Don’t be afraid of sudden fear and desolation of the wicked: For the Lord shall be your confidence.

[FaithWillDo]

For it is impossible…but with God all things are possible. You spoke of a falling away.
I also wonder about the passage of “it is impossible” and “to renew them again” with “be you transformed by the renewing of your mind”?

Dear VictoryinJesus,
This is a very good question and the answer lies at the very foundation of the differences between the Old Covenant of Law and the New Covenant of Grace through Faith. I can't stress the importance of this difference enough.

My answer may be a little long.

The Old Covenant of Law is outward and physical. The works which are performed under the Old Covenant are the works of man.

The New Covenant of Grace through Faith is inward and spiritual. The works which are performed under the New Covenant are solely the works of Christ. Mankind contributes nothing (absolutely zero).

Because mankind has no works to perform under the New Covenant for our salvation, scripture says that we must enter into the "rest" of Christ to be saved. That "rest" is what the Sabbath Day law foreshadowed and is why a Christian, who is under the New Covenant, does not have to physically rest once a week as the Law requires.

This concept applies:

1Cor 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

The Old Covenant of Law is "natural" (written on tablets of stone) and the New Covenant is "spiritual" (written in man's heart).

Christ's work of fulfilling the Law for our salvation began with His physical work which He completed at the cross. Just before He died, Christ said "it is finished" (referring to His physical work). Upon Christ's resurrection from the grave, Christ began His spiritual work under a new covenant - the New Covenant of Grace through Faith. Under the New Covenant, Christ will fulfill the Law within each person who has ever lived. He accomplishes this task by spiritually converting us from being a child of the Devil (who sins) to being a child of God (who doesn't sin). And like Christ's physical work, Christ will also do all the spiritual work that we need for salvation/conversion.

This scripture below sums up Christ's work by breaking it into 2 parts:

John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: 1) I am come that they might have life, and 2) that they might have it more abundantly.

Christ's physical work which gives us "life" was accomplished at the cross. With Christ's death, He earned the keys to death & hell which gave Him the authority to resurrect all mankind from the grave. But salvation is more than just the same sinful life we presently have. Salvation is a life free from sin with a restored relationship with the Father. This type of life is the "more abundant" life that Christ will give us under the New Covenant of Grace through Faith.

Now to the scripture you referenced:

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection (conversion); not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and age-enduring judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come 6 if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance: seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the earth (carnal mankind) which drinketh in the rain (Early Rain) that cometh oft upon it (many are called), and bringeth forth herbs (babes in Christ) meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing (salvation) from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers (fallen away believer, not faithful) is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned (judged).

In this scripture, Paul is teaching about the sin that leads to death. It is by this sin that Satan spiritually kills (loss of salvation) all new believers shortly after Christ gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit.

So what is this sin that leads to death? It is the sin of believing that we must contribute at least some work (either physical or spiritual) in order to receive salvation from Christ. This work can take many forms but the most common form comes from a belief in the Doctrine of Free Will. Under that doctrine, it says that we must develop our own faith in Christ so that we will make a free will decision to accept Jesus as Lord. After we make this free will decision, Christ will give us the Holy Spirit and salvation. Some believe that water baptism is also a required.

The doctrine of Free Will is the foundational belief that supports the Doctrine of Hell. It justifies why some people are saved and why others are not. But rather than recognize that Christ is the one who is responsible for our salvation, this doctrine puts the responsibility back onto mankind. This doctrine, however, is what the Old Covenant of Law was founded upon (man's works). And because the Doctrine of Free Will places the responsibility for salvation back onto mankind, it implies that the people who accept Christ as Lord are somehow better than those who reject Christ. In other words, those who accept Christ believe that they are smarter, wiser or just not as evil as those who reject Him. The feeling that comes from this belief is very pleasing to the individual's carnal nature. For that reason, Christ said this:

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine (Old Covenant of man's works) straightway desireth new (New Covenant of Christ's works): for he saith, the old is better.

After a person receives the Early Rain of the Spirit, they will remain carnal and spiritually blind. Because they remain carnal, they will quickly turn back to the Old Wine (man's works, religion) because they find that it tastes better than the New Wine (more pleasing to their carnal nature).

When a person turns back to trusting in their own works for salvation, they have broken their repentance from dead works. They have turned away from their faith under the New Covenant which says that they trust Christ to do all the works for their salvation. In other words, they are no longer faithful. And since they are no longer faithful, they are no longer under the blood of Christ of the New Covenant but are, in fact, back under the Old Covenant of Law. For this reason, when a fallen away believer is resurrected from the grave, Christ will cast them into the Lake of Fire to be judged by the law.

Paul makes these comments below about this same subject using the issue of his day which was "circumcision":

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Paul continues in the next verse and adds this comment:

Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

In this portion of scripture, Paul is teaching Early Rain believers who remain carnal and spiritually blind. Paul is trying to help them understand the importance of remaining faithful to the New Covenant (Christ's works) and to their repentance from dead works.

So why is their faith so important? Paul explains it in Gal 5:5. Our faith in Christ under the New Covenant is what makes the pathway "straight" for Christ to come and appear to us. The Latter Rain is what makes Christ appear. This is the "hope of righteousness" Paul is referencing in verse 5.

In the marriage analogy, after a person receives the Early Rain, they become engaged to Christ. Christ (the Bridegroom) then goes away to prepare a place for his bride. While He is away, the chaste virgin must faithfully wait for Him to return. When Christ returns, He must find the virgin in the same chaste condition (faithful) as when He first came to them. If He finds that the virgin is no longer chaste but has committed the sin of fornication with Satan (following the crooked ways of Satan), He will reject them. I will teach more on the marriage analogy later.

CONTINUED ON THE NEXT POST...

 

[FaithWillDo]

Speaking of misunderstood verses. I’m not sure I truly understand Hebrews 6:3-7 And this will we do, if God permit. [4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, [5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. [7] For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

For it is impossible…but with God all things are possible. You spoke of a falling away.
I also wonder about the passage of “it is impossible” and “to renew them again” with “be you transformed by the renewing of your mind”?

CONTINUED FROM THE PREVIOUS POST...

Now back to what Paul said in Heb 6:1-8 about it being impossible to renew a fallen away believer. This sounds like if a believer falls away, they cannot ever be saved. However, this is not what Paul is actually saying. All Paul is saying is that when a believer falls away, they cannot be renewed strictly by their repenting again. But renewal can come to a fallen away believer, Paul just does not mention how this happens in this portion of scripture. Why? I believe it is because truth is taught "here a little, and there a little".

So where can we find out how a fallen away believer can be renewed?

