Duplicity of Marriage to a Xian.

[Elle]

"God doing what you would call evil things, are also for His plan."
God does not perform sinful (evil) acts, man does and God judges accordingly. God creates the calamity, not evil as it has been translated. The calamity is the result of our disobedience.


"Where you say His wrath will come to us for allowing it to happen, has no biblical foundation at all."
Tell that to Sodom and Gomorah, tell that to the people who died in the flood, tell that to Pharoh, tell that to the Jews when they were destroyed along with the temple, tell it to the people who will be cast into the Great Tribulation.


"And 1 john 1:8 is the most abused verse in the bible. Especially since a few vss earlier JOhn said him and others no longer sinned. :) That's an entirely different thread."
http://carm.org/can-true-christian-sin


"You've managed to arrive peacefully to where disagree and to what extent we sorta agree. And the places we don't agree we can still discuss."
If it opposes God's Law in any way, I will never comply, but we can continue the discussion if you like.


"You rock. :)
In a couple of hours I"ll hit this appropriately."
Thanks and I will check in later.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

"All of those were things that the church was against and screamed it would bring the world to an end. It didn't happen."

Eventually it will bring God's wrath.

There is no biblical support for that. We live now, and wait for His theocratic return. It will get worse before it gets better, that IS HIS promise, although I'm not much for eschatology. That wrath is coming anyway. All we have to do is follow HIS word. Trying to control those outside the Church, deprive people of equal rights and blah blah blah, is NOT loving God's Enemies as Christ commanded us to.

"IF the gay marriage thing passed and it matured into an appeal to make pastors marry them, against their religion, it would be many many generations into the future. About 8 is my guess, but it's of course a guess."

I feel it could happen much sooner.

I can respect your feelings on it. I disagree, but it's speculation. Historically it's taken a long time for these things to happen. It was in MY lifetime that the final states got rid of their ban on interracial marriages and couples. That was supposed to make the world end.

"I don't think that case, you are 501c3 so you must marry and bless gay people is even on the realms of possible court cases to win. AND, I don't know of any Gay couple that would get married who would care to make it one. They are nearly all leave them alone make them leave us alone. HOWEVER, in answer to the way the far right treats them, in reaction they have a far left that even the GLBT community cringe at."

I stand like an oak on this issue.

Again, I respect that. I don't agree, but.... no one can tell yet. I would expect you to do NOTHING but stand for what you believe.

"He ordained the killing of His son and the enslavement of His people, as well as Genocide. Providing legal rights and a fair government for everyone, not just xians is something the NT says directly is to be done. So I have to disagree. You mistake the legal aspects of marriage, to having a connection with the Religious ones."

Yeshua's sacrifice was for the benefit of man and Yeshua agreed to do His Father's will, he was not forced.

Don't see how "forced" has anything to do with it. Those were "evil things" people would try to prevent today. They had to happen for His will to occur. Stopping them, not trusting God would have been folly, and trying would have been Anti Christ.

Enslavement of His people was also for their benefit to grow as a nation.

Teaching the Xian right that, like women's rights, american indian rights, black rights, interracial marriage, gay marriage is something that the govt should protect could be on His list to help us benefit as a Church. So what? When we forego His word, to do what WE feel is right, and under biblical pretext try to justify our actions and behaviors we aren't helping HIS cause anymore than if we had ambushed Judas and kept him from turning the Christ in.

Genocide was to clear the land that Satan's spiritual seed was squatting on.

Why don't we just kill the gay folks then. They are so evil. According to some users on here THEY are the reason the heterosexual marriages fail. That was really stated.
Why not kill the liars why just the gays.... THE POINT WAS.... God did things the people at the time would have deemed NOT GOOD but they were for HIS WILL. So, like Gideon being told to set down His weapons and send people home, we may be receiving the message the bigotry is enough, God loves and Provides even for His enemies. EVEN IF THEY ARE SINNERS, EVEN IF IT IS AN ABOMINABLE SIN. By fighting against what the Govt needs to do in fairness so they can do the job God appointed them to do, we are doing the same thing as if Gideon picked up the weapons and recalled the soldiers and did it His way. Do you expect that to bear fruit?

I'm not sure how you see gay marriage as as being a legal right, that's unscriptural.

Scripture has nothing to do with what is a legal right. That is probably part of the problem. Paul said let those outside the Church judge those outside the church. Why does the church today think it's better than Paul? Paul said to be concerned about those in the Church. The Church is outside the Biblical boundary there. The soldier and tax collector were told to do their job, sinful as it was perceived but to do it fairly. The Church today is telling the Govt to ignore some of it's people and promote the Church's definitions instead. LAWS OF THE LAND are not under any obligation to be within God's laws. Where do you think the Martyrs came from, they too were in God's will and plan.

Here is how I see it. Man has free will to choose, if someone wants to get an abortion or marry a person of the same sex, they are free to do so. I stand against it, but will not override their free will. Manmade governments have no right forcing these issues by legalizing them on believers.

