Does Understanding Eschatology Prove You Are Saved?

[Spiritual Israelite]

When reading "all" in these verses, do you believe it means without exception, or without distinction?

Without exception. God is love (1 John 4:8) and wants literally all people to repent and to be saved.

Do you think that God is pleased to leave some people in their wickedness so that they end up being eternally tormented or do you think He wants them to repent and to be saved before they die instead?

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, you don't get it. His people were once wicked! Once in the kingdom of darkness, before being translated into the kingdom of Christ. Hello? LOL!

LOL!!! While someone is not saved and part of the wicked, they are not His people! Hello??? You are twisting scripture completely out of proportion. The level of foolishness in your posts is off the charts.

Ouches!! God does require His people to come to repentance! Else, they were not born again.

What in the world are you talking about? He wants all people everywhere to come to repentance, as scripture teaches (2 Peter 3:9, Acts 17:30)?

NIV?? What a terrible bible translation! Strong's G2248 does not say "anyone". Its "US" or "US-ward". And God did not say "everyone", it is "all" so like RWB asked you, "When reading "all" in these verses, do you believe it means without exception, or without distinction?"

LOL. So, you are part of the KJV-only cult, are you? Give me a break. You know the Bible wasn't written in English, don't you?

You misunderstood. God is longsuffering that patient while He waits for ALL of HIS PEOPLE to repentance. Remember they were wicked to begin with. Once the last Elect has repented and come to His Kingdom, the end will come. Not wait for the last person of mankind to repent. Silly you.

You dodge every point. There is no cause for God's longsuffering or patience if repentance is entirely up to you. That would mean He's patiently waiting on Himself to give all of His people repentance. LOL. Such nonsense.

Foolish. The light has come into HIS PEOPLE, the world, THROUGH Christ, but the rest loved the darkness. Simple as that!

Foolish lack of looking at context and foolish lack of actually addressing my point. You are ignoring John 3:19! The world that the light came into included those who were in darkness and chose to love darkness instead. It's not contrasting the world with darkness, it's saying the light went into the world of darkness. Good grief. Is there any verse in scripture that you won't twist to make it say what you want it to say?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Without exception. God is love (1 John 4:8) and wants literally all people to repent and to be saved.

False. Very false!

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

The text reads what God says: "I have no pleasure in this, that the wicked does not turn and dies, but in this, that he turns and lives. Whoever does not turn is certainly killed by God with eternal death, and God certainly has pleasure in this death as punishment for sin, for it is a manifestation of His justice. But whoever turns shall live, not because he turns, for that would never be able to earn life for him, nor to blot out his former sins; but because God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked who turns, but in the eternal mercy has blotted out his unrighteousness. And that there is no universal love for sinners in the text, but a love for the sinner who turns.

Also note that the verse speaks to the House of Israel. Not the whole world. God speaks here also to the NT. Church. God is saying, "If I had not been merciful to you with eternal mercy, you would have to die in your sins; then no turning would make any difference, nor would there even be a way of turning open. But now it is otherwise. There is no reason that you should die. Turn ye then to me and live!" He is talking to His, "many are called, few are chosen" INTO HIS CONGREGATION, the House of Israel in Christ. Not talking about unsaved people of the world outside the house of Israel as they are NOT God's people!

This is the meaning of Ezekiel 33:11.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

False. Very false!

True. Very true! You deny explicit scriptural truth, to your shame.

The text reads what God says: "I have no pleasure in this, that the wicked does not turn and dies, but in this, that he turns and lives. Whoever does not turn is certainly killed by God with eternal death, and God certainly has pleasure in this death as punishment for sin, for it is a manifestation of His justice. But whoever turns shall live, not because he turns, for that would never be able to earn life for him, nor to blot out his former sins; but because God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked who turns, but in the eternal mercy has blotted out his unrighteousness. And that there is no universal love for sinners in the text, but a love for the sinner who turns.

Also note that the verse speaks to the House of Israel. Not the whole world. God speaks here also to the NT. Church. God is saying, "If I had not been merciful to you with eternal mercy, you would have to die in your sins; then no turning would make any difference, nor would there even be a way of turning open. But now it is otherwise. There is no reason that you should die. Turn ye then to me and live!" He is talking to His, "many are called, few are chosen" INTO HIS CONGREGATION, the House of Israel in Christ. Not talking about unsaved people of the world outside the house of Israel as they are NOT God's people!