First, let's look at the Parable of the Ten Virgins:

At the start of the parable, all ten virgins are acceptable but only five are predestinated to be the Bride of Christ (the five wise virgins). The parable then says that while the bridegroom tarried to return, all ten virgins slumbered and slept. This represents that all ten virgins fell away and lost their salvation. They did not remain chaste. Then it says that at midnight (the deepest part of a believer's spiritual blindness), a call goes out (call of Elijah to repent) that the Bridegroom is on His way back. All ten virgins rise and trim their lamps but they all find that they are low on fuel. The wise virgins (the Elect), however, have an extra flask of oil but the foolish virgins (called but not chosen) do not. The extra flask of oil represents the anointing of the Latter Rain of the Holy Spirit. With the Latter Rain, the unchaste virgin will answer the call and repent. They will then be "born again". In other words, they will be made into a chaste virgin again. Now that they have been made into a chaste virgin again, they will go out and the Bridegroom will appear to them. He will then take them back for the wedding and to the home He prepared for them (same as being gathered to heaven, Mat 24:31).

Second, let's look at the Parable of the Prodigal Son since it teaches the same message. It will be very summarized.

The Prodigal Son is the younger son. He represents the Elect. The concept of first comes the natural (the older son), then comes the spiritual (the Elect) applies - same as in the story of Jacob and Esau. The older son represents the many called but not chosen. At the start of the parable, the Father gives each son a portion of their inheritance (Early Rain). The younger son leaves home and wastes his inheritance on riotous living. This represents the younger son's loss of salvation. Later, the younger son comes to His senses (receives the Latter Rain). This causes Him to repent and return to His Father. When His Father sees him coming, he runs out to meet him. The Father then places a robe (clothes of righteousness) on him and a ring on his finger (represents that he is the heir). They both return to the Father's house (heaven) and have a feast (same as the wedding ceremony and supper). The older son won't come into the house but decides to stay in the fields working.

There are other examples I could give but this post is long enough. I hope I have answered your question.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Speaking of misunderstood verses. I’m not sure I truly understand Hebrews 6:3-7 And this will we do, if God permit. [4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, [5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. [7] For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

For it is impossible…but with God all things are possible. You spoke of a falling away.
I also wonder about the passage of “it is impossible” and “to renew them again” with “be you transformed by the renewing of your mind”?

Dear VictoryinJesus,
I had my wife read my response and she didn't think my answer was very clear in examples of the two parables.

I will try to do better here:

A fallen away believer is renewed because Christ "comes again" and gives the fallen away believer the Latter Rain. With the Latter Rain, they will be "born again", their faith restored, and their spiritual blindness healed. Then, in this new spiritual condition (since their blindness is healed), Christ will "appear" to the renewed believer and He will find His Bride to be faithful.

The Latter Rain comes first before Christ "appears".

In the final age, since the called but not chosen believers will not be given the Latter Rain prior to their appearance before Christ at the White Throne, Christ will find them unfaithful and reject them.

Joe

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Dear VictoryinJesus,
I had my wife read my response and she didn't think my answer was very clear in examples of the two parables.

I will try to do better here:

A fallen away believer is renewed because Christ "comes again" and gives the fallen away believer the Latter Rain. With the Latter Rain, they will be "born again", their faith restored, and their spiritual blindness healed. Then, in this new spiritual condition (since their blindness is healed), Christ will "appear" to the renewed believer and He will find His Bride to be faithful.

The Latter Rain comes first before Christ "appears".

In the final age, since the called but not chosen believers will not be given the Latter Rain prior to their appearance before Christ at the White Throne, Christ will find them unfaithful and reject them.

Joe

Not to make you feel bad because it’s not your fault but I agree with your wife. The first post and the last helped a lot but the parables threw me. Mostly because it gets confusing for me there. I loved the first post. It made sense to me. It’s a lot to take in. I did go back to read about the early and later rain and it just didn’t reveal anything to me yet. I won’t forget your time and what you have shared here. One thing I have seen is when I’m really confused about something and ask Him …it could be days, weeks, or sometimes a year but one day I will be reading and something helps clarify. I’m concerned because you mentioned struggling to understand me which I hear often from others. It does make me wonder if my thoughts don’t make sense or if I just have trouble expressing those thoughts. This may not make sense either…I do see a lot of clarification in what you’ve shared. But at the same time some things throw me off. For example I will be reading what you shared and it makes sense but then all of a sudden I run into a red flag. I don’t know if I am the one raising the red flag, or if it is truly a red flag. That is why I said I can’t say if I agree or disagree. You do have me curious and watchful for what is The early and later rain. The very first passage that ever spoke to me (intimately I think) when I was seeking healing verses was Job 38:25-27 ESV
"Who has cleft a channel for the torrents of rain and a way for the thunderbolt, [26] to bring rain on a land where no man is, on the desert in which there is no man, [27] to satisfy the waste and desolate land, and to make the ground sprout with grass?

To me that is a healing verse. I had been following faith healers around and had all the well known healing verses tapped to my walls. But it was the above verse, which wasn’t what someone else told me, but the first time the word actually spoke to my heart. Does that make sense? So I am not dismissing what you have shared. Another thought..maybe weird…but I think about Jesus and how he was born…but then when he was baptized by John and he come up out of the water and the Spirit descended and rested upon him. All those unanswered questions for me…for example didn’t Jesus already have the Spirit being born of God from the womb of Mary, where the Spirit overshadowed her and she gave birth? Or why did Jesus breathe on the disciples or say “receive you the Spirit” more than once. I’m not asking you to clarify those questions but I’m only saying I still have numerous unanswered questions. Thank you taking time to respond carefully to me. Like it matters. And please tell your wife thank you for also caring enough to give her input also.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Thank you taking time to respond carefully to me. Like it matters. And please tell your wife thank you for also caring enough to give her input also.

Clarifying “like it matters” that is sometimes used sarcastically in a negative way. I meant it as I truly believe you and your wife’s hope and desire is to help me with the later rain. Seeking after the best for me. I meant you both treat it as if it matters greatly and in return make me feel like you both consider me valuable and worth the effort.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Not to make you feel bad because it’s not your fault but I agree with your wife. The first post and the last helped a lot but the parables threw me. Mostly because it gets confusing for me there. I loved the first post. It made sense to me. It’s a lot to take in. I did go back to read about the early and later rain and it just didn’t reveal anything to me yet. I won’t forget your time and what you have shared here. One thing I have seen is when I’m really confused about something and ask Him …it could be days, weeks, or sometimes a year but one day I will be reading and something helps clarify. I’m concerned because you mentioned struggling to understand me which I hear often from others. It does make me wonder if my thoughts don’t make sense or if I just have trouble expressing those thoughts. This may not make sense either…I do see a lot of clarification in what you’ve shared. But at the same time some things throw me off. For example I will be reading what you shared and it makes sense but then all of a sudden I run into a red flag. I don’t know if I am the one raising the red flag, or if it is truly a red flag. That is why I said I can’t say if I agree or disagree. You do have me curious and watchful for what is The early and later rain. The very first passage that ever spoke to me (intimately I think) when I was seeking healing verses was Job 38:25-27 ESV
"Who has cleft a channel for the torrents of rain and a way for the thunderbolt, [26] to bring rain on a land where no man is, on the desert in which there is no man, [27] to satisfy the waste and desolate land, and to make the ground sprout with grass?

