Please forgive me if this sounds like a dumb question. I've read in various threads people making statements like "that's not a salvation issue", or "essential to christian faith", and other such statements.So my question is, Are there actually essential doctrines of faith and non-essential doctrines of faith that are agreed upon between the denominations of Christianitiy?Who determines if they are essential and how is it determined whether they are essential or not?I read through most of the threads on this board diligently, and am spending time reading the bible daily, but I feel like I am almost more confused that I was before. I am desperately seeking a relationship with God, but for the most part it feels one sided at this point.Wouldn't every denomination have a different list of what is essential to the Christian faith thus making all of the lists worthless in defining what is essential and what isn't?Squeak
Essentials of Christianity
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DrBubbaLove
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Love God, love yourself and love others. Strictly speaking the rest is gravy. As we mature in our relationships we often discover things we did not know before that makes us appreciate the object of love more.In reading the Bible it is evident that God has reached out to man. Religion is our response. To me your relationship with God and growth in it is more important than your choice of Church. Even if my Church says it contains the "fullness" of all that God has revealed in reaching out to man, what good would that be to you if in trying to be a "good" Catholic your relationship with God suffered? From our view, you might be wrong about certain things, but if being where you are improves your relationship with God, that cannot be a bad thing.
SealedEternal
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That's a good point, and many today are trying to make that distinction in attempt to suggest that all of the major religious institutions are the "church" (ekklesia) of Jesus Christ as long as they agree on these "essentials." Therefore we can all coexist in our little religious sects and don't have to challenge each others doctrines unless it is on one of these so-called essentials.The Bible on the other hand says that the true "ekklesia" of Jesus Christ is one body in unity under Him, and that there can be no divisions and no contradicting doctrines. The modern religious institutions contradict on virtually every conceivable doctrine and unless you claim that Jesus isn't God or didn't really rise from the dead then you are a true "christian" because that's all that's essential, while denying those essential doctrines makes you a cult member and not a Christian.The fact is that God is not the author of confusion and His will can and will be known by everyone who wants to know the truth, but the hearts of men are deceitfull and prefer to subscribe to religious institutions that fit their own needs rather than coming to Him on His terms and finding the truth. These divided unbiblical religious institutions therefore prevent people from truly coming to know Christ and becoming His true children because they all twist His word around on many of His essential truths. He didn't give us this rather large Bible filled with things He didn't expect us to know and follow. He put them there because they are essential, and those who desire to come to Him on His terms, and truly know Him, will find the truths that these institutions are perverting.SealedEternal
(DrBubbaLove;36940)
Love God, love yourself and love others. Strictly speaking the rest is gravy. As we mature in our relationships we often discover things we did not know before that makes us appreciate the object of love more.In reading the Bible it is evident that God has reached out to man. Religion is our response. To me your relationship with God and growth in it is more important than your choice of Church. Even if my Church says it contains the "fullness" of all that God has revealed in reaching out to man, what good would that be to you if in trying to be a "good" Catholic your relationship with God suffered? From our view, you might be wrong about certain things, but if being where you are improves your relationship with God, that cannot be a bad thing.
Love God, love yourself and love others. I would have to agree that this is essential. But is that it? As long as you do these things then nothing else matters? So as long as I follow these three "essentials" the rest doesn't matter which side of the "fence" I am on with regard to other doctrines?Just the fact that there ARE so many denominations would seem to indicate that it can't be as simple as that. Not to say that these things are simple to do, but simple in theory.
Love God, love yourself and love others. Strictly speaking the rest is gravy. As we mature in our relationships we often discover things we did not know before that makes us appreciate the object of love more.In reading the Bible it is evident that God has reached out to man. Religion is our response. To me your relationship with God and growth in it is more important than your choice of Church. Even if my Church says it contains the "fullness" of all that God has revealed in reaching out to man, what good would that be to you if in trying to be a "good" Catholic your relationship with God suffered? From our view, you might be wrong about certain things, but if being where you are improves your relationship with God, that cannot be a bad thing.
Love God, love yourself and love others. I would have to agree that this is essential. But is that it? As long as you do these things then nothing else matters? So as long as I follow these three "essentials" the rest doesn't matter which side of the "fence" I am on with regard to other doctrines?Just the fact that there ARE so many denominations would seem to indicate that it can't be as simple as that. Not to say that these things are simple to do, but simple in theory.
