Easter

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Webers_Home

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The original Easter occurred on the first day of the Jews' week. (Matt 28:1,
Mark 16:1-2, and John 20:1)

However, the first day of the Jews' week isn't the anchor for Jesus'
resurrection. The real anchor is whatever night of the week that the paschal
lamb is eaten, and the date for that night floats on the civil calendar, i.e. it
isn't fixed like Christmas and birthdays.

The paschal dinner is always eaten at night; viz: after the sun goes down--
all the way down. This year's night for the dinner will commence after
sundown on Friday April 19 which means that Jesus would die on the cross
the afternoon of that same day because his death occurred during the
afternoon of the day that the Jews were preparing for their paschal lamb
dinner. (John 18:28, John 19:14)

So if we begin counting the three days that Jesus predicted in John 2:19
with sunrise April 20; then Easter this year would take place after sunrise on
April 22; in other words: Easter would take place on a Monday this year
instead of Sunday.

The three nights that Jesus predicted in Matt 12:40 are counted by
beginning with the night of the paschal dinner. Seeing as it's scheduled to
begin after sundown April 19, then that night becomes the first night; and
the third night would then begin after sundown April 21.
_
 

BreadOfLife

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.The original Easter occurred on the first day of the Jews' week. (Matt 28:1,Mark 16:1-2, and John 20:1)

However, the first day of the Jews' week isn't the anchor for Jesus'
resurrection. The real anchor is whatever night of the week that the paschal lamb is eaten, and the date for that night floats on the civil calendar, i.e. it
isn't fixed like Christmas and birthdays.

The paschal dinner is always eaten at night; viz: after the sun goes down--
all the way down. This year's night for the dinner will commence after sundown on Friday April 19 which means that Jesus would die on the cross
the afternoon of that same day because his death occurred during the afternoon of the day that the Jews were preparing for their paschal lamb dinner. (John 18:28, John 19:14)

So if we begin counting the three days that Jesus predicted in John 2:19
with sunrise April 20; then Easter this year would take place after sunrise on April 22; in other words: Easter would take place on a Monday this year
instead of Sunday.

The three nights that Jesus predicted in Matt 12:40 are counted by
beginning with the night of the paschal dinner. Seeing as it's scheduled to begin after sundown April 19, then that night becomes the first night; and
the third night would then begin after sundown April 21._
Why the same, tired old idiocy every single year??
Why is it that 21st century people refuse to understand a Jewish culture from 2000 years ago - especially when they have the Bible to show them the way??

Jesus died on a Friday and rose on Sunday. 2000 years of Christians aren't "wrong" because YOU discovered they were 2000 years later. The arrogance of people like YOU is comical because it shows your complete lack of understanding of how Jews reckoned a "day and night".

ANY part of a day or night was reckoned as a full day. A perfect example of this is when Esther asked the people to fast for 3 DAYS and 3 NIGHTS (Esth. 4:16) before she was to see the King. ON the third day, she went to see the King (Est. 5:1).
Neither the Day nor the Night had passed yet - but that day was counted as a FULL DAY.

Your fellow PROTESTANT scholars agree:
R. T. France
states: “Three days and three nights was a Jewish idiom to a period covering only two nights” (Matthew, 213).

D. A. Carson, who is considered one of the deans of conservative Protestant Bible exegesis, notes: “In rabbinical thought a day and a night make an onah, and a part of an onah is as the whole. . . . Thus according to Jewish tradition, ‘three days and three nights’ need mean no more than ‘three days’ or the combination of any part of three separate days” (Expositor’s Bible Commentary, 8:296).

Jesus was buried on Friday - BEFORE sunset = 1st Day
Sundown on Friday until Sundown on Saturday = 2nd Day
Sundown on Saturday - Sunday morning = 3rd Day

Biblical case CLOSED.
 
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Webers_Home

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I didn't begin the thread intending to prove that Good Friday is an error. It's
merely to show what day of the week that Easter would fall on were Jesus
crucified in 2019.


BTW: Easter would fall on Saturday April 11 were he crucified in 2020, and
Tuesday March 30 were he crucified in 2021.
_
 

farouk

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I guess that there will be a lot of comment as the Easter holiday approaches.

