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Eternal Security? What's your take?

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Red_Letters88, Jan 7, 2008.

  1. Red_Letters88

    Red_Letters88 New Member

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    (Ek Pyros;34325)
    I disagree. God literally drags people to Christ according to John 6:44. The ones who excercise complete free will are those who reject Christ and God lets go to hell. The Bible makes it clear that man, left to his own free will and devices, chooses darkness over light every time. Man has not perfect intentions without regeneration via Christ's sacrifice and God's election.
    I would agree with this to a certain extent. In certain cases we see God giving someone almost NO other choices but doing his will.My favorite example- JonahBut this is a CONTINUAL fight to stay on this narrow path. It wouldnt be called a struggle if God worked out all the kinks for us. Just as someone can turn from Satan-I feel they can turn from the Lord.But reread my previous post to help understand that last sentence.
     
  2. Ek Pyros

    Ek Pyros New Member

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    (Red_Letters88;34430)
    I would agree with this to a certain extent. In certain cases we see God giving someone almost NO other choices but doing his will.My favorite example- JonahBut this is a CONTINUAL fight to stay on this narrow path. It wouldnt be called a struggle if God worked out all the kinks for us. Just as someone can turn from Satan-I feel they can turn from the Lord.But reread my previous post to help understand that last sentence.
    Turning from God does not equal a loss of salvation. God controls who is saved. If God is not going to cast us out, I highly doubt we can do it on our own.This is one of the best sites I've seen on the matter:http://www.gospeloutreach.net/perseverance...the_saints.html
     
  3. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    We must keep our opinions in check with scripture. Scripture clearly intimates a "once saved, always saved" doctrine. Here's the question: what Christian, truly born-again, saved, Christian would worship a false God?None.So then they would never lose their salvation. Your idea is flawed in the premise that a Christian would (or even could) do such a thing.
    thats an opinion and I dont agree many will follow Antichrist now you can argue whether they were true christains or not but only God will ever know this for sure for the delusion will be so great God must shorten the time or even the very Elect would be fooled so I think scripture has much more support for the fact that many will lose their salvationonce saved always saved is not a sound doctrine. And I would even venture to say a dangerous doctrine a false sense of securitythat can cause one to let their guard down We must always be vigilant. for anyone can be in danger of being cast awayLuk 9:25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
     
  4. SealedEternal

    SealedEternal New Member

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    Scripture clearly teaches that those who have eternal life will never lose it:1 John 5:13These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that YOU MAY KNOW THAT YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE!John 5:24Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears MY word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS ETERNAL LIFE, and does NOT come into judgment, but HAS PASSED OUT OF DEATH into life. John 10:28,29 “...and I give ETERNAL LIFE to them, and they shall NEVER PERISH; and NO ONE shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and NO ONE is able to snatch them out of my Father’s hand.” John 6:37, 39-40 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of ALL that He has given Me I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day. “For this is the will of My Father, that EVERYONE who beholds the Son and believes in Him will HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day. ALL that the Father gives ME shall come to me; and the one who comes to Me I WILL CERTAINLY NOT CAST OUT.”The Bible also says that we will know by our fruits if we have been born of God and thus have eternal life:1 John 5:18 WE KNOW that NO ONE who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. 1 John 2:3-6 By this WE KNOW that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. BY THIS we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked. Matthew 7:16-23 "YOU WILL KNOW them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. "So then, you will know them by their fruits. "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I NEVER KNEW YOU; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'1 John 3:7-10 Little children, MAKE SURE NO ONE DECEIVES YOU; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? DO NOT BE DECEIVED; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such WERE some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.So the only question is how one becomes born of God:Titus 3:5-7 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.Romans 8:2-17 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.Hebrews 10:14-17 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying, "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM," He then says, "AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE." Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God. 2 Corinthians 3:2-3 You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.Romans 6:22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.We WERE born into sin and practiced lawlessness because our father WAS the devil, but If we have been born of God, then His Spirit has cleansed us from our unrighteousness and written His Laws on our hearts and minds through the regeneration of His Spirit. These are the children of God and NO ONE will snatch us out of His hand. Those who attend some religious institution and call Him Lord, Lord, but have not had their hearts regenerated by His Spirit have NEVER KNOWN HIM. They may backslide from their man made religion, but they never had a salvation to lose, because they had not been born of God.SealedEternal
     