(SealedEternal;36942)
That's a good point, and many today are trying to make that distinction in attempt to suggest that all of the major religious institutions are the "church" (ekklesia) of Jesus Christ as long as they agree on these "essentials." Therefore we can all coexist in our little religious sects and don't have to challenge each others doctrines unless it is on one of these so-called essentials.The Bible on the other hand says that the true "ekklesia" of Jesus Christ is one body in unity under Him, and that there can be no divisions and no contradicting doctrines. The modern religious institutions contradict on virtually every conceivable doctrine and unless you claim that Jesus isn't God or didn't really rise from the dead then you are a true "christian" because that's all that's essential, while denying those essential doctrines makes you a cult member and not a Christian.The fact is that God is not the author of confusion and His will can and will be known by everyone who wants to know the truth, but the hearts of men are deceitfull and prefer to subscribe to religious institutions that fit their own needs rather than coming to Him on His terms and finding the truth. These divided unbiblical religious institutions therefore prevent people from truly coming to know Christ and becoming His true children because they all twist His word around on many of His essential truths. He didn't give us this rather large Bible filled with things He didn't expect us to know and follow. He put them there because they are essential, and those who desire to come to Him on His terms, and truly know Him, will find the truths that these institutions are perverting.SealedEternal
Very though provoking post Sealed. So are there Biblically religious institutions as opposed to the unbiblical religious institutions you mentioned? Or do you believe that all religious institutions are unbiblical? You are right, God gave us the entire Bible, filled with things he expects us to know, which in turn makes the entire Bible essential. The problem then lies in the interpretation of the Bible. So if I don't attend a religious institution (biblical or non-biblical) and am left to interpret the Bible on my own understanding, how do I know if I am interpretting it correctly? Should I have the ability to make the distinctions between true doctrines and false doctrines on my own? Can this be done by simply reading my Bible on my own? Or is it necessary to have the "right" Bible and be schooled in the original languages in order to derive the correct truth from the Bible?Somehow I can't see that it should be that difficult to become one of Christ's followers and arrive at the biblical truths? Is it meant to take a lifetime to reach that goal of finding the truth or the ability to distinguish between true and false doctrines?Squeak
That's a good point, and many today are trying to make that distinction in attempt to suggest that all of the major religious institutions are the "church" (ekklesia) of Jesus Christ as long as they agree on these "essentials." Therefore we can all coexist in our little religious sects and don't have to challenge each others doctrines unless it is on one of these so-called essentials.The Bible on the other hand says that the true "ekklesia" of Jesus Christ is one body in unity under Him, and that there can be no divisions and no contradicting doctrines. The modern religious institutions contradict on virtually every conceivable doctrine and unless you claim that Jesus isn't God or didn't really rise from the dead then you are a true "christian" because that's all that's essential, while denying those essential doctrines makes you a cult member and not a Christian.The fact is that God is not the author of confusion and His will can and will be known by everyone who wants to know the truth, but the hearts of men are deceitfull and prefer to subscribe to religious institutions that fit their own needs rather than coming to Him on His terms and finding the truth. These divided unbiblical religious institutions therefore prevent people from truly coming to know Christ and becoming His true children because they all twist His word around on many of His essential truths. He didn't give us this rather large Bible filled with things He didn't expect us to know and follow. He put them there because they are essential, and those who desire to come to Him on His terms, and truly know Him, will find the truths that these institutions are perverting.SealedEternal
Very though provoking post Sealed. So are there Biblically religious institutions as opposed to the unbiblical religious institutions you mentioned? Or do you believe that all religious institutions are unbiblical? You are right, God gave us the entire Bible, filled with things he expects us to know, which in turn makes the entire Bible essential. The problem then lies in the interpretation of the Bible. So if I don't attend a religious institution (biblical or non-biblical) and am left to interpret the Bible on my own understanding, how do I know if I am interpretting it correctly? Should I have the ability to make the distinctions between true doctrines and false doctrines on my own? Can this be done by simply reading my Bible on my own? Or is it necessary to have the "right" Bible and be schooled in the original languages in order to derive the correct truth from the Bible?Somehow I can't see that it should be that difficult to become one of Christ's followers and arrive at the biblical truths? Is it meant to take a lifetime to reach that goal of finding the truth or the ability to distinguish between true and false doctrines?Squeak
DrBubbaLove
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(Squeak;36951)
Love God, love yourself and love others. I would have to agree that this is essential. But is that it? As long as you do these things then nothing else matters? So as long as I follow these three "essentials" the rest doesn't matter which side of the "fence" I am on with regard to other doctrines?Just the fact that there ARE so many denominations would seem to indicate that it can't be as simple as that. Not to say that these things are simple to do, but simple in theory.
