uses Psalm 8 to expound and expand on this aspect.

God is above the angels. The resurrected Messiah is above the angels. The immortalized brethren of Messiah will be above the angels. It is the Messiah and his brethren who will rule the world in the age to come.

I have a very strong conviction of the detail of Psalm 8 and also its NT exposition.

This is very much outside my area of learning and I prefer to avoid the confusion that can be generated by the many "scholastic" opinions.

This may indicate our different beliefs and environment.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Matthias,

God is above the angels. The resurrected Messiah is above the angels. The immortalized brethren of Messiah will be above the angels. It is the Messiah and his brethren who will rule the world in the age to come.

God is above the angels. Obviously.
The resurrected Messiah is above the angels. Yes.
The immortalized brethren of Messiah will be above the angels. I believe that they will be equal to the Angels. Do you have any scriptural basis for this view? Are they in some way an inferior race than humans and in what area and to what degree? Will each of us be superior to Michael and Gabriel who stand in the presence of God? I believe that there is a gradation of excellence, and this will be true of the faithful in the Kingdom and also the status with the Angels now.
It is the Messiah and his brethren who will rule the world in the age to come. Agree. Yes, this earth.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Matthias]

Greetings again Matthias,

God is above the angels. Obviously.
The resurrected Messiah is above the angels. Yes.
The immortalized brethren of Messiah will be above the angels. I believe that they will be equal to the Angels. Do you have any scriptural basis for this view? Are they in some way an inferior race than humans and in what area and to what degree? Will each of us be superior to Michael and Gabriel who stand in the presence of God? I believe that there is a gradation of excellence, and this will be true of the faithful in the Kingdom and also the status with the Angels now.
It is the Messiah and his brethren who will rule the world in the age to come. Agree. Yes, this earth.

Kind regards
Trevor

1 Corinthians 6:3 comes to mind.