Good to keep in mind the doctrine of the Resurrection! :) (1 Corinthians 15).
 

BreadOfLife

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Where's your third night?
_
Where was Esther's 3rd night, Einstein??
I already explained to you that ANY part of a day was reckoned as a FULL day.

"3 days" and "3 nights" could be any part of 3 separate days - sundown to sundown.
 

Webers_Home

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In my opinion, the final authority in discussions related to the days and
nights predicted in Matt 12:40 is Jesus Christ because he was actually living
in Israel during the week in question.

John 11:9-10 . . Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in
the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world. But if
anyone walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him.

This world's light is of course the Sun as per Gen 1:14-18. So then, when
Jesus was here; day was when the sun is up and night was when the sun is
down; meaning of course that the three days and three nights of Matt 12:40
indicate three times when the sun was up, and three times when the sun
was down; i.e. relative to Christ's crucifixion and resurrection: days began
with sunrise and nights began with sundown.


FYI: Days divided into twelve equal periods of sunlight were regulated by
what's known as temporal hours; which vary in length in accordance with
the time of year. There are times of the year at Jerusalem's latitude when
this world's light consists of less than 12 normal hours of sun, and
sometimes more; but when Jesus was here; the official number of hours was
always twelve regardless.

I don't exactly know why the Jews of that era divided their days into twelve
equal periods of sunlight regardless of the seasons, but I suspect it was just
a convenient way to operate the government and conduct civil affairs;
including the Temple's activities (e.g. the daily morning and evening
sacrifices)
_
 

BreadOfLife

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.In my opinion, the final authority in discussions related to the days and nights predicted in Matt 12:40 is Jesus Christ because he was actually living
in Israel during the week in question.

John 11:9-10 . . Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in
the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world. But if anyone walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him.

This world's light is of course the Sun as per Gen 1:14-18. So then, when
Jesus was here; day was when the sun is up and night was when the sun is down; meaning of course that the three days and three nights of Matt 12:40
indicate three times when the sun was up, and three times when the sun was down; i.e. relative to Christ's crucifixion and resurrection: days began with sunrise and nights began with sundown.


FYI: Days divided into twelve equal periods of sunlight were regulated by what's known as temporal hours; which vary in length in accordance with the time of year. There are times of the year at Jerusalem's latitude when this world's light consists of less than 12 normal hours of sun, and sometimes more; but when Jesus was here; the official number of hours was always twelve regardless.

I don't exactly know why the Jews of that era divided their days into twelve
equal periods of sunlight regardless of the seasons, but I suspect it was just a convenient way to operate the government and conduct civil affairs; including the Temple's activities (e.g. the daily morning and evening sacrifices)_
Your first and BIGGEST mistake (in RED) is your incredible arrogance, as usual.
You just "can't understand" how YOU could be wrong.

Well, if you knew Jewish culture and were familiar with texts like the story of Esther, Jesus's death on a Friday and Resurrection on a Sunday morning wouldn't have been that big a surprise for you.

Consequently, the Early Church immediately started meeting on the first day of the week (Sunday) and referred to it as "The Lord's Day" (Acts 20:7, 1 Cor. 16:2, Rev. 1:10). This is ALSO the ONLY day that is singled out by the Early Church Fathers as the day of the Resurrection - UNANIMOUSLY.
 
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Webers_Home

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the Early Church immediately started meeting on the first day of the week


If you weren't so agitated you'd see that I'm not trying to do away with
a very satisfactory Christian tradition. But you're simply going to have to
accept that as Passover moves around the calendar from year to year, it
moves Easter right along with it because the night of the paschal lamb is a
floating feast; it's not a fixed date on the civil calendar. As a result, were Jesus
to be crucified this year in 2019, his resurrection would fall on a Monday instead
of Sunday.
_
 
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BreadOfLife

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.If you weren't so agitated you'd see that I'm not trying to do away with a very satisfactory Christian tradition. But you're simply going to have to accept that as Passover moves around the calendar from year to year, it moves Easter right along with it because the night of the paschal lamb is a floating feast; it's not a fixed date on the civil calendar. As a result, were Jesus to be crucified this year in 2019, his resurrection would fall on a Monday instead of Sunday._
Not if He were crucified and buried on Friday afternoon, as He was.
YOU stated:
"The three nights that Jesus predicted in Matt 12:40 are counted by beginning with the night of the paschal dinner."