To me that is a healing verse. I had been following faith healers around and had all the well known healing verses tapped to my walls. But it was the above verse, which wasn’t what someone else told me, but the first time the word actually spoke to my heart. Does that make sense? So I am not dismissing what you have shared. Another thought..maybe weird…but I think about Jesus and how he was born…but then when he was baptized by John and he come up out of the water and the Spirit descended and rested upon him. All those unanswered questions for me…for example didn’t Jesus already have the Spirit being born of God from the womb of Mary, where the Spirit overshadowed her and she gave birth? Or why did Jesus breathe on the disciples or say “receive you the Spirit” more than once. I’m not asking you to clarify those questions but I’m only saying I still have numerous unanswered questions. Thank you taking time to respond carefully to me. Like it matters. And please tell your wife thank you for also caring enough to give her input also.

Dear VictoryinJesus,
Thanks for your response - it was well written and direct with your points. I will say that writing is not my strongest point either. I have been writing papers and forum posts for over 15 years now and because of such, my skills have improved - but my early writings left much to be desired.

As for what you and my wife said, I understand it completely. Here is the issue: truth is built up from the foundation and when a person is at a lower level than the subject at hand, they will not be able to connect the dots on some of my statements. I automatically make those connections but forget that others can't. For that reason, I like to stick with the milk of the Word on the forum but that usually does not happen. For me, when I was converted, Christ began feeding me the truth that He is really the Savior of the world, the truth about the false doctrines of Free Will and Hell and the truth that the churches of this world are all apostate. Those truths turned my world upside down and my worldly (carnal) paradigm was destroyed and replaced with a new spiritual paradigm.

Here is how Peter explained their day of conversion:

Acts 2:18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit (Latter Rain) in those days; And they shall prophesy. 19 I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke. 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.

The signs that Peter is describing are spiritual signs which happen within the believer who is being converted. They do not happen out in the world. The reason the sun and moon are darkened is to show that the believer no longer receives their truth (light) from the natural world but directly from Christ Himself.

I also wanted to make some comments on the verse you quoted:

Job 38:25-27 "Who has cleft a channel for the torrents of rain and a way for the thunderbolt, [26] to bring rain on a land where no man is, on the desert in which there is no man, [27] to satisfy the waste and desolate land, and to make the ground sprout with grass?

This verse is teaching on the spiritual healing that occurs when a believer receives the Latter Rain (torrents of Rain). It occurs in the desert because that is where Satan dwells and therefore, where the apostate church dwells. That is why after Israel believed the "bad report" from the 10 spies, they were not allowed to enter the Promised Land (salvation) but had to wander in the wilderness for 40 years. The 40 years of wandering represents the time that a believer will spend between receiving the Early and Latter Rains. It is also the time of Elijah's 3 1/2 years of drought and the time of the last 3 1/2 years of Daniel's Seventy weeks prophecy. When the Latter Rain falls on the ground, the drought will end and the land will become fertile and produce new grass (represents the new birth of the believer).

This verse added to what your verse says:

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send THUNDER and RAIN; that ye may perceive and see that your wickedness is great, which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

After receiving the Latter Rain, the believer's spiritual blindness is healed and they then "see" the Abomination of Desolation which occurred within themselves earlier.

I also wanted to comment on faith healers. All the healing in scripture is a physical type which foreshadows the spiritual healing that Christ will do in all mankind. This is the purpose of the healing that the Holy Spirit does.

This verse below applies to the faith healers in the apostate church:

2Thes 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

You said:
but then when he was baptized by John and he come up out of the water and the Spirit descended and rested upon him. All those unanswered questions for me…for example didn’t Jesus already have the Spirit being born of God from the womb of Mary, where the Spirit overshadowed her and she gave birth?

I know you said these are not questions you want me to answer but I love to "freely give" what the Lord has given to me so I am compelled to give you a short answer. I'm sorry if I am overstepping here.

Jesus' life which is recorded in the 4 gospels "typed" the pathway to salvation that the Elect will travel.

The baptism of John which Christ received served two purposes.

The first purpose was that it "typed" the Early Rain which is given to the Elect. For that reason, after Christ's baptism, Christ went into the desert to fast for 40 days. This 40 day fast represents the same thing as Elijah's 3 1/2 years of drought and Israel wandering in the wilderness for 40 years. It is the time that all believers spend after they receive the Early Rain.

The second purpose of Christ's baptism was that it officially commenced the first 3 1/2 years of the last seven years remaining of Daniel's prophecy. This baptism in effect "confirmed the covenant" that Christ made with Abraham. Then, at the midpoint of the last seven years, Christ was "cut off" at the cross. This event caused the change from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant. This left 3 1/2 years for Christ to complete Daniel's Seventy Weeks prophecy. Christ is now completing those last 3 1/2 years under the New Covenant which is spiritual. Christ begins the last 3 1/2 years for an individual when He gives them the Early Rain. The 3 1/2 years are completed when the person receives the Latter Rain. When the last Elect person is saved in this age, Daniel's prophecy will be complete.

I have two papers on Daniel's Seventy Weeks prophecy on my website in case you have an interest in understanding that prophecy in more detail.

You said:
Or why did Jesus breathe on the disciples or say “receive you the Spirit” more than once.

In John 20, Christ breathed on some of the Apostles. This happened to show the "type" of what will happen when Christ "comes again" to His Elect. His breathing on them represented the Latter Rain. That was why Christ did it and why it was recorded in scripture.

If you ever have any questions on certain scriptures, I would be happy to try and answer them. It gives me great joy to share the truth of God's Word.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Clarifying “like it matters” that is sometimes used sarcastically in a negative way. I meant it as I truly believe you and your wife’s hope and desire is to help me with the later rain. Seeking after the best for me. I meant you both treat it as if it matters greatly and in return make me feel like you both consider me valuable and worth the effort.

Dear VictoryinJesus,
You touched on a subject that explains why I do what I do on the forums. This verse applies and explains the ministry that I believe Christ has given me to do:

James 5:17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain (Latter Rain), and the earth produced its fruit. 19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

As I have said, when Christ is ready to give one of His Elect the Latter Rain, He will send a person to them in the spirit of Elijah with the call to repent from dead works. If they have the extra flask of oil, the pathway for Christ to come to them will be made "straight". This is the work that I believe Christ has given me to do. In 2005, when I was converted, Christ sent a man to me named Ray Smith who served this purpose for me. It is my hope and prayer that I can benefit you in the same way. You are in my prayers.

Joe

 

[VictoryinJesus]

As I have said, when Christ is ready to give one of His Elect the Latter Rain, He will send a person to them in the spirit of Elijah with the call to repent from dead works. If they have the extra flask of oil, the pathway for Christ to come to them will be made "straight". This is the work that I believe Christ has given me to do. In 2005, when I was converted, Christ sent a man to me named Ray Smith who served this purpose for me. It is my hope and prayer that I can benefit you in the same way. You are in my prayers.

