Don’t be afraid of sudden fear and desolation of the wicked: For the Lord shall be your confidence.

[VictoryinJesus]

Proverbs 3:25-26 Be not afraid of sudden fear, neither of the desolation of the wicked, when it cometh. [26] For the LORD shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken.

There is a lot of Hope in the above from Proverbs.

Don’t be afraid when it comes to destroy the wicked that the Spirit may be saved.

When what comes?
Romans 7:5-12 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. [6] But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. [7] What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. [8] But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. [9] For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. [10] And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. [11] For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. [12] Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Proverbs 3:25-26 Be not afraid of sudden fear, neither of the desolation of the wicked, when it cometh. [26] For the LORD shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken.

Galatians 2:19-20 For through the Law I died to the Law, (sin taking occasion by the law, by it, sin slew me. That it might become exceedingly sinful) (yet fear not when it comes to destroy the wicked…the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. the Lord shall be your confidence) so that I might live for God. [20] I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; (fear not when it comes; for your confidence shall be in the Lord.) and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith (Confidence) in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

 

[ScottA]

Proverbs 3:25-26 Be not afraid of sudden fear, neither of the desolation of the wicked, when it cometh. [26] For the LORD shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken.

There is a lot of Hope in the above from Proverbs.

Don’t be afraid when it comes to destroy the wicked that the Spirit may be saved.

When what comes?
Romans 7:5-12 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. [6] But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. [7] What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. [8] But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. [9] For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. [10] And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. [11] For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. [12] Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Proverbs 3:25-26 Be not afraid of sudden fear, neither of the desolation of the wicked, when it cometh. [26] For the LORD shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken.

Galatians 2:19-20 For through the Law I died to the Law, (sin taking occasion by the law, by it, sin slew me. That it might become exceedingly sinful) (yet fear not when it comes to destroy the wicked…the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. the Lord shall be your confidence) so that I might live for God. [20] I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; (fear not when it comes; for your confidence shall be in the Lord.) and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith (Confidence) in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

This is a good word for current world events.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Proverbs 3:25-26 Be not afraid of sudden fear, neither of the desolation of the wicked, when it cometh. [26] For the LORD shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken.

There is a lot of Hope in the above from Proverbs.

Don’t be afraid when it comes to destroy the wicked that the Spirit may be saved.

Dear VictoryinJesus,

You quoted:
Proverbs 3:25-26 Be not afraid of sudden fear, neither of the desolation of the wicked, when it cometh. [26] For the LORD shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken.

This scripture above is referring to a believer's moment of conversion.

Conversion happens when Christ "comes again" to a believer. Conversion is what the Apostles experienced on the Day of Pentecost and what Paul experienced after being in Damascus for 3 days.

When Christ comes the second time to one of His Elect, He will baptize them with the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain) and with fire (judgment):

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with Fire.

Conversion is a spiritual process and happens within a person. The child of God is born when a person receives the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The Man of Sin/Great Harlot (what causes their carnality) is destroyed by the baptism of fire (Christ's judgment). After the conversion process is complete, all that will remain is the new child of God.

Conversion is what this scripture teaches:

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

The "marred vessel" is mankind who is carnal and sinful. That vessel will be destroyed by the judgment of Christ (baptism of fire) during the person's conversion.

The verse below also teaches about the spiritual process of conversion:

1Thes 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The "woman with child" comes from the birthing analogy used in scripture. The child represents the new child of God who is being born. The "sudden destruction" represents the baptism of fire which comes upon the marred vessel (Man of Sin & Great Harlot).

These two scriptures below teach on the judgment portion of conversion:

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken (Man of Sin/spirit of anti-Christ), and the other left (newly born child of God). 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken (Great Harlot/carnal nature), and the other left.

And this one, too:

Isa 66:16 For by fire (baptism of fire/Christ's judgment) and by his sword (the Word of God) will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

Conversion is being taught here, too:

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

The word "sword" is a spirit word (John 6:63) which represents the Word of God who is Christ. When a person receives the Early Rain of the Spirit from Christ, they will take up the Sword (Christ) and begin following Him. When Christ comes to them a second time to convert them, He will destroy the "marred vessel" (Man of Sin/Great Harlot) by His sword.

Paul describes that destruction here:

2Thes 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The "brightness of His coming" is referring to the time just after the believer receives the baptism of the Spirit. With the new birth, the believer is given "eyes that can see". At that time, the Man of Sin will be revealed to the believer (this is same as when they "see" the Abomination of Desolation in Mat 24:15). From this knowledge of the truth (brightness of His coming/Sword), the Man of Sin will be destroyed.

You said:
Don’t be afraid when it comes to destroy the wicked that the Spirit may be saved.

Considering what I presented above, is that what your comment above means? Are you saying that the "wicked" is within each of us and that it must be destroyed so that we are saved (converted)?

Joe

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Considering what I presented above, is that what your comment above means? Are you saying that the "wicked" is within each of us and that it must be destroyed so that we are saved (converted)?

Yes. When it was the verse of the day and it popped up …it was the first time I took it personally. But there was also comfort in it at the part of “Your confidence shall be in the Lord.” It reminds me too of John speaking of “I must decrease” and “He must increase” comfort (Imo) in “do not be afraid” or even though the outward man perishes, the inward man is being renewed.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Yes. When it was the verse of the day and it popped up …it was the first time I took it personally. But there was also comfort in it at the part of “Your confidence shall be in the Lord.” It reminds me too of John speaking of “I must decrease” and “He must increase” comfort (Imo) in “do not be afraid” or even though the outward man perishes, the inward man is being renewed.

DearVictoryinJesus,
Yes, the Elect should not fear judgment but welcome it. It is the only way to be made into a child of God. The old vessel must be destroyed so that the new vessel can be made.

Did you know that judgment has two parts to it?

The judgment (baptism of fire) which occurs with the conversion process is what we experience first. That judgment removes the spirit of anti-Christ (False Prophet) and our carnal spiritual nature (the Great Harlot) from within us and casts them into the Lake of Fire for destruction. That judgment is described in Rev chapter 19 here:

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Because the Elect are "born again" prior to that judgment occurring, they do not experience wrath during it. In fact, chapter 19 shows that the Elect (the new child of God/Bride of Christ) reign with Christ to accomplish that judgment (verses 11-19). This is in contrast to the judgment of the "lost" in the final age. They are not "born again" prior to that judgment commencing so they will suffer the wrath of God during it. But before the "lost" perish, Christ will have mercy upon them and give them the faith they need to be saved.

