entire sanctification*

[Paul Christensen]

Not according to the kjv (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv)).

This is one of the reasons I believe that modern translations are watered down and not to be trusted.

Yep. That's what the verse says alright! But does it say "at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ" or "before the coming"? So when are we blameless? When we were born again and covered with the righteousness of Christ, or when we achieve some type of sinless perfection. I am not trying to be argumentative; just expressing my enquiring mind.

 

[farouk]

Yep. That's what the verse says alright! But does it say "at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ" or "before the coming"? So when are we blameless? When we were born again and covered with the righteousness of Christ, or when we achieve some type of sinless perfection. I am not trying to be argumentative; just expressing my enquiring mind.

@Paul Christensen There are the two aspects; the positional sanctification in Christ, and the day by day living of sanctified lives.

 

[Paul Christensen]

@Paul Christensen There are the two aspects; the positional sanctification in Christ, and the day by day living of sanctified lives.

I can live with that!

 

[farouk]

I can live with that!

@Paul Christensen Both aspects are there!

 

[justbyfaith]

Yep. That's what the verse says alright! But does it say "at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ" or "before the coming"? So when are we blameless? When we were born again and covered with the righteousness of Christ, or when we achieve some type of sinless perfection. I am not trying to be argumentative; just expressing my enquiring mind.

We are preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ...so we are made blameless at some point between our justification and the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And this blamelessness is not impractical (1 John 3:7, Romans 5:19, Matthew 5:6).

 

[Paul Christensen]

We are preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ...so we are made blameless at some point between our justification and the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Thessalonians reference says "at" while you are quoting it as "unto". There is a major difference between the meaning of the word "at" and the word "unto". The word "at" points to a particular point in time, while the word "unto" points to something leading to a point in time.

What you seem to have done is to change the Scripture from "preserved blameless at the particular time of the coming of the Lord", to "preserved blameless leading to the time of the coming of the Lord". Therefore the two phrases have totally different meanings through the change of the one word.

This is how Scripture can be misquoted to mean something that the writer never actually said, don't you think? Adapting the Scripture to suit our own particular theological belief... (prod, prod! )

 

[justbyfaith]

The Thessalonians reference says "at" while you are quoting it as "unto". There is a major difference between the meaning of the word "at" and the word "unto". The word "at" points to a particular point in time, while the word "unto" points to something leading to a point in time.

What you seem to have done is to change the Scripture from "preserved blameless at the particular time of the coming of the Lord", to "preserved blameless leading to the time of the coming of the Lord". Therefore the two phrases have totally different meanings through the change of the one word.

This is how Scripture can be misquoted to mean something that the writer never actually said, don't you think? Adapting the Scripture to suit our own particular theological belief... (prod, prod! )

I did not change the scriptures here but rather I took it at face value as I read it in the kjv.

1Th 5:23, And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24, Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

 

[Paul Christensen]

I did not change the scriptures here but rather I took it at face value as I read it in the kjv.

1Th 5:23, And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24, Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

All the translations after the KJV read "at", and I went to the Greek NT, and found the Greek word "en" is translated "at", and the word "unto" is "pros" in the Greek.

 

[ChristisGod]

The Thessalonians reference says "at" while you are quoting it as "unto". There is a major difference between the meaning of the word "at" and the word "unto". The word "at" points to a particular point in time, while the word "unto" points to something leading to a point in time.

What you seem to have done is to change the Scripture from "preserved blameless at the particular time of the coming of the Lord", to "preserved blameless leading to the time of the coming of the Lord". Therefore the two phrases have totally different meanings through the change of the one word.

This is how Scripture can be misquoted to mean something that the writer never actually said, don't you think? Adapting the Scripture to suit our own particular theological belief... (prod, prod! )

ditto good job !

 

[justbyfaith]

All the translations after the KJV read "at", and I went to the Greek NT, and found the Greek word "en" is translated "at", and the word "unto" is "pros" in the Greek.

What does the word "preserve" mean to you?

Does it have a continual aspect to it or does it have as its meaning something that happens at one time?

"en" can be translated as "unto"...otherwise the translators of the kjv wouldn't have made that choice in the translation process.

 

[Paul Christensen]

What does the word "preserve" mean to you?

Does it have a continual aspect to it or does it have as its meaning something that happens at one time?

"en" can be translated as "unto"...otherwise the translators of the kjv wouldn't have made that choice in the translation process/

Sanctification is a matter of "already" and "not yet" at the same time.

 

[justbyfaith]

Sanctification is a matter of "already" and "not yet" at the same time.

It can be a matter of not being "not yet"...it is obtainable in this life.

 

[Paul Christensen]

It can be a matter of not being "not yet"...it is obtainable in this life.

