Edward Fudge: Hero Or Heretic?

[amadeus]

The question is, how can he live on in Heaven when he's dead?

For the moment there are people with death still in them walking around, but striving for more of Life and an end to any death. This is the struggle that goes on now in each one who has met Jesus but has not yet overcome all that He overcame:

"From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?" James 4:1

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33 (He did not overcome planet Earth.)

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7

And where is heaven or should we say where the various [3] heavens? What is the difference between those three? Jesus was here as a man and yet was in all three heavens, was he not?

Was Jesus in heaven when they were torturing him and when he was dying on the cross?

 

[amadeus]

Worms:

Are they man's soul or man's destroyer.. that is the ones that actually consume the flesh in the grave?

"And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." Isa 66:24

"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Mark 9:43-44

"Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee." Isa 14:11


"For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation." Isa 51:8


"Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave those which have sinned. The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him; he shall be no more remembered; and wickedness shall be broken as a tree." Job 24:19-20

 

[Episkopos]

Worms:

Are they man's soul or man's destroyer.. that is the ones that actually consume the flesh in the grave?

"And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." Isa 66:24

"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Mark 9:43-44

"Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee." Isa 14:11


"For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation." Isa 51:8


"Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave those which have sinned. The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him; he shall be no more remembered; and wickedness shall be broken as a tree." Job 24:19-20

It should be remembered that Luther had a Diet of Worms.

 

[amadeus]

It should be remembered that Luther had a Diet of Worms.

LOL

 

[ChristisGod]

I as a Seventh-day Adventist, who adheres to the Bible (KJB) for all matters of faith and Practice, believe in what it teaches, annihilation.

​

Anabaptist (generally and anciently) and later Mennonite (some):

Paulsen, for instance, says,

"The imagery of the soul's sleep expresses the nature of the interim state of the soul; the idea that the soul sleeps is substantiated by those who have been roused from the dead, inasmuch as the awakened ones can give no information about death, as would be the case if they had remained fully conscious." - The Mennonite Encyclopedia: A Comprehensive Reference Work on the Anabaptist-Mennonite Movement, Volume 4 - Link​

"... [Anabaptists] taught the sleep of the soul in death and eternal life only in Christ received at the resurrection. This inevitably developed into tension with the established churches, which in turn resulted in prohibition of the Anabaptist assemblies." - Martin Luther's Views on Conditionalism and Soul Sleep​

Seventh-day Anabaptists:

"[Doctrine held generally] Soul Sleep (conditional immortality of the soul)." - Seventh Day Anabaptists: Doctrines of the Anabaptists influence continue in the heart of bible believing Christians

"Nearly all of them [Anabaptists] taught both soul-sleep and the final annihilation of the wicked" - The Anabaptists and their Stepchildren - F.N. Lee | Reformed Theology at Semper Reformanda​

General Baptists

In his "Institutes of Ecclesiastical History" chancellor of the University of Gottingen, Johann L. von Mosheim records that the "General Baptists" where spread in large numbers over many of the provinces of England As one article of faith they held "that the soul, between death and the resurrection at the last day, has neither pleasure nor pain, but is in a state of insensibility." - [see Page 697] Mosheim's Institutes of Ecclesiastical History, Ancient and Modern​

John Calvin (who wrote against in his Psychopannychia (1534), which is where most Calvinist Baptist get the idea of immediate hell/heaven reward), Friedrich Spanheim & Karl Muller wrote about the Anabaptists, and documented their beliefs:

"Calvin, in his Psychopannychia (1544), counts the Anabaptists as one of the groups believing in the sleep of the soul ... Also Friedrich Spannheim asserts that the Mennonites held the belief in the sleep of the soul ... Karl Müller, the church historian of Tübingen, thought the doctrine was definitely held by the Anabaptists in the Romance countries"​

Samuel Richardson (1633-1658)

Pastor, First Particular Baptist Church, of London wrote a discourse entitled :
"A Discourse on the Torments of Hell : The Foundations and Pillars therof discover'd, serch'd, shaken, and remov'd. With Infallible Proofs that there is not to be a punishment after this Life, for any to endure that shall never end" 1658 [see also Page 70 herem right hand top Column] - A Baptist Bibliography​

Modern era:

Warren Prestidge (M.A., B.D. Hons) is a Baptist pastor. His first degree was in English and he has taught at Auckland University and at secondary school. Since 1981, he has pastored churches in Auckland and also lectured for the Bible College of New Zealand and Tyndale College. For two years he directed a Bible College in the Philippines. He authored Life, Death and Destiny. -

"According to the Bible, the dead, whether Christian or non-Christian, good or evil, saved or lost, are neither suffering in “hell”, nor labouring in “purgatory”, nor rejoicing in “heaven”. Rather, they have entirely ceased to function. Without consciousness, they await the resurrection of the dead at the return of the Christ, that is, Jesus, in the glory of God. To use a common biblical metaphor, they “sleep the sleep of death” (Ps. 13:3)." - Sleep of death | Soul Sleep - Afterlife | Conditional Immortality​

Modern Others:

"... annihilationists come from and are part of any number of different denominations. ...

