Eternal salvation vs daily service

[360watt]

There is always a debate, and usually heated on once saved always saved and not osas.

To me, the crux of the matter is context of scripture.

A verse, unless containing enough meaning in itself.. does not stand aside from the verses and chapter and book around it.

So when looking at the Bible.. we need to ask..

Who is talking to whom?

What is the subject?

What is the occasion?

And if not covered by occasion... what is the time and place.

So for eg... a verse that gets quoted a lot is

'Where two or three are gathered there I am with them'

So .. a lot of people take this to mean Jesus is specially in the midst of Christians gathered in any setting.... for any purpose.

The context though is resolving sin issues in a local church community setting.

So if there is a sin problem in a brother in your local church and you get another person.. preferably an elder or the pastor.. and meet with them to try and address the sin.. Jesus blesses this process.

That's the real meaning .. with the whole context. It isn't a verse that stands alone.

So it is with verses that are about eternal salvation or daily service.

Usually they get mixed up.. so a verse that's about warning believers of rebuke and discipline, gets put to mean losing eternal life.

Or a verse that IS about receiving eternal life gets put in the daily service box and interpreted having to keep up to keep eternal life.

So with James 2.. 'faith without works is dead'

It just gets taken from its surrounds and left hanging there with no friends of the verses that surround it that give its real context and meaning.

The context has most of the book of James being about what happens after conversion. Mostly not about getting saved.

So with eternal salvation and daily service.. I think it would be good to list the verses that are about initial salvation, and those about daily faith.

 

[mailmandan]

In regards to James 2, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works (which would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree). James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works (bare profession of faith) demonstrates that it's dead.

If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

 

[Robert Gwin]

There is always a debate, and usually heated on once saved always saved and not osas.

To me, the crux of the matter is context of scripture.

A verse, unless containing enough meaning in itself.. does not stand aside from the verses and chapter and book around it.

So when looking at the Bible.. we need to ask..

Who is talking to whom?

What is the subject?

What is the occasion?

And if not covered by occasion... what is the time and place.

So for eg... a verse that gets quoted a lot is

'Where two or three are gathered there I am with them'

So .. a lot of people take this to mean Jesus is specially in the midst of Christians gathered in any setting.... for any purpose.

The context though is resolving sin issues in a local church community setting.

So if there is a sin problem in a brother in your local church and you get another person.. preferably an elder or the pastor.. and meet with them to try and address the sin.. Jesus blesses this process.

That's the real meaning .. with the whole context. It isn't a verse that stands alone.

So it is with verses that are about eternal salvation or daily service.

Usually they get mixed up.. so a verse that's about warning believers of rebuke and discipline, gets put to mean losing eternal life.

Or a verse that IS about receiving eternal life gets put in the daily service box and interpreted having to keep up to keep eternal life.

So with James 2.. 'faith without works is dead'

It just gets taken from its surrounds and left hanging there with no friends of the verses that surround it that give its real context and meaning.

The context has most of the book of James being about what happens after conversion. Mostly not about getting saved.

So with eternal salvation and daily service.. I think it would be good to list the verses that are about initial salvation, and those about daily faith.

Already settled 360, Jesus said the one who endures to the end will be saved. If he is wrong, what hope do we have for salvation anyway? The Bible does not contradict, and interprets itself. So if a person wants to believe that because he believes in Jesus he is saved, so be it, but even the demons believe in God, but where is their salvation?

 

[mailmandan]

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe in/on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

 

[Mjh29]

There is always a debate, and usually heated on once saved always saved and not osas.

To me, the crux of the matter is context of scripture.

A verse, unless containing enough meaning in itself.. does not stand aside from the verses and chapter and book around it.

So when looking at the Bible.. we need to ask..

Who is talking to whom?

What is the subject?

What is the occasion?

And if not covered by occasion... what is the time and place.

So for eg... a verse that gets quoted a lot is

'Where two or three are gathered there I am with them'

So .. a lot of people take this to mean Jesus is specially in the midst of Christians gathered in any setting.... for any purpose.

The context though is resolving sin issues in a local church community setting.

So if there is a sin problem in a brother in your local church and you get another person.. preferably an elder or the pastor.. and meet with them to try and address the sin.. Jesus blesses this process.

That's the real meaning .. with the whole context. It isn't a verse that stands alone.

So it is with verses that are about eternal salvation or daily service.

Usually they get mixed up.. so a verse that's about warning believers of rebuke and discipline, gets put to mean losing eternal life.

Or a verse that IS about receiving eternal life gets put in the daily service box and interpreted having to keep up to keep eternal life.

So with James 2.. 'faith without works is dead'

It just gets taken from its surrounds and left hanging there with no friends of the verses that surround it that give its real context and meaning.

The context has most of the book of James being about what happens after conversion. Mostly not about getting saved.

So with eternal salvation and daily service.. I think it would be good to list the verses that are about initial salvation, and those about daily faith.

I believe that salvation from beginning to end is the total and full work of God and that man can do nothing to save himself unless God gives him the eyes to see and ears to hear (is completely prepared to be verbally executed lol)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Already settled 360, Jesus said the one who endures to the end will be saved. If he is wrong, what hope do we have for salvation anyway? The Bible does not contradict, and interprets itself. So if a person wants to believe that because he believes in Jesus he is saved, so be it, but even the demons believe in God, but where is their salvation?

this is a perfect example of context would help us in our interpretation

In context. Physical life, not eternal life is being spoken of here

He who endures to the end (of that time period. when christ returns) will be saved.