I'm sorry, that doesn't make sense to me. How can they legalize it on you? They aren't forcing you to get an abortion. They make it a law because then they can protect the women that will get abortions. Adultery isn't outlawed, neither is lying. Why is this sin treated differently. It's the same as isolating ONE race out and treating them differently. Abortion was not ILLEGAL until the Church got in. Women were getting clothes hangar abortions and dying. IT was made legal because they wanted a better option. The govt did what it did to protect the women's rights as best they saw. Right or wrong, it's GOD APPOINTED RESULTS, you don't have to agree with God, just Honor Him. See what happened to Abe when He didn't honor God's desires? We lost two big buildings because of that act....And we are what, 3500 years later? Sometime people mean well, and get in God's way. That's why I'm a more conservative believer these days... I pretty much take the bible as written and do less dancing to explain away the parts I don't like. Nomad calls me liberal. hehehe but I'm not the one dancing with verses.... Someone in here said I was liberal, but my reasoning, which no one addressed, for why we SHOULD support gay marriage hasn't been refuted, just ignored and the same arguments presented again.



YOU>>>>>>>>Why, for instance, should my tax money go to pay for someone's abortion? I support one's free will choice to have one, but do not indirectly involve me by using my hard earned money to fix your mistake. I'm am not required to give 25% of my income to support abled-bodied persons who refuse to work. God is not fair, never was. God took the talent from the worthless servant and gave it to the one who produced much, God hates socialism. Man can put all the laws he wants into place that are in opposition to God, but God's Law stands and it will be that very Law that they are judged from.<<<<<YOU

Well I have no beef with these comments.

YOU>>>>"God could put the government to making gay marriage legal to protect them from His Church's Zealots."

No, what God put in place to protect people from "Church Zealot's" was the need for 2 or 3 witnesses to witness the act. Then they were brought before the judges and if the accusation was true they were punished according to the Law. No one has the right to execute judgement without witnesses.<<<<YOU<<<<<

That doesn't make sense to me either. I'm missing something and not connecting. That is what happens when someone IN the church calls an elder out for misbehaving or something. If the church is overstepping it's bounds, the elders are approving it. How does the HEAD correct that? Same way He did the Jews. Often with some action they don't like to learn a lesson. Which part of GOD PROVIDES FOR HIS ENEMIES do we not understand here? WHICH PART of God appointed the govt and expects them to do their job for the PEOPLE, not the church do we struggle with?


>>>YOU>>>"No, he wouldn't. The law never applied to gentiles. Not once. It would, in this case, apply to us within the Church. But not to the government. Paul said, "it's not my job to judge those outside the Church", and James ruled not to make the gentiles keep any but a portion of the law."

If you are saying God approves of same sex marriage, you are mistaken. <<<<<<< YOU<<<<

Didn't say he did for the Church. Who are you to judge what he sees fit for those outside the Church. That's above yours and my pay grade.

>>>YOU>>>He would be violating His own Law. Actually the Law does apply to gentiles IF they decided to live under the tents of Israel. Heathens and Gentiles are not the same thing. Israel was to treat them as one of their own as can be seen in Leviticus 19:34: But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God."<<<<< YOU

Errrr that is how they should Treat with them, not how they should follow the law. The law said they don't follow all the laws. That's why the council of Jerusalem ruled as it did.
The gentile "God Fearers" had aspects of the law they kept but not all of it. Thus the issue at the temple....
This verse... is about strangers, not fellow God fearing Gentiles...

YOU>>>> This word stranger in Hebrew is "ger" and below are the list of things that pertained to a ger:

Do you see the difference? Gers are acceptable to God, but nekars are not. The nekars need to become gers. They are not treated equally.<<<<YOU<<<<

The covenant with the Jews was for them to keep the Law of Moses as a lifestyle of the godly to set them apart from the other nations. The covenant with the believers among the other nations was referred to as the Noachian, or Noachide Laws. The Noachian Laws were taken from the moral and spiritual principles derived basically from Genesis 9:47
Source...http://www.haydid.org/spirit2.htm I cheated, I didn't want to read all of leviticus to find what I couldn't find in a search. And this isn't even MY idea, this is common teaching by Hebrew and Christian theologians alike..... Where do we disconnect here?

The council of Jerusalem is another support for my position....


YOU>>>>"Sometimes not following GOD's Laws are what the government is supposed to do for His will to be done. Why would we interfere? Would you have stopped Judas from turning Christ in? How about Pharaoh? Either one, seemed the right move at the time, but would have been wrong. God appoints the Govt. I trust Him. "

Not that they are "supposed to do", but because they "choose to do", that God's plan will come to its fulfillment. YOU<<<<<<<<

They chose to help God's plan come to fulfillment by disobeying him? You totally lost me again. That doesn't make sense....


YOU>>>>>No, I would not have stopped Judas, to do so would be to override his free will. <<<<YOU<<<< And here in lies your dilemma. He went to kill the son of GOd, you'd have been like Peter and stood before his will. With Gay marriage you ignore numerous biblical principles to do what you think is right. To think you would have known about Christ, something the Apostles didn't understand until Acts sometime.... seems a big stretch to me. I AM NOT DOUBTING YOUR HEART OR WILL I am speaking of the likelihood of you living up to the claim you make.

YOU>>>>I would have tried to set him on the right path had I known. Even the apostles did not understand what Judas set out to do. Look what Yeshua said to Peter when he tried to override Yeshua's free will. I have no intention of stopping anybody from doing what they feel is right, but if one claims to believe in God, I will try to reason with them and hopefully they will hear my counsel.

And if you reasoned with him TOO well, we are short one messiah. But you would have felt good at the time for sparing a great man's life... and foiled God. (of course that's hypothetical....... but...)

