Does the Bible teach conscious torment over an infinite period of time?

[TonyChanYT]

What does eternal punishment mean?

On the one hand, Revelation 14:

10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

It seems strange that the Lamb should be present to watch them being tormented/tortured forever and ever.

11And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Revelation 20:

10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The above are pretty strong passages to support forever torment.

On the other hand, Revelation 21:

8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Does second death imply conscious torment over an infinite period of time?

Maybe not, Isaiah 26:

10If favor is shown to the wicked, he does not learn righteousness; in the land of uprightness he deals corruptly and does not see the majesty of the LORD.

14 They are now dead, they live no more; their spirits do not rise. You punished them and brought them to ruin; you wiped out all memory of them.

Matthew 10:

28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna]."

Only God is immortal. Believers possess immortality because they have the Paraclete. Non-believers do not have the Paraclete. They are not immortal, 1 Corinthians 15:

53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

Does hell imply conscious torment over an infinite period of time?

Many Christians today think so. I apply first-order logic to analyze Bible verses. To me, eternal conscious torment isn't a 100% sure thing. It has never been at any time in church history. There have always been some other views such as annihilationism. Origen was a Universalist. Further, it is hard to find verses from the Hebrew Scripture to support eternal conscious torment.

Some Christians argue for conscious torment for a finite period of time. In any case, I'm not the judge of people's eternal destination. I know that Jesus died for all my sins and I have eternal life in Christ.

Whatever will happen to the unbelievers, I rest in God that he will do the right thing—whatever that may be.

See also Eternal punishment vs eternal life.

 

[Randy Kluth]

What does eternal punishment mean?

It is the duration of the sentence rather than continuous torture. Separation from God's Kingdom on earth is eternal, and the punishment is this separation. Another term for the place of punishment is called "Outer Darkness."

We are given very little information on the place of those who are eternally judged largely because it does not concern us, I think. And it could become an inappropriate obsession. The loss of people we know is their matter--not something that should hang us up.

It seems strange that the Lamb should be present to watch them being tormented/tortured forever and ever.

Those who oversee this separation are those who cast the judgment. Only Christ is worthy to judge men eternally. Only Christ can determine which sins merit eternal separation from God.

The above are pretty strong passages to support forever torment.

Burning implies a complete removal of trash, rather than burning living bodies. The torment implies regret rather than intense physical pain. It is, for example, excruciating to hear read to you that you are banned forever from a desirable location. The melancholy will never go away. But it does not mean intense physical pain, such as being burned alive, in my opinion.

Only God is immortal. Believers possess immortality because they have the Paraclete. Non-believers do not have the Paraclete. They are not immortal, 1 Corinthians 15:

That isn't really put that way. We become "immortal" in the biblical sense when we, as saints, obtain eternal bodies that are sinless and inherit an eternal paradise on earth.

The lost who have chosen to remain in their sin will also rise from the dead and live eternally. But they do not have immortal bodies as described for the saints, which are bodies fit for eternal blessing in paradise.

They may be "immortal" in the sense of being indestructible and eternal, but this is not the sense of "immortality" that the Bible bestows upon the righteous in Paradise. "Immortality" carries with it a sense of "blessedness," in the biblical sense, as it is applied to the resurrection bodies of the saints.

Does hell imply conscious torment over an infinite period of time?

The torment is regret and sadness. It is the eternal sadness at having suffered an unrecoverable loss.

Many Christians today think so. I apply first-order logic to analyze Bible verses. To me, eternal conscious torment isn't a 100% sure thing. It has never been at any time in church history. There have always been some other views such as annihilationism. Origen was a Universalist. Further, it is hard to find verses from the Hebrew Scripture to support eternal conscious torment.

Yes, but the more orthodox view among Christians who believe the Bible is that there is "eternal punishment" for the wicked and "eternal blessedness" for the righteous, replete with immortal, resurrected bodies. Those who are raised from the dead among the wicked are separated by some kind of "gap" for eternity, simply because they do not wish to pay the price for living in God's holy presence forever. That price, of course, is loving submission to God's lordship.

Some Christians argue for conscious torment for a finite period of time. In any case, I'm not the judge of people's eternal destination. I know that Jesus died for all my sins and I have eternal life in Christ.