Joe

One question I have is how did you know you received the later rain? I ask because you mentioned a time when your world was turned upside down. I can relate. For example …about six years ago things happened and for the first time I was truly interested in God. But also the first thing I did was head to the church, visiting all sorts of denominations for several years. As I mentioned I had all the healing verses people told me about taped to my walls. To make it short …like the passage from Job things started to change. I agree with you about all the healings Jesus Christ did showing, revealing, what God is doing in the Spirit. You make sense about hell and the false doctrines of men. You make sense about a lot. the way I see now from before is a one-eighty(or a complete turn about) from the girl who prayed for God to make it so I don’t need glasses (literally). because if God can heal eye sight then I shouldn’t need glasses(literally)…so convinced by faith healers. I know. Sounds crazy but I use to think wearing glasses was a shame. I was convinced I should pray and have enough faith in God and He would take the need to wear glasses away restoring my eye sight. Of course this would be a sign(to me) because I had a bigger problem in need of healing…Multiple sclerosis. Now I see …He IS healing my eyesight but it has nothing to do with wearing (literal) glasses.

At the same time I don’t think I’ve experienced “the appearance of Christ” by the way I understand the appearance of Christ. But instead I still wait and hope for His appearance. My question is how did you know? What happened in 2005 that is key to you for the later Rain? To be clearer…in the church often it is “have you received the Spirit and spoke in tongues?” can you help me understand what happened in 2005 that was unique?

 

[FaithWillDo]

One question I have is how did you know you received the later rain? I ask because you mentioned a time when your world was turned upside down. I can relate. For example …about six years ago things happened and for the first time I was truly interested in God. But also the first thing I did was head to the church, visiting all sorts of denominations for several years. As I mentioned I had all the healing verses people told me about taped to my walls. To make it short …like the passage from Job things started to change. I agree with you about all the healings Jesus Christ did showing, revealing, what God is doing in the Spirit. You make sense about hell and the false doctrines of men. You make sense about a lot. the way I see now from before is a one-eighty(or a complete turn about) from the girl who prayed for God to make it so I don’t need glasses (literally). because if God can heal eye sight then I shouldn’t need glasses(literally)…so convinced by faith healers. I know. Sounds crazy but I use to think wearing glasses was a shame. I was convinced I should pray and have enough faith in God and He would take the need to wear glasses away restoring my eye sight. Of course this would be a sign(to me) because I had a bigger problem in need of healing…Multiple sclerosis. Now I see …He IS healing my eyesight but it has nothing to do with wearing (literal) glasses.

At the same time I don’t think I’ve experienced “the appearance of Christ” by the way I understand the appearance of Christ. But instead I still wait and hope for His appearance. My question is how did you know? What happened in 2005 that is key to you for the later Rain? To be clearer…in the church often it is “have you received the Spirit and spoke in tongues?” can you help me understand what happened in 2005 that was unique?

Dear VictoryinJesus,
I will post my conversion experience in my next post. However, if you go to my website, in the upper right-hand corner, there is a link to it, as well.

You said:
about six years ago things happened and for the first time I was truly interested in God. But also the first thing I did was head to the church, visiting all sorts of denominations for several years.

This happened to my wife and me, too. We moved to Fayetteville, Arkansas because of my job and we struggled finding a new church to attend. We wanted to find a church that we believed had a strong love for the Lord but couldn't find one. This verse applied to us at that time:

Rom 10:2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.

You said:
At the same time I don’t think I’ve experienced “the appearance of Christ” by the way I understand the appearance of Christ. But instead I still wait and hope for His appearance. My question is how did you know? What happened in 2005 that is key to you for the later Rain? To be clearer…in the church often it is “have you received the Spirit and spoke in tongues?” can you help me understand what happened in 2005 that was unique?

Christ starts His work within a believer well before He is ready to pour out the Latter Rain. I can "look back" now and see that was true of my wife and me - when, at the time, I could not. In my conversion testimony, most of your questions will be answered.

The most noticeable signs of receiving the Latter Rain is having your faith increased and your spiritual blindness healed.

Here is what scripture says about a believer's moment of conversion. If a person has not experienced what these verses say, then they have not been converted.

Mat 24:14 “And this gospel of the kingdom (this is referring to Satan's "another gospel") will be preached in all the world (this is the believer) as a witness to all the nations (this is their beliefs), and then the end will come (conversion). 15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

2Thes 2:8 And then shall that Wicked (man of sin) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder and RAIN; that ye may perceive and see that your wickedness is great, which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

After Christ gives a believer the Latter Rain, their spiritual blindness will be healed and they will "see" that all the time they thought they were following Christ, they were, in fact, following Satan under his deceptions in the apostate church.

2Cor 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

With eyes that can see spiritually, a believer will come out of Satan's deceptions because Christ is now appearing to them for the first time. This is the same "brightness of His coming" which Paul says destroys the man of sin.

When Christ appears, the knowledge of Him will encompass the believer's entire mind - east to west in the heavens:

Mat 24:27 “For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

When this happened to me in 2005, it was an amazing experience. My love and joy for Christ soared like never before.

Peter describes the second coming this way:

Acts 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven (our mind) above, and signs in the earth (our spirit/spiritual nature) beneath; blood (Christ's blood of the New Covenant), and fire (judgment), and vapour of smoke (Rev 18:9) 20 The (natural) sun (Satan/mankind's father) shall be turned into darkness, and the moon (bondwoman/carnal spiritual nature/mankind's mother) into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

During the conversion process, the believer will receive a new Sun and new Moon because they have been "born again". The new Sun (Christ/child of God's Father) and the new Moon (Freewoman/spiritual nature of the Holy Spirit/child of God's Mother) will then begin teaching us "truth" from the light that they give off.

I will now post my conversion testimony in my next post.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

At the same time I don’t think I’ve experienced “the appearance of Christ” by the way I understand the appearance of Christ. But instead I still wait and hope for His appearance. My question is how did you know? What happened in 2005 that is key to you for the later Rain? To be clearer…in the church often it is “have you received the Spirit and spoke in tongues?” can you help me understand what happened in 2005 that was unique?

Conversion Testimony of Joe & Julie Edwards

In the year 2000, I relocated to Fayetteville, Arkansas with my wife and three sons. We visited many churches during those first years there but we never could find any that seemed to have a real love for the Lord. After our own personal study of the scripture, we decided that we wanted to be baptized in the name of Jesus instead of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit as we had done many years ago. We could not find any churches that would baptize this way until we talked to a friend who went to a Oneness Pentecostal church. They agreed to baptize us in the name of Jesus so we decided to go there and be baptized, even though we were from a Church of Christ/Baptist type background.

Four weeks after we were baptized, my wife was filled with the Spirit at home and started speaking in tongues. It was a very powerful experience with her. She spent a great deal of time on her knees in tears, speaking in tongues as she prayed. We didn't really know what to think of it since we came from a church background which denied tongues.

A few weeks went by and she would still go on her knees in prayer every day and the Spirit would speak through her in tongues until one day as she spoke, the words changed into English. We soon realized that she was prophesying in the Spirit. We had never even heard of this gift before and were greatly amazed by it. Over the next year & a half, she received "words" (that is what we call them) from the Lord more than two dozen times. One of the words she received told us that the Lord had great treasure for us if we would continue seeking him.

