Edward Fudge: Hero Or Heretic?

[Earburner]

return to Me and I will return to you?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

"The spirit" , meaning "the breath of life", meaning the oxygenated air that we and all animals breathe, whose breath is in their nostrils.
Genesis 7:21-22.
Lets not continue the "religious spin" any longer! We all do know today, what Moses (author of Genesis) could not know in His time.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

"Destroy (desecrate/desolate) this temple (of myself), and in three days I will raise it up.

What has always stood out is all the ‘false witness’ in Mark 14:55-59 And the chief priests and all the council sought for witness against Jesus to put him to death; and found none. [56] For many bare false witness against him, but their witness agreed not together. [57] And there arose certain, and bare false witness against him, saying, [58] We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands. [59] But neither so did their witness agree together.

 

[Earburner]

1. you want me to change the Scriptures i Quoted?

2. and no offense but i wouldnt take too seriously any self-testifying by...well, anyone i guess, me included. Never heard the grave referred to as hell before, but Samuel did say who is it that disturbs my rest right

3. i agree the spirit goes back to Yah, Who gave it, but you seek to save your soul, dont you? Your invoking of Spirit is a clever twist, but you can only kid yourself in the end, dont you think? Notice how you had to corrupt Scripture to do that? Everyone's spirit goes back to Yah, doesnt it?

4. do you think Yah is a respecter of the term "Christian" or something, Eb?

1. Where? What scriptures did you quote?
2. Hell/Sheol/Hades- the place of the dead, the pit.
3. "The spirit" is "the breath of life", aka oxygenated air!
4. " Yah" is a respecter of His Son, in Whom and by Whom, through faith in Him, we have eternal Life.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

"The spirit" , meaning "the breath of life", meaning the oxygenated air that we and all animals breathe, whose breath is in their nostrils.
Genesis 7:21-22.
Lets not continue the "religious spin" any longer! We all do know today, what Moses (author of Genesis) could not know in His time.

"The spirit" , meaning "the breath of life", meaning the oxygenated air that we and all animals breathe, whose breath is in their nostrils.
Genesis 7:21-22.
Lets not continue the "religious spin" any longer! We all do know today, what Moses (author of Genesis) could not know in His time.

Not sure what you mean by ‘what Moses (author of Genesis) could not know in his time.’ Did Abraham fully know what he was foretelling by placing Issac on the altar and a ram caught in the thicket appeared? Who is the author of the beginning Moses or God? Moses knew enough to ‘By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; [25] Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; [26] Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.’
Hebrews 11:24-26

 

[CharismaticLady]

You are not hearing what I said. I never said that the LH was Jesus.
I said that Jesus used the act of
"the abomination that maketh desolate", as type and antitype, thus pointing to Himself, meaning that the temple of His mortal body was going to be desecrated, just as Antiochus Epiphanes desecrated the Jewish temple.

"desecrated"- verb: to treat disrespectfully,
irreverently, or outrageously.
(Merriam-Webster Dictionary)

I do appreciate how your mind works. I'm not a boring traditional thinker either. But I'll have to disagree on this one. It just seems like a stretch. The two revolts were for the same length of time, and involved desecrating an actual temple, the latter being after Jesus.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

"The spirit" , meaning "the breath of life", meaning the oxygenated air that we and all animals breathe, whose breath is in their nostrils.

Was asking, then we do not return to God until we go into a casket and the body returns to the dust?
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[Giuliano]

"The spirit" , meaning "the breath of life", meaning the oxygenated air that we and all animals breathe, whose breath is in their nostrils.
Genesis 7:21-22.
Lets not continue the "religious spin" any longer! We all do know today, what Moses (author of Genesis) could not know in His time.

Animals breath too. Animals have soul too. The special breath given to man by God made Adam a "living soul." Animals are alive in their way, but man is supposed to be alive in another way. Not all humans have that special breath.

John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

People can be walking around, breathing as the animals do, but still be dead spiritually.

Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

 

[Earburner]

Mark 14[58] We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands

Correct, Jesus did not say that He was going to destroy this [the] temple that is made with hands".
He said: "*destroy this temple...and in three days **I will raise it up"

Notes:
*implying "you will"
**Implying his body

 

[Earburner]

Was asking, then we do not return to God until we go into a casket and the body returns to the dust?
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

In the time when Eccl. was written, no man had the permanent indwelling of God's Holy Spirit! Therefore, no man ever had a spirit of any kind, that it should go back to God! Did they have "the breath of life" ? Yes, even then, they also as we, do breathe oxygenated air.
Did that "breath of life" go back into the atmosphere, where God is also? Yes! It did!

Apart from the God gifted Holy Spirit to a man, through faith in Jesus, no unsaved man has a literal spirit of God living within him.
Do they have "the breath of life", oxygenated air? YES! And that's all it is!

Let's all learn to leave the "religious spin" outside the door!

 

[justbyfaith]

Gen 2:7, And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath (ruach) of life; and man became a living soul.

 

[Brakelite]

It's all in what you understand death to be.

"I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne"

That was a vision of the future from John's perspective. If I was given the same vision now,I would put it in the same words. They're dead now, but they've been raised for that purpose for which they stand then before Gods throne.

 

[Brakelite]

In dealing with the Jews, the subject of Daniel, Antiochus Epiphanes IV was the greatest threat.

It wasn't Greece nor any part of Greece that tore the city apart and destroyed the temple, killing most of the population and dispersing the remainder across the planet. Jesus said the threat, well after Antiochus, the abomination of desolation, was still to come.

 

[Waiting on him]

What has always stood out is all the ‘false witness’ in Mark 14:55-59 And the chief priests and all the council sought for witness against Jesus to put him to death; and found none. [56] For many bare false witness against him, but their witness agreed not together. [57] And there arose certain, and bare false witness against him, saying, [58] We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands. [59] But neither so did their witness agree together.

Nothin has changed

 

[VictoryinJesus]

In the time when Eccl. was written, no man had the permanent indwelling of God's Holy Spirit! Therefore, no man ever had a spirit of any kind, that it should go back to God!

only questions. Get the ‘no permanent in indwelling of God’s Holy Spirit’ but not the no man had a spirit of any kind, that it should go back to God. 1) is to be converted not to turn again, return again to God? ‘hear My voice and turn’; Born again? Born anew? Luke 22:31-32 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: [32] But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, (turn again, return) strengthen thy brethren. Matthew 18:3

2) no man had a spirit of any kind, that it should go back to God.
Question whether that is a true assertion: Christ turned and rebuked them saying you know what spirit you are of. Also,
2 Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Romans 8:15-16 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. [16] The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

1 Corinthians 2:11-12 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. [12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

so to say ‘no man had a spirit of any kind, that it should go back to God.’ Unless I’ve misunderstood His word says before conversion (to turn again, return to God being born anew having received the Spirit of God bearing witness with our spirit that we are children) man does have a spirit apart from God: having received ‘the spirit of bondage’ ‘the spirit of fear’ ‘the spirit of the world’ being in torment as legion hiding out in the caves, cutting himself with stones, fettered and in shackles which no man could tame him ...but perfect love cast out torment. The spirit of fear, the spirit of bondage...

 

[Earburner]

2Th 2:3, Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4, Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

I believe that the singular personal pronouns say it all.

So then, why do you read 1 Cor. 2:14 in the plural?
[14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
> Why is it that you read "the natural man" to be in the plural, and not read "*that man of sin" in the plural also?
You don't know!
But the reason is clear. In KJV
2 Thessalonians 2:3, 8, from the Textus Receptus Greek text, the KJV translators inserted the word "that", and did not use the textual word "the".
In so doing, it causes one to read those verses in the singular, and not the plural, as it should be.

Note:
* the word "that" in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is also an insertion by the KJV translators. In the Textus Receptus Greek text, it reads: "the" man of sin.

 

[bbyrd009]

return to Me and I will return to you?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

ah well i think you are conflating two diff concepts there? The first would occur in life, the second after death, imo anyway

 

[VictoryinJesus]

ah well i think you are conflating two diff concepts there? The first would occur in life, the second after death, imo anyway

fair enough and you are probably right. Just could not understand the God’s Spirit bears witness with our spirit we are children ....how that is if not already the ‘return to Me and I will return to you’. Maybe I’m conflating it at ‘though our outward man perishes, the inward is renewed day to day’. That is the verse I would say causing questions concerning what turns to dust and what returns to God.