  5. Ek Pyros

    Ek Pyros New Member

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    thats an opinion and I dont agree many will follow Antichrist now you can argue whether they were true christains or not but only God will ever know this for sure for the delusion will be so great God must shorten the time or even the very Elect would be fooled so I think scripture has much more support for the fact that many will lose their salvationonce saved always saved is not a sound doctrine. And I would even venture to say a dangerous doctrine a false sense of securitythat can cause one to let their guard down We must always be vigilant. for anyone can be in danger of being cast awayLuk 9:25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
    If you're quoting Luke at me, I'd say you've taken a lot of the Bible out of context. There are scriptures which directly support what I've agrued. As SealedEternal has mentioned, there are a LOT of such scriptures. All you have is an opinion. Try to use your reasoning less and God's word more. I don't mean this offensively, but you and I (should) know that man's reason is flawed compared to the knowledge of God. We have His word; use it.
     
  6. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (Ek Pyros;34482)
    (Kriss;34459)
    thats an opinion and I dont agree many will follow Antichrist now you can argue whether they were true christains or not but only God will ever know this for surefor the delusion will be so great God must shorten the time or even the very Elect would be fooledso I think scripture has much more support for the fact that many will lose their salvationonce saved always saved is not a sound doctrine. And I would even venture to say a dangerous doctrine a false sense of securitythat can cause one to let their guard down We must always be vigilant. for anyone can be in danger of being cast awayLuk 9:25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
    If you're quoting Luke at me, I'd say you've taken a lot of the Bible out of context. There are scriptures which directly support what I've agrued. As SealedEternal has mentioned, there are a LOT of such scriptures. All you have is an opinion. Try to use your reasoning less and God's word more. I don't mean this offensively, but you and I (should) know that man's reason is flawed compared to the knowledge of God. We have His word; use it.And the Devil can also use God's Words to use his own twisted and wicked lie. And he is more wiser than all of us, He will repeatedly put the wisdom of God in vain. Actually scriptures supported Kriss's view to be truthful...Matthew 16:26 - For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?Mark 8:36-37 - For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?Luke 9:25 - For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?THREE times is enough to get that very Truth into the souls that love God so much. For God is not here to gain the whole world, but to preach the Truth that believeth in Him. Only Satan wants to gain the whole world.It is true that you can betray Christ without even realizing it. God wants us to wake up.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
     
  7. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    thanks Jag good postSealed good verses but not one proves that you can not lose your salvetion should you fall awayOn the other hand there are many that warn us that we can lose our salvationshould we fall away
     
  8. Ek Pyros

    Ek Pyros New Member

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    (thesuperjag;34562)
    And the Devil can also use God's Words to use his own twisted and wicked lie. And he is more wiser than all of us, He will repeatedly put the wisdom of God in vain. Actually scriptures supported Kriss's view to be truthful...Matthew 16:26 - For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?Mark 8:36-37 - For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?Luke 9:25 - For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?THREE times is enough to get that very Truth into the souls that love God so much. For God is not here to gain the whole world, but to preach the Truth that believeth in Him. Only Satan wants to gain the whole world.It is true that you can betray Christ without even realizing it. God wants us to wake up.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
    You took each of those verses out of context. Those were not spoken to someone already believing in Christ as a warning against falling away. Seriously, the only real verses you could quote are Hebrews 10. I never once said a person can't lose his soul--most will. But once you and I are saved, we are ETERNALLY saved.
     
  9. DrBubbaLove

    DrBubbaLove New Member

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    Pyros,Peter did the one thing Christ said would get him denied before the Father. Being denied before the Judge does not sound like a good thing. Certainly Peter believed in Christ. Had Peter not turned back to God after that night, are we suggesting what Christ said was a lie?
     