YOU>>>>> I will always stand by God's Law before I stand by man's law if it is not in accordance with God's ways.<<<<<< YOU<<<<

I can give you a list of a half dozen to a dozen biblical standards you violate if you champion the anti gay marriage cause. Would that change your mind to find out that isolating this ONE SIN for focus as is being done, is against the Bible at a ratio of about 8 vss to 1?

YOU>>>>Here is an example of what I mean from an article I have saved: "After the enemies of Daniel could find no fault in Daniel concerning the laws of the land, they would condemn him another way. The only hope they had to see him condemned was to have a law instituted that went against the law of his God. Therefore, they made a law that struck at the heart of Daniel's relationship with his God: his daily prayer life. We must notice that the law that was made was in opposition to the law of God. It was that anyone who petitioned any god, except the king for thirty days would be killed. This was a carefully orchestrated plan to bring Daniel into condemnation in regard to the law of the land. Daniel was forced to either obey God or the law of the land. We see here that the law goes against a law of God, which calls for daily morning and evening prayer as specified in Numbers 28:3."<<<<YOU<<<<<

Ok, fine, IF this was a law, that interfered with YOUR WORSHIP OF GOD, this would be a valid comment. Paul said it's not his job to judge those outside the Church. I'd assume that means it's not ours either. SO, since gay marriage wouldn't interfere with my worship, I have no right to violate that concept nor to push the govt to act in a way that doesn't protect its people.


YOU>>>"I think I've shown my oddness here... :)"

Food for thought: 1John 1:8 - If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.<<<< YOU<<<<<
I have no clue how this fits in here.... I'm now on to the next note.

We don't agree. I enjoy communicating with you. Please understand my use of the YOU pronoun is usually in a general sense in these commentaries. I appreciate that your arguments aren't emotional driven, are very logical, and you are true to your beliefs.

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[background=white]"God doing what you would call evil things, are also for His plan." [/background]
[background=white]God does not perform sinful (evil) acts, man does and God judges accordingly. God creates the calamity, not evil as it has been translated. The calamity is the result of our disobedience.

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[background=white]Well not only does \scripture say otherwise, genocide, murder, Calamity is not disobedience. Do you think New Orleans had a hurricane because they were evil? What about Galveston two years before, did the girls show too much cheek at the beach? The guys too much lust??? God causes calamity for HIS purposes. If you think anything on earth happens and it's not His will, then we are discussing different Gods. The God I know is in control.[/background]


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[background=white]"Where you say His wrath will come to us for allowing it to happen, has no biblical foundation at all."[/background]
[background=white]Tell that to Sodom and Gomorah, tell that to the people who died in the flood, tell that to Pharoh, tell that to the Jews when they were destroyed along with the temple, tell it to the people who will be cast into the Great Tribulation.

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[background=white]What do they have to do with it? That's a bygone era and dispensation. The tribulation example wouldn't apply. There is nothing anywhere about Him forcing people's hand on earth with punishment, post christ until the trib, if that even happens.... AND the trib occurs when there is no tomorrow as far as the way we live now. To say he'd bring his wrath on the people for not forcing gay people to not have protection, that's just silly talk. WE ARE NOT TO JUDGE THEM AND WE ARE TO PROVIDE FOR HIS ENEMIES. We do not do that with the position the Church holds today. I guess according to your view all the churches are going to be hit by tornadoes. [/background]

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[background=white]"And 1 john 1:8 is the most abused verse in the bible. Especially since a few vss earlier JOhn said him and others no longer sinned. [/background][background=white] :) That's an entirely different thread."[/background]
[background=white]http://carm.org/can-true-christian-sin<<

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[background=white]The people at Carm have refused that debate with me. If you can make it happen I'll buy you a 50 amazon gift card. [/background][background=white] :) They abuse the verse. They deny the very scripture deliberately and clearly to make their case. [/background]

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"You've managed to arrive peacefully to where disagree and to what extent we sorta agree. And the places we don't agree we can still discuss."[/background]

[background=white]If it opposes God's Law in any way, I will never comply, but we can continue the discussion if you like

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[background=white]Your position violates Paul on don't judge those outside the church. [/background]
[background=white]It violates Christ's command to be perfect like the father is perfect, which means love and provide for enemies as well.I don't understand how you can evade those rules, and isolate gay position on marriage and attack it so. It requires blinders. [/background]

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[background=white]"You rock. [/background][background=white]{C}{C} :)
In a couple of hours I"ll hit this appropriately."[/background]
[background=white]Thanks and I will check in later.[/background]

[background=white]

[/background]

[background=white]"God doing what you would call evil things, are also for His plan." [/background]
[background=white]God does not perform sinful (evil) acts, man does and God judges accordingly. God creates the calamity, not evil as it has been translated. The calamity is the result of our disobedience.

[/background]

[background=white]Well not only does \scripture say otherwise, genocide, murder, Calamity is not disobedience. Do you think New Orleans had a hurricane because they were evil? What about Galveston two years before, did the girls show too much cheek at the beach? The guys too much lust??? God causes calamity for HIS purposes. If you think anything on earth happens and it's not His will, then we are discussing different Gods. The God I know is in control.[/background]


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[background=white]"Where you say His wrath will come to us for allowing it to happen, has no biblical foundation at all."[/background]
[background=white]Tell that to Sodom and Gomorah, tell that to the people who died in the flood, tell that to Pharoh, tell that to the Jews when they were destroyed along with the temple, tell it to the people who will be cast into the Great Tribulation.