I will quote it to you:

"I am. I know your heart. Seek Me and I will be found. Look deep into My Word. The truth is not to be given by man but only revealed by Me. It is for those whose hearts desire it above the treasures of this world. You must give up all and treasure you will receive. I am the truth and the only way. I am the Lord."

Julie received this "word" in July 2004. I know what you are thinking - I wouldn't have believed it is real either if someone were to tell me about it happening to someone else. I was not sure whether to believe it or not for a long time. But after a few months, I did come to believe it was really from the Lord because the things she prayed over and received "words" concerning, would come to pass just as she prophesied.

Then on Tuesday, October 4th, 2005, I saw a story on my computer concerning a young Muslim boy (age 12) who had just lived through a recent earthquake in Pakistan. After reading the story, my heart really felt for him and what He had just went through (he lost his parents). That evening in prayer at home, the image of the boy came back to me and I grieved for him as I prayed. I was not grieving for him just because of what he suffered in the earthquake. I was grieving for him because I thought he was going to be eternally lost and that he didn’t have a realistic chance of being saved. I couldn't understand why I had been blessed with the opportunity to know the Lord and why he had virtually no opportunity since he lived in a Muslim country. I asked the Lord why this was the case. I was so confused and couldn't understand why he was most likely going to hell just because of where he had been born.

Almost three days had passed since I had prayed that prayer and I had not given it much more thought. Then on Friday, Oct. 7, 2005, I had some extra time at work so I decided to study "end-time" prophecy on the internet (my great passion). I conducted a google search and a list of websites came up. From the list, I noticed Ray Smith's website called bible-truths.com. I thought it looked interesting so I clicked on it. By the next morning, I had read his Lake of Fire series for a few hours and was now on the fourth part. I couldn't believe what I had been reading but I still felt compelled to continue reading it anyway. Later that same morning (Saturday, Oct. 8, 2005), I took a break from my reading to pray about it. I prayed for the Lord to open my eyes if what Ray Smith had written was true. I then went back to reading and was still on the fourth part when the Lord suddenly opened my eyes. I became overjoyed at the new truth the Lord had just revealed to me! It was joy like I had never felt before in my life.

It was at that moment that I remembered my prayer from earlier in the week concerning the Muslim boy. Immediately, I knew that this new truth which the Lord had just shown me was the answer to that prayer. I was overjoyed again. I then decided to find Julie (she was in the kitchen) and share with her what the Lord had just revealed to me. I explained to her what I had been reading and pointed out the supporting scriptures. Within 30 minutes, she was filled with the Spirit and began praising the Lord because of the new knowledge of the truth which He had just revealed to her, too.

Over the next few weeks, Julie and I studied scripture every day and learned many new truths. When we decided to share those new truths with our friends at church, they could not accept any of them. As a result, we quickly left the church and never returned.

In just a few short weeks, Julie and I had learned so much from our studies that nearly everything we knew before as “truth”, we now knew to be lies from Satan. I could hardly believe how spiritually blind we had been before. It was an earthshaking spiritual experience for us.

Now from scripture, we have come to understand what just happened in both our lives; the Lord had come to us a second time, baptized us with His Spirit (Latter Rain) and healed our spiritual blindness. Now with “eyes that can see”, the Lord appeared to us from scripture for the very first time. We found the treasure mentioned in Julie’s prophecy from July 2004. We didn't even remember her receiving that "word" until I stumbled across it a few days later in an old email I had sent to a family member. When I reminded her of it and read it to her, she was filled with tears of joy.

The next day, Julie received another "word" from the Lord. It said:

"I will answer. I have shown you the truth in My Word. It is only revealed to those who seek it. It is by faith. It is for those who seek to know Me. I will bring all before My judgment, which is righteous and true. I will complete all things as I have committed to do by My Word. The things of the Spirit cannot be understood by man, even if I reveal it. It will be as I have spoken it. Some will hear and not believe. Some will hear and search but will desire the favor of men more than Me. Some will hear and seek understanding, and by faith I will show them. These will be few. These few will rejoice as one who has found great treasure! Keep seeking, remain faithful and I will give abundant blessings. You ask of Yahweh. I Am that I Am, come to men to show them the Light. Of the One, from and in the One when all things are completed as it was established before time. All will be brought to life in the One. It will not then be needful to show man God or give man His Spirit. Man cannot receive more because he cannot understand".

After our conversion, Julie received prophecies less and less. Below is a prophecy she received on March 5, 2008 and as it turned out, it was the last one she received.

"I am with you. I hear your prayers. You will know my Word when you are able to receive it. I am preparing you for my work. You have much to learn about yourself. You will show others my way. I will prepare you for the work I give you. I am doing my work in you. I am the Lord".

This verse applies as to why she ceased receiving "words":

1Cor 13:8 Charity never fails: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Over the years since our conversion, the Lord has blessed us beyond anything we could have imagined.

And as we have been “freely given”, we now freely give to those who truly seek to know the Lord. This is our work the Lord has given us.

 

[FaithWillDo]

One question I have is how did you know you received the later rain? I ask because you mentioned a time when your world was turned upside down. I can relate. For example …about six years ago things happened and for the first time I was truly interested in God. But also the first thing I did was head to the church, visiting all sorts of denominations for several years. As I mentioned I had all the healing verses people told me about taped to my walls. To make it short …like the passage from Job things started to change. I agree with you about all the healings Jesus Christ did showing, revealing, what God is doing in the Spirit. You make sense about hell and the false doctrines of men. You make sense about a lot. the way I see now from before is a one-eighty(or a complete turn about) from the girl who prayed for God to make it so I don’t need glasses (literally). because if God can heal eye sight then I shouldn’t need glasses(literally)…so convinced by faith healers. I know. Sounds crazy but I use to think wearing glasses was a shame. I was convinced I should pray and have enough faith in God and He would take the need to wear glasses away restoring my eye sight. Of course this would be a sign(to me) because I had a bigger problem in need of healing…Multiple sclerosis. Now I see …He IS healing my eyesight but it has nothing to do with wearing (literal) glasses.

At the same time I don’t think I’ve experienced “the appearance of Christ” by the way I understand the appearance of Christ. But instead I still wait and hope for His appearance. My question is how did you know? What happened in 2005 that is key to you for the later Rain? To be clearer…in the church often it is “have you received the Spirit and spoke in tongues?” can you help me understand what happened in 2005 that was unique?

Dear VictoryinJesus,
I wanted to explain about "tongues" but I forgot to do it in my first post.

Here is what my wife experienced:

1Cor 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

My wife experienced praying in an unknown tongue (a heavenly language) and singing in the Spirit. She never experienced what these verses present:

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

Speaking in "tongues" as this scripture above shows is actually speaking in another language (like French, Italian, etc.). This was necessary back in the 1st century to help spread the gospel. But nowadays, I don't think this gift is given any longer - at least I have never witnessed it.

