Domestic Discipline - Is It Biblical?

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

JB...sorry...it's going to have to wait till Monday. I'm behind on things and need to get to them. Thanks for understanding and I won't forget.

All is good, sister. :)

 

[Niki]

Long day. Here at last. Had to bust chops in the experience threads you know ;)

In regards to Deb, see if you can draw out the spiritual implications of what she did and said, as I tend to think theirs a message today for modern man and woman in the church.

Chapt 4 opens up with 'again the Israelites did evil in the sight of the Lord...a few things happen then first mention of Deborah as the wife of one Lappidoth

Now Deborah, a prophet, the wife of Lappidoth, was leading[a] Israel at that time

Why is she called a prophet rather than a prophetess? Just the translation? (NIV) curiosity knows no bounds apparently ;)

The Israelites went to her to have their disputes settled..she was Judge at the time

She sent for Barak son of Abinoam from Kedesh in Naphtali and said to him, “The Lord, the God of Israel, commands you: ‘Go, take with you ten thousand men of Naphtali and Zebulun and lead them up to Mount Tabor.7 I will lead Sisera, the commander of Jabin’s army, with his chariots and his troops to the Kishon River and give him into your hands.’”

8 Barak said to her, “If you go with me, I will go; but if you don’t go with me, I won’t go.

Deborah does not just tell Barak what to do, but tells him The LORD commands you...remember she was a prophet...so I guess she
did mean those words just the way they sound........Barak seems to either value her company as she speaks for God or he is being sassy
and saying "well you come too then and don't just order me around. Either way, she doesn't sound hard to get along with.


9 “Certainly I will go with you,” said Deborah. “But because of the course you are taking, the honor will not be yours, for the Lord will deliver Sisera into the hands of a woman.” So Deborah went with Barak to Kedesh. 10 There Barak summoned Zebulun and Naphtali, and ten thousand men went up under his command. Deborah also went up with him.

She sounds agreeable enough...sounds like she meant for Barak to receive the honor or she would not have said 'the honor will not be yours for
the Lord will deliver Sisera into the hands of a woman.

So 1) I don't see a dispute about her being a Judge...she was also a prophet of the Lord

2) She meant for Barak to have the honor...he did not dispute her words or say..."aww come on..God said what?" Deborah already knew the victory would be theirs

Continuing we find Deborah telling Barka when to attack and we find that Sisera is defeated and interestingly, a woman is the one who actually killed him. (please don't state it was by
deception cause you know, it was war and she was 'only' a woman. ;)

Your turn please.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

So 1) I don't see a dispute about her being a Judge...she was also a prophet of the Lord. Indeed she was a prophetess of the LORD. She did judge Israel for a time, aprox I think 20 years. Her appointment was Civil (judicial), not religious like a minister.

2) She meant for Barak to have the honor...he did not dispute her words or say..."aww come on..God said what?" Deborah already knew the victory would be theirs... . Barak, like the rest of the effeminate and gutless and disobedient men, squirmed when he had to go alone-indicative of his/their spiritual state- and required for insurance that Deborah accompany him and his forces to the battle. Deborah would have agreed upon it instantly as GOD had already made it plain to her the outcome, so not to attend may well have put doubts in the cowards mind and in effect resulted in disobedience to GOD who insured their victory.

Continuing we find Deborah telling Barka when to attack and we find that Sisera is defeated and interestingly, a woman is the one who actually killed him. (please don't state it was by deception cause you know, it was war and she was 'only' a woman. :) What can I say?

Bottom line is there were no faithful men in Israel at the time, this had happened before and another prophet had to judge Israel. Deb was a civil magistrate and general governor not a religious leader- as above. So no argument for female pastors and leaders in the church today.

Men today are abdicating their responsibilities in home, church and society and woman are seeking to by subtly and not so subtle means take charge of God's people. Such people are dragging Deborah up as an excuse or argument for female leadership and that's just plain wrong. All the while the Ahab's of God's people are more than happy to allow women(Jezebel's) to assume responsibility all the while manipulating and abusing God's people and might I add the woman they appoint.

But the Ahab's will pay dearly soon enough.