 

[bbyrd009]

Where? What scriptures did you quote?

srsly? In italics

Hell/Sheol/Hades- the place of the dead, the pit.

all go to the same place. Your bargain with the grave will be annulled. You and your sons will be here with me

"The spirit" is "the breath of life", aka oxygenated air!

even to an anaerobic bacteria? Dont think so wadr

Yah" is a respecter of His Son, in Whom and by Whom, through faith in Him, we have eternal Life.

ha but who is this "we" you speak of, and have included yourself in?

and fwiw there is no "faith in Jesus Christ" such as you speak of anyway, or i mean show me one, BIBLE VERSES ABOUT FAITH IN JESUS (which has ezackly zero vv about "faith in Jesus!")
as Jesus Himself even tells us, our faith is supposed to be in Yah, and no offense but you are deceived i guess, i mean unless you can Quote vv about "faith in Jesus," i dunno. Faith of Jesus, sure

Ephesians 3:12 Lexicon: in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him.
looks like your best shot, but note the "in Him" is an addition, ignoring for a moment the lack of Witness

 

[bbyrd009]

fair enough and you are probably right. Just could not understand the God’s Spirit bears witness with our spirit we are children ....how that is if not already the ‘return to Me and I will return to you’.

assuming one has returned, sure, but seems to me that most Xtians seek a literal Return, dont they? Iow they are absolutely not interested in returning to Yah while alive, they want Jesus to come to them, literally, right

Maybe I’m conflating it at ‘though our outward man perishes, the inward is renewed day to day’. That is the verse I would say causing questions concerning what turns to dust and what returns to God.

ok well i dont know ok, but again it seems you are conflating a v that is supposed to happen while we are alive with one that happens after we have died? Tho our bodies are aging (and our eternities are fixed, at threescore and ten), we all benefit from a good night's sleep right? "Things will look better in the morning?" So yes, our spirits are renewed day to day imo. And what returns to dust v what returns to Yah is similar i guess, ya! Only now we are talking "after death" right

i guess we could discuss the lillies of the field maybe, but we have plenty of Scripture for ourselves being dust? Just ppl who are ego-bound are not interested i guess.

 

[Earburner]

only questions. Get the ‘no permanent in indwelling of God’s Holy Spirit’ but not the no man had a spirit of any kind, that it should go back to God. 1) is to be converted not to turn again, return again to God? ‘hear My voice and turn’; Born again? Born anew? Luke 22:31-32 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: [32] But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, (turn again, return) strengthen thy brethren. Matthew 18:3

2) no man had a spirit of any kind, that it should go back to God.
Question whether that is a true assertion: Christ turned and rebuked them saying you know what spirit you are of. Also,
2 Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Romans 8:15-16 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. [16] The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

1 Corinthians 2:11-12 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. [12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

so to say ‘no man had a spirit of any kind, that it should go back to God.’ Unless I’ve misunderstood His word says before conversion (to turn again, return to God being born anew having received the Spirit of God bearing witness with our spirit that we are children) man does have a spirit apart from God: having received ‘the spirit of bondage’ ‘the spirit of fear’ ‘the spirit of the world’ being in torment as legion hiding out in the caves, cutting himself with stones, fettered and in shackles which no man could tame him ...but perfect love cast out torment. The spirit of fear, the spirit of bondage...

You have provided a strong biblical argument against what I have said about the word "spirit", and also for the word "soul".
Therefore, for every unsaved person, who has not received the Eternal Holy Spirit of God, should we say that they have both a
"spirit" and a "soul"?
The word "soul" is used 58 times in the NT
And the word "spirit" is used at least equal to it, from what I can gather.

So, my question is, which is which, if the the two words are, or are not meaning the same thing?
Or is it simply this, due to the lack of a better understanding of Physics, Chemistry, Biology etc., about the wonder of God's Creation, man was severely lacking (Moses included) about the natural realms of the world we live in, and the intricate, microscopic details of our very own being.