The "tongues" that I have witnessed in the church are mostly (if not all) FALSE. Those tongues are not other known languages like Acts 2:4-6 shows but are said to be (by the church) a heavenly language like Paul mentions in 1Cor 14:14 - but that type of tongues is for the edification of the individual who is praying and not for the church:

1Cor 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. 4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

I find nowhere in scripture that "tongues" (a heavenly language) is ever used for edifying the church because "no man understandeth him". That type of tongues is only for the individual who is praying in that tongue and only God understands what is said. Tongues in other known languages is for edifying the church.

I remember in the Pentecostal church where we last attended, some people would from time to time, stand up in the service and begin speaking in tongues (supposedly a heavenly language). The pastor would then tell the congregation the message that was spoken. However, this is not scriptural at all and was false.

My wife stills prays in tongues once in a while but nothing like she used to in 2004 - 2008. As for her prophesying, that gift ended in 2008.

As for me, I have never spoke in tongues like Acts 2:4-6 shows and I have never prayed in tongues like my wife does.

Tongues is one of the gifts of the Spirit and not everyone receives that gift. My primary gifts that I received were the gifts of wisdom and knowledge:

1Cor 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

Since I was a small boy, I usually ended my prayers asking for "wisdom and understanding". Looking back at all those years, I can find no reason for me to have done that except that the Lord put it in my heart to do so. It is amazing how God works in our lives even from the time we are young. I am so grateful for what He has given to me and I thank Him nearly every day for it.

Don't believe anyone who tells you that speaking in tongues always accompanies the baptism of the Spirit (Latter Rain). That is not true.

Joe

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Dear VictoryinJesus,
I wanted to explain about "tongues" but I forgot to do it in my first post.

Here is what my wife experienced:

1Cor 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

My wife experienced praying in an unknown tongue (a heavenly language) and singing in the Spirit. She never experienced what these verses present:

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

Speaking in "tongues" as this scripture above shows is actually speaking in another language (like French, Italian, etc.). This was necessary back in the 1st century to help spread the gospel. But nowadays, I don't think this gift is given any longer - at least I have never witnessed it.

The "tongues" that I have witnessed in the church are mostly (if not all) FALSE. Those tongues are not other known languages like Acts 2:4-6 shows but are said to be (by the church) a heavenly language like Paul mentions in 1Cor 14:14 - but that type of tongues is for the edification of the individual who is praying and not for the church:

1Cor 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. 4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

I find nowhere in scripture that "tongues" (a heavenly language) is ever used for edifying the church because "no man understandeth him". That type of tongues is only for the individual who is praying in that tongue and only God understands what is said. Tongues in other known languages is for edifying the church.

I remember in the Pentecostal church where we last attended, some people would from time to time, stand up in the service and begin speaking in tongues (supposedly a heavenly language). The pastor would then tell the congregation the message that was spoken. However, this is not scriptural at all and was false.

My wife stills prays in tongues once in a while but nothing like she used to in 2004 - 2008. As for her prophesying, that gift ended in 2008.

As for me, I have never spoke in tongues like Acts 2:4-6 shows and I have never prayed in tongues like my wife does.

Tongues is one of the gifts of the Spirit and not everyone receives that gift. My primary gifts that I received were the gifts of wisdom and knowledge:

1Cor 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

Since I was a small boy, I usually ended my prayers asking for "wisdom and understanding". Looking back at all those years, I can find no reason for me to have done that except that the Lord put it in my heart to do so. It is amazing how God works in our lives even from the time we are young. I am so grateful for what He has given to me and I thank Him nearly every day for it.

Don't believe anyone who tells you that speaking in tongues always accompanies the baptism of the Spirit (Latter Rain). That is not true.

Joe

Thank you for sharing your wife and your conversion story after I asked the question I did remember reading your conversion story the first time we spoke a while back. I did visit the link to your conversion story back then. To be honest tongues is always a red flag for me. My husband and I visited a church back during that time we were visiting churches and we were locked in a church that asserted “you have to speak in tongues”. They shut the doors and said everyone had to participate. The lady leading at the front while everyone joined in speaking in tongues glared at my husband who had refused to join in. I sat quietly beside him really uncomfortable in my own skin. The lady stirred up my husband but not in a good way. When we left that was it…he said we would not be going back there. I get almost everyone says “but that is false tongues.” It is hard for me to distinguish between the false and true. I have questions but I’m not going to ask them because I know it would hurt your wife’s feelings. As if I’m questioning her directly. So I will keep my question to myself. I am not dismissing everything you both shared with me which I can’t deny is insightful and helpful. But tongues is always a red flag for me.

 

[amadeus]

Thank you for sharing your wife and your conversion story after I asked the question I did remember reading your conversion story the first time we spoke a while back. I did visit the link to your conversion story back then. To be honest tongues is always a red flag for me. My husband and I visited a church back during that time we were visiting churches and we were locked in a church that asserted “you have to speak in tongues”. They shut the doors and said everyone had to participate. The lady leading at the front while everyone joined in speaking in tongues glared at my husband who had refused to join in. I sat quietly beside him really uncomfortable in my own skin. The lady stirred up my husband but not in a good way. When we left that was it…he said we would not be going back there. I get almost everyone says “but that is false tongues.” It is hard for me to distinguish between the false and true. I have questions but I’m not going to ask them because I know it would hurt your wife’s feelings. As if I’m questioning her directly. So I will keep my question to myself. I am not dismissing everything you both shared with me which I can’t deny is insightful and helpful. But tongues is always a red flag for me.

Oh my! I have been speaking in tongues for many years, but I also would have left such an assembly as you describe here. We should be led by the Spirit and if we be it speaking in tongues or otherwise [speaking in our own language], let it be as the Spirit gives us utterance... not as people push us. God does not twist people's arms to get them to serve Him and neither should we. Speaking in tongues is a gift of God, not a requirement for salvation. That is what I have believed for many years.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Thank you for sharing your wife and your conversion story after I asked the question I did remember reading your conversion story the first time we spoke a while back. I did visit the link to your conversion story back then. To be honest tongues is always a red flag for me. My husband and I visited a church back during that time we were visiting churches and we were locked in a church that asserted “you have to speak in tongues”. They shut the doors and said everyone had to participate. The lady leading at the front while everyone joined in speaking in tongues glared at my husband who had refused to join in. I sat quietly beside him really uncomfortable in my own skin. The lady stirred up my husband but not in a good way. When we left that was it…he said we would not be going back there. I get almost everyone says “but that is false tongues.” It is hard for me to distinguish between the false and true. I have questions but I’m not going to ask them because I know it would hurt your wife’s feelings. As if I’m questioning her directly. So I will keep my question to myself. I am not dismissing everything you both shared with me which I can’t deny is insightful and helpful. But tongues is always a red flag for me.

Dear VictoryinJesus,
As a presented earlier, the tongues which is for the edification of the church and is a sign for unbelievers is another language that mankind already speaks (French, Italian, etc.) This is the type of tongues that should be spoken out loud in the churches, but only if there is an interpreter. If there is no one in the church who can interpret that particular language, the speaker should remain silent because it edifies no one.