The judgment that I described above is called the Day of the Lord. For the Elect though, the Day of the Lord is also called the Thousand Years Reign:

2Pet 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day (the Day of the Lord) is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

In the rest of the chapter, Peter goes on to describe the events of the Day of the Lord that the Elect will experience.

Note: The Thousand Years Reign also has two parts to it. The first part occurs when the Elect are judged as I mentioned above. The second part of the Thousand Years Reign occurs when the Elect (along with Christ) judge the "lost" in the final age. For that reason, scripture says that the Thousand Years is "twice told" and has "seen no good":

Ecc 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place (Lake of Fire)?

Back to the two parts of judgment. As I said above, the first part happens with conversion and removes & destroys the spirit of anti-Christ and the Great Harlot (mankind's carnal nature). It happens quickly. The second part of judgment applies to the converted believer's remaining carnal mind. The carnal mind is not destroyed quickly at the moment of conversion. It's destruction is a slow process because the new child of God has a lot to unlearn. This second part of judgment is called the chastisement of Christ and it is shown in the final verse of Rev chapter 19:

Rev 19:21 And the rest were slain with the sword (Word of God) of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

This judgment is over the carnal thoughts and beliefs (delivered by fowls/unclean spirits) of the believer's mind which still remain at this point.

Paul calls the carnal mind the "Old Man":

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

John the Baptist is a "type" for the Old Man. You mentioned this verse earlier in your post:

John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

This judgment occurs as the converted believer (who now has "eyes that can see") learns the truth of God. They are chastised by Christ when needed. This judgment causes the New Man to increase and the Old Man to decrease within the believer's mind.

The chastisement of Christ upon a converted believer is also taught by this verse below:

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the (New) earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

As with the way Peter used the term in 2Pet chapter 3, the New Earth represents the new spiritual nature that a converted believer has after they are given the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The Old Earth (carnal spiritual nature) is destroyed and replaced with the New Earth. The chastisements of Christ come from the New Earth (spiritual nature of the Holy Spirit) and that is what teaches the believer the righteous ways of Christ. In other words, the judgments coming from the New Earth will transform the carnal mind (Old Heaven) into the mind of Christ (New Heaven).

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

After the believer's mind has become the mind of Christ, their time of judgment (the Thousand Years Reign) will end. Scripture calls this full process of conversion the First Resurrection (Rev 20:5). It is a spiritual resurrection and not a bodily resurrection. Next, the fully converted believer will be ready for testing. This time of testing was "typed" by Christ when Satan came to Him in the desert after Christ completed His 40 days of fasting. This time of testing is also shown in Rev 20:7-10.

Joe

 

[VictoryinJesus]

DearVictoryinJesus,
Yes, the Elect should not fear judgment but welcome it. It is the only way to be made into a child of God. The old vessel must be destroyed so that the new vessel can be made.

Did you know that judgment has two parts to it?

The judgment (baptism of fire) which occurs with the conversion process is what we experience first. That judgment removes the spirit of anti-Christ (False Prophet) and our carnal spiritual nature (the Great Harlot) from within us and casts them into the Lake of Fire for destruction. That judgment is described in Rev chapter 19 here:

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Because the Elect are "born again" prior to that judgment occurring, they do not experience wrath during it. In fact, chapter 19 shows that the Elect (the new child of God/Bride of Christ) reign with Christ to accomplish that judgment (verses 11-19). This is in contrast to the judgment of the "lost" in the final age. They are not "born again" prior to that judgment commencing so they will suffer the wrath of God during it. But before the "lost" perish, Christ will have mercy upon them and give them the faith they need to be saved.

The judgment that I described above is called the Day of the Lord. For the Elect though, the Day of the Lord is also called the Thousand Years Reign:

2Pet 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day (the Day of the Lord) is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

In the rest of the chapter, Peter goes on to describe the events of the Day of the Lord that the Elect will experience.

Note: The Thousand Years Reign also as two parts to it. The first part occurs when the Elect are judged as I mentioned above. The second part of the Thousand Years Reign occurs when the Elect (along with Christ) judge the "lost" in the final age. For that reason, scripture says that the Thousand Years is "twice told" and has "seen no good":

Ecc 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place (Lake of Fire)?

Back to the two parts of judgment. As I said above, the first part happens with conversion and removes & destroys the spirit of anti-Christ and the Great Harlot (mankind's carnal nature). It happens quickly. The second part of judgment applies to the converted believer's remaining carnal mind. The carnal mind is not destroyed quickly at the moment of conversion. It's destruction is a slow process because the new child of God has a lot to "unlearned". This second part of judgment is called the chastisement of Christ and it is shown in the final verse of Rev chapter 19:

Rev 19:21 And the rest were slain with the sword (Word of God) of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

This judgment is over the carnal thoughts and beliefs (fowls, unclean spirits) of the believer's mind which still remain at this point.

Paul calls the carnal mind the "Old Man":

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

John the Baptist is a "type" for the Old Man. You mentioned this verse earlier in your post:

John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

This judgment occurs as the converted believer (who now has "eyes that can see") learns the truth of God. They are chastised by Christ when needed. This judgment causes the New Man to increase and the Old Man to decrease within the believer's mind.

The chastisement of Christ upon a converted believer is also taught by this verse below:

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the (New) earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

As with the way Peter used the term in 2Pet chapter 3, the New Earth represents the new spiritual nature that a converted believer has after they are given the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The Old Earth (carnal spiritual nature) is destroyed and replaced with the New Earth. The chastisements of Christ come from the New Earth (spiritual nature of the Holy Spirit) and that is what teaches the believer the righteous ways of Christ. In other words, the judgments coming from the New Earth will transform the carnal mind (Old Heaven) into the mind of Christ (New Heaven).