... E. Earle Ellis was a professor of theology at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary (Southern Baptist Convention) until he fell asleep. Similarly, Dale Moody taught at Southern Baptist Seminary (also SBC). I bet you never thought conservative Southern Baptists would hold this view! Claude Mariottini, Old Testament professor at Northern Baptist Seminary (American Baptist Convention), is also an annihilationist, 7 ..." - Don’t Be Afraid to Rethink Hell: Why Other Beliefs Needn’t Get In Your Way

"... I was a few weeks into the research when I read an article by a renown Southern Baptist New Testament scholar named E. Earle Ellis titled “The New Testament Teaching on Hell.” In it, he argued fairly and thoroughly that the New Testament advocates for an annihilation view of hell. This caught me off guard; I didn’t know he was going to argue for this. I read the article very casually, thinking it was going to be yet another defense of the traditional view. After all, Ellis is Southern Baptist. He’s evangelical. And he didn’t front his view at the beginning. He simply looked at all the relevant passages, exegeted them (with the exegetical methods I was taught in seminary), and then concluded that hell would not last forever; that is, its inhabitants would not experience everlasting conscious torment. And Ellis argued this from the text. ..." - Is Annihilation an Evangelical Option?

E. Earle Ellis ; New Testament Teaching on Hell - Rethinking Hell

Edward Fudge: Hell & Mr. Fudge - https://edwardfudge.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/excerptTFTC3.pdf

Re-enactment (Film), Hell & Mr. Fudge - Hell & Mr Fudge - Edward Fudge : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive or here - Matthew_ten_Verseight​

everyone is wrong about something and it looks like you found this entire group wrong on this topic. I vote HERETICAL TEACHING.

 

[Waiting on him]

LOL

That’s crazy. Was this a form of penitence, or did he have a taste for them?

 

[amadeus]

That’s crazy. Was this a form of penitence, or did he have a taste for them?

It is a play on words!

 

[Enoch111]

Consumption, Burning, Cleaning Out

More OUT OF CONTEXT Scriptures. Some people never learn.

 

[BarneyFife]

Are you saying that believers don't die physically, that our bodies don't die?

Absolutely not saying that.

When humans "die," our souls separate from our bodies.

Yes, they burn away all that is not worth saving! Will there be any, who in the end of the matter, have nothing at all, in the eyes of God, worth saving? Too bad our @Helen is not here to respond to this. A little touch [or more than a little?] of universalism? No, I am not a universalist!

I believe that even hell itself is an act of mercy on the part of God. In the end, He is relieving them of something that would, in fact, be torture to them: Companionship with saints and angels, and a holy God.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Absolutely not saying that.


I believe that even hell itself is an act of mercy on the part of God. In the end, He is relieving them of something that would, in fact, be torture to them: Companionship with saints and angels, and a holy God.

I'm not up to debating this issue today, and I really don't want to fight about it. I believe what Jesus said, that the wicked would endure "eternal punishment." Like I say about everything else that Christians fight about, we'll all find out the truth when all is said and done.

So...hope you have a blessed day!

 

[ChristisGod]

I'm not up to debating this issue today, and I really don't want to fight about it. I believe what Jesus said, that the wicked would endure "eternal punishment." Like I say about everything else that Christians fight about, we'll all find out the truth when all is said and done.

So...hope you have a blessed day!

Oh no doubt the truth is there will be eternal torment for the wicked just as there is eternal life and bliss for the righteous. That is the teaching of Jesus who is God the Son Incarnate.

The bible is very clear that there is eternal torment for the wicked. They will have a conscious existence in the afterlife.

Mark 9:42-48
42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where

"'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'

Matt 8:11-13
11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matt 13:41-43
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Matt 13:49-50
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt 22:13-14
"Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Matt 24:48-51
48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt 25:29-30
29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

hope this helps !!!

 

[marks]

I'm basing my beliefs on the scriptures I quoted, not on Dante as you have supposed. I don't like the idea of eternal punishment, but this is what Jesus said would happen. And punishment is not pleasant even for the children of God, who scourges every son whom He receives (Heb 12:6). And yes, this punishment will involve eternal separation from God in hell where there is nothing good because only God is good.

Peter wrote that the one who has suffered has ceased from sin.

Have you noticed that? Suffering is one of God's heavy hammers to correct us, and stop us from sin.

To the unrepentant sinner . . . eternal suffering is a means to eternally stop sinning.

Much love!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

More OUT OF CONTEXT Scriptures. Some people never learn.

Wadr out of context would be saying terror comes not near dwellings dissolved, instead of terror comes not near everlasting dwellings. Remember ‘everlasting habitations’ maybe the one place we do agree?

Isaiah 54:14 Lexicon: "In righteousness you will be established; You will be far from oppression, for you will not fear; And from terror, for it will not come near you.

