Edward Fudge: Hero Or Heretic?

[bbyrd009]

Does hell burn for eternity or just until the wicked suffer corresponding to the exact amount of evil caused by their words, thoughts, and deeds?

so, in that context the correct answer is likely "neither one," since "after literal death" has been assumed, right? But when we lose our (norse-angle) concept of hell, and get back to Gehenna which is right here on earth, you reap what you sow and part two of your Q becomes possible imo

 

[john t]

john t said: ↑
The OP mentions the (mostly SDA) doctrine who believe that the dead heathens shall cease to exist when Christ returns. This doctrine negated the doctrine of hell.

If you are going to accuse Adventists of getting something wrong, best to make sure what it is they actually do teach before doing so.

How about this from Adventist.org, an OFFICIAL SDA site?

The punishment of the unrepentant is called the second death: After the final judgment the unrepentant receive their punishment. This punishment is called the second death. “Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire” (Rev. 20:14, 15; see also 21:8). The Bible also uses words such as “perishing” and “destruction” in speaking of the ultimate fate of the unrepentant (e.g., 
2 Peter 3:7, 9; John 3:16; Heb. 10:28; Mal. 4:1). These descriptions confirm that the second death refers to annihilation (or extinction) of the unrepentant, rather than a continual and eternal conscious torment.​

From Life to Death: What Really Happens when you Die?

Or this?

THE UNCONSCIOUS NOTHINGNESS OF DEATH SEPARATES US FROM THE GOD OF LIFE, YET JESUS’ DEFEAT OF DEATH MEANS THE SAVED CAN LOOK FORWARD TO RESURRECTION AND LIVING FOREVER.
The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant eternal life to His redeemed. Until that day death is an unconscious state for all people. When Christ, who is our life, appears, the resurrected righteous and the living righteous will be glorified and caught up to meet their Lord. The second resurrection, the resurrection of the unrighteous, will take place a thousand years later.​

The State of the Dead: From Death to Life

I would suggest that consumed covers things fairly well.

I would suggest that you stick to the Bible, rather than Ellen to get your doctrine. There is ZERO in Scripture in context to support "consumed"

But the question still remains that neither you nor anyone else has attempted to answer.

NONE of us will answer it (to your satisfaction) because you are derailing the flow of the dialog in order to insert, and debate SDA beliefs

In the dark ages the state powers working on behalf of the church learned to torture people in unimaginably disgusting and evil ways in order to extract some sorry confession from them. They learned to induce a state of excruciating pain but just short of taking their life. They could keep people alive for days yet in constant mental and physical agony. This they learned from Rome, only enhanced and took it to new levels. No-one in their right mind today would suggest this wickedness was a just, merciful, loving thing to do. We all, without exception, utterly condemn such practices and they are condemned even by secular authorities in most countries. Those that do practice such barbaric practices today are considered the bottom dwellers of society, and rightly so, and worthy of nothing but hate and loathing.

Inserting the days of the Inquisition is also a derail. This began in the 12th Century 1100s and lasted for several centuries. Therefore its relevance to the OP cannot be established.

<ancient drama snipped for relevance>
And Christians have the utter shameless gall to call this justice.

Yes, you can find some obscure scriptures that seem to suggest your theory. But those same scriptures can be used to suggest the opposite also. What you have to do to support your theory against that opposite is to do so against all logic and reason and against everything the rest of the scriptures tell you concerning the nature of the God you claim to know. And not one person on this entire forum can answer that challenge.
No-one can justify eternal torment in the face of all we know of the character of God. I know why, because it can't be done.

You are the one making the assertion that annihilation is taught in Scriptures. You have the burden of proof on that proposition

 

[BarneyFife]

so, in that context the correct answer is likely "neither one," since "after literal death" has been assumed, right? But when we lose our (norse-angle) concept of hell, and get back to Gehenna which is right here on earth, you reap what you sow and part two of your Q becomes possible imo

Have I told you lately that you are wise beyond your years, whatever your age?

 

[BarneyFife]

The OP mentions the (mostly SDA) doctrine who believe that the dead heathens shall cease to exist when Christ returns. This doctrine negated the doctrine of hell.

Seventh-day Adventists don't believe the wicked of all ages will be destroyed at Christ's 2nd coming. And they do believe in hell, just not the monstrous one which is so widely and erroneously taught. You will do well to Google that.

 

[Earburner]

Yes, and the "shape" of the soul follows the shape of the blood system since the soul attaches itself to the blood.

No, blood is the soul/life of the flesh.