 

[360watt]

this is a perfect example of context would help us in our interpretation

In context. Physical life, not eternal life is being spoken of here

He who endures to the end (of that time period. when christ returns) will be saved.

Yes.. got ask what is being saved from here.

Is it saved as in deliverance from hell.. or deliverance from trials?

 

[360watt]

Already settled 360, Jesus said the one who endures to the end will be saved. If he is wrong, what hope do we have for salvation anyway? The Bible does not contradict, and interprets itself. So if a person wants to believe that because he believes in Jesus he is saved, so be it, but even the demons believe in God, but where is their salvation?

Alot of context missing here, Robert.

The Bible indeed does interpret itself.. but He who endures to the end verse.. the subject isn't receiving eternal life.


Its a different type of 'save'

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes.. got ask what is being saved from here.

Is it saved as in deliverance from hell.. or deliverance from trials?

Deliverance from physical death in the time of tribulation Jesus said they would be in. and delivered to witness the time of his return.

 

[360watt]

I believe that salvation from beginning to end is the total and full work of God and that man can do nothing to save himself unless God gives him the eyes to see and ears to hear (is completely prepared to be verbally executed lol)

Scripture does have the Holy Spirit convicting a sinner of their need for eternal life before they can believe.

Without this conviction..the salvation can't happen..so I can at least agree in part.

 

[Mjh29]

Scripture does have the Holy Spirit convicting a sinner of their need for eternal life before they can believe.

Without this conviction..the salvation can't happen..so I can at least agree in part.

That… was quite unexpected I’ll admit lol. I believe that apart from the conviction of the Spirit, we would NEVER turn to Christ; men apart from regeneration of the Spirit are “DEAD in trespasses and sins.” And Dead men can’t “grab the life preserver” as many say. And interesting analogy to use; a man drowning, seeing as though the procedure for rescuing a man who is drowning is to go behind him and suddenly grab him and drag him to shore - not to forewarn him of anything or give him a chance to say yes or no to rescue; just grab him and drag him to shore; let him thank you for your rescue later.

 

[360watt]

That… was quite unexpected I’ll admit lol. I believe that apart from the conviction of the Spirit, we would NEVER turn to Christ; men apart from regeneration of the Spirit are “DEAD in trespasses and sins.” And Dead men can’t “grab the life preserver” as many say. And interesting analogy to use; a man drowning, seeing as though the procedure for rescuing a man who is drowning is to go behind him and suddenly grab him and drag him to shore - not to forewarn him of anything or give him a chance to say yes or no to rescue; just grab him and drag him to shore; let him thank you for your rescue later.

Well, then the question is.. which is also part of the crux of the matter.. is ..

Is believing on the Lord Jesus Christ-- a work?

I would say no. Because it is initiated by the Holy Spirit who does the drawing and the saving. But I am guessing you would have salvation happening before the person believes on Jesus? And that the drawing the Holy Spirit does.. can't be resisted?

I don't see how that would work with John 3:16, 3:36, 5:24 etc..

Belief under conviction from the Holy Spirit.. then salvation is what scripture shows I thought.

I am not going to say you are not converted BTW.. 1) Because I don't know what God has done with your soul and 2) The impression I get is Calvinists still 'believe on the Lord Jesus Christ'.. they just say they were saved before doing it.

So we might both have believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Mjh29]

Well, then the question is.. which is also part of the crux of the matter.. is ..

Is believing on the Lord Jesus Christ-- a work?

I would say no. Because it is initiated by the Holy Spirit who does the drawing and the saving. But I am guessing you would have salvation happening before the person believes on Jesus? And that the drawing the Holy Spirit does.. can't be resisted?

I don't see how that would work with John 3:16, 3:36, 5:24 etc..

Belief under conviction from the Holy Spirit.. then salvation is what scripture shows I thought.

I am not going to say you are not converted BTW.. 1) Because I don't know what God has done with your soul and 2) The impression I get is Calvinists still 'believe on the Lord Jesus Christ'.. they just say they were saved before doing it.

So we might both have believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Firstly, I would like to thank you for the response!

Believing in Christ is indeed a work - but I believe that it originates with God and His Spirit, not with man and his will. Personally yes, I do believe that the Spirit’s call cannot be resisted; when God calls, it is a call that cannot be resisted by mortal man. But this is due to a change of heart, that’s what a “calling from God” means - that your heart and will is changed.

Personally, I do believe that you have to believe on the Lord Christ before you are saved - God has elected some to be His, but He still choses to operate within time and space; meaning that His plans will be realized at a certain time that He has decided; but until that time comes to pass we are still unregenerate.

Simply put, I also believe in belief due only to the conviction of the Holy Spirit on a person’s heart.

 

[Robert Gwin]

this is a perfect example of context would help us in our interpretation

In context. Physical life, not eternal life is being spoken of here

He who endures to the end (of that time period. when christ returns) will be saved.

Hi E, lots of verses in the Bible dealing with salvation. When we sign on to serve God, we sign on to serve Him eternally, endurance is simply in all Christians vocabulary. Generally when God's word mentions life it is talking about the real life, life eternal. A prime example is found at Mat 16:25

 

[Robert Gwin]

Alot of context missing here, Robert.

The Bible indeed does interpret itself.. but He who endures to the end verse.. the subject isn't receiving eternal life.


Its a different type of 'save'

We believe that part of Jesus' words apply to our time now 360, during these last days. You are quite correct, endurance for most of us to the end of this system is not about being granted everlasting life, rather it would be our deliverance alive into the millennial Kingdom. The other sheep gain life, eternal life at the end of the thousand years. Rev 20:5