Edward Fudge: Hero Or Heretic?

[john t]

YeshuaFan1 said: ↑
The scriptures always make the distinction between the lost living forever under judgement, while the saved have eternal life now with Christ!

The lost, the unsaved living forever??

By whose ability/power do you ascribe that to? Their own, or God's?

The judgment of Genesis 3:22 is very final, as to anyone having eternal existence, of any kind, apart from believing in Christ as the Messiah/Savior.
What or Who exactly did you think the Tree of Life is?

Demons get tormented and they are alive
Matthew 8:29
Suddenly they shouted, “What do You have to do with us, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?”

Mark 5:7
And he cried out with a loud voice, “What do You have to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg You before God, don’t torment me!”

Humans on earth can get tormented by demons
2 Corinthians 12:7
especially because of the extraordinary revelations. Therefore, so that I would not exalt myself, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to torment me so I would not exalt myself.

Humans in Hades get tormented, therefore they are alive
Luke 16:23
And being in torment in Hades, he looked up and saw Abraham a long way off, with Lazarus at his side.

Luke 16:28
because I have five brothers—to warn them, so they won’t also come to this place of torment.

Humans on Earth will get tormented by demons before Christ returns
Revelation 9:5
They were not permitted to kill them but were to torment them for five months; their torment is like the torment caused by a scorpion when it strikes a man.

The torture of humans in Hades never stops, and they are forever alive
Revelation 14:9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Revelation 18:7
As much as she glorified herself and lived luxuriously,give her that much torment and grief,for she says in her heart,“I sit as a queen;I am not a widow,and I will never see grief.”

Revelation 18:10
They will stand far off in fear of her torment, saying:Woe, woe, the great city,Babylon, the mighty city!For in a single hour your judgment has come

All Scripture from HCSB

THEREFORE:
the torture of humans and demons in Hades never ceases according to the Bible, and that is the ultimate authority

 

[bbyrd009]

Biblical!!

Christ is Spirit tho, Word right, so blood--as has recently been stated--has a diff meaning to Yah prolly yeh? The lesson of Esau is clear.

plead the blood as long as you like, but recognize that it is you that needs that, not Yah
Yah is Love
Yah is Merciful
and Yah is not this Molech He is made out to be
that is us, that needs blood

Biblical!!

its part of the story though, sure

A very subtil comment

doctrines are surely built on less

ha but look i am pushing you off a cliff ok lol
nevermind
enjoy your blood

 

[bbyrd009]

a living sacrifice is bloodless

 

[Earburner]

Is it justice to have a Hitler or a Stalin getting same ending as a Grandma who refused Jesus as her Lord

Yes!!
You don't understand the judgment for Life in John 3:18, for we who are *"condemned (judged) ALREADY".

*In comparison, see KJV Genesis 3:22 of the first judgment, which is eternal death.

 

[Enoch111]

a living sacrifice is bloodless

How can a living sacrifice be bloodless, when "the life of the flesh is in the blood"? Without blood flowing through your circulatory system, you would be dead as a doornail.

bbyrd009, you are still THOROUGHLY CONFUSED about spiritual matters, the reason being that you try to deliberately distort the truth.

 

[BarneyFife]

Demons get tormented and they are alive

Who said they couldn't be tormented while they are alive?

Humans on earth can get tormented by demons

Who said they couldn't?

Humans in Hades get tormented, therefore they are alive

Yeah, if you base that on figurative language contained in a parable designed to teach an object lesson.

Humans on Earth will get tormented by demons before Christ returns

Which proves what?

The torture of humans in Hades never stops

Just like Sodom and Gomorrah is still burning, right? (Jude 1:7)

THEREFORE:
the torture of humans and demons in Hades never ceases according to the Bible, and that is the ultimate authority

No, according to your personal interpretation of the Bible. There are other options.

 

[BarneyFife]

In his book The Kingdom of the Cults, Walter Martin included the Seventh Day Adventist denomination. However the book puts that in an appendix, since the SDA church is a mixture of truth and error.

And out come the knives.

 

[BarneyFife]

IMO the SDA church is a cult.

Talk about your ad hominem. All I had to do is reveal my denominational identity and you just couldn't resist, could you? Typical CARM venom.

 

[BarneyFife]

Do you do the same sort of insulting with other third graders?

This is technically not ad-hominem, I guess.

 

[amadeus]

So death means living on somehow? That's now what the word death means.