  10. SealedEternal

    SealedEternal New Member

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    (kriss;34577)
    Sealed good verses but not one proves that you can not lose your salvetion should you fall awayOn the other hand there are many that warn us that we can lose our salvationshould we fall away
    No there aren't. There are verses that warn about falling away before one has had their hearts regenerated and sanctified by the Spirit of God, but absolutely none that say a reborn child of God could ever fall away. In fact the scriptures always say that a reborn child of God cannot fall away because the very thing that caused us to rebel against God, which is the wicked heart we inherited from Adam, has been regenerated by God's work in us so that His Laws are written on our hearts and minds and we therefore practice righteousness and do not find His commandments burdensome. You are missing the entire point of the Gospel. If God's Spirit has cleansed us of unrighteousness then we are no longer enslaved to our sin, and therefore because of His Work in us, WE MAY KNOW THAT WE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE because we HAVE PASSED OUT OF DEATH INTO LIFE, so WE SHALL NEVER PERISH and NO ONE SHALL SNATCH US OUT OF HIS HAND.You have to let go of your religious biases and allow God's Word to do the teaching. Scripture is crystal clear that a child of God is His child eternally and cannot be unborn. You wrongly assume that OSAS will cause a person to want to get away with their sin, because you are missing the entire point of the New Covenant. God has saved us from the mire of our sin so that we are a new creation by His Spirit who sanctifies us and reconciles us to Himself through His washing and regenerating of us from within. A true child of God therefore doesn't view sin as something to be desired, and therefore has no interest in trying to get away with it.The scriptures always say that the one who practices sin is a child of the devil and HAVE NEVER KNOWN HIM. It never says they knew Him for a little while until they backslid and lost their salvation, but always says that they were NEVER BORN OF GOD and NEVER KNEW HIM. A true child of God HAS PASSED OUT OF DEATH INTO LIFE because He has solved our fundamental problem, which is our wicked hearts, by His work in us. You are denying all of the verses I posted above along with hundreds more in favor of your Theology and human reasoning because you haven't figured out how all of scripture harmonizes together in its proper context.SealedEternal
     
  11. Jon-Marc

    Jon-Marc New Member

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    Yes, we can KNOW that we have eternal life, and it DOES say ETERNAL--not temporary life until you sin again, which is every day in one way or another. The lost may not know they are lost, but we can KNOW that we are saved--thank God!
     
  12. His By Grace

    His By Grace New Member

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    Great posts, guys! I'm so glad that most everyone has expressed that they believed in eternal security. It makes the cross null and void if we think salvation is based on our performance. What a joke! I can't be good enough or do enough to earn heaven. I am working through my salvation because scripture says it is a faith to faith experience. We begin in faith, by accepting Jesus' death as a covering for the sin debt we owe. He transforms us into a beautiful new creation, and then our faith grows as we spend time with Him day by day. Eventually, we will trust Him so much that our living faith will turn into a dying faith-dying a graceful physically death, knowing Who awaits us on the other side of the door. I received a wonderful explanation of death the other day. It's like a puppy scratching on a door His master has gone through. He's never been through it before but he wants to be in there because that's where his master is. That's how we should be;eagerly awaiting our Savior's face. When we know Him, we trust Him.
     
  13. Ek Pyros

    Ek Pyros New Member

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    (DrBubbaLove;34607)
    Pyros,Peter did the one thing Christ said would get him denied before the Father. Being denied before the Judge does not sound like a good thing. Certainly Peter believed in Christ. Had Peter not turned back to God after that night, are we suggesting what Christ said was a lie?
    Wait a minute, you would be suggesting Christ lied if your way of reading it is fully correct. He did not deny Peter before God, but He clearly said (with none of your added stipulation) that anyone who denied Him before men would be denied before God by Him. You added the whole "Had Peter not turned back."If Peter had been saved and lost it, Hebrews 6 makes it clear he couldn't have somehow regained his salvation. First, I think it's up for debate if he could have been saved as you see it since Christ had yet to be crucified. But here is part of Hebrews 6:
    4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
    Christ hadn't been sacrificed at the time Peter denied Him. But I'm not going to hold much to the idea that Peter wasn't saved before Jesus died...Those verses to which you refer (I'm assuming they're in Mattew 10, 16, Mark 8, and Luke 9) have nothing to do with losing salvation.On Matthew 16 and so on: Jesus starts off by giving criteria for his followers. They must deny themselves, take up their crosses and follow him. He says they must lose their lives. Then he changes the subject and is no longer talking about his followers, but instead: "whoever wishes to save his life" and carry on with sin and denying Christ. He says, "If a man gains everything he desires through sin, but then goes to Hell without it, what good comes?"I hold that Peter never lost his salvation. Luke 22:
    31"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; 32but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."
    He was never 'not-saved'.(When I mentioned Hebrews 10 earlier, I actually meant 6.)
     