This is the meaning of Ezekiel 33:11.

LOL! A complete twisting of God's word. You have no shame. The text indicates that when the wicked die, God takes no pleasure in it because He would rather that they had repented of their ways instead. He wanted them to repent, but they did not. But, they must be punished for their wickedness and lack of willingness to repent. But, God takes no pleasure in that. That is what Ezekiel 33:11 means. He commands all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30) because He wants all people everywhere to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6) instead of dying in their wickedness, which results in eternal torment.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

False. Very false!

What would you tell a random person who you don't know that came up to you and asked you what they needed to do to be saved?

 

[rwb]

Without exception. God is love (1 John 4:8) and wants literally all people to repent and to be saved.

Do you think that God is pleased to leave some people in their wickedness so that they end up being eternally tormented or do you think He wants them to repent and to be saved before they die instead?

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Are you a universalist? Either all mankind shall be eternally saved, or atonement is limited to whosoever believes. Which do you believe is biblical?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Are you a universalist? Either all mankind shall be eternally saved, or atonement is limited to whosoever believes. Which do you believe is biblical?

No, I'm not a universalist. What gave you that idea?

We must be defining terms differently. To me, limited atonement means that Christ's atonement is limited only to certain people and the rest don't even have the opportunity to have their sins atoned for. I don't believe that. I believe all people have that opportunity. I believe that God wants all people to be saved and offers salvation to all people because scripture teaches that (1 Timothy 2:3-6, Titus 2:11). It teaches that He wants all people to repent (Ezekiel 18:23, 2 Peter 3:9, Acts 17:30) and that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2). All people have free will and must choose to repent and believe or not.

Now, can you please answer my question that I had asked?

Do you think that God is pleased to leave some people in their wickedness so that they end up being eternally tormented or do you think He wants them to repent and to be saved before they die instead?

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

 

[TribulationSigns]

What would you tell a random person who you don't know that came up to you and asked you what they needed to do to be saved?

What do you think? We will preach to every creature since the Cross becasue we do not know who are God's chosen Elect. God is waiting for all of HIS people to repent. Not waiting for all and every man of mankind. If you believe that God wanted all men to have the same opportunity for salvation, then what about the native Americans or Asians during the time of Moses? Did they have the same opportunity as the wicked ones of the New Testament? You do not make any sense.

Again the way you understand this would make the whole verse foolishness. This verse has been pondered over and fudged on and changed and twisted, and still it is a mystery to a lot of people. But let's look at how contradictory your understanding of it would be. Some worthy repeat!

1st Timothy 4:10

• "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."

In the last part of this verse Paul clarifies/qualifies the first part where he said that Christ was the Saviour of ALL men. He is declaring that when He says all, he specifically means "all believers." For example, He qualifies that "those who believe," are the special or peculiar men that Christ is the Saviour of! Not all the world, but more specially/particularly, all the world who believes. The word translated "specially" is the Greek word [malista], the superlative form of a the word [mallon], meaning more, or to a higher degree. Thus [malista] is just an intensified form of [mallon], and should be translated "more specially, exact or specifically. In point of fact, it would be foolish and confusion to read this that Christ is the Saviour of all men, especially those who believe. Think about it. That makes no sense. Because if all are saved, how is it especially believers that are saved. Those who are saved are believers! That's like saying I'm going to give everyone 100 dollars, especially believers. You see how foolish that is? If all are given it, how is it "Specially" those who believe?!?! It only makes sense when we understand it Biblically, as God intended. That God qualifies the "ALL" in his comment by saying that "those who believe," are the specific or particular "all" that Christ is the Saviour of. Not all men or everyone single person in the world. All the world, specifically that believes.

Matthew 1:21

• "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."

Yes, He shall save all people, but it will be specially or specifically "all His People," not all people in the world. All who believe.

John 17:9

• "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."