 

[BarneyFife]

What is to become of those who are not caught up to heaven with the Lord?
"Wait on the Lord, and keep His way, and He shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it." Ps. 37:34."The Lord hath a controversy with the nations; He will plead with all flesh; He will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the Lord." Jer. 25:31 (2 Thess. 1:7, 8).

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." Rev. 20:5.

"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." Rev. 20:9.

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." ...You shall trample the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I do this,’ says the Lord of hosts” (Malachi 4:1, Malachi 4:3).

“Behold, they shall be as stubble, the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame; it shall not be a coal to be warmed by, nor a fire to sit before!” (Isaiah 47:14).

"And the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also; and the works that are therein shall be burned up." 2 Peter 3:10.

"For evil doers shall be cut off; but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth." Ps. 37:9.

How many lost souls are being punished in hell today?
“The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust
under punishment for the day of judgment” (2 Peter 2:9).

“The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23).

“Sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death” (James 1:15).

“The cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death” (Revelation 21:8).

“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work” (Revelation 22:12).

“He will reward each according to his works” (Matthew 16:27).

“That servant who knew his master’s will, and did not ... do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few” (Luke 12:47, 48).

“Rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matthew 10:28).
“The soul who sins shall die” (Ezekiel 18:20).

“The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire” (Revelation 20:10).
“I turned you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all who saw you. … You … shall be no more forever” (Ezekiel 28:18, 19).

“For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more. … The enemies of the Lord … shall vanish. Into smoke they shall vanish away” (Psalm 37:10, 20).

“God … gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).

 

[VictoryinJesus]

by their belief in it

belief has the power to give life?

Habakkuk 2:18-19
18 “Of what value is an idol carved by a craftsman?
Or an image that teaches lies?
For the one who makes it trusts in his own creation;
he makes (dumb)idols that cannot speak. (mute)
19 Woe to him who says to wood, ‘Come to life!’
Or to lifeless stone, ‘Wake up!’
Can it give guidance?
It is covered with gold and silver;
there is no breath in it.”

Acts 8:32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

Acts 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

Mark 7:37 And were beyond measure astonished, saying, He hath done all things well: he maketh both the deaf to hear, and the dumb to speak.

Ezekiel 24:27 In that day shall thy mouth be opened to him which is escaped, and thou shalt speak, and be no more dumb: and thou shalt be a sign unto them; and they shall know that I am the Lord.

2 Peter 2:16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

 

[Earburner]

By the combination of
oxygenated air (the breath of life),
and the blood (soul),
our mortal flesh lives.
Only God understands how "blood crieth from the ground". Genesis 4:10.

How does oxygen get into the bloodstream? - British Lung Foundation

 

[farouk]

belief has the power to give life?

Habakkuk 2:18-19
18 “Of what value is an idol carved by a craftsman?
Or an image that teaches lies?
For the one who makes it trusts in his own creation;
he makes (dumb)idols that cannot speak. (mute)
19 Woe to him who says to wood, ‘Come to life!’
Or to lifeless stone, ‘Wake up!’
Can it give guidance?
It is covered with gold and silver;
there is no breath in it.”

Acts 8:32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

Acts 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

Mark 7:37 And were beyond measure astonished, saying, He hath done all things well: he maketh both the deaf to hear, and the dumb to speak.

Ezekiel 24:27 In that day shall thy mouth be opened to him which is escaped, and thou shalt speak, and be no more dumb: and thou shalt be a sign unto them; and they shall know that I am the Lord.

2 Peter 2:16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

@VictoryinJesus In contrast, the believer needs to learn in simplicity to say with Samuel:

"And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth." (1 Samuel 3.10)

Master, speak! Thy servant heareth,
Waiting for Thy gracious word,
Longing for Thy voice that cheereth
Master, let it now be heard.
I am list’ning, Lord, for Thee;
What hast Thou to say to me?
2
Often through my heart is pealing
Many another voice than Thine,
Many an unwilled echo stealing
From the walls of this Thy shrine.
Let Thy longed-for accents fall;
Master, speak! and silence all.
3
Master, speak! though least and lowest,
Let me not unheard depart;
Master, speak! for oh, Thou knowest
All the yearning of my heart.
Knowest all its truest need;
Speak! and make me blest indeed.
4
Master, speak! and make me ready,
When Thy voice is truly heard,
With obedience glad and steady,
Still to follow every word
I am listening, Lord, for Thee:
Master, speak, oh, speak to me!
5
Speak to me by name, O Master,
Let me know it is to me;
Speak, that I may follow faster,
With a step more firm and free,
Where the Shepherd leads the flock
In the shadow of the Rock!