5 You will not fear the terror of night, nor the arrow that flies by day, 6 nor the pestilence that stalks (walks)in the darkness, nor the plague that destroys at midday. 7 A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you. 8 You will only observe with your eyes and see the punishment of the wicked. 9 If you say, “The LORD is my refuge,” and you make the Most High your (everlasting)dwelling, 10 no harm will overtake you, no disaster will come near your tent. (Everlasting habitations, mansions, tabernacle)

Which everlasting habitations does no harm overtake, nor disaster or terror overtake? ...the one dissolved?

Luke 16:9 And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Psalm 91:9 Lexicon: For you have made the LORD, my refuge, Even the Most High, your dwelling place.

Of the pestilence

מִ֭דֶּבֶר

(mid·de·ver)

1698: pestilence

from dabar

that stalks (walks)

יַהֲלֹ֑ךְ

(ya·ha·loch

1980: to go, come, walk

a prim. root

in darknes

1 Thessalonians 5:4-7 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. [5] Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. [6] Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. [7] For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.


Isaiah 54:14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.


Out of context maybe but ‘Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, [12] Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? [13] Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness’ ‘2 Peter 3:11-13

 

[BarneyFife]

Are you saying that believers don't die physically, that our bodies don't die?

I would say exactly the opposite of that.

When humans "die," our souls separate from our bodies.

No. They really don't. You shouldn't have to put the word "die" in quotes if the statement were true. When a man dies, he's simply dead.
Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die. (Ezekiel 18:4)

Depending on whether or not we are saved, I believe that our souls either go to heaven or hell.

Souls can't go anywhere a body can't go, because it takes a body to make a soul.
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Genesis 2:7)

Brothers, I tell you this: Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and corruption cannot inherit incorruption.

I'm the first to admit I don't understand everything Paul wrote, but I think he's saying that the body of which we now have stewardship cannot stand in the presence of God. He was probably trying to relate primarily to (former?) Hellenistic Dualists in this passage. Any doctrine that depends largely upon the writings of one of God's penmen is quite possibly erroneous.

 

[marks]

I’m trying to rap my mind around this concept, does He God resurrect sinful flesh, or does He resurrect glorified sinners, or does He only resurrect their soul. Which would by the way suggest the soul had died in order for it to be resurrected?

Here's a thing to consider. They aren't resurrected.

"And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before the throne." They are not resurrected, they are still dead.

Death is not cessation or inactivity, it is separation.

Much love!

 

[Earburner]

We do not need a lengthy justification for any heresy. Fudge has manufactured his own doctrine, and as I already posted, he has CONTRADICTED Scripture. The SDA Church is bitterly opposed to the Roman Catholic Church, but at least the RCC did not pervert the doctrine of Hell, and in fact has presented the true Bible doctrine.

THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

Which means that Edward Fudge is a heretic, as are all Annihilationists.

You have been manipulated and persuaded by the ancient "church fathers" of false doctrine, contrived by the "Religion" of the religious, that man was "given" an eternal soul.
KJV- Genesis 2:7 speaks strongly against that false belief, especially when
"the breath of life" is *oxygenated air.
See Genesis 6:17 and 7:22.

Now, if you can biblically prove that ALL animal life (Hebrew- nephesh), "wherein is the breath of life", have been "given" an eternal soul, I too might be persuaded!
But I strongly doubt it.

*Note: Moses, the author of Genesis, knew
nothing about the gaseous elements of our atmosphere.
So, in the simplicity of his thinking, the "breath of life" is what he called the air that we breathe, and therefore put no "religious spin" on it, but down through years, many have.

 

[Enoch111]

You have been manipulated and persuaded by the ancient "church fathers" of false doctrine, contrived by the "Religion" of the religious, that man was "given" an eternal soul.

Since I have been quoting Scripture this is PURE BALONEY. It is you who has been manipulated by Satan into believing is lies about Hell. After all it was created for him. It is simply shocking to see how so many people calling themselves Christians prefer to be conned, rather than believe the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Earburner]

Since I have been quoting Scripture this is PURE BALONEY. It is you who has been manipulated by Satan into believing is lies about Hell. After all it was created for him. It is simply shocking to see how so many people calling themselves Christians prefer to be conned, rather than believe the Lord Jesus Christ.

Yes, you have been quoting scripture, but leaning towards the "religious" concept of their view of what THEY think their concept of "Hell" is.
You will NEVER get to the truth of understanding what hell is, until you lose the other false preconceived notion of what "soul" means, AND IS.

 

[BarneyFife]

Here's a thing to consider. They aren't resurrected.

"And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before the throne." They are not resurrected, they are still dead.

Death is not cessation or inactivity, it is separation.

Much love!

I'm not sure it's good hermeneutics to use a book filled with symbols and reality, and periods of time, mixed and jumbled together to prove chronology.

 

[marks]

I'm not sure it's good hermeneutics to use a book filled with symbols and reality, and periods of time, mixed and jumbled together to prove chronology.

Chronology, no, what death is.

The dead stand before God to be judged.

Much love!