Equal to Christ!

[True Faith]

Father Fortman.

“If we take the New Testament writers together they tell us there is only one God, the creator and lord of the universe, who is the Father of Jesus.”

Pausing here to point out that he recognizes and acknowledges that the NT writers believed the one God is the Father, the Messiah’s God and their God. No one else. The Father alone. That’s Jewish monotheism, unitarian.

Continuing now with his comment from the point where I paused.

”They call Jesus the Son of God, Messiah, Lord, Savior, Word, Wisdom. They assign him the divine functions of creation, salvation, judgment. Sometimes they call Him God explicitly. They do not speak as fully and clearly of the Holy Spirit as they do the Son, but at times they coordinate Him with the Father and the Son and put Him on a level with them as far as divinity and personality are concerned. They give us in their writings a triadic ground plan and triadic formulas. They do not speak in abstract terms of nature, substance, person, relation, circumincession, mission, but they present in their own ways the ideas that are behind these words.”

Pausing again. A triadic ground plan and triadic formulas aren’t the same as trinitarian formulas. Trinitarian formulation would eventually be developed by later theologians into the doctrine of the Trinity. The NT writers aren’t using the abstract terms used in trinitarian language. Trinitarians do.

Picking up again now where I left off.

”They give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons.“

Pausing to say that he’s right. The NT writers didn’t. The Catholic Church gets the credit for that.

Now comes his explanation for how the Church later became trinitarian.

“But they do give us an elemental trinitarianism, the data from which such a formal doctrine of the Triune God may be formulated.”

“Elemental trinitarianism” isn’t the doctrine of the Trinity. It’s taking statements made by the NT writers, the data, and formulating it in a way which the NT writers themselves didn’t. Doing so produced a faith, the trinitarian faith, which was not the unitarian faith of the NT writers.

now to debunk your entire statements in one fell swoop...

The doctrine clearly states that Each individual person of God is, in Fact, God Himself... Separate and distinct from each other but God is each one of them...

Whose will did God Himself come down from heaven to do, if not his own... Answer that without removing Jesus from being God Himself...

 

[Matthias]

now to debunk your entire statements in one fell swoop...

The doctrine clearly states that Each individual person of God is, in Fact, God Himself... Separate and distinct from each other but God is each one of them...

So you think you’ve debunked the Roman Catholic author, who himself believed and wrote in support of the doctrine of the Trinity.

Whose will did God Himself come down from heaven to do, if not his own... Answer that without removing Jesus from being God Himself...

I’m a Jewish monotheist, not a trinitarian.

 

[theefaith]

No. I’m under the new covenant.

I like seeing Church history that was made. When, where, why, how and by whom the doctrine of the Trinity was made is very well-documented.



That’s right. See again the quote from Father Fortman.

The strength of Catholic scholarship, that which imo makes it superior to Protestant scholarship, is that it allows persons living in biblical times to be what they are: non-trinitarians.



That’s right.

Matthew 28:19 doesn’t say God is the Trinity, and Jesus doesn’t teach the Trinity to the apostles.

I know you believe Jesus is a Roman Catholic, but I’m not persuaded. I am persuaded by scholars who, like N.T. Wright, recognize and acknowledge that Jesus is a Jewish monotheist.

was Jesus Christian?

 

[Matthias]

was Jesus Christian?

Jesus is a Jew. He founded a sect within Judaism. “Christians” are persons who are disciples of Jesus.

 

[theefaith]

I quoted from the translations which you said you use for apologetics. David and God were worshipped. Why was David worshipped?



Yes. Jesus was born a king.

Jesus of Nazareth is, as was placarded, the king of the Jews.



Jesus of Nazareth is a man. If I were to ask you to provide documentation from scripture I’m certain that you would be able to do so. Unless you tell me otherwise, I’ll take it that it’s something we agree on.



Yes. Herod was seeking to kill the child. Neither Herod nor the Romans were keen on someone being a rival king.

Who, again, is God? The Trinity warned them in a dream?

Who is God? The Father warned them in a dream.

Jesus is two natures in one person
God and man
You seem to love to ignore scripture

if he is only a man he may not be worshipped if he is God and man he may be worshipped

1 Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

The father and the son are one here

1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

God the father Implies God is more than the father alone!

 

[theefaith]

Father Fortman.

“If we take the New Testament writers together they tell us there is only one God, the creator and lord of the universe, who is the Father of Jesus.”