Back to you. :)

 

[Niki]

2) She meant for Barak to have the honor...he did not dispute her words or say..."aww come on..God said what?" Deborah already knew the victory would be theirs... . Barak, like the rest of the effeminate and gutless and disobedient men, squirmed when he had to go alone-indicative of his/their spiritual state- and required for insurance that Deborah accompany him and his forces to the battle. Deborah would have agreed upon it instantly as GOD had already made it plain to her the outcome, so not to attend may well have put doubts in the cowards mind and in effect resulted in disobedience to GOD who insured their victory.

nummm...it is my observation that many "Christian" men complain about women...but don't take action themselves...or do not want to deal with a situation where conflict
between people is going on...the flip side being women who do control...everyone and everything around them...many of them quite subtly..which is where the idea of the
'Jezebel' spirit seems to come from

I don't think scripture tells us how Deborah came to be Judge in a male dominated world, does it? Perhaps her prophecies, coming true, got everyone's attention?

Bottom line is there were no faithful men in Israel at the time, this had happened before and another prophet had to judge Israel. Deb was a civil magistrate and general governor not a religious leader- as above. So no argument for female pastors and leaders in the church today.

What if there are no faithful men again? Just sayin...........you know, I really think some people...either male or female...that make the best leaders, are those with courage and
honesty...who do not necessarily even want to lead. I think too many men think they have the 'right' to be a leader...they are not all qualified by any means, and some of the
weakest marriage partners are men who assume that because they ARE men, women will automatically take their place...BECAUSE they have been taught this.

Bah...I just don't buy into automatic gender roles. Can you tell? :) I think capable people do capable things. I think a man who is secure, is not going to be whoosified
by a woman who can think for herself. Some men just resent women, period.

My dad taught me to think for myself and to NOT follow the crowd. I used to love to have these long discussions with him. He never made me feel I was out of place or
inferior. When I read or hear about how some women...growing up in church mind you...have been made to feel, I don't get it.

Men today are abdicating their responsibilities in home, church and society and woman are seeking to by subtly and not so subtle means take charge of God's people. Such people are dragging Deborah up as an excuse or argument for female leadership and that's just plain wrong. All the while the Ahab's of God's people are more than happy to allow women(Jezebel's) to assume responsibility all the while manipulating and abusing God's people and might I add the woman they appoint.

Well, not all men and not all women. I'm sure you don mean it that way. I didn't mention Deborah as an excuse. I see her as a fact. She's there...if God did not want her
there, she would not have been there. I'm an independent woman....that is, I don't want to be pushed or told do this or that because I am female. Unless you are gender
confused, (I'm not) why would you be expected to only do certain things...oh honey...the plate in the microwave came off..can you fix it...my cousin saying this to her husband...
I go "you can't fix that? I'll do it for you...it's easy" her: "No...he's the man...he needs to do it." Seriously? egads...shades of Scarlett O'Hara and how to snare a man.

Flattery seems to go a long long way with many men. I'd just rather have honesty

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

nummm...it is my observation that many "Christian" men complain about women...but don't take action themselves...or do not want to deal with a situation where conflict
between people is going on...the flip side being women who do control...everyone and everything around them...many of them quite subtly..which is where the idea of the
'Jezebel' spirit seems to come from

I don't think scripture tells us how Deborah came to be Judge in a male dominated world, does it? Perhaps her prophecies, coming true, got everyone's attention?


What if there are no faithful men again? Just sayin...........you know, I really think some people...either male or female...that make the best leaders, are those with courage and
honesty...who do not necessarily even want to lead. I think too many men think they have the 'right' to be a leader...they are not all qualified by any means, and some of the
weakest marriage partners are men who assume that because they ARE men, women will automatically take their place...BECAUSE they have been taught this.

Bah...I just don't buy into automatic gender roles. Can you tell? :) I think capable people do capable things. I think a man who is secure, is not going to be whoosified
by a woman who can think for herself. Some men just resent women, period.

My dad taught me to think for myself and to NOT follow the crowd. I used to love to have these long discussions with him. He never made me feel I was out of place or
inferior. When I read or hear about how some women...growing up in church mind you...have been made to feel, I don't get it.