  14. forgivenWretch

    forgivenWretch New Member

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    http://www.allaboutgod.com/once-saved-always-saved.htmOnce Saved, Always Saved – The Biblical EvidenceThe Bible teaches “once saved, always saved” -- that we can be saved once and for all only through a repentant, saving faith in Jesus Christ. Once a person has accepted Christ as Savior, they may wonder if it is possible to lose that salvation. What if they commit a sin? What if they commit a lot of sins? What if they do something very, very wrong? Is it possible to be saved, and then lose that salvation? Fortunately, the answer is a resounding “no.” Once a person has accepted Jesus Christ as Savior, he/she is forever saved. This fact is referred to as the doctrine of “eternal security,” often summarized as “once saved, always saved.” There are several reasons why a person can be confident in their “eternal security.” First and foremost is the evidence of Scripture. [url="http://www.allaboutgod.com/truth/john-3.htm]John 3:15-18[/url] says about Christ: “The Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.”The salvation in Christ is not temporary, it is eternal. In John 10:28-30, Jesus says: “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."
     
  15. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (forgivenWretch;35023)
    http://www.allaboutgod.com/once-saved-always-saved.htmOnce Saved, Always Saved – The Biblical EvidenceThe Bible teaches “once saved, always saved” -- that we can be saved once and for all only through a repentant, saving faith in Jesus Christ. Once a person has accepted Christ as Savior, they may wonder if it is possible to lose that salvation. What if they commit a sin? What if they commit a lot of sins? What if they do something very, very wrong? Is it possible to be saved, and then lose that salvation? Fortunately, the answer is a resounding “no.” Once a person has accepted Jesus Christ as Savior, he/she is forever saved. This fact is referred to as the doctrine of “eternal security,” often summarized as “once saved, always saved.” There are several reasons why a person can be confident in their “eternal security.” First and foremost is the evidence of Scripture. [url="http://www.allaboutgod.com/truth/john-3.htm]John 3:15-18[/url] says about Christ: “The Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.”The salvation in Christ is not temporary, it is eternal. In John 10:28-30, Jesus says: “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."
    Once Saved Always Saved is 100% unbiblical.John 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments.I John 2:4 - He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.Matthew 12:50 - For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
     
  16. forgivenWretch

    forgivenWretch New Member

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    (thesuperjag;35035)
    Once Saved Always Saved is 100% unbiblical.John 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments.I John 2:4 - He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.Matthew 12:50 - For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
    What ever you wish to think!
     
  17. forgivenWretch

    forgivenWretch New Member

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    John 3:15-18[url="http://www.allaboutgod.com/prayer-of-salvation.htm]salvation in Christ[/url] is not temporary, it is eternal. [url="http://www.allaboutgod.com/truth/john-10.htm#28]John 10:28-30[/url]
     