Whatever will happen to the unbelievers, I rest in God that he will do the right thing—whatever that may be.

See also Eternal punishment vs eternal life.

You ask legitimate questions. I've had to treat these questions too. My views are an attempt to be consistent with biblical teaching, as well as looking at it in terms of justice meted out by a perfect and loving God. A holy God cannot give up His lordship, or the entire universe collapses into disorder.

The appropriate eternal judgment is determined by who chooses to accept God's terms for living in His holy presence forever, which is our choice to adopt His love based on submission to Him. In short, those who like God will get Him, just as He is. And those who don't like Him will be eternally separated from Him.

You will see this in every person you ever meet--the like for God or the intense dislike for God. But there is a process by which this choice is determined by trial. And it involves divine patience and forbearance.

There are those who like some benefits of God, but do not really "like God" because of the cost to their own pride and control over their own independent choices. Sometimes they wish to collaborate with God, and at other times they are determined to "do their own thing."

They worship from afar and do not meet the test of qualifying to live in God's holy presence up close. They will be relegated to "Outer Darkness." I do believe there are different levels of "punishment" in Outer Darkness, which means that some experience less loss than others. And I do believe that as much as we know little about it, there will likely be things for the Lost to do for all eternity.

In my view, it may look somewhat like the present earth, with all of its deficiencies. And that's because all men were created to serve God, no matter what choices they make. And they were all created to be, like God, eternal. So they will likely carry out human tasks for fulfillment, albeit without the great pleasure of serving God in His more direct presence.

 

[marks]

Does second death imply conscious torment over an infinite period of time?

Maybe not, Isaiah 26:

Hi Tony,

I suggest you need to look more closely into the Scriptures. In Isaiah 26 you will find two different words for dead appearing in that chapter, the mooth, and the rapha. I suggest you look at all the places "rapha" appears, and compare to how "mooth" appears.

Much love!

 

[Aunty Jane]

What does eternal punishment mean?

A punishment that lasts forever.....but it does not have to be conscious.

On the one hand, Revelation 14:

It seems strange that the Lamb should be present to watch them being tormented/tortured forever and ever.

Revelation 20:

The above are pretty strong passages to support forever torment.

In order to experience torment, one has to be alive and conscious to feel that through their senses.
Does the Bible say that we have an immortal soul that departs from the body at death to experience torment?

Eccl 9:5, 6, 10....Solomon wrote....
“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun. . . . .Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going.”

“Sheol” is the word translated as “grave” in the Jewish Tanakh.
In the Septuagint, “sheol” is the equivalent of “hades” in Greek. So word meanings lost and manipulated by false religious influences have painted a very different picture to what the Bible does.
There is no conscious existence after death.

There is no immortal soul to be tormented in the first place. There is no “spirit” that departs the body at death except for the last breath exhaled. (Psalm 146:4)
Just as Adam began his life with the breath God put into him, so his death would have been the reverse.

On the other hand, Revelation 21:

Does second death imply conscious torment over an infinite period of time?

The second death is eternal death. The first death is the one we inherited from Adam...the one Jesus came to take away. That death is reversible via a resurrection, which is what is taught in scripture. (John 5:28-29)
The second death is permanent. There is no coming back from “Gehenna”.

Matthew 10:

Only God is immortal. Believers possess immortality because they have the Paraclete. Non-believers do not have the Paraclete. They are not immortal, 1 Corinthians 15:

Only the elect are raised to immortal spirit life in heaven....these will be “kings and priests” (Rev 20:6) who with Christ, will rule over earthly subjects, (Rev 21:2-3) bringing the human race back to God by guiding and teaching them so that God’s first purpose for this earth and all creation upon it will be restored. The “former things” must “pass away” to make sure that they never happen again.

Does hell imply conscious torment over an infinite period of time?

“Hell” (hades) is simply the grave, but “Gehenna” means something else....as Jesus referred to this place as somewhere God “destroys both body and soul” (Matt 10:28) ....IOW....the soul or life of a person is eliminated completely. No memory of them will exist, because God has cancelled their right to live among his loyal and faithful ones. (Isaiah 65:17)

In the new world to come only righteous ones will qualify for life. (2 Peter 3:13)
All will return to the way it was meant to be. (Isa 55:11)

 

[TonyChanYT]

What people in hell experience is eternal torment.