1Cor 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

1Cor 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues (languages) and other lips will I speak unto this people (just like in Acts 2:4-6); and yet for all that will they not hear me (they do not have "ears that can hear"), saith the Lord. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

The tongues in the church you attended was obviously false and unscriptural. It was nothing more than learned gibberish. This is definitely a red flag. This false type of tongues was also what Julie and I witnessed in the Pentecostal church we last attended. It was nothing more than a carnal display of the flesh and a learned behavior. It seems that the church you attended was trying to force you to learn this gibberish, too.

The only tongues which occurs in a heavenly language, usually only happens when the Spirit makes intercession for a person in their prayers.

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered (expressed in man's words). 27 And he that searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because he makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

There are the only two types of tongues:

The FIRST TYPE of tongues is the intercession of the Spirit and it usually occurs during a believer's prayer time but not completely so. It can happen anytime because it is the Spirit who is making intercession for the believer as it is needed. It is done in groanings (a heavenly language) which cannot be expressed by man's words and can only be understood by God. It is very private matter between the individual and God, just as prayer is:

Mat 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet (innermost part of the heart), and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

This is how Christ applied prayer in His own life:

Luke 5:16 And he withdrew himself into the wilderness, and prayed.

Luke 22:41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,

I do not believe in public prayer as it is commonly done in this world. A simple "giving thanks" or prayer in a small private setting is sometimes shown in scripture, but that type of prayer is not the same as what Christ was teaching in the above verse or the same as when the Spirit makes intercession for us.

The SECOND TYPE of tongues is the one which is done in one of man's known earthly languages. It is a sign for unbelievers and for the edification of the church (when a person can interpret it for the church). Unlike the first type of tongues, it is very public.

These two types of "tongues" are the only two that I have ever been able to find presented in scripture. What you and I have seen in the apostate churches is false and a lie from Satan.

2Thes 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

My wife has only experienced the first type of tongues which I mentioned above. Her gift of prophesying which she used to have was something separate and is not "tongues".

I hope this better explains my last post.

Joe

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Dear VictoryinJesus,
As a presented earlier, the tongues which is for the edification of the church and is a sign for unbelievers is another language that mankind already speaks (French, Italian, etc.) This is the type of tongues that should be spoken out loud in the churches, but only if there is an interpreter. If there is no one in the church who can interpret that particular language, the speaker should remain silent because it edifies no one.

1Cor 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

1Cor 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues (languages) and other lips will I speak unto this people (just like in Acts 2:4-6); and yet for all that will they not hear me (they do not have "ears that can hear"), saith the Lord. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

The tongues in the church you attended was obviously false and unscriptural. It was nothing more than learned gibberish. This is definitely a red flag. This false type of tongues was also what Julie and I witnessed in the Pentecostal church we last attended. It was nothing more than a carnal display of the flesh and a learned behavior. It seems that the church you attended was trying to force you to learn this gibberish, too.

The only tongues which occurs in a heavenly language, usually only happens when the Spirit makes intercession for a person in their prayers.

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered (expressed in man's words). 27 And he that searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because he makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

There are the only two types of tongues:

The FIRST TYPE of tongues is the intercession of the Spirit and it usually occurs during a believer's prayer time but not completely so. It can happen anytime because it is the Spirit who is making intercession for the believer as it is needed. It is done in groanings (a heavenly language) which cannot be expressed by man's words and can only be understood by God. It is very private matter between the individual and God, just as prayer is:

Mat 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet (innermost part of the heart), and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

This is how Christ applied prayer in His own life:

Luke 5:16 And he withdrew himself into the wilderness, and prayed.

Luke 22:41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,

I do not believe in public prayer as it is commonly done in this world. A simple "giving thanks" or prayer in a small private setting is sometimes shown in scripture, but that type of prayer is not the same as what Christ was teaching in the above verse or the same as when the Spirit makes intercession for us.

The SECOND TYPE of tongues is the one which is done in one of man's known earthly languages. It is a sign for unbelievers and for the edification of the church (when a person can interpret it for the church). Unlike the first type of tongues, it is very public.

These two types of "tongues" are the only two that I have ever been able to find presented in scripture. What you and I have seen in the apostate churches is false and a lie from Satan.

2Thes 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

My wife has only experienced the first type of tongues which I mentioned above. Her gift of prophesying which she used to have was something separate and is not "tongues".

I hope this better explains my last post.

Joe

Thank you for clarifying. I’m not trying to speak against tongues. Personally I’m just questionable because I don’t know if I’ve ever seen the real thing. To me speaking in tongues is what you have done here in your post…speaking in a Spiritual language not heard. Towards edification. When you say “I haven’t been given that gift.” I’m not so sure by reading your post.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Oh my! I have been speaking in tongues for many years, but I also would have left such an assembly as you describe here. We should be led by the Spirit and if we be it speaking in tongues or otherwise [speaking in our own language], let it be as the Spirit gives us utterance... not as people push us. God does not twist people's arms to get them to serve Him and neither should we. Speaking in tongues is a gift of God, not a requirement for salvation. That is what I have believed for many years.

I always thought Byrd spoke in tongues here on the board. I don’t know how many times I read people saying to him “you speak nonsense. You make no sense to us.”

 

[amadeus]

I always thought Byrd spoke in tongues here on the board. I don’t know how many times I read people saying to him “you speak nonsense. You make no sense to us.”

In the beginning, I understood only a little of what he wrote but as time went by I was understanding nearly all that he posted. He is greatly missed by me. He just disappeared. I had his e-mail address and tried him contacting that way as well as the forum. The email messages indicated it was not a good address. I hope he lives on but have no way of knowing.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

In the beginning, I understood only a little of what he wrote but as time went by I was understanding nearly all that he posted. He is greatly missed by me. He just disappeared. I had his e-mail address and tried him contacting that way as well as the forum. The email messages indicated it was not a good address. I hope he lives on but have no way of knowing.

Miss him too. I do hope he is well and keeping strong. I’m not worried because even if he is not…he strikes me as someone that was (is)content just doing what he can until he can’t anymore. Either way I think Byrd is okay.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Thank you for clarifying. I’m not trying to speak against tongues. Personally I’m just questionable because I don’t know if I’ve ever seen the real thing. To me speaking in tongues is what you have done here in your post…speaking in a Spiritual language not heard. Towards edification. When you say “I haven’t been given that gift.” I’m not so sure by reading your post.

Dear VictoryinJesus,
I don't believe I have ever witnessed the "real thing" either as scripture defines "tongues". I believe that the true gift of tongues is very rare nowadays because the 1st century church is now apostate. And because the church is now apostate, the Holy Spirit is mostly quiet. I believe that the signs and wonders that we do witness are the lying signs and wonders of the spirit of anti-Christ.

I have been studying a great deal about "tongues" in the past 24 hours and discussing it with my wife. One thing that I will say is that scripture does not give enough detail to answer all the questions one may have about tongues. Because of this lack of detail, it causes people to make assumptions about tongues which may or may not be true.