Well, not all men and not all women. I'm sure you don mean it that way. I didn't mention Deborah as an excuse. I see her as a fact. She's there...if God did not want her
there, she would not have been there. I'm an independent woman....that is, I don't want to be pushed or told do this or that because I am female. Unless you are gender
confused, (I'm not) why would you be expected to only do certain things...oh honey...the plate in the microwave came off..can you fix it...my cousin saying this to her husband...
I go "you can't fix that? I'll do it for you...it's easy" her: "No...he's the man...he needs to do it." Seriously? egads...shades of Scarlett O'Hara and how to snare a man.

Flattery seems to go a long long way with many men. I'd just rather have honesty

I concur with that last statement. However, if you can find someone who not only supports that premise but has the wherewithal to be himself, notwithstanding any challenges he may personally have with a strong personality, then great. But my experience is that there are few and far between and the trend is most are soft or weak inside.

Enough said. :)

SHALOM

 

[Rex]

Flattery seems to go a long long way with many men. I'd just rather have honesty

I agree JB and money seems to have the same effect on women.

We are told to lift her up hold her above us, but its been my experience and observation that many women deserve to be drop right back on their butt instead.
They forget that it's a two person act and think they run the show as well. They become the mouth piece of the household, determining its course. Some don't seem to give their husbands opinion a second thought. They view their husbands sole purpose in life, is to provide and take care of them. But I think God made Adam a help mate, not a spoiled demanding child.

I found out marriage isn't for me. 1 Cor 7:32-35 and I'm very glad to be single.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

I agree JB and money seems to have the same effect on women.

We are told to lift her up hold her above us, but its been my experience and observation that many women deserve to be drop right back on their butt instead.
They forget that it's a two person act and think they run the show as well. They become the mouth piece of the household, determining its course. Some don't seem to give their husbands opinion a second thought. They view their husbands sole purpose in life, is to provide and take care of them. But I think God made Adam a help mate, not a spoiled demanding child.

I found out marriage isn't for me. 1 Cor 7:32-35 and I'm very glad to be single.

Absolutely. Unfortunately the amount of disinformation and antagonism that has been generated by mankind who in this latter day has placed a wedge between the sexes, by NOT retaining God in their knowledge.. Fueled by angry and disgruntled minorities, like the feminist movement, gay community and the like and men in general who wish to exploit people in general.

It's a sad and disturbing fact that humanity is almost again at full swing when it comes to hating thy neighbour. Interesting that Jesus said that the love of many shall wax cold and the enemies will even be of one's household. As you can imagine with the rise of feminism, there are many "loud and boisterous & who knoweth nothing". But equally true is what I call the Ahab's of society and church, who're nothing but gutless immature men, who don't have the spiritual or psychological wherewithal to "quit ye like men" and abdicate their GOD given responsibility to the woman.

I've ranted on enough.

SHALOM :)

 

[Rex]

Absolutely. Unfortunately the amount of disinformation and antagonism that has been generated by mankind who in this latter day has placed a wedge between the sexes, by NOT retaining God in their knowledge.. Fueled by angry and disgruntled minorities, like the feminist movement, gay community and the like and men in general who wish to exploit people in general.

It's a sad and disturbing fact that humanity is almost again at full swing when it comes to hating thy neighbour. Interesting that Jesus said that the love of many shall wax cold and the enemies will even be of one's household. As you can imagine with the rise of feminism, there are many "loud and boisterous & who knoweth nothing". But equally true is what I call the Ahab's of society and church, who're nothing but gutless immature men, who don't have the spiritual or psychological wherewithal to "quit ye like men" and abdicate their GOD given responsibility to the woman.

I've ranted on enough.

SHALOM :)

You can count me in the disgruntled man category, my wife was a nightmare, and it took me 5 years to get custody of my only son when he was 10, I'm still paying the bill $ and he's now 30

Lesion learned, man up and do what is right before the Lord no matter what the cost. He swung justice my way but it cost all I had to gain a son.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

You can count me in the disgruntled man category, my wife was a nightmare, and it took me 5 years to get custody of my only son when he was 10, I'm still paying the bill $ and he's now 30

Lesion learned, man up and do what is right before the Lord no matter what the cost. He swung justice my way but it cost all I had to gain a son.