The "three days" and "three nights" are not literal 24 hour periods in Jewish reckoning.
The first day began with Friday when He was sealed in the tomb. There were only 2 literal nights (Fri. Sat.), 1 FULL day and portions of 2 other days (Fri./Sun.).
 

marksman

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The original Easter occurred on the first day of the Jews' week. (Matt 28:1,
Mark 16:1-2, and John 20:1)

However, the first day of the Jews' week isn't the anchor for Jesus'
resurrection. The real anchor is whatever night of the week that the paschal
lamb is eaten, and the date for that night floats on the civil calendar, i.e. it
isn't fixed like Christmas and birthdays.

The paschal dinner is always eaten at night; viz: after the sun goes down--
all the way down. This year's night for the dinner will commence after
sundown on Friday April 19 which means that Jesus would die on the cross
the afternoon of that same day because his death occurred during the
afternoon of the day that the Jews were preparing for their paschal lamb
dinner. (John 18:28, John 19:14)

So if we begin counting the three days that Jesus predicted in John 2:19
with sunrise April 20; then Easter this year would take place after sunrise on
April 22; in other words: Easter would take place on a Monday this year
instead of Sunday.

The three nights that Jesus predicted in Matt 12:40 are counted by
beginning with the night of the paschal dinner. Seeing as it's scheduled to
begin after sundown April 19, then that night becomes the first night; and
the third night would then begin after sundown April 21.
_

Nice cut and paste but the word or idea of Easter is not found in scripture.
 

BreadOfLife

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.I have no use for the Good Friday model because its missing third night
discredits Jesus and makes a mockery of Christianity._
This is plain hogwash from a person who neither understands Scripture nor Jewish culture.

As I explained - ANY part of a day is reckoned as a FULL day as we see in the story of Esther (Esth. 4:16, 5:1).

I ALSO gave you the scholarly opinions of 2 of your most eminent Protestant scholars who AGREE with this position (D.A. Carson, R.T. France). In fact, the MAJORITY of Protestant scholarship and the UNANIMOUS opinion of the Early Church was that Christ was crucified and buried on Friday and rose on Sunday.

Finally - I was correct in my judgement of your original post even though you claimed you weren't trying to discredit the Christian norms surrounding Christ's Death and Resurrection. Your posts are always transparent . . .
 

Webers_Home

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the word or idea of Easter is not found in scripture.

Most everyone the world over knows that Easter commemorates Jesus
Christ's resurrection; but the thing that needs to be told over and over again
is that without it, his crucifixion would've been futile.

1Cor 15:17 . . If Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are
still in your sins.

Let me explain.

Rom 4:25 . . He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to
life for our justification.

The first half of that verse speaks of Isa 53:6

"We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way;
and The Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all."

The second half of Rom 4:25 speaks of "justification" which is translated
from the Greek word dikaiosis (dik-ah'-yo-sis) which means acquittal;
defined as an adjudication of innocence.

In other words; it's by means of Christ's resurrection that people can get
their records spoken of in Rev 20:11-15 cleared so that on the books it's as
though they've never been anything but 100% innocent.

Were I the Devil, the one component of Christianity that I would make my
mission in life to invalidate is Christ's resurrection because it is by means of
belief in his resurrection that hell-bound people have the opportunity to
obtain an acquittal. Failure to believe it will result in losing their one
God-given chance to wipe the books; and thus they'll remain on a sure-fire
path to the sum of all fears.
_
 

Webers_Home

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the MAJORITY of Protestant scholarship and the UNANIMOUS opinion of the
Early Church was that Christ was crucified and buried on Friday.


There are a number of feast days in the Old Testament that are just as much
sabbaths as routine sabbaths. There's the first and last days of the feast Of
Unleavened Bread, a.k.a. Passover (Lev 23:5-8), there's Yom Kippur (Lev
16:29-31), and there's the feast of Trumpets. (Lev 23:23-25)

It could be argued that whereas Yom Kippur and the Feast of Trumpets are
specifically called sabbaths; the first day of the feast of Unleavened Bread
isn't. It's set aside for an holy convocation. But routine sabbaths are called
holy convocations too (Lev 23:2-3). Anyway; John calls the first day of the
feast of Unleavened Bread a sabbath (John 19:31) which pretty much settles
it for me.