People have changed definitions or translations to fit doctrines or beliefs instead of listening to God to receive the right understandings and beliefs...or so it seems!

 

[BarneyFife]

Barney, It is apparent that you have not thoroughly digested the words of the KJV in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.
Please pay attention to the words "when" , written two times in those verses.
We are expecting the visible and audible return of Christ, in all His Glory, in flaming fire.

Sorry, you've mistaken me for someone who doesn't believe in the visible and audible return of Christ.

 

[BarneyFife]

In his book The Kingdom of the Cults, Walter Martin included the Seventh Day Adventist denomination. However the book puts that in an appendix, since the SDA church is a mixture of truth and error.

Kingdom of the Cults: appendix

On p. 551 from the section: Adventist Theology and Classical Orthodoxy, Martin writes,

It is unnecessary to document at great length the fact that Seventh-day Adventists adheres tenaciously to the foundational doctrines of Christian theology as these have been held by the Christian church down through the centuries. Dr. Anthony Hoekema, who believes that Seventh-day Adventism is a non-Christian cult, makes this interesting admission, and since Dr. Hoekema is no friend of Adventism, his testimony on this point could hardly be called prejudiced:

“I am of the conviction that Seventh-day Adventism is a cult and not an evangelical denomination. . . . It is recognised with gratitude that there are certain soundly scriptural emphases in the teaching of Seventh-day-Adventism. We are thankful for the Adventists’ affirmation of the infallibility of the Bible, of the Trinity and of the full deity of Jesus Christ. We gratefully acknowledge their teachings on creation and providence, on the incarnation and resurrection of Christ, on the absolute necessity for regeneration, on sanctification by the Holy Spirit, and on Christ’s literal return.”

Says Martin,
“It is puzzling to me, as a student of non-Christian cult systems, how any group can hold the above doctrines in their proper biblical context, which Dr. Hoekema admits the Adventists do, and still be a non-Christian cult. However we shall deal with this aspect of the critics of Adventism at the end of the chapter; therefore, suffice it to say that the Adventists do have a clean bill of health where the major doctrines of Christian theology are concerned.”

 

[Earburner]

Sorry, you've mistaken me for someone who doesn't believe in the visible and audible return of Christ.

Oh, sorry if I did.

 

[Giuliano]

How can a living sacrifice be bloodless, when "the life of the flesh is in the blood"? Without blood flowing through your circulatory system, you would be dead as a doornail.

bbyrd009, you are still THOROUGHLY CONFUSED about spiritual matters, the reason being that you try to deliberately distort the truth.

Compare wine with blood. A developing fetus is connected to the mother via a cord. It receives life-giving oxygen via the mother's blood. Waste products are expelled via the mother's blood. The two are one in a certain way.

If Jesus is the Vine, maybe we are the grapes, connected to him. We are part of his body. No?

 

[Giuliano]

People have changed definitions or translations to fit doctrines or beliefs instead of listening to God to receive the right understandings and beliefs...or so it seems!

It seems strange to take the words in the Bible so casually as if the authors chose their words poorly. Why bother reading it if you think that way?

 

[Giuliano]

Do you know that scripture?
Please share.

Yes, and I find it interesting in another way since Judas partook unworthily.

Matthew 26:25 Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

 

[Giuliano]

In his book The Kingdom of the Cults, Walter Martin included the Seventh Day Adventist denomination. However the book puts that in an appendix, since the SDA church is a mixture of truth and error.

Wow, if Walter Martin said it, it must be true, right?

 

[amadeus]

It seems strange to take the words in the Bible so casually as if the authors chose their words poorly. Why bother reading it if you think that way?

Well we certainly have the organized or unorganized churches today in the thousands which according to them are rooted in the Bible yet they disagree sharply on things which may be important. How can that be?

Maybe it is easier to see these differences on a forum like this where members who don't or won't visit each other's assemblies are expressing their views. Hmmm? This could be perhaps an opportunity to learn truth... if a person's mind and heart are not closed and they really are striving to allow the Holy Spirit to lead them?

 

[Giuliano]

Christ is Spirit tho, Word right, so blood--as has recently been stated--has a diff meaning to Yah prolly yeh?

I once looked to see if the expression blood of Jesus existed in the Bible. It occurs once -- at least that's all I could find. The rest of the time it's either blood of Christ or the blood of Jesus the Christ.

 

[BarneyFife]

Oh, sorry if I did.

No problem, Friend.