Pausing here to point out that he recognizes and acknowledges that the NT writers believed the one God is the Father, the Messiah’s God and their God. No one else. The Father alone. That’s Jewish monotheism, unitarian.

Continuing now with his comment from the point where I paused.

”They call Jesus the Son of God, Messiah, Lord, Savior, Word, Wisdom. They assign him the divine functions of creation, salvation, judgment. Sometimes they call Him God explicitly. They do not speak as fully and clearly of the Holy Spirit as they do the Son, but at times they coordinate Him with the Father and the Son and put Him on a level with them as far as divinity and personality are concerned. They give us in their writings a triadic ground plan and triadic formulas. They do not speak in abstract terms of nature, substance, person, relation, circumincession, mission, but they present in their own ways the ideas that are behind these words.”

Pausing again. A triadic ground plan and triadic formulas aren’t the same as trinitarian formulas. Trinitarian formulation would eventually be developed by later theologians into the doctrine of the Trinity. The NT writers aren’t using the abstract terms used in trinitarian language. Trinitarians do.

Picking up again now where I left off.

”They give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons.“

Pausing to say that he’s right. The NT writers didn’t. The Catholic Church gets the credit for that.

Now comes his explanation for how the Church later became trinitarian.

“But they do give us an elemental trinitarianism, the data from which such a formal doctrine of the Triune God may be formulated.”

“Elemental trinitarianism” isn’t the doctrine of the Trinity. It’s taking statements made by the NT writers, the data, and formulating it in a way which the NT writers themselves didn’t. Doing so produced a faith, the trinitarian faith, which was not the unitarian faith of the NT writers.

John 14:8–10:

Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak from myself. It is the Father living in me who is doing the works.”

 

[theefaith]

Who are the saints? The holy ones who will possesses the kingdom.

Do you count yourself in their number?



Who are the holy ones / the Lord’s saints at Jerusalem whom Ananias heard about, from many, that Saul had done harm to?

the communion of saints the new covenant church

 

[theefaith]

Who is “he”?

“Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?”

(Matthew 26:53, KJV)

Who is God to Jesus?

his angels Christ’s the context is his second coming

 

[Matthias]

Jesus is two natures in one person
God and man
You seem to love to ignore scripture

I don’t ignore scripture, nor do I think or say that you do.

if he is only a man he may not be worshipped if he is God and man he may be worshipped

I’ve commented on the issue several times now.

1 Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

I don’t deny that Jesus is the Christ. I insist that Jesus is the Christ.

The father and the son are one here

The Father and the Son are always one.

1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Only one person in this passage is identified as God.

Elect according to the foreknowledge of the Trinity? No.

Elect according to the foreknowledge of the Father? Yes.

God the father…

You’ve understood that that one person is the Father.

…Implies God is more than the father alone!

I’m convinced that you genuinely believe that.

The God of Jesus is the Father alone.

There is no God besides the God of Jesus.

The God of Peter is the God of Jesus - the Father alone.

 

[Matthias]

John 14:8–10:

Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak from myself. It is the Father living in me who is doing the works.”

Yes. You and I both know that Jesus isn’t telling Philip that he, Jesus himself, is the Father himself.

 

[Matthias]

the communion of saints the new covenant church

Agreed. It wasn’t some super category of saints apart from all who believed Jesus is the Christ that Saul had persecuted.

 

[Matthias]

his angels Christ’s the context is his second coming

That’s right. God - his, not the Trinity - has given them to him.

Are you familiar with Joseph typology?

 

[theefaith]

The Lord God of Israel is the Messiah’s God.

”1. The one God. (a) theos is the most frequent designation of God in the NT. Belief in the one, only and unique God (Matt. 23:9; Rom. 3:30; 1 Cor. 8:4,6; Gal. 3:20; 1 Tim. 2:5; Jas. 2:19) is an established part of Christian tradition. Jesus himself made the fundamental confession of Jud. his own and expressly quoted the Shema (Deut. 6:4-5; see Mk. 12:29-30; cf. Matt. 22:37; Lk. 10:27). This guaranteed continuity between the old and the new covenants. The God whom Christians worship is the God of the fathers (Acts 3:13; 5:30; 22:14), the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Acts 3:13; 7:32; cf. Matt. 22:32; Mk. 12:26; Lk. 20:37), the God of Israel (Matt. 15:31; Lk. 1:68; Acts 13:17), and the God of Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 1:3; Eph. 1:3; 1Pet. 1:3).”

(New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Abridged Edition, p. 244)



That’s right.



Jesus is the Son of the eternal / living God.