Well that goes to the heart of what we consider "essential" to mean. If by "essential" we mean get to Heaven, then I submit that it is an adequate representation of how we are judged and can "get" there. It would be the reason people who have never heard the Word can "get" there (still by Jesus alone), so it certainly must be enough for them.Saying nothing else matters is broadening the definition and we would have to say truth matters and knowing a truth is certainly a good thing. But is fulling knowing all truths that God has revealed to Man "essential" for getting Heaven? I don't think so. If we could show/believe one example then it cannot be true. Am thinking of babies or the mentally challenged. Why should they be able to be judged and go to Heaven but the poor soul born in the wrong place and time not be able?I think it is true to be a member of a Church that individually one must consent, at least intellectually if not publically, to the body of teachings that represent that faith as being true. So in that sense you are Methodist or Catholic or Baptist or Evangelical because you believe those thngs to be true.And if one thinks deeper about what it means to LOVE, then actually the answer as given (Love God, love yourself and love others) is not as simple as it appears. If you LOVE me, keep my commandments for example (which again in itself has much deeper meanings...etc).
Love God, love yourself and love others. I would have to agree that this is essential. But is that it? As long as you do these things then nothing else matters? So as long as I follow these three "essentials" the rest doesn't matter which side of the "fence" I am on with regard to other doctrines?Just the fact that there ARE so many denominations would seem to indicate that it can't be as simple as that. Not to say that these things are simple to do, but simple in theory.
Well that goes to the heart of what we consider "essential" to mean. If by "essential" we mean get to Heaven, then I submit that it is an adequate representation of how we are judged and can "get" there. It would be the reason people who have never heard the Word can "get" there (still by Jesus alone), so it certainly must be enough for them.Saying nothing else matters is broadening the definition and we would have to say truth matters and knowing a truth is certainly a good thing. But is fulling knowing all truths that God has revealed to Man "essential" for getting Heaven? I don't think so. If we could show/believe one example then it cannot be true. Am thinking of babies or the mentally challenged. Why should they be able to be judged and go to Heaven but the poor soul born in the wrong place and time not be able?I think it is true to be a member of a Church that individually one must consent, at least intellectually if not publically, to the body of teachings that represent that faith as being true. So in that sense you are Methodist or Catholic or Baptist or Evangelical because you believe those thngs to be true.And if one thinks deeper about what it means to LOVE, then actually the answer as given (Love God, love yourself and love others) is not as simple as it appears. If you LOVE me, keep my commandments for example (which again in itself has much deeper meanings...etc).
SealedEternal
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(Squeak;36957)
Very though provoking post Sealed. So are there Biblically religious institutions as opposed to the unbiblical religious institutions you mentioned? Or do you believe that all religious institutions are unbiblical?
That's an interesting study in itself, because most of these religious institutions have redefined the word "church" in order to claim authority over the people and make them dependent on these institutions rather than Christ Himself for their salvation. The word "church" in our English Bibles is “ekklesia” and comes from two Greek words: Ek means out and Kaleo means call, and this is the verb form. When we put the two together and write the noun form of it, it is Ekklesia and means "called out ones." Therefore it refers to the individuals who Christ has called out of the world and onto Himself, and not to any man made institution whatsoever.Man made institutions themselves are unbiblical, while the true body of Christ's called ones are said in scripture to be one body in unity without divisions. If people truly made Him their Lord and the Head of the body, there would be no such divisions and all false doctrine would be exposed, but mankind instead has adopted this mob mentality of surrounding himself with people who hold the same false doctrines and driving away anyone who tries to refute them by encouraging that person to attend a different "denomionation" who may teach that doctrine correctly. That way the false doctrines are protected and what professes to be Christianity is divided into hundreds of contradicting religions. Then to try to solve that obvious problem, people claim they are all the body of Christ because only a select few doctrines that they all agree upon are essential, and that you can believe whatever you want on virtually everything else because nothing else is "essential." The apostles on the other hand always addressed divisions immediately and figured out which position was correct to restore the unity of truth, so that this situation wouldn't occur, but that the true body of Christ always agreed on what was true and what wasn't, and that all error was immediately eliminated.