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

After the believer's mind has become the mind of Christ, their time of judgment (the Thousand Years Reign) will end. Scripture calls this full process of conversion the First Resurrection (Rev 20:5). It is a spiritual resurrection and not a bodily resurrection. Next, the fully converted believer will be ready for testing. This time of testing was "typed" by Christ when Satan came to Him in the desert after Christ completed His 40 days of fasting. This time of testing is also shown in Rev 20:7-10.

Joe

Thank you for sharing. I can’t say if I agree or disagree. Are you the member that shared once with me about the first rain and latter rain? Some of what you shared I like, some I’ve never heard of. Especially the stages of conversion. That is new to me. So that is why I can’t say I agree or disagree because I’m sure you’ve studied it, but I haven’t taken the walk to see if it lines up. Or how closely it lines up. I hope that isn’t discouraging but I’ll read it closer and ask questions if I can think of any. Thanks again!

 

[FaithWillDo]

Thank you for sharing. I can’t say if I agree or disagree. Are you the member that shared once with me about the first rain and latter rain? Some of what you shared I like, some I’ve never heard of. Especially the stages of conversion. That is new to me. So that is why I can’t say I agree or disagree because I’m sure you’ve studied it, but I haven’t taken the walk to see if it lines up. Or how closely it lines up. I hope that isn’t discouraging but I’ll read it closer and ask questions if I can think of any. Thanks again!

Dear VictoryinJesus,
Yes, I am the person who presented the teaching of the Early and Latter Rain analogy to you. Since you mentioned it, I want to share a teaching on it.

Scripture says that no man can call Jesus "Lord" without first having the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and that no man who has the Spirit can call Jesus accursed (reject Him).

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

This scripture is very profound and is rejected by most believers as evidenced by their teachings.

Now, let's look at the Apostles as they relate to the Early and Latter Rain analogy.

When did the Apostles first call Jesus "Lord" and recognize Him as the Christ? Was it after they received the baptism of the Spirit (Latter Rain) on the Day of Pentecost or was it when they walked with Jesus in the flesh? The answer, of course, is when they walked with Jesus in the flesh.

So how was that possible in the light of the verse I just quoted?

The answer to that question is that the Apostles, along with many other Jews at that time, were given the Early Rain of the Spirit and were baptized in the name of Jesus in water. With the Early Rain of the Spirit, the Apostles were given a measure of faith and certain spiritual gifts (Luke 9:4-6). This is when they were called out from the world and became followers of Christ (Christians).

Also, at that time, the Apostles remained spiritually blind and carnal in their understanding of Him. They could not understand the spiritual teachings of Christ (Mark 8:21). This truth I've just mentioned is incredibly important when trying to understand the Early and Latter Rains and the pathway to salvation.

When Christ comes to an unbeliever and gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit, Christ will only appear to them carnally and not spiritually. And because Christ is the Word of God, their understanding of the Word is also carnal. In other words, they only have the ability to see Christ "in the flesh" when Christ first came to them. With this carnal understanding of Christ, the truth of God's Word will remain concealed.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Scripture says that the group of people who are called out from the world and into the church are "many". Every believer starts the pathway to salvation in this manner; seeing Christ carnally and not spiritually. For that reason, the churches in the world are places where the blind lead the blind. Then, after Paul's death, the spirit of anti-Christ came into the church and did not spare any of the flock. Since that time, the churches which the Apostles started became apostate. This all happened to satisfy God's purposes and not for any other reason.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Note: Because the church did not fall away from faith until after Paul's death, Paul's writings to the churches show that the Early Rain believers are saved, just not converted (confirmed as Paul said). But since the churches are apostate now, understanding Paul's letters can be difficult if one does not realize this truth.

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

This knowledge of the coming apostasy that was given to Paul was very distressing to him because He loved the churches. It was a very big deal to Paul and we should not take it lightly either.

Most believers in the apostate church will remain spiritually blind, deceived by Satan and unconverted until they die. They simply are not chosen for salvation in this age. This is through no fault of their own.

John said this about apostate believers who have the spirit of anti-Christ:

2John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Believers in the apostate church do not deny that Jesus ever physically walked the earth. However, this is not what John is spiritually teaching here. John is saying that apostate believers will deny that when Christ first appeared to them, that He did so in the flesh. Apostate believers say that when Christ first came to them, He did so in the same manner as He did to the Apostles on the Day of Pentecost. They do see that Christ ever came to them in the flesh and that they (like the Apostles did) must wait on the Lord to return (marriage analogy applies) with the Latter Rain.

For this reason, the Early and Latter Rain analogy is a significant part of the "great mystery" of Christ and His church (Eph 5:32) and that is why it is not understood in the apostate churches of the world.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Continuing now...

For those who are chosen for this early salvation, they were chosen for this blessing from the foundation of the world. And similar to the "many" who were not chosen, the Elect likewise did nothing to cause it to be that way. They were chosen by God solely to satisfy His own purposes for this creation:

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

For the believers who are chosen and who remain in the apostate church, Christ will come to them a second time before they die. This event is commonly called the Second Coming of Christ but it is not correctly understood by the apostate churches. When Christ comes this second time to one of His Elect, He will pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit upon them. After they receive the baptism of the Spirit (like the Apostles did on the Day of Pentecost), their spiritual blindness will be healed. They will then be able to see Christ spiritually instead of carnally. With these new eyes that can see, they will see the Abomination of Desolation that had previously occurred within themselves. When they see this "sign of the times", they are told to flee to the mountains (Mat 24:15) like Lot did because judgment is about to fall.

The story of Lot is an OT "type" for the judgment that falls on an Elect believer just after they receive the Latter Rain. Sodom is a "type" for their carnal spiritual nature (same as the Great Harlot) and Gomorrah is a "type" for the spirit of anti-Christ. Since Lot fled to the mountains, Lot did not suffer wrath during his own judgment. This matches up with the judgment shown in Revelation chapter 19 that I explained to you earlier.

Because salvation requires both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit, Christ will only come a second time to His Elect. This is how Christ controls who among the "many" are saved now and who will die in their sins.

After an Elect believer receives the Latter Rain, they will remove themselves from the apostate church (light cannot fellowship with darkness). Since the Elect are few in number, they are relatively unknown in this world.