The bigger point is, if we believe Christ, we already know that hell will be heavily populated, so it is rank foolishness to believe God saves all the people in the world. Even as God very clearly said, He came to save "HIS PEOPLE" from their sins, not all people. And that is the very definition of Limited Atonement. Christ declared that He will say to many, depart from me into everlasting torment. That means all will not be saved. That is Limited atonement. For Obviously (if we are rational) these did not have their sins atoned for. Unless of course we have no clue what the word atonement means. You can't have sins atoned for, and still have those very same sins condemn us.

 

[rwb]

No, I'm not a universalist. What gave you that idea?

What else could I think since you believe when Scripture says "all" in connection with eternal life it means every single human? I don't believe you doubt the power of God to accomplish whatsoever He wills and will bring to pass whatsoever He wills. If it is God's desire to save all of humanity based upon man's so-called free will, how will God accomplish to save "all" whom He desires? Because mankind in their fallen state will never freely choose to submit their lives to God. Scripture is very clear that none are righteous, none understand, none seek after God (Ro 3:9-10).

To me, limited atonement means that Christ's atonement is limited only to certain people and the rest don't even have the opportunity to have their sins atoned for. I don't believe that. I believe all people have that opportunity. I believe that God wants all people to be saved and offers salvation to all people because scripture teaches that (1 Timothy 2:3-6, Titus 2:11). It teaches that He wants all people to repent (Ezekiel 18:23, 2 Peter 3:9, Acts 17:30) and that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2). All people have free will and must choose to repent and believe or not.

As long as you continue to believe that fallen mankind, who are not good, don't understand and don't seek after God are free to choose life or death then you will never understand how and why atonement is indeed limited according to the will of God. That's where mankind went wrong from the beginning of creation. A&E believed the lie and thought that if they freely chose to disobey God and eat from the forbidden tree, they could be like God. It was in believing they could save themselves that cost them and humanity the freedom to choose God for everlasting life. Instead of obtaining eternal life, they brought the curse of sin and death through sin upon the whole of creation. Not only would humanity suffer through sin, grow old and pass away, so too would all that God had created. That's why the whole natural created world is waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God, that creation and everything God made to be "very good" shall be made new again. Mankind will never again have the ability to choose God and live forever until they are born again. Until that time fallen mankind is without ability within themselves to freely choose God for eternal life.

Do you think that God is pleased to leave some people in their wickedness so that they end up being eternally tormented or do you think He wants them to repent and to be saved before they die instead?

When God created mankind, He created them "very good". Man was with God and could have freely chosen to obey God and live forever. So why would anyone think that God is pleased to leave some people in their wickedness to be eternally tormented? Should man blame God when it was man, not God who desired to be like God in heeding the voice of evil, bringing sin and death upon creation? I don't view God as leaving some of mankind in a state of sin and death. Rather I leave the gift of everlasting life to the choice of a "very good" Creator who through love and compassion determined that sin and death through sin would not utterly destroy creation and chose to save His people from their sins, obtaining everlasting life for ALL of them (Gentiles as well as Jews).

Matthew 1:21 (KJV) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What do you think?

I don't know. That's why I asked you that question. It seems, to be consistent with what you believe you would tell the person that there is nothing they can do to be saved because God does it all. So, was my question too hard? What would you tell the person?

We will preach to every creature since the Cross becasue we do not know who are God's chosen Elect. God is waiting for all of HIS people to repent. Not waiting for all and every man of mankind. If you believe that God wanted all men to have the same opportunity for salvation, then what about the native Americans or Asians during the time of Moses? Did they have the same opportunity as the wicked ones of the New Testament? You do not make any sense.

You make no sense whatsoever in anything you're saying. Not one thing. Those who never heard the gospel will be judged according to the standards Paul outlined in Romans 1 and 2, so who are you to say they had no opportunity to be saved?

Again the way you understand this would make the whole verse foolishness.

Wrong. You're just saying that for no reason whatsoever. Your arguments are as weak as can possibly be. You try to create definitions for words that don't exist in order to make scripture say what you want it to say. It's ridiculous.

This verse has been pondered over and fudged on and changed and twisted, and still it is a mystery to a lot of people.

No one twists it more than you do. You are being hypocritical.

But let's look at how contradictory your understanding of it would be. Some worthy repeat!