[/background]

[background=white]What do they have to do with it? That's a bygone era and dispensation. The tribulation example wouldn't apply. There is nothing anywhere about Him forcing people's hand on earth with punishment, post christ until the trib, if that even happens.... AND the trib occurs when there is no tomorrow as far as the way we live now. To say he'd bring his wrath on the people for not forcing gay people to not have protection, that's just silly talk. WE ARE NOT TO JUDGE THEM AND WE ARE TO PROVIDE FOR HIS ENEMIES. We do not do that with the position the Church holds today. I guess according to your view all the churches are going to be hit by tornadoes. [/background]

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[/background]

[background=white]"And 1 john 1:8 is the most abused verse in the bible. Especially since a few vss earlier JOhn said him and others no longer sinned. [/background][background=white] :) That's an entirely different thread."[/background]
[background=white]http://carm.org/can-true-christian-sin<<

[/background]
[background=white]The people at Carm have refused that debate with me. If you can make it happen I'll buy you a 50 amazon gift card. [/background][background=white] :) They abuse the verse. They deny the very scripture deliberately and clearly to make their case. [/background]

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"You've managed to arrive peacefully to where disagree and to what extent we sorta agree. And the places we don't agree we can still discuss."[/background]

[background=white]If it opposes God's Law in any way, I will never comply, but we can continue the discussion if you like

[/background]

[background=white]Your position violates Paul on don't judge those outside the church. [/background]
[background=white]It violates Christ's command to be perfect like the father is perfect, which means love and provide for enemies as well.I don't understand how you can evade those rules, and isolate gay position on marriage and attack it so. It requires blinders. [/background]

[background=white]

[/background]

[background=white]"You rock. [/background][background=white]{C}{C} :)
In a couple of hours I"ll hit this appropriately."[/background]
[background=white]Thanks and I will check in later.[/background]
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The quote has a limit what is it. I'm sorry that is the way it is. I've spent 1.5 hours on fixing quotes.... I'm now ending that challenge. I'll fix it if you need me to tomorrow.

 

[Elle]

"All we have to do is follow HIS word.

Yes.


"Trying to control those outside the Church, deprive people of equal rights and blah blah blah, is NOT loving God's Enemies as Christ commanded us to."
Your perception of loving your enemies is warped. To love your enemies is summed up in the 6-10 commandments, not one of those commandments even remotely suggest that I must approve of same sex marriage, however I am to love them by respecting them and not overriding their free will. To love my enemies is to speak truth to them and not concern myself as to whether they love me or not. Yeshua spoke the truth and people hated him for it. Too many people are afraid to speak the truth and prefer to compromise, I will not do that. As for believers, they know or should know where God stands on the issue if they come under His covenant.


"Why don't we just kill the gay folks then. They are so evil. According to some users on here THEY are the reason the heterosexual marriages fail. That was really stated.
Why not kill the liars why just the gays.... THE POINT WAS.... God did things the people at the time would have deemed NOT GOOD but they were for HIS WILL. So, like Gideon being told to set down His weapons and send people home, we may be receiving the message the bigotry is enough, God loves and Provides even for His enemies. EVEN IF THEY ARE SINNERS, EVEN IF IT IS AN ABOMINABLE SIN. By fighting against what the Govt needs to do in fairness so they can do the job God appointed them to do, we are doing the same thing as if Gideon picked up the weapons and recalled the soldiers and did it His way. Do you expect that to bear fruit?"
My guess would be because God has not spoken to anyone about doing so as he did with Moses, Joshua, David etc.. The day will come when God does destroy the wicked though. Also because Israel has been scattered all over the world and are currently not one nation. When we are brought back together, God's Law will stand, not man's. No, that would not be why normal marriages fail. No, what God did was very good, if you understand who these 7 nations really are. He had a very good reason for destroying them, but you need to find out why on your own. Yes, God provides rain for the just and unjust (His enemies). I will refrain from commenting about Gideon, I've read the account in times past, but it has not been an area I have thoroughly studied.

"Scripture has nothing to do with what is a legal right. That is probably part of the problem. Paul said let those outside the Church judge those outside the church. Why does the church today think it's better than Paul? Paul said to be concerned about those in the Church. The Church is outside the Biblical boundary there. The soldier and tax collector were told to do their job, sinful as it was perceived but to do it fairly. The Church today is telling the Govt to ignore some of it's people and promote the Church's definitions instead. LAWS OF THE LAND are not under any obligation to be within God's laws. Where do you think the Martyrs came from, they too were in God's will and plan."
OK, I understand what you are saying about a legal right having nothing to with scripture. You are probably not going to like this, but I do not heed anything Paul says unless it can be confirmed by Yeshua. Let me ask you something, who preached to the Ephesians and who do you suppose Yeshua was speaking about in Revelation 2:2? I have no argument with anything else said. The martyrs came about because they were persecuted by the Catholic Church, or Saul/Paul, or Nero.

"I'm sorry, that doesn't make sense to me. How can they legalize it on you?
How? Because just like Daniel, if I stand up against it, I will be thrown to the lion's den for obeying God and not man. Daniel's enemies were trying to take away His free will to offer up the daily sacrifice (prayers) by instituting a law that he could only worship the king for 30 days. In like manner, the government takes away my free will by using my tax money to support that which opposes God.