Passover sabbaths are interesting. Routine sabbaths always fall on the very
same day of the week every time. But Passover sabbaths float; hence they
can, and they do, occur on any given day of the civil calendar; sometimes
even coincident with a routine sabbath; for example 2018 and 2019, and
sometimes consecutive with a routine sabbath; for example 2008.

The Passover sabbath that occurred during the week that Jesus was crucified
is a sneaky sabbath that easily escapes people's notice. By failing to reckon
with it, they end up stuck with the Good Friday model; which of course is
unworkable.


FAQ: If it's true there was a second sabbath in crucifixion week-- one of the
Passover sabbaths --then where would we place it in the chronology?


A: It began at sundown the afternoon of Christ's burial. (John 19:31)

FAQ: Where would we place the routine sabbath?

A: It followed on the heels of the Passover sabbath and is seen when the
women went out to the cemetery. (Matt 28:1, Mark 16:1)

So the order of events is:

Sunday was resurrection day.
Saturday was a routine sabbath day.
Friday was a Passover sabbath day.
Thursday was crucifixion day.


FAQ: That's a total of four days. Isn't that one too many?

A: It's tempting to count the afternoon of Christ's burial as one of the days
as per Matt 12:40 and John 2:19-22, but don't do it. Wait until the Jews'
preparation for Passover comes to an end and they're ready to sit down and
dine upon their lambs before starting to tally the days and nights or your
chronology won't come out right. It's essential to leave crucifixion day set
aside for the slaughtering of lambs; including the one on the cross.
_
 

BreadOfLife

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.There are a number of feast days in the Old Testament that are just as much sabbaths as routine sabbaths. There's the first and last days of the feast Of Unleavened Bread, a.k.a. Passover (Lev 23:5-8), there's Yom Kippur (Lev 16:29-31), and there's the feast of Trumpets. (Lev 23:23-25)

It could be argued that whereas Yom Kippur and the Feast of Trumpets are
specifically called sabbaths; the first day of the feast of Unleavened Bread isn't. It's set aside for an holy convocation. But routine sabbaths are called
holy convocations too (Lev 23:2-3). Anyway; John calls the first day of the feast of Unleavened Bread a sabbath (John 19:31) which pretty much settles it for me.

Passover sabbaths are interesting. Routine sabbaths always fall on the very
same day of the week every time. But Passover sabbaths float; hence they can, and they do, occur on any given day of the civil calendar; sometimes even coincident with a routine sabbath; for example 2018 and 2019, and sometimes consecutive with a routine sabbath; for example 2008.

The Passover sabbath that occurred during the week that Jesus was crucified
is a sneaky sabbath that easily escapes people's notice. By failing to reckon with it, they end up stuck with the Good Friday model; which of course is unworkable.


FAQ: If it's true there was a second sabbath in crucifixion week-- one of the Passover sabbaths --then where would we place it in the chronology?

A: It began at sundown the afternoon of Christ's burial. (John 19:31)

FAQ: Where would we place the routine sabbath?

A: It followed on the heels of the Passover sabbath and is seen when the women went out to the cemetery. (Matt 28:1, Mark 16:1)

So the order of events is:
Sunday was resurrection day.
Saturday was a routine sabbath day.
Friday was a Passover sabbath day.
Thursday was crucifixion day.


FAQ: That's a total of four days. Isn't that one too many?

A: It's tempting to count the afternoon of Christ's burial as one of the days as per Matt 12:40 and John 2:19-22, but don't do it. Wait until the Jews' preparation for Passover comes to an end and they're ready to sit down and
dine upon their lambs before starting to tally the days and nights or your chronology won't come out right. It's essential to leave crucifixion day set aside for the slaughtering of lambs; including the one on the cross.
_
First of all - it's not "MY" chronology. This is the constant living tradition of 2000 years of Christianity.
So, tell me - WHAT motive would the Early Church have for screwing around with the days of the Death, Burial and Resurrection of our Lord??