Matthew 10:

28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna]."

Only God is immortal. Believers possess immortality because they have the Paraclete. Non-believers do not have the Paraclete. They are not immortal, 1 Corinthians 15:

53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

 

[Scott Downey]

Matthew 10:


Only God is immortal. Believers possess immortality because they have the Paraclete. Non-believers do not have the Paraclete. They are not immortal, 1 Corinthians 15:

The dead are not immortal, true, they perish in hell, true.
Scripture says also tormented forever and ever.
Eternal never ending torment of the dead in hell is the historical church understanding for centuries of time.
They do not escape that place ever once cast into it. That is their eternal fate.


And someone deleted my post #4 as I dont see it. Now why is it that the scriptures get deleted as that is what was posted. Let me post them again.

Revelation 14:10
he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Revelation 20

Satanic Rebellion Crushed​

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Scott Downey]

Is the human soul mortal or immortal? | GotQuestions.org

Is the human soul mortal or immortal? Does every human being have an eternal soul? Or, do we receive eternal souls when God saves us?

www.gotquestions.org

excerpt on Soul immortality. this article shows the historical longstanding position and doctrine of the churches.

The human soul or spirit is that part of a man or woman that is not physical. The soul is central to the personhood of a human being. It is the “true self”—who a person really is. The soul is the center of life, feeling, thought, and action in a human being.

Without a doubt the human soul is immortal. That is, the soul is not subject to death. Once created, the soul never ceases to exist but is everlasting. The soul is spiritual and thus has the quality of immortality. In contrast, the body is physical; the earthly body we now possess is subject to death.
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break, why post too much
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In John 5:26 Jesus says, “The Father has life in himself.” This is another way of saying that God alone is immortal. The immortality of the human soul, that is, its quality of continuing forever, is a reflection of God’s nature in us. God alone is without a beginning or end. All of His creatures, animal, human, and angelic, had a beginning. Our souls came into being at a certain point in history, and there was a time when our souls did not exist. Only our Creator is eternal.

Other passages that indicate the immortality of the human soul include Luke 23:43, where Jesus promises one of the thieves who is dying beside Him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” Obviously, Jesus believed the soul of the repentant thief was going to survive physical death.

Daniel 12:2–3 says, “Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise a will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.” This passage promises a resurrection of both the just and the unjust. When we die, our bodies return to “dust” (cf. Genesis 3:19). From that dust the body will return to either “everlasting life” or “everlasting contempt.” We must assume the soul will be reunited with the body at that time—otherwise, the resurrected bodies would be soulless and therefore inhuman.

In Matthew 25:46 Jesus said that the wicked “will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” The same Greek word, translated “eternal,” is used to describe both “punishment” and “life.” Jesus clearly taught that both the wicked and the righteous will exist forever in one of two conditions. Thus, every human being has an immortal, everlasting soul.

The unmistakable teaching of the Bible is that all people, whether saved or lost, will exist eternally. The spiritual part of us does not cease to exist when our fleshly bodies pass away in death. Our souls will live forever, either in the presence of God in heaven or in punishment in hell. The Bible also teaches that our souls will be reunited with our bodies at the resurrection. This hope of a bodily resurrection is at the very heart of the Christian faith (1 Corinthians 15:12–19).

 

[TonyChanYT]

Eternal never ending torment of the dead in hell is the historical church understanding for centuries of time.

In the last 2 millenniums, there was never a time when it was the only possible view among all churches. See Origen was a Universalist.

 

[Scott Downey]

In the last 2 millenniums, there was never a time when it was the only possible view among all churches. See Origen was a Universalist.

yeah, but it is still the majority view.

 

[TonyChanYT]

Without a doubt the human soul is immortal.

verse?

 

[TonyChanYT]

yeah, but it is still the majority view.

reference?

 

[Scott Downey]

verse?

I posted the web link, read it in there.

 

[Scott Downey]

reference?

Catholics are a huge sect and they do not believe in annihilationism.
Every protestant church I went does not either.
There might be a denomination that does, don't know about that.