If you have any questions, I would be happy to address them with scripture.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Did He come to all men then and give them the early rain? Doesn’t He appear to everyone carnally in the beginning? Even those who show no interest have in some way had a bad experience with being shown Christ carnally??

Dear VictoryinJesus,

You asked:
Did He come to all men then and give them the early rain?

No. Most of mankind is not called out from the world and will remain unbelievers until they die. No one can have any faith in Christ without the Early Rain.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

When a person receives the Early Rain of the Spirit, they will receive a small measure of faith and certain spiritual gifts. Most of the believers Paul writes to in His letters have only received the Early Rain.

Consider this verse:

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, AND to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Paul addresses his letter to TWO groups of Christians. One group is the "saints". They are the Elect who have received both the Early and Latter Rains. The second group is the "faithful". They have only received the Early Rain and have been given a measure of faith (they are faithful).

Now look at Paul's first letter to the Corinthians:

1Cor 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

In this letter, Paul addresses it to believers who have been "called to be saints". They have only received the Early Rain so their election is not certain.

Now look at verses 6-8:

1Cor 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: 7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

In verse 6 and the first part of 7, Paul says that the "testimony of Christ" was confirmed in them and is evidenced by them coming "behind in no gift".

Now the important part: look at the last phrase of verse 7 along with verse 8. Paul says that they are "waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ". With this comment, Paul is reminding them that they are waiting for Christ to come a second time with the Latter Rain. When Christ comes, He will confirm their election so that they are blameless when Christ judges them in the Day of the Lord. As I presented in my earlier posts, judgment will immediately follow receiving the Latter Rain.

With the Latter Rain, a believer will become "blameless" because they will come out from being under the Law. This truth is taught by Christ in John 8:3-10 with the story of the woman taken in adultery. Can you see the Early and Latter Rains in that story? It is only after Christ writes the law of the Spirit in the earth (represents mankind) a second time do the Pharisees drop the stones (represents the Law). It is at this point that the Law can no longer accuse a person. However, the old vessel will still be judged and destroyed as I explained earlier. The new vessel is not judged.

As for "waiting" for Christ to come again, it is the same "waiting" that the Apostles did in the upper room. Paul refers to our time of waiting in this verse below, too:

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

In this verse above, Paul says that Christ appeared the first time in the flesh to take away the sins of many. Though it may not sound like it, Paul is referring to the time when Christ first appears to a believer when He gives them the Early Rain. Paul confirms this way of addressing Early Rain believers in the 2nd chapter to the Corinthians:

1Cor 2:2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

Paul realized that the milk of the Word is all the teaching that they could receive at this time because Christ has only appeared to them in the flesh. Paul confirms this in the next chapter, too, and even says that they are having trouble receiving the milk:

1Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

Since an Early Rain believer remains spiritually blind, Paul knows that he can only speak to them as "babes" who are carnal in their understanding (Christ and Him crucified).

This truth is retold here:

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Read this scripture carefully because it says a lot.

It starts by asking who can be taught knowledge (of God) and the doctrines of Christ. It answers the question in the next sentence by saying that only believers who have been weaned from the breasts can understand. These are believers who have received the Latter Rain and have had their spiritual blindness healed. They are ready to eat bread, meat and drink the New Wine. Until the Latter Rain event, a believer will remain a "babe" who can only drink milk - which is what Paul says about the Corinthians who are only "called to be saints" and are waiting for the second coming of Christ.

Isaiah continues by teaching why babes cannot understand the Word. He says that God's Word is written "line upon line". This means truth must be learned starting from the foundation of Christ (Christ and Him crucified) and then built up from there. A person cannot learn about the deeper truths of God before they learn the milk of the Word. Then to make God's Word even more difficult to understand, truth is taught "here a little and there a little". Truth must be assembled from various places of scripture. I frequently see carnal believers make doctrines from single verses of scripture. By doing this, they err because they fill in the things that the verse is silent on with their own carnal reasoning.

Here is a verse that is commonly misunderstood because of a person using this method:

Jos 24:15 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Carnal believers will say that this verse confirms that mankind has a free will to choose. But the verse is silent on the cause of our choosing. The verse below must be added to Jos 24:15 to have a full understanding:

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

As this verse says, the choice we make is from the Lord. It does not come from any supposed free will ability. To make that choice, Christ will prepare our heart by giving us the Early and Latter Rains. After He does, we can only choose Jesus. Remember the verse I quoted to you in my last post (1Cor 12:3)?

Isaiah continues by saying that God's Word (Christ) speaks to us with stammering lips and another language. That language is Christ's spiritual language which uses "spirit" words in analogies, parables and types. This literally makes understanding God's Word impossible for a carnally minded person (includes Early Rain believers). Because God's Word is impossible to understand without having one's spiritual blindness healed, Satan will come to a new believer and easily deceive them with his carnally pleasing lies. Christ teaches this spiritual process in Mat 12:43-45 and ends His comments by saying that the believer will end up being spiritually "worse than the first". Because an Early Rain believer remains spiritually blind and carnal, Isaiah also says that the end result of the believer is "worse than the first": that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. In other words, the believer will fall from grace, lose their salvation and be snared and taken by Satan. This is why the churches at the end of the 1st century A. D. quickly became apostate after the deaths of the Apostles.

To be able to understand and receive the truth of God's Word, Christ says that a we need both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit. Christ typed this truth in Mark 8:21-25 with the healing of a blind man. Can you see both the Early and Latter Rains in the story? Paul's conversion experience also types that truth.

Joe

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Dear VictoryinJesus,

Maybe nothing I respond back will make sense. As you probably noticed…I deleted the question because afterwards I realized the way I asked about to be carnally minded came off as meaning what I didn’t intend for it to mean. The problem I see with how you (if I understand correctly) suggest that some of the carnally minded have been called out and some have not…how all the called out and the unbelievers are of “one mind” “earthly” yet not the same? One group “called out” “babes” the other group “never babes and never will be” “never called out”. Did i understand that correctly? That divides two groups or a division within the carnal mind(itself): those called out and those who will never be called out(not children for whom Christ died”.