They died horrible, unspeakable deaths in the name of the Resurrection., which is the crux of the Christian faith. You would THINK that they would do everything in their power to make sure they got it right.

YOUR
detached 21st century rationalizations simply show a stunning ignorance of Scripture and Jewish culture . . .
 

FHII

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Regarding 3 days and 3 nights being a Jewish idiom: I debunked this misconception about 10 months ago. Here is an excerpt:

2nd Point and most damaging. I am going to refer to an actual Rabbi. Rabbi David Markel Hall:

"It is claimed that the reference in Matthew 12:40 is an idiom in attempt to explain away the three days and nights. However, phrases which include the words "and night(s)" are not considered to be idioms.... Therefore using the phrase, "days and nights" removes the phrase from the realm of idioms and causes the understanding to become three literal twenty four hour periods of time."

There you have it from an actual Rabbi! 3 days and 3 nights is not an idiom. "The third day"... That can be an idiom. So when Ester says she visited the king on the third day: idiom. When she requested a 3 day and night fast: 72 hours. Jesus rising on the 3rd day: idiom. Jesus in the heart of the earth 3 days and 3 nights: 72 hours.

Conclusion:

Though this may not be the end of the debate on the passion week timeline, it really should put an end to the belief that 3 days and 3 nights is an idiom.

http://m.tzion.org/site/articles/threedays.html

I bumped the old thread up in case anyone is interested in viewing it.
 

BreadOfLife

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Regarding 3 days and 3 nights being a Jewish idiom: I debunked this misconception about 10 months ago. Here is an excerpt:

2nd Point and most damaging. I am going to refer to an actual Rabbi. Rabbi David Markel Hall:

"It is claimed that the reference in Matthew 12:40 is an idiom in attempt to explain away the three days and nights. However, phrases which include the words "and night(s)" are not considered to be idioms.... Therefore using the phrase, "days and nights" removes the phrase from the realm of idioms and causes the understanding to become three literal twenty four hour periods of time."

There you have it from an actual Rabbi! 3 days and 3 nights is not an idiom. "The third day"... That can be an idiom. So when Ester says she visited the king on the third day: idiom. When she requested a 3 day and night fast: 72 hours. Jesus rising on the 3rd day: idiom. Jesus in the heart of the earth 3 days and 3 nights: 72 hours.

Conclusion:

Though this may not be the end of the debate on the passion week timeline, it really should put an end to the belief that 3 days and 3 nights is an idiom.

http://m.tzion.org/site/articles/threedays.html

I bumped the old thread up in case anyone is interested in viewing it.
And give me 3 Rabbis on just about ANY topic and I'll give you three different opinions.
Give me 3 Protestants on any doctrinal matter and I'll give you three different opinions.

Sorry - gotta go with Apostolic Tradition and 1st century understanding of the wording along with the Early Church practices - not 21st century quarterbacks injecting their own opinions on the matter.

The Early Church simply did not have ANY motive or agenda for lying about the chain of events regarding our Lord's death, burial and resurrection . . .


PS -
While you're busy dealing with that - ask your Rabbi to reconcile the story of Esther's "3 days" and "3 nights" . . .
 

FHII

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And give me 3 Rabbis on just about ANY topic and I'll give you three different opinions.


Well then rustle up two more and let's see what they have to say! While we are at it we can ask them if Jewish fasts that are called for 3 days and 3 nights can include partial days. That's what Ester called for. I don't think you are going to win that point.

Sorry - gotta go with Apostolic Tradition and 1st century understanding of the wording along with the Early Church practices - not 21st century quarterbacks injecting their own opinions on the matter.

If you want to go to true apostolic tradition (the gospels) I am game!

You bring to the table "it's common knowledge it's an idiom". When did any Apostle say that or any theologian in the 1st century? The earliest date I can find is between 1546 and 1555. I, on the other hand, brought to the table a Rabbi. I would think he may know something about HIS history and HIS traditions and HIS idioms.

You want to say he is just a 21st century quarterback who is espousing his own opinions, then so be it. At least I brought something beyond "common knowledge" which hasn't been proved.

The Early Church simply did not have ANY motive or agenda for lying about the chain of events regarding our Lord's death, burial and resurrection . . .

Never said they did. I am not saying they didn't either. But I am saying that it is wrong.