1st Timothy 4:10

• "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."

In the last part of this verse Paul clarifies/qualifies the first part where he said that Christ was the Saviour of ALL men. He is declaring that when He says all, he specifically means "all believers."

LOL. Nonsense! Talk about twisting scripture! You are blatantly doing that here. He is the Savior of all people because there is no other Savior by whom people can be saved. He is especially the Savior of those who believe because only they actually become saved. But, you can't say those who rejected Christ didn't have the opportunity to be saved. Of course they did! Hello? Wake up. God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked as it says in Ezekiel 18:23 and Ezekiel 33:11. He would rather that they had repented instead. He commands all people everywhere to repent because all people everywhere are able to repent (Acts 17:30). It couldn't be more clear. But, you deny the obvious because you just believe what you want to believe.

Calvinism is a false belief system that does not take all of scripture into account and is based on cherry picked scriptures that are taken out of context. You can't convince me otherwise.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What else could I think since you believe when Scripture says "all" in connection with eternal life it means every single human?

You apparently aren't reading everything I'm saying about this topic because you would not be saying this if you did. I've made it quite clear that I believe God wants all people to be saved and that He offers salvation to all people. But, all people are required to use their free will to choose whether to accept God's offer of salvation or not. Is there anything you don't understand about what I'm saying here? I think I'm being quite straightforward and I don't think I'm saying anything to suggest I'm a universalist. Obviously, not all people are saved and not all people will be saved and I'm not saying anything at all to suggest that.

I don't believe you doubt the power of God to accomplish whatsoever He wills and will bring to pass whatsoever He wills.

Do you understand that God has a will that can't be thwarted, but also has desires that He makes possible, but also makes man responsible to choose? An example of His will that can't be thwarted is that He determined He would send His Son to die for the sins of the whole world. There was nothing that was going to stop Him from doing that. He wants all people to accept His Son and to be saved, but He does not force anyone to repent and believe. Faith is not something that can be forced. Someone must willingly repent of their sins and put their trust in Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. If that is just something that God does for us, what is the point of that? Why didn't He just create only people with faith in that case?

What is the reason, in your view, that anyone is punished for eternity with eternal torment? Doesn't punishment result from people doing things that they shouldn't have done and could have chosen not to do or from people not doing things that they should have done and could have chosen to do?

Tell me, do you believe that all people have no excuse for suppressing the truth in unrighteousness and for not glorifying God as God and being thankful to Him? If so, why do you think those same people who have no excuse for suppressing the truth are not able to repent and believe?

If it is God's desire to save all of humanity based upon man's so-called free will, how will God accomplish to save "all" whom He desires?

What is this question based on? What does this question even mean? The ones He desires to save are those who believe in His Son.

Because mankind in their fallen state will never freely choose to submit their lives to God.

That is not true. After being given the truth by way of the word of God and the Holy Spirit speaking to one's heart, each person must choose how to respond. Nowhere does scripture teach that no one will ever freely choose to submit their lives to God after being presented with the truth.

Scripture is very clear that none are righteous, none understand, none seek after God (Ro 3:9-10).

None seek after God on their own without first hearing the word of God. But, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17). What about after someone hears the word of God? You can't just form doctrine from cherry picked scriptures. You need to look at all of scripture. You see a scripture saying none seek after God and draw a conclusion from it without taking the rest of scripture into consideration. What do you do with this verse...

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Scripture says "none seek after God:, yet also says "he rewards those who earnestly seek him". Do you just ignore Hebrews 11:6 in favor of Romans 3:9-10 or do you try to reconcile them in a way that they don't contradict each other? You cant just ignore Hebrews 11:6, so you need to find a way to reconcile these verses. The way to do that is to understand that no one just starts seeking after God on their own. First, God has to reach out to someone via the word of God and His Spirit and then people have the choice of how to respond. They can seek after God and the truth after being presented with truth or they can go their own way. God is love (1 John 4:8). It contradicts God's character for you to believe that He has no interest in doing anything to make it possible for some (most) people to be saved. Why do you believe such a thing? A God who is love would do nothing to keep most people from spending eternity in torment? Is that who you think God is? If so, you're wrong. He is full of grace and mercy and He graciously offers salvation to all people (Titus 2:11) and wants to have mercy on all people (Romans 11:30-32), as scripture teaches.