Brother, I actually understand your position. :) Myself divorced and children "legally"-Huh, taken from me(20 yrs ago) and haven't seen since and hoping they have the wherewithal to seek me out.They were used and manipulated in conjunction with the "law- corrupt bastards -" and hurt because this lassy really didn't want to marry me as I found out later but just wanted to get her family of her back. First child wasn't mine.

So I'm not without understanding, brother. I was making a generally observation.

 

[aspen]

I think a core need for many women is security, which is often misinterpreted by men as a love for money. I think the answer to insecurity is focusing on faith rather than pursuing material things, but that takes time and growth.

I think men mistake flattery and power over others with a basic need for loyalty. Finding unconditional love in our relationship with God frees us up from demanding loyalty from humanity.

JMO

Yes, I understand divorce too. I was married for many years and still have a good relationship with my former wife, but it is still difficult to live with the failed relationship.

 

[Rex]

I think a core need for many women is security, which is often misinterpreted by men as a love for money. I think the answer to insecurity is focusing on faith rather than pursuing material things, but that takes time and growth.

I think men mistake flattery and power over others with a basic need for loyalty. Finding unconditional love in our relationship with God frees us up from demanding loyalty from humanity.

JMO

Money is security aspen
Ecclesiastes 7:12
A worldly security

 

[aspen]

Money is security, but it is not going to fulfill the need ..... Only faith in God will do that

 

[Rex]

Uhh....I do believe that's the meaning of the verse I quoted, along with showing you that security and money are one in the same.

I think a core need for many women is security, which is often misinterpreted by men as a love for money.

 

[Niki]

I concur with that last statement. However, if you can find someone who not only supports that premise but has the wherewithal to be himself, notwithstanding any challenges he may personally have with a strong personality, then great. But my experience is that there are few and far between and the trend is most are soft or weak inside.

Enough said. :)

SHALOM

My dad was himself....I had a number of boyfriends prior to marriage who were fine with it and my husband appreciates that he can trust me at all times.

I think you guys are just disenchanted with your own experience and want to paint the room black.

Thank God, not everyone shares that myopic experience. We are all free in Christ Jesus...of course you do have to hand Him your luggage and not carry it
around from one relationship to another.

So, all you got out of that passage was that Barak was gutless and Deborah was what? a manipulator? I'm not sure what your thoughts on her are

I think a core need for many women is security, which is often misinterpreted by men as a love for money. I think the answer to insecurity is focusing on faith rather than pursuing material things, but that takes time and growth.

I think men love money far more then women do...far more. Women like money because of what they can buy with it....men ALWAYS almost ALWAYS want power and money
is power if you have enough.

I don't find the sentiments expressed since my last post are very Christlike...they sound more like whining and griping then overcoming and living for Christ.

When men blame women for all their woes, there is something they are either not saying or not facing.

Money is security, but it is not going to fulfill the need ..... Only faith in God will do that

Money is not security. Thats baloney...if you believe the Bible, and you are a Christian, how on earth do you come up with a sentiment like that?

How discouraging and really ungracious. All men are not the same and all women are not the same.

 

[Rex]

Money is not security. Thats baloney...if you believe the Bible, and you are a Christian, how on earth do you come up with a sentiment like that?

How discouraging and really ungracious. All men are not the same and all women are not the same.

Didn't read threw the posts very well did you. Or you didn't understand, which ever the case is you really like to dish it out don't you? LOL
Be-careful you may bite off more than you can chew.

By the way making your comment larger is not yelling it indicates what part of your post I'm speaking about.

Solomon seemed to think money was shelter "a security" just as wisdom is.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

My dad was himself....I had a number of boyfriends prior to marriage who were fine with it and my husband appreciates that he can trust me at all times.

I think you guys are just disenchanted with your own experience and want to paint the room black.

Thank God, not everyone shares that myopic experience. We are all free in Christ Jesus...of course you do have to hand Him your luggage and not carry it
around from one relationship to another.