“But these are written, that ye might believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”

(John 20:31, KJV)

But these are written, that ye might believe Jesus is the Christ, [the Trinity]? No.

But these are written, that ye might believe Jesus is the Christ, [the second person of the Trinity]? No. That’s reading post-biblical trinitarian theology into the text.

But these are written, that ye might believe Jesus is the Christ, [the eternal God]? No. In trinitarianism, the eternal God is the Trinity, three persons, not one person. In Jewish monotheism, the eternal God is the Father. John, himself a Jewish monotheist, isn’t talking about the Father. He’s talking about Jesus of Nazareth.

But these are written, that ye might believe Jesus is the Christ, [the Son of the eternal / living God]? Yes.

But these are written, that ye might believe Jesus is the Christ, [the Son of the Father]? Yes.

P.S.

I’d like to hear what you think about Nehemiah 9:27.

“Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.” (KJV)

there is only one God and can only be one God!
Uncreated and eternal
And only one Lord!

the scripture says we must hold fast to the doctrine of the apostles acts 2:42

that includes the apostles creed

The Apostles Creed!

I believe in one God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried; he descended to hell. The third day he rose again from the dead. He ascended to heaven and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty. From there he will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

You said you are Christian
But you believe doctrine from other religions

the divinity of Christ and the trinity are the foundation of Christian doctrine

you cannot reject them and be Christian

there is also only one true church of which no Ana-baptists are members

apostolic authority is the teaching authority of Christ, to reject it is to reject christ

 

[theefaith]

I’m glad to hear that.



If we were living back in the days of the Inquisition, would you have?

We both live in the United States of America. If the United States of America was today a Christian kingdom, would you?

would I agree that it is just? Yes

scripture

Justice of the state

Does not wield the sword in vain!

Old Testament:

Ez 8:16 And he brought me into the inner court of the Lord's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.

Ez 9:4 And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

(Even those who did not worship the sun but were not grieved at this offense were slain!)

1 kings 18:21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the Lord be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

1 kings 18:40 And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.

(All these false prophets were killed)

Leviticus 20:27
A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.


We don’t apologize for the truth of the gospel of life!

Two edge sword:

The church has received from her savior the “sacred deposit of faith” eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

And has to command from Christ to teach all men matt 28:19 without error Lk 10:16 Jn 20:21 Jn 16:13

To teach, and declare the truth of divine revelation and to condemn all errors!

To Defend and safeguard the sacred deposit of faith and all the faithful from error preserving the purity of the faith of Jesus Christ!

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

We live in freethinking Open society with “rights” like free speech, freedom of the press etc. with separation of church and state as opposed to a close kingdom, by a prime minister with the cardinal arch-bishop as the chancellor and only the true faith revealed by Christ being allowed and all other are another Gospel and error and treason not only against the king and the realm but against God!

Treason!

Heresy is treason against God and His revealed truth!

Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

1 Corinthians 16:22
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema!



Authority in the state!

1 pet 2: 13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;

14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

 

[Matthias]

there is only one God and can only be one God!
Uncreated and eternal
And only one Lord!

the scripture says we must hold fast to the doctrine of the apostles acts 2:42

that includes the apostles creed

The Apostles Creed!

I believe in one God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried; he descended to hell. The third day he rose again from the dead. He ascended to heaven and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty. From there he will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

You said you are Christian
But you believe doctrine from other religions

the divinity of Christ and the trinity are the foundation of Christian doctrine

you cannot reject them and be Christian

there is also only one true church of which no Ana-baptists are members

apostolic authority is the teaching authority of Christ, to reject it is to reject christ

I asked in a post (see #212) earlier this morning what would it take for you be convinced that I’ve committed treason against the Trinity. Are you convinced now?

No?

Consider the following. A member of the forums has stated publicly that the one thing the spirit of antichrist will always do is deny the Deity of Christ.

Some unitarians assert and affirm the Deity of Christ. The spirit of antichrist test, as it’s being called, wouldn’t qualify if that alone is the only standard of measure.

I’m an ex-trinitarian. (Get the antichrist test ready.) I’m a Jewish monotheist. (Look closely. Your inquisitors would have.) I deny the Deity of Christ. [I assert that the deity of Christ is the Father alone. There is no God besides the Father.] (What does the so-called spirit of antichrist test tell you about me?)

You have my written confession. It was made without duress. What further proof do you need? What further proof do you want? If I can supply it to you, I will.