As long as you continue to believe that fallen mankind, who are not good, don't understand and don't seek after God are free to choose life or death then you will never understand how and why atonement is indeed limited according to the will of God.

You are the one lacking in understanding. You obviously chose to form a doctrine out of Romans 3:9-10 while ignoring or overlooking other verses like Hebrews 11:6 which says He rewards those who seek after Him. So, you need to dig deeper to see the context of Romans 3:9-10 instead of just interpreting in a wooden, literal fashion without considering context and without considering the rest of scripture.

That's where mankind went wrong from the beginning of creation. A&E believed the lie and thought that if they freely chose to disobey God and eat from the forbidden tree, they could be like God.

Hold on now. Stop. You're saying they freely chose to disobey God? What do you think, that Adam and Eve had free will, but then no one else after them has had free will? If so, how does that make any sense?

It was in believing they could save themselves that cost them and humanity the freedom to choose God for everlasting life. Instead of obtaining eternal life, they brought the curse of sin and death through sin upon the whole of creation. Not only would humanity suffer through sin, grow old and pass away, so too would all that God had created. That's why the whole natural created world is waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God, that creation and everything God made to be "very good" shall be made new again. Mankind will never again have the ability to choose God and live forever until they are born again. Until that time fallen mankind is without ability within themselves to freely choose God for eternal life.

You made all this up. It's not taught in scripture. The idea that Adam and Eve had free will, but no one else has is simply not taught in scripture anywhere.

When God created mankind, He created them "very good". Man was with God and could have freely chosen to obey God and live forever. So why would anyone think that God is pleased to leave some people in their wickedness to be eternally tormented?

Is that not what you believe? You don't believe God gives most people any opportunity at all to be saved, right? So, why would you not think it pleases Him to leave those people in their wickedness to be eternally tormented when that's exactly what you think God wants for them?

Should man blame God when it was man, not God who desired to be like God in heeding the voice of evil, bringing sin and death upon creation? I don't view God as leaving some of mankind in a state of sin and death.

Why not? Why do you think He punishes those who die in a state of sin and death if they had no ability to repent and believe unto salvation? What did they do or not do that caused God to be angry with them and take His wrath out on them? Does He get angry at people for not doing (not repenting and believing) things that they were not even able to do? Is that what a God who is love would do? I don't believe so. Not at all.

Rather I leave the gift of everlasting life to the choice of a "very good" Creator who through love and compassion determined that sin and death through sin would not utterly destroy creation and chose to save His people from their sins, obtaining everlasting life for ALL of them (Gentiles as well as Jews).

Matthew 1:21 (KJV) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

So, you don't really care about those who are not saved then? You think nothing of the fact that they, according to your doctrine, never even get a chance to be saved? And you think God doesn't really care about them, either, and it was His will for them to be eternally tormented with no opportunity to be saved?

 

[PinSeeker]

• Christ Jesus is the Savior of all people, the world, in the sense that it is possible for all to be saved because of His act of redemption.
• Christ Jesus is the Savior of only the elect in the sense that the elect are the ones given to them by the Father, of whom He will not lose one, but raise him/them up on the last day.

As the prophet Joel says, relating the words of God Himself, God "pours His Spirit out on all flesh" (Joel 2:28), and "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved" (Joel 2:32a). However, God says, "For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls." That word 'for' irrefutably indicates that what came before ~ "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved" ~ is dependent on... because of... is a consequence of... what comes after, which is, "among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls." So to say that clearly, those who do call on the name of the Lord will be the ones whom the Lord calls; in that sense and that sense only, yes, everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Not everyone is called in this way by God. Not all are the recipients of God's mercy and compassion and saving grace. And this is exactly what Paul says in Romans 8 through 11 and Ephesians 1 and 2, especially. The rest are given over to their own selfish passions and desires, because they have exchanged the truth for a lie ~ even though God has clearly made known all that can be known about Him in all of creation ~ and therefore have no excuse (Romans 1).

Grace and peace to all.