"They aren't forcing you to get an abortion. They make it a law because then they can protect the women that will get abortions.
I never said they are forcing me to have an abortion, I said they raise my taxes to pay for these heathens abortions. If the government wants to protect them, that's fine. JUST DON"T USE MY TAX MONEY TO KILL THEIR BABIES!!!

"Adultery isn't outlawed, neither is lying."
Under God's Law it is, not man's law. If you call for adultery and lying to to be outlawed, then you also have to call for same sex marriage and baby killers to be outlawed. You cannot pick and choose which rights to protect and which ones not to protect. Don't you feel that since the government protects the free will of same sex couples and baby killers that they should also protect the free will right of adulterers and liars?

Why is this sin treated differently.
Cherry pickers.

"Because It's the same as isolating ONE race out and treating them differently."
The races are different, we did not all come from Adam, but God still loves them and they should be treated as one who is natural-born if they place themselves under God's Law. Ask yourself, who was the beast of the earth/field who has hands and feet, can put on sackcloth and repent, can be hired, can own possessions. These are not heathen gentiles. Only then will you understand. And the gentiles were technically the 70 nations that came from Noah with the promise going through Shem and his descendants. The beast of the field/earth lived amongst these nations to where God allotted Noah's descendants their land. They were to have dominion over the beasts of the earth/field and everything else.

Abortion was not ILLEGAL until the Church got in. or Women were getting clothes hangar abortions and dying. IT was made legal because they wanted a better option. The govt did what it did to protect the women's rights as best they saw.
Like I said, no one's free will should be compromised, but don't use my tax dollars to pay for it.

Right or wrong, it's GOD APPOINTED RESULTS, you don't have to agree with God, just Honor Him.
I do agree with God, because like I said no one's free will should be compromised, just do not make me an accomplice to what God opposes.

"See what happened to Abe when He didn't honor God's desires?
I assume you are talking about his neglect in circumcising his son. Yes, but that was part of the covenant God made with Abraham and his descendants after him, of which Abraham agreed to. The only thing we are required to do on behalf of the heathens is to love them as we would love ourselves, which is summed up by the 6-10th commandments, bless them and do good for them and pray for them and allow then their free will.

"We lost two big buildings because of that act...."
How do you think the twin towers compare?

And we are what, 3500 years later? Sometime people mean well, and get in God's way. That's why I'm a more conservative believer these days... I pretty much take the bible as written and do less dancing to explain away the parts I don't like. Nomad calls me liberal. hehehe but I'm not the one dancing with verses.... Someone in here said I was liberal, but my reasoning, which no one addressed, for why we SHOULD support gay marriage hasn't been refuted, just ignored and the same arguments presented again."
What is going on between you and Nomad is you're affair and I do not want to be dragged into it. OK, why we shouldn't, because God says it is an abomination, why we should, because to say "no" overrides their free will. The difference being, those who claim a belief in God and live under his covenant are not to practice this sin, those not under the covenant are free to do as they please. Just don't use my tax dollars to support it, because now my free will is being overridden.



"Don't see how "forced" has anything to do with it. Those were "evil things" people would try to prevent today. They had to happen for His will to occur. Stopping them, not trusting God would have been folly, and trying would have been Anti Christ."
Because God did not force Yeshua, He did not override Yeshua's free will to go through with it, Yeshuan asked for the cup to pass from him, not according to his will, but his Father's will. Yeshua knew it was not his Father's will that the cup should pass and thus he fulfilled God's will.

Those were "evil things" people would try to prevent today. They had to happen for His will to occur. Stopping them, not trusting God would have been folly, and trying would have been Anti Christ."
As I cited Peter as an example in post #39 .

"Teaching the Xian right that, like women's rights, american indian rights, black rights, interracial marriage, gay marriage is something that the govt should protect could be on His list to help us benefit as a Church. So what? When we forego His word, to do what WE feel is right, and under biblical pretext try to justify our actions and behaviors we aren't helping HIS cause anymore than if we had ambushed Judas and kept him from turning the Christ in."
I have no argument there, heathens are not to override the churches free will and the church is not to override heathens free will.

From me earlier:
"No, what God put in place to protect people from "Church Zealot's" was the need for 2 or 3 witnesses to witness the act. Then they were brought before the judges and if the accusation was true they were punished according to the Law. No one has the right to execute judgement without witnesses.<<<<YOU<<<<<"

Your reply:
That doesn't make sense to me either. I'm missing something and not connecting. That is what happens when someone IN the church calls an elder out for misbehaving or something. If the church is overstepping it's bounds, the elders are approving it. How does the HEAD correct that? Same way He did the Jews. Often with some action they don't like to learn a lesson. Which part of GOD PROVIDES FOR HIS ENEMIES do we not understand here? WHICH PART of God appointed the govt and expects them to do their job for the PEOPLE, not the church do we struggle with?

No it doesn't. God's Law said in Deuteronomy 17:1-6 that if there was anyone who transgressed God's covenant and were caught worshipping false gods, they were to be taken to the gates and stoned to death, but not unless there were 2 or 3 witnesses. Judges (priests) were only required if the matter was too difficult for non-priests to decide. I might add, which I left out about this law was that it pertains to believers, not heathens.