 

[Matthias]

would I agree that it is just? Yes

scripture

Justice of the state

Does not wield the sword in vain!

Old Testament:

Ez 8:16 And he brought me into the inner court of the Lord's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.

Ez 9:4 And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

(Even those who did not worship the sun but were not grieved at this offense were slain!)

1 kings 18:21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the Lord be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

1 kings 18:40 And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.

(All these false prophets were killed)

Leviticus 20:27
A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.


We don’t apologize for the truth of the gospel of life!

Two edge sword:

The church has received from her savior the “sacred deposit of faith” eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

And has to command from Christ to teach all men matt 28:19 without error Lk 10:16 Jn 20:21 Jn 16:13

To teach, and declare the truth of divine revelation and to condemn all errors!

To Defend and safeguard the sacred deposit of faith and all the faithful from error preserving the purity of the faith of Jesus Christ!

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

We live in freethinking Open society with “rights” like free speech, freedom of the press etc. with separation of church and state as opposed to a close kingdom, by a prime minister with the cardinal arch-bishop as the chancellor and only the true faith revealed by Christ being allowed and all other are another Gospel and error and treason not only against the king and the realm but against God!

Treason!

Heresy is treason against God and His revealed truth!

Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

1 Corinthians 16:22
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema!



Authority in the state!

1 pet 2: 13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;

14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

I have committed treason against the Trinity, not against the Messiah’s God.

I consider you to be a Christian. You’ve not been able to consider me a Christian.

For all practical purposes, we have an interfaith dialogue.

 

[theefaith]

The CC has a stronghold on you my friend . cause this is exact mindset it had during its great persecutions against many .
IT TOO believed it was the christain kingdom and it thus had the right to put men to death .
You are very close to the kingdom of the beast as we speak . JESUS is the one who said GOD ALONE
is the only one who has the right to put any to death . NOT me , not you , not popes or etc .
KEEP THAT IN MIND . cause soon as one the world will cry AWAY with these fundamentals and many will cheer in that day and in that hour
as many true lambs are wisked away out of society , seen as dangerous and put to death .
YOUR CHURCH is about to lead in this ALL over again just as it did throughout the ages . FLEE IT NOW .
And come to the true saving knowledge of Christ Jesus . I Do not write this cause i fear man . NO
I write this because i fear for YOUR SOUL . Hurry thee faith .

who defends the truth?

who defends the rights of God?

Justice of the state

Does not wield the sword in vain!

Old Testament:

Ez 8:16 And he brought me into the inner court of the Lord's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.

Ez 9:4 And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

(Even those who did not worship the sun but were not grieved at this offense were slain!)

1 kings 18:21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the Lord be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

1 kings 18:40 And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.

(All these false prophets were killed)

Leviticus 20:27
A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.


We don’t apologize for the truth of the gospel of life!

Two edge sword:

The church has received from her savior the “sacred deposit of faith” eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

And has to command from Christ to teach all men matt 28:19 without error Lk 10:16 Jn 20:21 Jn 16:13

To teach, and declare the truth of divine revelation and to condemn all errors!

To Defend and safeguard the sacred deposit of faith and all the faithful from error preserving the purity of the faith of Jesus Christ!

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

We live in freethinking Open society with “rights” like free speech, freedom of the press etc. with separation of church and state as opposed to a close kingdom, by a prime minister with the cardinal arch-bishop as the chancellor and only the true faith revealed by Christ being allowed and all other are another Gospel and error and treason not only against the king and the realm but against God!

Treason!

Heresy is treason against God and His revealed truth!

Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

1 Corinthians 16:22
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema!



Authority in the state!

1 pet 2: 13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;

14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

 

[theefaith]

What would it take to convince you that I’ve committed treason against the Trinity?

An inquiry “inquisition”!

 

[theefaith]

“saying, ‘The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses;’”

(Matthew 23:2, NASB)



You’ve inserted an interpretation in Daniel 2:44.

then what kings are referred to?

 

[Matthias]

An inquiry “inquisition”!

You have it. There was no need to torture me to get the information. I handed it to you on a silver platter. I’ve never had to work this hard in my life to convince someone that I’ve committed treason against the Trinity!

I’m thinking again about the Anabaptist, Dirk Willems, and the Catholic prison guard. Dirk surrendered his life in order to save the Catholic from drowning. The Catholic asked the state to release Dirk, going against the Catholic Church and the state in doing so. The representative of the state told the guard to remember his oath and denied the request.

Which kind of Catholic are you?