You are right, God gave us the entire Bible, filled with things he expects us to know, which in turn makes the entire Bible essential. The problem then lies in the interpretation of the Bible. So if I don't attend a religious institution (biblical or non-biblical) and am left to interpret the Bible on my own understanding, how do I know if I am interpretting it correctly?
Every false interpretation is addressed in scripture itself, so if you study any issue until your doctrine harmonizes with all of scripture you will know your interpretation is correct. The reason there are different "interpretations" is because most people refuse to accept the true interpretation and cling to a few out of context verses and refuse to aknowledge the other verses that refute their position, in order to defend the false pretexts of their man-made religion, rather than allowing God's Word to be the sole authority. The issue isn't that God hasn't made Himself clear, but rather that the deceitful heart of man cannot endure the truth.
Should I have the ability to make the distinctions between true doctrines and false doctrines on my own? Can this be done by simply reading my Bible on my own? Or is it necessary to have the "right" Bible and be schooled in the original languages in order to derive the correct truth from the Bible?
That is the fundamental issue that the man-made religions do not want you to ask. If they can indoctrinate you with their pretexts, give you the verses that seem to defend their position, and get you to filter everything you read through their understanding, then they can effectively control you for the rest of your life. If you come to Christ on your own and allow His Word to do the teaching with His Spirit indwelling your heart, and you are willing to accept the truth on His terms regardless of whether it is what you wanted to hear, then yes; He will show you the truth, and you can have a definative answer to every pertinent issue. You will know you are interpreting it correctly when you aren't contradicting any other verses.
Somehow I can't see that it should be that difficult to become one of Christ's followers and arrive at the biblical truths? Is it meant to take a lifetime to reach that goal of finding the truth or the ability to distinguish between true and false doctrines?
Jesus said that the way is narrow and few would find it. This is because mankind would rather join a religion that suits himself than to come to Christ on His terms and accept all of His commandments regardless of our own desires to do otherwise. Religion seems like a shortcut to finding these truths, and usually offers easier ways to seemingly gain God's acceptance, but in reality it is the wrong path altogether. This is the broad way of Matthew 7 that the "many" follow, and all call Him Lord, Lord but in actuality He says they never knew Him.You can certainly learn from other people, but you have to be aware of their biases and check everything they say from scripture and make sure there are no contradictions. There are also tools availiable for studying the meanings of words such as "church" as I mentioned earlier, because although most literal translations of the Bible do a sufficient job of conveying the message, there are some areas where they fall short. I guess what it comes down to is if you want to truly come to know Christ, than He has to be the number one agenda of your life, and if He is He will ensure that you find Him. If you try to have it both ways by taking the short cut of religion while freeing up your time to pursue your own desires, then you will likely be misled and fail to find Him.SealedEternal
Very though provoking post Sealed. So are there Biblically religious institutions as opposed to the unbiblical religious institutions you mentioned? Or do you believe that all religious institutions are unbiblical?
That's an interesting study in itself, because most of these religious institutions have redefined the word "church" in order to claim authority over the people and make them dependent on these institutions rather than Christ Himself for their salvation. The word "church" in our English Bibles is “ekklesia” and comes from two Greek words: Ek means out and Kaleo means call, and this is the verb form. When we put the two together and write the noun form of it, it is Ekklesia and means "called out ones." Therefore it refers to the individuals who Christ has called out of the world and onto Himself, and not to any man made institution whatsoever.Man made institutions themselves are unbiblical, while the true body of Christ's called ones are said in scripture to be one body in unity without divisions. If people truly made Him their Lord and the Head of the body, there would be no such divisions and all false doctrine would be exposed, but mankind instead has adopted this mob mentality of surrounding himself with people who hold the same false doctrines and driving away anyone who tries to refute them by encouraging that person to attend a different "denomionation" who may teach that doctrine correctly. That way the false doctrines are protected and what professes to be Christianity is divided into hundreds of contradicting religions. Then to try to solve that obvious problem, people claim they are all the body of Christ because only a select few doctrines that they all agree upon are essential, and that you can believe whatever you want on virtually everything else because nothing else is "essential." The apostles on the other hand always addressed divisions immediately and figured out which position was correct to restore the unity of truth, so that this situation wouldn't occur, but that the true body of Christ always agreed on what was true and what wasn't, and that all error was immediately eliminated.