"Which part of GOD PROVIDES FOR HIS ENEMIES do we not understand here? WHICH PART of God appointed the govt and expects them to do their job for the PEOPLE, not the church do we struggle with?"
We have gone around and around with this issue. Yes, God ordained the government to protect the heathen people's free wills, but the government does not do the same for the church. As an example, using the believers tax money for things they oppose. Believers should not have to pay into that, their money should be used to benefit the church, not heathens.

"Didn't say he did for the Church. Who are you to judge what he sees fit for those outside the Church. That's above yours and my pay grade."
I apologize, I misunderstood your point.

"Errrr that is how they should Treat with them, not how they should follow the law. The law said they don't follow all the laws. That's why the council of Jerusalem ruled as it did.
The gentile "God Fearers" had aspects of the law they kept but not all of it. Thus the issue at the temple....
This verse... is about strangers, not fellow God fearing Gentiles..."
That is not true, below this comment are some, but not all, the scriptures that pertain to gers who live with the Israelites and the law. Part had to do with the way they were treated and part had to do with how they were to live under God's Law. Do a word study on H1616 for more scriptures. As for the Council of Jerusalem, those were the laws they gave them to start with, they would learn as they went. You could not possibly throw 613 commandments all at once at them. They started with the basics and worked up. These gentiles were stran(gers) who were God fearing.



1)One [sup]259[/sup] law [sup]8451[/sup] shall be to him that is homeborn [sup]249[/sup], and unto the stranger [sup]1616[/sup] that sojourneth [sup]1481[/sup] among [sup]8432[/sup] you.

2)Ye shall have one [sup]259[/sup] manner of law [sup]4941[/sup], as well for the stranger [sup]1616[/sup], as for one of your own country [sup]249[/sup]: for I [am] the LORD [sup]3068[/sup] your God [sup]430[/sup].

3)One [sup]259[/sup] ordinance [sup]2708[/sup] [shall be both] for you of the congregation [sup]6951[/sup], and also for the stranger [sup]1616[/sup] that sojourneth [sup]1481[/sup] [with you], an ordinance [sup]2708[/sup] for ever [sup]5769[/sup] in your generations [sup]1755[/sup]: as ye [are], so shall the stranger [sup]1616[/sup] be before [sup]6440[/sup] the LORD [sup]3068[/sup].

4)One [sup]259[/sup] law [sup]8451[/sup] and one [sup]259[/sup] manner [sup]4941[/sup] shall be for you, and for the stranger [sup]1616[/sup] that sojourneth [sup]1481[/sup] with you.

5)Ye shall have one [sup]259[/sup] law [sup]8451[/sup] for him that sinneth [sup]6213[/sup] through ignorance [sup]7684[/sup], [both for] him that is born [sup]249[/sup] among the children [sup]1121[/sup] of Israel [sup]3478[/sup], and for the stranger [sup]1616[/sup] that sojourneth [sup]1481[/sup] among [sup]8432[/sup] them.

"The covenant with the Jews was for them to keep the Law of Moses as a lifestyle of the godly to set them apart from the other
nations. The covenant with the believers among the other nations was referred to as the Noachian, or Noachide Laws.
The Noachian Laws were taken from the moral and spiritual principles derived basically from Genesis 9:47
Source...http://www.haydid.org/spirit2.htm I cheated, I didn't want to read all of leviticus to find what I couldn't find in a
search. And this isn't even MY idea, this is common teaching by Hebrew and Christian theologians alike..... Where do we
disconnect here? The council of Jerusalem is another support for my position...."
The covenant was with Israel, not Judahites (Jews). All Judahites are Israelites, but not all Israelites are Judahites. You may
want to do some research on these so called "Noachide Laws". This I will not do for you, I remain silent on this issue. As for the
Jerusalem Council, I all ready explained above.

"They chose to help God's plan come to fulfillment by disobeying him? You totally lost me again. That doesn't make sense.... "
All has to do with freewill for one, but not the other.

And here in lies your dilemma. He went to kill the son of GOd, you'd have been like Peter and stood before his will. With Gay
marriage you ignore numerous biblical principles to do what you think is right. To think you would have known about Christ,
something the Apostles didn't understand until Acts sometime.... seems a big stretch to me. I AM NOT DOUBTING YOUR HEART
OR WILL I am speaking of the likelihood of you living up to the claim you make.
No, I would not have been like Peter per se. Peter was forceful in his opposition, he was not reasoning with Yeshua, he was trying
to outright stop him from going through with it. I did state "had I known" and I also stated that "even the apostles did not understand". Go back and read
what I said at post #39. I know I would have tried to reason with Judas, but never compromising his free will. I would have been doing so in vain though
because I, like the apostles, would not have come to understand until later. Before I ever knew what was said between the pages of the Bible, I have
always tried to reason with people, but never force their hand. As Isaiah 1:18 says Come now, let us reason together...... I know
that is God talking to the Israelites in that passage, but since we are to be made in God's image, then it applies to us reasoning with our brethren as well.

"And if you reasoned with him TOO well, we are short one messiah. But you would have felt good at the time for sparing a great
man's life... and foiled God. (of course that's hypothetical....... but...)"
True, but Yeshua said Judas was a devil and a leopard cannot change his spots, so he most likely would not have listened to me
anyhow. Yeshua did say only His sheep can hear His voice, and Judas was no sheep.