When I use only the information provided by scripture, I find that "tongues" is the gift of speaking in other earthly languages for the purpose of giving a sign to unbelievers.

1Cor 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

And when the "tongues" is interpreted, its message can also be beneficial to the church.

Nowhere in scripture does it ever say that "tongues" can also be a heavenly language that is not spoken on earth.

Here is the example given in Acts:

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. 12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

When a person says that "tongues" can also be a heavenly language, they are making an unsupportable assumption. Also, if "tongues" can be a heavenly language, how would that be a sign for unbelievers (the primary reason for tongues) since they would not be able to understand the message which teaches the "wonderful works of God"?

In 1Cor 14, Paul talks about "unknown tongues" but that does not mean that the tongue is a heavenly language. It very well could be that when Paul refers to an "unknown tongue", he is only talking about an earthly language that is unknown to those who are present. And from what Acts 2:4-11 presents, that would be the logical conclusion to make.

Now for what my wife experiences:

I have decided to back away from using the term "tongues" to describe what my wife experiences during her private prayer time. Scripturally speaking, what she experiences is not "tongues" as I defined above. What my wife experiences (and this only happens on rare occasions anymore) is the Spirit making intercession for her in her prayers. It is not meant for public consummation as is "tongues".

Here is the first of two scriptures which I found that apply to what my wife experiences in her prayer time:

1Cor 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.

Paul says that the Spirit can pray through him in an unknown tongue, and because of such, his understanding is unfruitful. I believe that this "unknown tongue" is not an earthly language but a heavenly language - possibly the same "tongues of angels" which Paul mentions here:

1Cor 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

I will admit that I cannot support my conclusion on what language the "unknown tongue" actually is by what is recorded in scripture. But from my observation of my wife's prayers, I believe that the "unknown tongue" that she speaks is not a language that is spoken by mankind. I believe that when the Spirit is speaking through her, it does so in a heavenly language - and that this language could possibly be the same "tongues of angels" that Paul mentions above. But as I said, I cannot prove this belief by scripture. Scripture simply does not give us enough detail on this subject.

Here is the second scripture I found concerning the Spirit praying through a believer:

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered (expressed in man's words). 27 And he that searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because he makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

The Spirit first started praying through my wife in an unknown tongue about a year and a half prior to our conversion. At that time, my wife and I did not realize that we were in a lost and fallen away spiritual state (worse than the first, Mat 12:43-45). Because my wife and I knew "not what we should pray for as we ought", the Spirit prayed for us.

Frequently, when the Spirit prayed through my wife, my wife would cry uncontrollably. At that time, we could not understand why this was happening. But looking back now, we can see how grieved the Spirit was about our fallen away spiritual condition. After my wife and I were converted, the Spirit began praying through my wife less and less but it did not end completely. Even to this day, my wife still experiences the Spirit praying through her on occasion.

Joe

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Dear VictoryinJesus,
I don't believe I have ever witnessed the "real thing" either as scripture defines "tongues". I believe that the true gift of tongues is very rare nowadays because the 1st century church is now apostate. And because the church is now apostate, the Holy Spirit is mostly quiet. I believe that the signs and wonders that we do witness are the lying signs and wonders of the spirit of anti-Christ.

I have been studying a great deal about "tongues" in the past 24 hours and discussing it with my wife. One thing that I will say is that scripture does not give enough detail to answer all the questions one may have about tongues. Because of this lack of detail, it causes people to make assumptions about tongues which may or may not be true.

When I use only the information provided by scripture, I find that "tongues" is the gift of speaking in other earthly languages for the purpose of giving a sign to unbelievers.

1Cor 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

And when the "tongues" is interpreted, its message can also be beneficial to the church.

Nowhere in scripture does it ever say that "tongues" can also be a heavenly language that is not spoken on earth.

Here is the example given in Acts:

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. 12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

When a person says that "tongues" can also be a heavenly language, they are making an unsupportable assumption. Also, if "tongues" can be a heavenly language, how would that be a sign for unbelievers (the primary reason for tongues) since they would not be able to understand the message which teaches the "wonderful works of God"?

In 1Cor 14, Paul talks about "unknown tongues" but that does not mean that the tongue is a heavenly language. It very well could be that when Paul refers to an "unknown tongue", he is only talking about an earthly language that is unknown to those who are present. And from what Acts 2:4-11 presents, that would be the logical conclusion to make.

Now for what my wife experiences:

I have decided to back away from using the term "tongues" to describe what my wife experiences during her private prayer time. Scripturally speaking, what she experiences is not "tongues" as I defined above. What my wife experiences (and this only happens on rare occasions anymore) is the Spirit making intercession for her in her prayers. It is not meant for public consummation as is "tongues".

Here is the first of two scriptures which I found that apply to what my wife experiences in her prayer time:

1Cor 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.

Paul says that the Spirit can pray through him in an unknown tongue, and because of such, his understanding is unfruitful. I believe that this "unknown tongue" is not an earthly language but a heavenly language - possibly the same "tongues of angels" which Paul mentions here:

1Cor 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

I will admit that I cannot support my conclusion on what language the "unknown tongue" actually is by what is recorded in scripture. But from my observation of my wife's prayers, I believe that the "unknown tongue" that she speaks is not a language that is spoken by mankind. I believe that when the Spirit is speaking through her, it does so in a heavenly language - and that this language could possibly be the same "tongues of angels" that Paul mentions above. But as I said, I cannot prove this belief by scripture. Scripture simply does not give us enough detail on this subject.

Here is the second scripture I found concerning the Spirit praying through a believer:

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered (expressed in man's words). 27 And he that searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because he makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

The Spirit first started praying through my wife in an unknown tongue about a year and a half prior to our conversion. At that time, my wife and I did not realize that we were in a lost and fallen away spiritual state (worse than the first, Mat 12:43-45). Because my wife and I knew "not what we should pray for as we ought", the Spirit prayed for us.

Frequently, when the Spirit prayed through my wife, my wife would cry uncontrollably. At that time, we could not understand why this was happening. But looking back now, we can see how grieved the Spirit was about our fallen away spiritual condition. After my wife and I were converted, the Spirit began praying through my wife less and less but it did not end completely. Even to this day, my wife still experiences the Spirit praying through her on occasion.

Joe

You don’t need to convince me. I will say my mind goes back to praying once…I was sitting on my knees at our glass door looking outside. I can’t even remember what I was praying about. But I do remember right in the middle of praying a peculiar sound came out. It was brief. It seemed uncontrollable. It seemed foreign in my mouth. It’s never happened again so I’m not bashing or saying it’s not possible.

All I’m saying is I also can relate to the book of proverbs or the Song of Solomon being in an unknown tongue. I remember going to a church and they asked everyone to read at least a few verses of proverbs the goal was for us to make it through the whole book. Oh wow it was labour intense. I seriously thought “is this in another language because none of it makes a lick of sense.” It is strange how often you hear people say that same thing about the bible. “It doesn’t make any sense. That is why I never read it.” It is strange when it starts to not sound like it’s written in a foreign language. You start to look around wondering “who unscrambled this?”