You are right, God gave us the entire Bible, filled with things he expects us to know, which in turn makes the entire Bible essential. The problem then lies in the interpretation of the Bible. So if I don't attend a religious institution (biblical or non-biblical) and am left to interpret the Bible on my own understanding, how do I know if I am interpretting it correctly?
Every false interpretation is addressed in scripture itself, so if you study any issue until your doctrine harmonizes with all of scripture you will know your interpretation is correct. The reason there are different "interpretations" is because most people refuse to accept the true interpretation and cling to a few out of context verses and refuse to aknowledge the other verses that refute their position, in order to defend the false pretexts of their man-made religion, rather than allowing God's Word to be the sole authority. The issue isn't that God hasn't made Himself clear, but rather that the deceitful heart of man cannot endure the truth.
Should I have the ability to make the distinctions between true doctrines and false doctrines on my own? Can this be done by simply reading my Bible on my own? Or is it necessary to have the "right" Bible and be schooled in the original languages in order to derive the correct truth from the Bible?
That is the fundamental issue that the man-made religions do not want you to ask. If they can indoctrinate you with their pretexts, give you the verses that seem to defend their position, and get you to filter everything you read through their understanding, then they can effectively control you for the rest of your life. If you come to Christ on your own and allow His Word to do the teaching with His Spirit indwelling your heart, and you are willing to accept the truth on His terms regardless of whether it is what you wanted to hear, then yes; He will show you the truth, and you can have a definative answer to every pertinent issue. You will know you are interpreting it correctly when you aren't contradicting any other verses.
Somehow I can't see that it should be that difficult to become one of Christ's followers and arrive at the biblical truths? Is it meant to take a lifetime to reach that goal of finding the truth or the ability to distinguish between true and false doctrines?
Jesus said that the way is narrow and few would find it. This is because mankind would rather join a religion that suits himself than to come to Christ on His terms and accept all of His commandments regardless of our own desires to do otherwise. Religion seems like a shortcut to finding these truths, and usually offers easier ways to seemingly gain God's acceptance, but in reality it is the wrong path altogether. This is the broad way of Matthew 7 that the "many" follow, and all call Him Lord, Lord but in actuality He says they never knew Him.You can certainly learn from other people, but you have to be aware of their biases and check everything they say from scripture and make sure there are no contradictions. There are also tools availiable for studying the meanings of words such as "church" as I mentioned earlier, because although most literal translations of the Bible do a sufficient job of conveying the message, there are some areas where they fall short. I guess what it comes down to is if you want to truly come to know Christ, than He has to be the number one agenda of your life, and if He is He will ensure that you find Him. If you try to have it both ways by taking the short cut of religion while freeing up your time to pursue your own desires, then you will likely be misled and fail to find Him.SealedEternal
[quote name='Squeak;36937]Please forgive me if this sounds like a dumb question. I've read in various threads people making statements like "that's not a salvation issue"' date=' or "essential to christian faith", and other such statements.So my question is, Are there actually essential doctrines of faith and non-essential doctrines of faith that are agreed upon between the denominations of Christianitiy?Who determines if they are essential and how is it determined whether they are essential or not?I read through most of the threads on this board diligently, and am spending time reading the bible daily, but I feel like I am almost more confused that I was before. I am desperately seeking a relationship with God, but for the most part it feels one sided at this point.Wouldn't every denomination have a different list of what is essential to the Christian faith thus making all of the lists worthless in defining what is essential and what isn't?Squeak[/QUOTEevery doctrine Jesus teaches IN HIS BIBLE is essential to our faith and life as a christian .confessional Lutherans reguard not one doctrine as small or unimportant.After all every Christian doctrines does divide! the sheep from The goats.dont we want to be Jesus sheep?not judas goats?every time we think a doctrine that Jesus taught is not important we sin .and a sin is a betrayel of Jesus .WE WANT TO BE SHEEP BUT WE FIND OUR SELVES MOST OFTEN AMOUNG THE GOATS .you know your a goat when the God of self takes first place over the God of the bible.and is not that the alter we all find our selves worshipping at many times?[url=http://www.whataboutjesus.com']www.whataboutjesus.com[/url]
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