"I can give you a list of a half dozen to a dozen biblical standards you violate if you champion the anti gay marriage cause. Would
that change your mind to find out that isolating this ONE SIN for focus as is being done, is against the Bible at a ratio of about 8
vss to 1?"
You can if you want, but I believe I made myself clear when I said it is all about the government seeing to one's free will, but not the others. I am not the
one in violaion, our government is when the believers tax money is used to fund abortions or whatever. I don't isolate any one sin, the topic was
marriage and worked towards same sex marriage. The topic could have been adultery or incest.

Ok, fine, IF this was a law, that interfered with YOUR WORSHIP OF GOD, this would be a valid comment. Paul said it's not his job
to judge those outside the Church. I'd assume that means it's not ours either. SO, since gay marriage wouldn't interfere with my
worship, I have no right to violate that concept nor to push the govt to act in a way that doesn't protect its people.
I touched on this above. What I don't get is how you think that God's church should be required to marry same sex people. Is that or is that not in
violation of the churches free will to say "NO!"?


"I have no clue how this fits in here.... I'm now on to the next note."
The link I provided answered what you perceive as a paradox.

"We don't agree. I enjoy communicating with you. Please understand my use of the YOU pronoun is usually in a general sense in these commentaries. I appreciate that your arguments aren't emotional driven, are very logical, and you are true to your beliefs."
We don't, but we do. Likewise. I knew what you were doing. I feel an emotional and illogical tantrum coming on. Yes I am, but willing to change when more truth is revealed.

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[dragonfly]

Hi XP,

I see why they want the word 'marriage', but it is a humanistic argument which re-enforces their lack of respect for God's laws and standards.

Of course that could be called honest, as long as the word honest is not being confused with true, truth, righteousness or genuine integrity.

No-one working to promote the corruption of 'marriage', should overlook that God will stir up in favour of His own case, or, start saving His wrath and vengeance for a later date. This is the opposite of what Gamaliel spoke about... when it was God's people stirring up to be heard.

 

[Elle]

[background=white]"Apparently I overlooked this last section of your post.[/background]

[background=white]1)"You:God doing what you would call evil things, are also for His plan." [/background]
[background=white]"Me:God does not perform sinful (evil) acts, man does and God judges accordingly. God creates the calamity, not evil as it has been translated. The calamity is the result of our disobedience."[/background]
[background=white]"You:Well not only does \scripture say otherwise, genocide, murder, Calamity is not disobedience. Do you think New Orleans had a hurricane because they were evil? What about Galveston two years before, did the girls show too much cheek at the beach? The guys too much lust??? God causes calamity for HIS purposes. If you think anything on earth happens and it's not His will, then we are discussing different Gods. The God I know is in control."[/background]

So are you saying God murders? That commandment that erroneously reads "Thou shall not kill" should read "Thou shalt not MURDER". Killing and murdering are 2 different things. I never said calamity is disobedience, I said calamity is brought about by disobedience. It's pretty obvious that New Orleans is a cesspool, definitely one of those nekar (stranger) cities I would not lodge in. I would say God brought about that calamity as a warning.

[background=white]2)"You: All of those were things that the church was against and screamed it would bring the world to an end. It didn't happen.[/background][background=white]"[/background]
[background=white]"Me:Eventually it will bring God's wrath[/background]
[background=white]"You:"Where you say His wrath will come to us for allowing it to happen, has no biblical foundation at all."[/background]
[background=white]"Me:Tell that to Sodom and Gomorah, tell that to the people who died in the flood, tell that to Pharoh, tell that to the Jews when they were destroyed along with the temple, tell it to the people who will be cast into the Great Tribulation."[/background]
[background=white]"You:What do they have to do with it? That's a bygone era and dispensation. The tribulation example wouldn't apply. There is nothing anywhere about Him forcing people's hand on earth with punishment, post christ until the trib, if that even happens.... AND the trib occurs when there is no tomorrow as far as the way we live now. To say he'd bring his wrath on the people for not forcing gay people to not have protection, that's just silly talk. WE ARE NOT TO JUDGE THEM AND WE ARE TO PROVIDE FOR HIS ENEMIES. We do not do that with the position the Church holds today. I guess according to your view all the churches are going to be hit by tornadoes." [/background]

[background=white]If you understood who America was given to, it would all make sense. All of these examples are to show you God's wrath on a wicked people, what He has done once, He will do again. There's nothing new under the sun. As for the churches, many of which are lukewarm, they will be spit out into the Great Tribulation to be purified, those who take the mark are done for. God's wrath are those 7 vials.[/background]

[background=white]3)"You:And 1 john 1:8 is the most abused verse in the bible. Especially since a few vss earlier JOhn said him and others no longer sinned. [/background][background=white] :) That's an entirely different thread.[/background]
[background=white]The people at Carm have refused that debate with me. If you can make it happen I'll buy you a 50 amazon gift card. [/background][background=white] :) They abuse the verse. They deny the very scripture deliberately and clearly to make their case." [/background]

[background=white]I feel that their understanding is accurate, so I will take it as truth unless something else comes along that makes more sense.[/background]

[background=white]4)"You: You've managed to arrive peacefully to where disagree and to what extent we sorta agree. And the places we don't agree we can still discuss."[/background]
[background=white]"Me:If it opposes God's Law in any way, I will never comply, but we can continue the discussion if you like."[/background]
[background=white]"You:Your position violates Paul on don't judge those outside the church. [/background]
[background=white]It violates Christ's command to be perfect like the father is perfect, which means love and provide for enemies as well. I don't understand how you can evade those rules, and isolate gay position on marriage and attack it so. It requires blinders."[/background]