Let me know when you attain sinless perfection in your life, and then tell me your secret. The rule is that you need to love the Lord with all your heart, soul and strength, one small lapse in that will scupper your sinless perfection. Also, just one thought that when you get pretty close to perfection you start to think, "I'm doing pretty well right now" is the sin of pride and that kills your sinless perception stone dead. We can sin without realising it, because there are not only outward behavioural sins, but there are sins in the heart. The very fact that you might have fellowship with only those believers of your own religious denomination or theological view, is a party spirit which is a sin as well. So, how does your sinless perfection stack up against those things?

 

[justbyfaith]

Let me know when you attain sinless perfection in your life, and then tell me your secret. The rule is that you need to love the Lord with all your heart, soul and strength, one small lapse in that will scupper your sinless perfection. Also, just one thought that when you get pretty close to perfection you start to think, "I'm doing pretty well right now" is the sin of pride and that kills your sinless perception stone dead. We can sin without realising it, because there are not only outward behavioural sins, but there are sins in the heart. The very fact that you might have fellowship with only those believers of your own religious denomination or theological view, is a party spirit which is a sin as well. So, how does your sinless perfection stack up against those things?

It is not a sin to not fellowship with, say, mormons; because the Bible tells us not to fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness (Ephesians 5:11).

And while I most certainly attend a Calvary Chapel and tend to fraternize with people who go to my church, this in no way means that I will not fellowship with, say, a Methodist.

Now consider Galatians 3:14 and Romans 5:5.

Through faith, the love of the Lord is shed abroad in the hearts of those who belong to Him because of the Holy Ghost who has come to dwell within us.

This is the fruit of the Spirit; and against such there is no law (Galatians 5:22-23).

Because I bear this fruit, I have a righteousness of God that is apart from the law that is nevertheless attested to by the law and the prophets (Romans 3:21) that it is righteousness indeed. This is practical righteousness on the same level as Jesus Christ is righteous (1 John 3:7).

This is the righteousness of faith (Philippians 3:9) and yet it translates into the righteousness of the law being fulfilled in me (Romans 8:4).

It is not that I keep the law perfectly (Galatians 6:13)...such as wearing tzitzit and tallit and tefilin or blowing the trumpet on the new moon...

But I have been delivered from the law so that I might walk in newness of the spirit and not any longer in the oldness of the letter (Romans 7:6).

This amounts to walking not after the flesh but after the Spirit (again, Romans 8:4).

In doing so, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in me (above verse).

And since sin is the transgression of the law, I cannot sin in such a state (when I am walking not after the flesh but after the Spirit)...because if the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in me, then I am not doing anything in violation of the spirit of the law.

Again, this is because I bear the fruit of the Spirit and there is no law against bearing such fruit (Galatians 5:22-23).

Therefore, in bearing the fruit of the Spirit, I do not transgress the law; and since sin is the transgression of the law, this means that I do not sin.

For sin has now been re-defined as walking after the flesh (Romans 8:4); and as anything that is not of faith (Romans 14:23).

 

[justbyfaith]

Also, if we say that we have obtained the standard of perfection, that immediately disqualifies us from being perfect.

All those who are perfect will have this attitude, that we have room to grow (Philippians 3:13-15).

Therefore, if anyone has been perfected, they will not know it (Job 9:21 (kjv)) and therefore would never claim to be without sin (1 John 1:8).

Job 9:21, Though I were perfect, yet would I not know my soul: I would despise my life.

None of these things preclude that entire sanctification is un-obtainable.

It is merely to say that if anyone has obtained it, they will always consider that there is more that the Lord can do in their lives in the way of perfection. They may be unaware of what things can be done to further perfect their lives; whether they have obtained it or have not obtained it. Thus, they may be perfected and yet consider that they have not yet obtained this second benefit; because it may be that anyone who thinks that they may have been perfected has not yet been perfected. They would continue to rely on the Holy Spirit as being the light that will search their hearts in order that they may continue to be cleansed from all sin as it comes in from the outside (Proverbs 20:27, 1 John 1:7).

 

[ChristisGod]

Ah more self righteousness of the pharisees to lift up self to put others down. Log in your own eye meet the speck in your brothers eye.

 

[justbyfaith]

Ah more self righteousness of the pharisees to lift up self to put others down. Log in your own eye meet the speck in your brothers eye.

On the contrary, I am speaking of the righteousness of Christ as it is first imputed, and then imparted, to us.

Reject this at your own peril.

 

[justbyfaith]

The heart of the issue, picking up where the argument really begins:

entire sanctification is an obtainable goal.

 

[JohnDB]

Donut time?

 

[ChristisGod]

Donut time?

or popcorn its getting entertaining lol