So, all you got out of that passage was that Barak was gutless and Deborah was what? a manipulator? I'm not sure what your thoughts on her are

I have no problems with sister Deb, beloved of the LORD. :)

 

[aspen]

I was just making an observation. I think you are right that man and women want money for different reasons. All I am saying is that Christ is the only way to overcome our fears and insecurities.

 

[Niki]

I have no problems with sister Deb, beloved of the LORD. :)

OK...thanks JB. I'm not sure we are quite in agreement in this thread, but I respect you're none confrontational answers. Thank you

I was just making an observation. I think you are right that man and women want money for different reasons. All I am saying is that Christ is the only way to overcome our fears and insecurities.

uh huh. What I was reading in some of the posts, is that some people are responding to other people out of bitterness rather than a desire to be honest
and try to understand.

I mean seriously, we all go through things...we have to sort them out...I certainly haven't had a magic carpet ride for life....much of what has been hurtful has
been caused by other people...we cannot allow ourselves to become or stay bitter...Christ has overcome and His burden is light....when we carry the burden of our own lives
and won't forgive what has been done to us, we are, in effect, carrying around the sins of others and we cannot change another person or make
some one over into how we would like them to be.

People will always disappoint us. Forgive as we have been forgiven. Sometimes that can be difficult and we have to deal with issues and impossible people,
but I don't see in scripture where we are told we can forgive except for.......

I guess you either get tired of feeling bad and reach out to God for His love, mercy and forgiveness, or your heart gets harder and harder until you snap
at everyone and people start avoiding you.

 

[Rex]

Lets look back Niki and see who it was that initiated the latest round of stereo type negative opinion.

Why it looks like it was you Niki, and you were clearly angry

no worries...I'm not offended.... I'm just really angry...

And a few post latter you made this post below, with the closing comment that JB and then myself commented on, I chose to reply with a bit of the sexes stereo typing you used, but now you seem to consider it responding out of bitterness, or dealing with impossible people.

Now you want to go around and blab about what horrible people there are here, all the while cuddling up to those that flatter you, some that have no better doctrinal principles than Justin.

You want honesty you've got it.

nummm...it is my observation that many "Christian" men complain about women...but don't take action themselves...or do not want to deal with a situation where conflict
between people is going on...the flip side being women who do control...everyone and everything around them...many of them quite subtly..which is where the idea of the
'Jezebel' spirit seems to come from

I don't think scripture tells us how Deborah came to be Judge in a male dominated world, does it? Perhaps her prophecies, coming true, got everyone's attention?


What if there are no faithful men again? Just sayin...........you know, I really think some people...either male or female...that make the best leaders, are those with courage and
honesty...who do not necessarily even want to lead. I think too many men think they have the 'right' to be a leader...they are not all qualified by any means, and some of the
weakest marriage partners are men who assume that because they ARE men, women will automatically take their place...BECAUSE they have been taught this.

Bah...I just don't buy into automatic gender roles. Can you tell? :) I think capable people do capable things. I think a man who is secure, is not going to be whoosified
by a woman who can think for herself. Some men just resent women, period.

My dad taught me to think for myself and to NOT follow the crowd. I used to love to have these long discussions with him. He never made me feel I was out of place or
inferior. When I read or hear about how some women...growing up in church mind you...have been made to feel, I don't get it.


Well, not all men and not all women. I'm sure you don mean it that way. I didn't mention Deborah as an excuse. I see her as a fact. She's there...if God did not want her
there, she would not have been there. I'm an independent woman....that is, I don't want to be pushed or told do this or that because I am female. Unless you are gender
confused, (I'm not) why would you be expected to only do certain things...oh honey...the plate in the microwave came off..can you fix it...my cousin saying this to her husband...
I go "you can't fix that? I'll do it for you...it's easy" her: "No...he's the man...he needs to do it." Seriously? egads...shades of Scarlett O'Hara and how to snare a man.

Flattery seems to go a long long way with many men. I'd just rather have honesty

This thread hadn't been touched in 3 days Niki not until you came back in with your latest round of sexes stereo typing

 

[Niki]

Sir, you flatter me with your constant attention. Flutters eyelashes