[background=white]I could care less if I violate Paul, seeing he is a false apostle who violated Yeshua by preaching another Yeshua. You feel I am in violation, I don't know how many different ways I can say that I do not intend to override their free will. It (same sex marriage, adultery, murder, etc..) is a violation of God's Law if you place yourself under His covenant. I agreed with you from the start that the church should not force their beliefs on an outsider, only share the good news. I know I am to love my enemy, but what does the Bible define as our enemy? Well according to Matthew 10:36, our enemies are our own family. Does this mean your immediate family? I don't think so, I think it means your brethren in the church. You, yourself, have stated that others on this forum have attacked you. Those are your enemies. Forgive me for saying so, but when you out one of your brethren on this or any forum, you are not turning the other cheek. Just as Yeshua's own turned on him, so will our own turn on us. Yeshua did not allow himself to become a welcome mat to be walked upon and neither should we. He corrected his brethren for holding to the traditions of men, he warned them about the leaven of the Pharisees, he called them whited sepulchers that contained dead men's bones, he did not cower in fear. He stated the truth in love, no matter what it would cost him. Much like the nations outside Israel, who were indeed brothers through blood via Noah's sons, they attacked Israel for their beliefs in the one, true God. In Deuteronomy 23, God instructed the Israelites (symbolic of the true church) not to seek the Ammonites or Moabites (symbolic of the false church) peace and prosperity for they failed to bring them bread and water (God's true word) and for hiring Balaam (false ministers) against Israel. Don't think for one minute that we do not have spiritual Ammonites/Moabites running around today doing just that. Those gentile heathens tried to turn the Israelites against God just as the heathens of today are trying to turn the true church against God. One thing I failed to realize through this whole conversation was the simple fact that God's people are in CAPTIVITY. I mean, I knew we have been, but it impacted me last night when God yelled it to me. So, seeing we are in captivity, we, like Daniel, must comply to the laws of the land that we have been scattered to. We must be a light amongst them, even King Darius was so impressed with Daniel, that he thought of setting him over the whole kingdom. Daniel never compromised himself. If that country we are living amongst, calls for us to worship another god, we must not bow. In reality, I have no control over where my tax money is spent, thus I am providing for the heathens. Yeshua will return and free his people and bring his wrath against those who would not have him rule over them. These people despise God's Laws and His ways. Our "brethren" have made God's word null and void by compromise. I guess what I am trying to say is that those who have professed a belief in God, but continue to preach that Christmas is OK, Sabbath breaking is OK, eating pig is OK, homosexuality inside the church is OK etc. are our brethren, but they are the real heathen outsiders. They won't enter in and they keep others from entering in. The Bible was written for believers only and no one else. How can one (in this case the church) be a light to the world, when they approve amongst themselves things in opposition to God? We are called to lead them (those outside the church) to the light, not follow them into darkness. We have a ton of wolves in our midst pretending to be sheep. What does a rancher (God) do to a wolf (false church) attacking his flock (true church), He destroys the wolf. The wolves need to be destroyed, so the sheep can do God's will effectively and without compromise. [/background]

 

[marksman]

The Church's gay marriage bashing, rabid, fervor, is Anti Christ. Not for it. It's bigotry, pure and simple. We've seen it before, and we are seeing it again.

it would be remiss of me to allow this claim to go unchallenged as it is totally untrue.

The battle for same sex marriage (SSM) is primarily a battle for truth versus lies. It is a product of satan as he is the father of lies. I have taken a comprehensive look at the claims of the pink gaystapo and almost all of them are lies and I will explain the reason for their name which has been given to them all over the world.

Some of the lies are.......

Jesus never said anything about homosexuality.

Homosexuals make as good as parents as natural parents

SSM is a right

Not being allowed to marry makes us second class people.

You are homophobic if you don't agree with SSM.

Not acceding to our demands is intolerant and bigoted.

SSM will mean more committed relationships.

Homosexual relationships last as long if not longer than heterosexual relationships.

Church ministers will not have to marry homosexuals and lesbians.

The question is, if they have a legitimate cause, why do they have to tell so many lies?

In addition, why do they expend so much time and energy shouting down the truth and physically intimidating those that do tell the truth?

Apart from a few isolated incidents which are not representative of the church as a whole, there is no such thing as "gay bashing." What there is is church bashing by the pink gaystapo on a regular basis. I note that although the muslims have publicly declared their opposition to homosexuality and SSM, the pink gaystapo are totally silent when it comes to what muslims say and believe. What you might call selective rage.

There is nothing bigoted in agreeing with God and his word. He has created us and made us to express ourselves in specific terms. That is why he created us male and female. Every believer has a right to say what they believe is the truth. No homosexual has the right to say they do not have that right. Bigotry is a word hijacked by the pink gaystapo to make those that see things differently into the aggressor whereas the opposite is the truth.

One common statement is that those who shout the loudest about intolerance, bigotry and hatred are the ones that are the most intolerant, bigoted and hateful.

The term "pink gaystapo"? They have adopted the colour pink to hide their manhood. Gaystapo because they have this strange idea that their view is the only valid one and they will do all they can to enforce it.

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