I’m not seeing this…but “all the captives” wherein they are held…and “they have one mind” which is the carnal mind. Another problem this division presents between the called out carnal minded and those never to be called out the carnal mind is the reference to “babes” or “a child for whom Christ died”. Paul speaks of this in terms of “bond” and “free” and how in Christ there’s no more “bond” and “free”; Paul mentions one who has not this knowledge of Christ and says if he (Paul uses Christ’s liberty) to harm or destroy another who is weak and without knowledge, then he (Paul) sins against Christ by destroying or harming a child “a babe” for whom Christ died and gave himself for. To me (not saying it’s right) but “babes” for whom Christ died to me is all carnal mindedness that without exception all men of carnal mindedness are called “I will draw all men unto myself” to “be you transformed by the renewing of your mind.” To me it isn’t narrowed down to religion but so that Christ shall be all and in all reconciling the world unto God. Point is…if what you are saying is true then I’m thinking wrong when I go out and wonder if when I sin against any then I may be sinning against one for whom Christ died. Even though I, being judgmental may not view them as saved now “called out” . Christ giving of himself for them says otherwise. What you propose …again…if I understand is Christ only died for those called out ones and the others within carnal mindedness Christ did not die for. They are not “as one for whom Christ died” “a child” “a babe in Christ” and never could or would be. While this seems to be true of all flesh so that no fleas can boast before him and “you must be born anew” still I’m having trouble at “not all held in captivity” is whom Christ died for, so that all come to Him for the destruction of the carnal mind …why leave some to perish in the carnal mind without Christ ever loving them enough that He gave Himself for them (calling them to come out of the tomb?)

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Paul addresses his letter to TWO groups of Christians. One group is the "saints". They are the Elect who have received both the Early and Latter Rains. The second group is the "faithful". They have only received the Early Rain and have been given a measure of faith (they are faithful).

I’m not sure about the early and latter rain. I don’t quite know how to put this. If I had to speculate what is the early and Latter rain…I would suggest Paul lays it out well in telling them they are his consolation, they are his comfort, they are his joy. Why if not for Paul loves and seeks for ‘the appearing of Christ’ When Paul speaks of knowing whom he believed and that that One he believed is true and faithful to do it (not do it to make me grand but bear fruit unto maturity within the body of Christ)…I would suggest that is the early rain. Planting. Sowing. Watering. But the Latter Rain being “Yet it is God who gives the increase”. After Paul’s confession of whom he believes and then comes “the Lord delivered me out of every trouble” the deliverance out of every trouble being “the Latter Rain”. More examples…when Paul spoke of Christ being formed in them…and how He had confidence in their to “do the right thing” (a man who said even though I have reason to have confidence in the flesh, yet I have no confidence in the flesh) to me it was confidence in the receiving of the Latter Rain when “Christ be formed in you” (them) . I don’t think its (the Latter Rain) is directed at a person as them only receiving apart from the body of Christ different levels of achievement, but when that which is planted within the body of Christ comes to maturity. Hope fulfilled. joy received. Comfort given …in the wholeness of the Spirit within a bond of perfection which is His love. Paul spoke of “that your joy be made full”. An exchange between two where one hopes(given the early rain) and another returns (Christ’s appearance) (the Latter Rain given) “that they may become One together as “we are One Father”. Like the verse where God can even make your enemies be at peace with you. I think (Imo) the waiting for the Latter Rain is the fulfilling of His peace. I sure hope so. Another example is when those masters waiting for this appearance (the Latter Rain) and he is delayed and they start to beat their servants …Hope deferred makes the heart grow sick.

Isaiah 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
^ unto them that mourn in Zion
To give them beauty (the Latter rain) for ashes(early rain).
The oil of joy (the Latter Rain) for mourning (the early rain)
The garment of praise (the Latter Rain) for the Spirit of heaviness (the early rain)
That they might be called trees of righteousness, the Planting of the Lord, that he be glorified.
Or that is how I understand it. That the Latter Rain is poured out that He might be glorified and how is He glorified if not in “you will never be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of Christ” “for it is My Fathers Will that you bear Fruit” …love and hope and seek for the appearing of Christ?!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Love that you pay attention to verses. Also feel over this verse as if I’ve misunderstood it for a long time. But at the same time I think maybe we still both see it differently. To me I go back to Paul talking to the Corinthians saying “I wish to God you knew we are not reprobates.” And “I trust you will know we are not as those who fail the test”. I do think Paul is patiently waiting for Christ to appear a second time in them, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those waiting for him (which is Paul saying (I know whom I believed will come) (and perform what was promised). “To bring salvation” is the focus on Paul’s salvation? Or theirs? In fact Paul says “I am glad when I am weak, that you be made strong. Paul says this concerning “those waiting for the salvation that is to come”
2 Corinthians 13:8-10 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth. [9] For we are glad, when we are weak, and you are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection(completion, salvation , delivery). [10] Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the power which the Lord hath given me to edification, and not to destruction.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Maybe nothing I respond back will make sense.

Dear VictoryinJesus,
You said:
The problem I see with how you (if I understand correctly) suggest that some of the carnally minded have been called out and some have not…how all the called out and the unbelievers are of “one mind” “earthly” yet not the same? One group “called out” “babes” the other group “never babes and never will be” “never called out”. Did i understand that correctly?

I’m not seeing this…but “all the captives” wherein they are held…and “they have one mind” which is the carnal mind.

Firstly, unbelievers and Early Rain believers are not of "one mind".

This is the verse you are quoting:

Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

Both groups are carnal/evil but the Early Rain believers have become more carnal/evil by the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ. It is these Early Rain believers who have "one mind". In other words, Satan rules the Early Rain believers from within. This is in contrast to how Satan rules unbelievers which is from without.

I'll try to give you a fuller picture of this concept below:

All mankind quickly becomes carnally minded after birth because of the marred spirit that God gave mankind. That flaw in mankind's spirit is its weakness. Because it is weak, the flesh quickly assumes control of the weak spirit, making it have a carnal nature. In turn, the carnal nature causes the mind to become carnal, as well. With a carnal mind, mankind seeks to satisfy the needs of the flesh above anything else. It is the carnal mind that causes us to sin.

When Christ was born in the flesh (same as mankind's flesh), He was born with the full measure of the Holy Spirit rather than a marred spirit. The Holy Spirit within Christ was powerful and strong. Because it was, the Spirit never allowed the needs of the flesh to control it. Because the Spirit never developed a carnal nature, Christ never developed a carnal mind. As a result, Christ never sinned. Christ always put the things of God ahead of the needs of His flesh - even to the point of death.