(F.R. Havergal)

 

[MattMooradian]

I, for one, am certain that no one on this site or any other Christian knows what the afterlife holds for any of us, except in very general terms. Beware what we teach others, there are consequences to teaching things that are false. Those are sins that you will never be able to confess and ask forgiveness for - because you do not know that your teachings are in error. Hypothesize or theorize about what might be, but do not speak with authority about things which ye know not.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

@VictoryinJesus In contrast, the believer needs to learn in simplicity to say with Samuel:

"And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth." (1 Samuel 3.10)

Master, speak! Thy servant heareth,
Waiting for Thy gracious word,
Longing for Thy voice that cheereth
Master, let it now be heard.
I am list’ning, Lord, for Thee;
What hast Thou to say to me?
2
Often through my heart is pealing
Many another voice than Thine,
Many an unwilled echo stealing
From the walls of this Thy shrine.
Let Thy longed-for accents fall;
Master, speak! and silence all.
3
Master, speak! though least and lowest,
Let me not unheard depart;
Master, speak! for oh, Thou knowest
All the yearning of my heart.
Knowest all its truest need;
Speak! and make me blest indeed.
4
Master, speak! and make me ready,
When Thy voice is truly heard,
With obedience glad and steady,
Still to follow every word
I am listening, Lord, for Thee:
Master, speak, oh, speak to me!
5
Speak to me by name, O Master,
Let me know it is to me;
Speak, that I may follow faster,
With a step more firm and free,
Where the Shepherd leads the flock
In the shadow of the Rock!

(F.R. Havergal)

1 Corinthians 14:7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

Without life giving sound...does that mean there is also ‘with life giving sound’
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

 

[farouk]

1 Corinthians 14:7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

Without life giving sound...does that mean there is also ‘with life giving sound’
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

@VictoryinJesus In the context of 1 Corinthians 14, Paul is talking about avoiding tongues which do not edify. Like, if someone blasts notes from an instrument carelessly, how does it produce a meaningful tune?

 

[john t]

<SNIP> You will do well to Google that.

You, sir will do well to READ THE POST and see THE SOURCES from which I copied: ALL WERE OFFICIAL SDA SITES

Doing that will prevent foolish, and insipid posts. Here they are AGAIN

The punishment of the unrepentant is called the second death: After the final judgment the unrepentant receive their punishment. This punishment is called the second death. “Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire” (Rev. 20:14, 15; see also 21:8). The Bible also uses words such as “perishing” and “destruction” in speaking of the ultimate fate of the unrepentant These descriptions confirm that the second death refers to annihilation (or extinction) of the unrepentant, rather than a continual and eternal conscious torment.​

From Life to Death: What Really Happens when you Die?

Or this?

THE UNCONSCIOUS NOTHINGNESS OF DEATH SEPARATES US FROM THE GOD OF LIFE, YET JESUS’ DEFEAT OF DEATH MEANS THE SAVED CAN LOOK FORWARD TO RESURRECTION AND LIVING FOREVER.
The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant eternal life to His redeemed. Until that day death is an unconscious state for all people. When Christ, who is our life, appears, the resurrected righteous and the living righteous will be glorified and caught up to meet their Lord. The second resurrection, the resurrection of the unrighteous, will take place a thousand years later.​

The State of the Dead: From Death to Life

Please cease your foolishness. If you continue as you have here, I have no difficulty in posting official contradictions of your untrue statements that "We SDAs do not believe XYZ nor do we teach that XYZ"

This post if free from ad hominems

 

[BarneyFife]

This post if free from ad hominems

But not smug condescension.

Copy-and-paste all you like. In my 30 years as an Adventist, I have never been taught that the wicked are permanently destroyed at Christ's 2nd coming, nor that hellfire is an unbiblical doctrine. And neither has any other Adventist.

 

[BarneyFife]

Doing that will prevent foolish, and insipid posts.

How can you not see that this is insulting?

 

[BarneyFife]

@john t

Especially since you're wrong.

 

[ChristisGod]

But not smug condescension.

Copy-and-paste all you like. In my 30 years as an Adventist, I have never been taught that the wicked are permanently destroyed at Christ's 2nd coming, nor that hellfire is an unbiblical doctrine. And neither has any other Adventist.

is adventist.org the official website for the SDA ?

 

[BarneyFife]

In your imagination (and that is a fact; NOT being snarky).

If you have to say "not being snarky"...

You could stand to dim your caps, btw.

 

[BarneyFife]

is adventist.org the official website for the SDA ?

Yes, it is. Do you think the quotes from adventist.org refute what I said?

 

[ChristisGod]

Yes, it is. Do you think the quotes from adventist.org refute what I said?

I'll read the website and your comments and get back.