  18. DrBubbaLove

    DrBubbaLove New Member

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    (Ek Pyros;34794)
    Wait a minute, you would be suggesting Christ lied if your way of reading it is fully correct. He did not deny Peter before God, but He clearly said (with none of your added stipulation) that anyone who denied Him before men would be denied before God by Him. You added the whole "Had Peter not turned back."If Peter had been saved and lost it, Hebrews 6 makes it clear he couldn't have somehow regained his salvation. First, I think it's up for debate if he could have been saved as you see it since Christ had yet to be crucified. But here is part of Hebrews 6:Christ hadn't been sacrificed at the time Peter denied Him. But I'm not going to hold much to the idea that Peter wasn't saved before Jesus died...Those verses to which you refer (I'm assuming they're in Mattew 10, 16, Mark 8, and Luke 9) have nothing to do with losing salvation.On Matthew 16 and so on: Jesus starts off by giving criteria for his followers. They must deny themselves, take up their crosses and follow him. He says they must lose their lives. Then he changes the subject and is no longer talking about his followers, but instead: "whoever wishes to save his life" and carry on with sin and denying Christ. He says, "If a man gains everything he desires through sin, but then goes to Hell without it, what good comes?"I hold that Peter never lost his salvation. Luke 22:He was never 'not-saved'.(When I mentioned Hebrews 10 earlier, I actually meant 6.)
    Pyros, Thanks.Not sure how you meant my post has Jesus lying. Is it that Jesus does not deny Peter before God (even though Peter denied Jesus before men) as He said He would? That only holds with a view that says once lost one can never restore a relationship with God (which Catholics do not hold). Your correct that my view of that is that Peter turned back from denying God, he restores his relationship with God after committing a very grave sin.Peter was either saved already or not. As people clearly lived and died before Peter and were "saved" in any sense that matters (ie eternally even though they apparently had to "wait" for the Resurrection they are still saved based upon their earthly life), then the question becomes only whether we consider Peter to have a faith at this point in his life that would make him "saved". We appear to agree that he did.Clearly Jesus said if one denies Him before man (which Peter did three times) that Jesus would deny the same before God in judgement. No one is suggesting that Peter did not turn his life around, of course he did. As a Catholic Peter is a Saint and our first Pope, so it would be silly to suggest my post implied Peter is not in fact "saved".My point was not really asking for "proof" that Peter was already "saved" that faithful night or not, as only God can judge a man's heart. Would suggest from what little we know of Peter up to that point, questioning his faith up to that moment would not be something we would do had we been there. We certainly are given nothing to doubt Peter's sincerity in wanting to defend Jesus prior to this point.My point was that people of very strong faith (like Peter) can sin and sin very badly, even to the point that Jesus said he would deny us at our Judgement. Without questioning Peter's real status prior to that event (even if we had reason to we still cannot know his heart) we can merely conclude Peter did something that could (possibly) result in his going to Hell. Obviously Peter recovers from that status.So the idea of security that transcends anything we could do, (security of the believer) is not supported by this story in the Catholic view of "salvation". There is a faith that saves, but in the Catholic view we can still falter so badly (just as Peter did) that we not only loose that faith but also our eternal bliss if we do not repent. It is only by assuming that a person that sins badly must "not have been" saved can we explain the opposing view. Again, how one could know for certain either way is unclear to me. The only thing that could be clear to anyone except the sinner is if the grave sin becomes public knowledge (as Peter's did). Having said all that it should also be understood that Peter's sin, though the act was grave; his denial was not actually the result of a loss of internal faith in Christ, it is the result of fear and cowardice.Am not asking anyone to agree with this view, and certainly acknowledge the eternal security view is supported if one just suggests that Peter did not really believe at that point (and therefore was not "saved"). How we should know this (that Peter lacks faith prior to that point) from scripture is unclear to me. Clearly the passage was meant to be a lesson for us as well as Peter. But if he is not saved, the lesson for us is not very profound or unique, so the story loses much significance for us other than the miracle of prophecy. Clearly sinners need to saved. Saying Peter is just another sinner needing salvation, (as evident by his grave sin that night), is not a unique message to the Gospels. So the story becomes nothing more than a marvel at Jesus ability to foretell the future, which is indeed marvelous, but again not unique to this story about Peter.As the leader of early Christians Peter's example, and his obvious repentance from a very grave sin, is something early Christians looked up to. While this facet of that story is not highlighted in the rest of the NT, it is documented in the early writings of Christians. So at least they understood this story in that light as well. In fact they often contrast Peter's turning his back on God with Judas also doing so. One repents and is restored, the other falls into despair and apparently kills himself.
     
  19. DrBubbaLove

    DrBubbaLove New Member

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    Ek Pyros,BTW I do see the application of Jesus saying "denial" before men (in Matt 10:33) applying not to just what Peter did, but what all non-believers do. However, when these words are spoken it is to His disciples and He is talking about their responsibility to spread the Word. He compares people willing to confess (speak) His Name before men as opposed to those that would deny His Name.A denial in that context sounds verbal, but clearly it means more than just knowing Jesus's name. Peter's denial did go beyond name, as he denies also being "one of them", which is to really "know" Jesus. So while we could extend this warning to apply to ALL those who neither never profess Christianity or publically deny it, that view is not explicit in these verses.
     
  20. Red_Letters88

    Red_Letters88 New Member

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    (thesuperjag;35035)
    Once Saved Always Saved is 100% unbiblical.John 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments.I John 2:4 - He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.Matthew 12:50 - For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
    Jag, Im not one to change my mind quickly, or accept new ideas that are shady....But you just gave me what Ive been trying to find. I still think if one truly finds the Lord, Why would he ever want to turn.Thanks for your input, its settled so much in me on this subject.
     
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