Since Christ came to save mankind (1John 4:14), Christ is going to spiritually convert all (100%) mankind by giving them the Holy Spirit so that mankind will be like Him.

The plan that Christ established to convert (save) all mankind is at the core of the "great mystery of Christ and His church" (Eph 5:32). It is very concealed in scripture.

In this present age, Christ is only going to convert the people who have been blessed from the foundation of the world for this honor. They will become the early harvest of mankind; the First Fruits.

To begin the spiritual process of conversion for one of the Elect, Christ will come to them (without them asking and without their permission) and give them the Early Rain. However, because it suits the purposes of God, Christ will also give the Early Rain to "many" other people who have not been chosen. Then, from that large group of "many", Christ will come a second time to the chosen "few" and give them the Latter Rain. This will then be followed by judgment. These two events are called the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the baptism of Fire:

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Now for more details of the plan. The plan that Christ established to convert mankind requires that mankind become totally and completely carnal and evil prior their conversion.

Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the Day of Evil.

During the Day of Evil that the Elect must experience, Satan will rule them from within. This occurs when an Early Rain believer becomes indwelt with the spirit of anti-Christ. With the spirit of anti-Christ, a believer will become "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45). This event begins the believer's Day of Evil. At that time, they will become more carnal and more evil than an unbeliever.

Consider the teaching of the seven headed beast in Revelation chapters 13 and 17. The seven headed beast at the beginning of chapter 17 does not have crowns on its horns. This beast without crowns represents carnal mankind in an unbelieving state. When the crowns are later added to the horns, this represents Satan rulership from within an Early Rain believer via the second beast of chapter 13 (the spirit of anti-Christ). This makes the person "worse than the first". This seven headed beast with crowns is called a "man of sin" by Paul. It is when an Elect believer is in this worsened spiritual condition that they will be ready for Christ to come again to them and convert them:

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom (Satan's another gospel) shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations (this is referring to when a believer is fully made into a man of sin); and then shall the end come (Conversion).

The conversion process is also presented by the seven headed beast analogy in chapter 17. The chapter begins with the beast not having any crowns. By the middle of the chapter, the crowns are added to the beast. Then, at the end of the chapter, judgment falls and the beast is destroyed. The details of this judgment are similar to the judgment shown in chapter 19. I have a full paper on chapter 17 posted on my website.

Can you now understand the difference in carnality of unbelievers and Early Rain believers? The carnality of Early Rain believers is worse than the carnality of unbelievers because Satan rules Early Rain believers from "within" rather than from "without".

You said:
Paul mentions one who has not this knowledge of Christ and says if he (Paul uses Christ’s liberty) to harm or destroy another who is weak and without knowledge, then he (Paul) sins against Christ by destroying or harming a child “a babe” for whom Christ died and gave himself for.

You must understand that there are no "babes" in Christ in the apostate churches of this world. Those fallen away believers are not Christ's children - they are Satan's children who have been made "worse than the first". Remember that I said to you earlier that Paul's letters can be difficult to understand because, at the time Paul wrote his letters, the Early Rain believers were babes in Christ and had not become apostate. They were still faithful. But after Paul's death, all this changed. Now, Satan comes to a newly born babe in Christ (Early Rain believers) and kills them via the spirit of anti-Christ. This spiritual death is what these two verses below are referencing:

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

CONTINUED ON THE NEXT POST...

 

[FaithWillDo]

Maybe nothing I respond back will make sense. As you probably noticed…I deleted the question because afterwards I realized the way I asked about to be carnally minded came off as meaning what I didn’t intend for it to mean. The problem I see with how you (if I understand correctly) suggest that some of the carnally minded have been called out and some have not…how all the called out and the unbelievers are of “one mind” “earthly” yet not the same? One group “called out” “babes” the other group “never babes and never will be” “never called out”. Did i understand that correctly? That divides two groups or a division within the carnal mind(itself): those called out and those who will never be called out(not children for whom Christ died”.

I’m not seeing this…but “all the captives” wherein they are held…and “they have one mind” which is the carnal mind. Another problem this division presents between the called out carnal minded and those never to be called out the carnal mind is the reference to “babes” or “a child for whom Christ died”. Paul speaks of this in terms of “bond” and “free” and how in Christ there’s no more “bond” and “free”; Paul mentions one who has not this knowledge of Christ and says if he (Paul uses Christ’s liberty) to harm or destroy another who is weak and without knowledge, then he (Paul) sins against Christ by destroying or harming a child “a babe” for whom Christ died and gave himself for. To me (not saying it’s right) but “babes” for whom Christ died to me is all carnal mindedness that without exception all men of carnal mindedness are called “I will draw all men unto myself” to “be you transformed by the renewing of your mind.” To me it isn’t narrowed down to religion but so that Christ shall be all and in all reconciling the world unto God. Point is…if what you are saying is true then I’m thinking wrong when I go out and wonder if when I sin against any then I may be sinning against one for whom Christ died. Even though I, being judgmental may not view them as saved now “called out” . Christ giving of himself for them says otherwise. What you propose …again…if I understand is Christ only died for those called out ones and the others within carnal mindedness Christ did not die for. They are not “as one for whom Christ died” “a child” “a babe in Christ” and never could or would be. While this seems to be true of all flesh so that no fleas can boast before him and “you must be born anew” still I’m having trouble at “not all held in captivity” is whom Christ died for, so that all come to Him for the destruction of the carnal mind …why leave some to perish in the carnal mind without Christ ever loving them enough that He gave Himself for them (calling them to come out of the tomb?)

CONTINUED FROM THE PREVIOUS POST...

You said:
What you propose … if I understand is Christ only died for those called out ones and the others within carnal mindedness Christ did not die for. They are not “as one for whom Christ died” “a child” “a babe in Christ” and never could or would be.

Christ died for all mankind and has a plan to save all mankind. In this present age, Christ is only saving the Elect who are the First Fruits of His harvest. In the final age, Christ will harvest the rest of mankind into the Kingdom of Heaven. That harvest occurs at the end of the year (the final age).