 

[PinSeeker]

Hey. Spiritual Israelite. Answer me this, and the follow-up, if you will:

Do you pray for the salvation of others?

If yes, then... why?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Behold]

• 
  
• Christ Jesus is the Savior of only the elect in the sense that the elect are the ones given to them by the Father, of whom He will not lose one,

Your phony Hyper Calvinism, just abused and misused a verse (John 17:12) where Jesus is talking only about his Apostles, and you aimed it at the entire body of Christ.

So, that wont fit.......but Calvin is happy that He owns you, and your theology.

That's the thing about Hyper Calvinists....they always try to Sell you John Calvinism.


Now if you want to make a verse fit the body of Christ, that says we cant be lost....then use "and noone is able to pluck them out of my Hand"......Jesus says..

Or..... 'you shall never Perish".

See those?
Those are for the Church.

 

[PinSeeker]

...took a verse where Jesus is talking about his Apostles, and you aimed it at the entire body of Christ.

His disciples, which includes us. In John 10, to a group of Jews questioning Him, He says, "you do not believe because you are not among My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one." So, not all are His... only the ones given Him by the Father.

I mean... Calvinism Schmalvinism. Jesus said what He said. And, not to equate Joel or Paul or anyone else with Jesus, but Joel ~ who actually quoted God Himself ~ and Paul ~ who indirectly also did, referring to Moses's quote of God ~ said what they said.

So, that wont fit...

Your narrative. Yes, I get it.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Behold]

His disciples, which includes us.

Those disciples were not Christians, yet.........

No Cross yet, as that happens 2 Chapters later.

A.) NO CROSS = NO Christianity


So, You can read John 17:12 and its talking about unsaved Jewish Apostles.

Are Christians unsaved Jewish apostles?

You just tried to prove 2x, that they were.

Sorry, no.

 

[PinSeeker]

Those disciples were not Christians, yet......

Even though Jesus ~ Who is God, of course ~ told them directly that they did not choose Him but He chose them... and thus called them... and appointed them that they should go and bear fruit and that their fruit should abide..." ~ language that Paul mirrors precisely in Ephesians 2 in speaking of us... Christians of course... being born again of the Spirit?

No Cross yet, as that happens 2 Chapters later.

A.) NO CROSS = NO Christianity

So, do I read you correctly as believing that no one in the Old Testament... Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, no one... was a Christian, and therefore will not be in the New Heaven and New Earth with, you know, Jesus and all of us? Hmmmm.... I mean, surely you've read Hebrews 11...

I'll ask you the same questions I asked SI above:

Do you pray for the salvation of others?

If yes, then... why?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Behold]

Even though Jesus ~ Who is God, of course ~ told them directly that they did not choose Him but He chose them...

Yes, He chose "THEM"...........unsaved Jewish Disciples, 12, - and the one whom Jesus said "is a Devil".

Rememer him?

So, as i told you......this is not the Body of Christ, as that didnt start until Jesus dies on The Cross.

 

[PinSeeker]

Yes, He chose "THEM"...........unsaved Jewish Disciples, 12...

Well, yes, before He chose them, they were unsaved. Sure.

, - and the one whom Jesus said "is a Devil". Rememer him?

Ah, yes, Judas, for sure. Yes, I "rememer" him. <smile> Certainly, we can all be devils from time to time... That God used Judas to accomplish His purposes and His will does not mean that he was not saved. If you disagree, then I understand, but there is nothing in Scripture, not even that Jesus said he was a devil, that suggests he was not saved.

So, as i told you.....

Yes, I know what you have "told" me. <chuckles> And apparently some things you have not told me, too... <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Behold]

Well, yes, before He chose them, they were unsaved. Sure.

Right.
They were not Christians.....they were just Disciples..

So, to try to "elect" them as Christians, was a Calvinism misfire, as is always the case with this false doctrine.

That God used Judas to accomplish His purposes and His will does not mean that he was not saved.

Humm.
You dont seem to know anything about Salvation. @PinSeeker

Let me show you a fact.

Judas died before Jesus died on The Cross, so, there was no Salvation offered by Christ's Cross, before Judas died.
So, that means he was not able to receive what Jesus had accomplished on The Cross.

"Salvation".

So, Judas died lost. (unforgiven).