Yes, Hell Is Real and It Is Eternal

Trent Horn reminds the faithful of the very personal reality of the devil, and the reality of hell as eternal punishment for the condemned.

www.catholic.com

 

[TonyChanYT]

I posted the web link, read it in there.

Thanks for the references. To save the effort of your readers, this is how to do referencing in a scholarly manner:

1. Give the source/citation.
2. Provide the URL link to the source if available.
3. Indent the quoted text.
4. Bold the relevant keywords that are important to the point that you are making.
5. Be concise and to the point.

This is what I do for others who read my posts. It is a standard high-school scholarship. If you practice this, I guarantee you it will improve your analytical thinking. In any case, no one is required to do it here.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Matthew 10:

Only God is immortal. Believers possess immortality because they have the Paraclete. Non-believers do not have the Paraclete. They are not immortal, 1 Corinthians 15:

This is largely speculative to me because so much has been added to the doctrine of Hell by nominal Christianity in the history of State churches. For example, Dante painted Hell in hideous, carnal terms.

And Christian evangelists have misused Hell, depicted as a torture chamber, to frighten people into converting. Manipulation is not the method the Bible advocates for preaching the Gospel. Rather, the Gospel is a presentation of truth, with some degree of persuasiveness, but apart from manipulation and duress.

Hell, in reality, is itself burned up in the Lake of Fire. It is the place of the dead awaiting final judgment. Christians may be kept in a place in God's close presence because they have embraced God's Son even prior to judgment. They are already liberated from judgment.

The Lake of Fire, then, does not for me suggest a place of "eternal torture," but rather, a place of "eternal torment." This simply means that the decision to be apart from God will always be regretted and become an unending remorseful emotion.

The separation from God's presence will never be forgotten. We were created to be in God's presence, and so it is impossible to rearrange our psychological frame of mind to justify separation from God's presence. And so, there will be this psychological suffering forever by the Wicked who have chosen to be separated from God.

The Lake of Fire is a "fire" because it *removes,* as opposed to *tortures.* God is not a masochist, and has in His Law protested any kind of uncompassionate abuse of human beings.

So the fire is like a burned down village, to remove it as a pagan blemish in a righteous, godly world. And since it will be "burned down" and removed forever, people are depicted as going into the Lake of Fire forever. That is, they will forever be removed from the New Earth and all of its righteousness. Again, "removal" is not "torture!"

As for the resurrection of the Lost, the Scriptures indicate both the righteous and the wicked are raised from the dead. That means all human beings, having been created for physical bodies, will be raised up in new physical bodies.

But the sense of resurrected bodies being made "immortal" may convey something different than how we, in English, usually portray "immortality." We may think of it as an unending, undying experience.

But the Bible speaks of "death" as a distance placed, spiritually, between God and the Wicked. This "separation" is itself called "the 2nd Death," and not strictly the loss of a body, or mortality.

I would not call this 2nd Death the loss of "immortality in the sense many people use the term, to depict an eternal bodily existence. I do think the wicked will have an eternal bodily existence, but I don't think they will have what the Bible defines as "immortality."

Biblically, "immortality" refers to a resurrected body that will never again suffer separation from the soul nor separated in any real distance from God. The Wicked, being separated from God, will continue in this "separated," dead state associated with the 2nd Death.

The 2nd Death is not just a separation from God, which people already suffer in the present age. It also involves the death of the body and a resurrection into a new body characterized by the separation of its soul from God. I believe the eternal physical existence of the Wicked will continue forever.

I do think we are not told everything about the eternal fate of the Wicked in their physical bodies. They may even continue to exist on the earth. But they are completely removed from the earth as depicted by the "New Earth." The Lake of Fire removes their right to be on the side of the great chasm where the righteous live.

They may indeed continue to have a purpose and jobs for God. They are an eternal creation of God. They will not be allowed to engage in sinful acts, though their spirits are still separated from God. Their attitudes will still be sinful. But they were created to be good, and will likely still be able to accomplish good things for the Lord.

We are likely not told much about the eternal fate of the Wicked because it is not our concern and will not be helpful at present. The way I like to look at it is the Wicked will dwell on earth much as it is now, without all of the injustice and wicked deeds. Sounds like a drudgery to me!