Consider the feasts which are used in the farming analogy:

Exo 34:22 And thou shalt observe the Feast of Weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the year's end.

The Feast of Weeks (First Fruits) represents the harvest of the Elect in this present age. The Feast of Ingathering (Tabernacles) represents the harvest of the rest of mankind at the year's end (the final age).

In the final age, Christ will make this call to the "lost":

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast (Feast of Ingathering), Jesus stood and cried, saying, if any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

This same call is also shown below but with the addition of the Elect (the Bride) who will reign with Christ in the final age:

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

After the last person is saved, all mankind will be added to the Kingdom of Heaven and this verse below will then be testified to be true:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

I hope my comments answer your concerns. I did have a little trouble understanding your points. If I missed something, please ask about it again.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Love that you pay attention to verses. Also feel over this verse as if I’ve misunderstood it for a long time. But at the same time I think maybe we still both see it differently. To me I go back to Paul talking to the Corinthians saying “I wish to God you knew we are not reprobates.” And “I trust you will know we are not as those who fail the test”. I do think Paul is patiently waiting for Christ to appear a second time in them, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those waiting for him (which is Paul saying (I know whom I believed will come) (and perform what was promised). “To bring salvation” is the focus on Paul’s salvation? Or theirs? In fact Paul says “I am glad when I am weak, that you be made strong. Paul says this concerning “those waiting for the salvation that is to come”
2 Corinthians 13:8-10 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth. [9] For we are glad, when we are weak, and you are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection(completion, salvation , delivery). [10] Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the power which the Lord hath given me to edification, and not to destruction.

Dear VictoryinJesus,
A believer is made "perfect" when Christ "comes again" to them and gives them the Latter Rain. This is when they will be converted and have "eyes that can see".

Also, God's Word uses "spirit" words which have meanings that are different than what man's wisdom teaches (1Cor 2:13). To understand the meanings of these "spirit" words, Paul says to "compare spiritual things (words) with spiritual" (1Cor 2:13). When we look at the words "water" and "rain" in scripture, it becomes clear that the word "water" represents the Holy Spirit and when it "rains" upon a person, they are receiving the Holy Spirit. The Early Rain is the "small amount" and the Latter Rain is the plentiful amount (the baptism).

Here are some verses on the Early and Latter Rains:

Deu 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain (Early Rain) upon the tender herb, and as the showers (Latter Rain) upon the grass:

Job 37:6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain (Early Rain), and to the great rain (Latter Rain) of his strength.

Psa 68:9 Thou, O God, didst send a plentiful Rain (the Latter Rain), whereby thou didst confirm thine inheritance, when it was weary.

As Paul said to the Corinthians, when Christ comes a second time, He will confirm their election (inheritance) and make them blameless. That confirmation comes as a "plentiful RAIN (the Latter Rain) when the believer's inheritance is "weary" (meaning that the believer is in a fallen away state).

Jer 3:3 Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no Latter Rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.

The "whore's forehead" represents that the believer's carnal nature (Great Harlot) has been made worse by the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ and has worsened their carnal mind (whore's forehead):

Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great (Harlot) is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

The time between the Early and Latter Rain is a time of drought. Elijah's 3 1/2 year drought is a "type" for it. During this time, the believer will fall away and become indwelt with the spirit of anti-Christ, whereby giving them a whore's forehead and making their inheritance weary.

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? (conversion time of the Elect) I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder and RAIN (the Latter Rain); that ye may perceive (spiritual blindness healed) and see that your wickedness is great (worse than the first), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

And one more:

Prov 16:15 In the light of the king's countenance is life; and his favour (blessing upon the Elect) is as a cloud of the Latter Rain.

I hope this helps with your understanding, but there is no substitute for prayer (Luke 11:9-13).

Right before I was converted in 2005, the Lord caused me to pray for understanding. Then, three days later, He poured out the Latter Rain upon me and healed my spiritual blindness. Only then was I able to truly understand God's Word and see that my wickedness was great. With the new knowledge which Christ was feeding me (Marriage Supper of the Lamb), my world was immediately turned upside down (spiritually speaking) and I saw Christ for the first time.

This same event is what John is teaching in the verses below:

Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned (converted), I saw seven golden candlesticks (the true church); 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man (Christ), clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

Joe

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Dear VictoryinJesus,
A believer is made "perfect" when Christ "comes again" to them and gives them the Latter Rain. This is when they will be converted and have "eyes that can see".

Also, God's Word uses "spirit" words which have meanings that are different than what man's wisdom teaches (1Cor 2:13). To understand the meanings of these "spirit" words, Paul says to "compare spiritual things (words) with spiritual" (1Cor 2:13). When we look at the words "water" and "rain" in scripture, it becomes clear that the word "water" represents the Holy Spirit and when it "rains" upon a person, they are receiving the Holy Spirit. The Early Rain is the "small amount" and the Latter Rain is the plentiful amount (the baptism).

Here are some verses on the Early and Latter Rains:

Deu 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain (Early Rain) upon the tender herb, and as the showers (Latter Rain) upon the grass:

Job 37:6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain (Early Rain), and to the great rain (Latter Rain) of his strength.

Psa 68:9 Thou, O God, didst send a plentiful Rain (the Latter Rain), whereby thou didst confirm thine inheritance, when it was weary.

As Paul said to the Corinthians, when Christ comes a second time, He will confirm their election (inheritance) and make them blameless. That confirmation comes as a "plentiful RAIN (the Latter Rain) when the believer's inheritance is "weary" (meaning that the believer is in a fallen away state).

Jer 3:3 Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no Latter Rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.

The "whore's forehead" represents that the believer's carnal nature (Great Harlot) has been made worse by the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ and has worsened their carnal mind (whore's forehead):

Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great (Harlot) is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

The time between the Early and Latter Rain is a time of drought. Elijah's 3 1/2 year drought is a "type" for it. During this time, the believer will fall away and become indwelt with the spirit of anti-Christ, whereby giving them a whore's forehead and making their inheritance weary.

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? (conversion time of the Elect) I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder and RAIN (the Latter Rain); that ye may perceive (spiritual blindness healed) and see that your wickedness is great (worse than the first), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

And one more:

Prov 16:15 In the light of the king's countenance is life; and his favour (blessing upon the Elect) is as a cloud of the Latter Rain.

I hope this helps with your understanding, but there is no substitute for prayer (Luke 11:9-13).

Right before I was converted in 2005, the Lord caused me to pray for understanding. Then, three days later, He poured out the Latter Rain upon me and healed my spiritual blindness. Only then was I able to truly understand God's Word and see that my wickedness was great. With the new knowledge which Christ was feeding me (Marriage Supper of the Lamb), my world was immediately turned upside down (spiritually speaking) and I saw Christ for the first time.

This same event is what John is teaching in the verses below:

Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned (converted), I saw seven golden candlesticks (the true church); 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man (Christ), clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

Joe

i do see valid points in all your post. Although I haven’t seen some of the connections you made…I’m not assuming it’s not there. What I do love is the end result you speak of. Again, if I understood you correctly, I do agree what the end result will be in the Will of God.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace;

Love.
Psalm 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

 

[FaithWillDo]

i do see valid points in all your post. Although I haven’t seen some of the connections you made…I’m not assuming it’s not there. What I do love is the end result you speak of. Again, if I understood you correctly, I do agree what the end result will be in the Will of God.

Dear VictoryinJesus,
The "connections" are necessary and must be made because God's Word really does teach its truth "here a little and there a little". Then all the pieces must be assembled as this scripture says this:

Psa 119:160 The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.

Even after an Elect believer is converted and given "eyes that can see", a great deal of prayer and effort is still required to find the treasure of God:

Prov 2:1 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, 2 making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; 3 yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, 4 if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, 5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

I've had many, many discussions before with Early Rain believers who will argue that God's Word is easy to understand because Christ wants everyone to be able to make an informed decision on whether or not to accept Him as their Lord and Savior. But no matter how many scriptures I present to them which contradict this belief, they will still hold fast with their claim. They are forced to do so because their belief in the false doctrines of Free Will & Hell would lose its foundation if Christ kept His truth concealed from mankind.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Love.
Psalm 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

Dear VictoryinJesus,

This is a fine verse but its message is heavily concealed by Christ's spiritual language.

Here is what I "see":

Silver is a "spirit" word (John 6:63) which means redemption/atonement. The phrase "furnace of earth" represents judgment upon mankind's carnality (earth). The number "seven" represents perfection.

With this understanding of the spirit words, we can then discern the true message of the verse:

The truth of God's Word is as pure as the redemption which comes from Christ's perfect judgment upon mankind's carnality. In other words, through Christ's perfect judgment, mankind will be completely redeemed.

This verse below is related:

Luke 3:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

Chaff is a symbol for mankind's carnality which will be removed from the wheat (the Elect) by unquenchable fire (judgment).

Because judgment is a necessary component of our salvation, Christ longs to start that process of judgment upon mankind:

Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Luke 12:49 “I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!

Jer 4:2 And thou shalt swear, The LORD liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory.

Because mankind is blessed by Christ's judgment, we should welcome it. It may not be a pleasant experience but the end result will be worth it all.

Since Christ understood this truth about judgment, He willingly went to the cross to be judged for the sins of the world.

Christ did not suffer in vain:

Rom 5:18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. 19 For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many (all mankind) will be constituted righteous.

Joe

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Dear VictoryinJesus,

This is a fine verse but its message is heavily concealed by Christ's spiritual language.

Here is what I "see":

Silver is a "spirit" word (John 6:63) which means redemption/atonement. The phrase "furnace of earth" represents judgment upon mankind's carnality (earth). The number "seven" represents perfection.

With this understanding of the spirit words, we can then discern the true message of the verse:

The truth of God's Word is as pure as the redemption which comes from Christ's perfect judgment upon mankind's carnality. In other words, through Christ's perfect judgment, mankind will be completely redeemed.

This verse below is related:

Luke 3:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

Chaff is a symbol for mankind's carnality which will be removed from the wheat (the Elect) by unquenchable fire (judgment).

Because judgment is a necessary component of our salvation, Christ longs to start that process of judgment upon mankind:

Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Luke 12:49 “I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!

Jer 4:2 And thou shalt swear, The LORD liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory.

Because mankind is blessed by Christ's judgment, we should welcome it. It may not be a pleasant experience but the end result will be worth it all.

Since Christ understood this truth about judgment, He willingly went to the cross to be judged for the sins of the world.

Christ did not suffer in vain:

Rom 5:18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. 19 For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many (all mankind) will be constituted righteous.

Joe

To me it spoke of His walking in that furnace, but it also speaks to me of the gospel of peace tried and true. Romans 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

That is not to suggest any of what you shared isn’t better but I’m just telling why I like that.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Dear VictoryinJesus,

This is a fine verse but its message is heavily concealed by Christ's spiritual language.

Here is what I "see":

Silver is a "spirit" word (John 6:63) which means redemption/atonement. The phrase "furnace of earth" represents judgment upon mankind's carnality (earth). The number "seven" represents perfection.

With this understanding of the spirit words, we can then discern the true message of the verse:

The truth of God's Word is as pure as the redemption which comes from Christ's perfect judgment upon mankind's carnality. In other words, through Christ's perfect judgment, mankind will be completely redeemed.

This verse below is related:

Luke 3:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

Chaff is a symbol for mankind's carnality which will be removed from the wheat (the Elect) by unquenchable fire (judgment).

Because judgment is a necessary component of our salvation, Christ longs to start that process of judgment upon mankind:

Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Luke 12:49 “I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!

Jer 4:2 And thou shalt swear, The LORD liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory.

Because mankind is blessed by Christ's judgment, we should welcome it. It may not be a pleasant experience but the end result will be worth it all.

Since Christ understood this truth about judgment, He willingly went to the cross to be judged for the sins of the world.

Christ did not suffer in vain:

Rom 5:18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. 19 For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many (all mankind) will be constituted righteous.

Joe

Speaking of misunderstood verses. I’m not sure I truly understand Hebrews 6:3-7 And this will we do, if God permit. [4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, [5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. [7] For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

For it is impossible…but with God all things are possible. You spoke of a falling away.
I also wonder about the passage of “it is impossible” and “to renew them again” with “be you transformed by the renewing of your mind”?