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Eternal Security

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by RichardBurger, Jan 11, 2009.

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  1. Letsgofishing

    Letsgofishing New Member

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    That is a downright lie. I never said what you have indicated. What I have said is that God keeps His children by His own power, not theirs. They will not lose their faith in God. They will not stop believing. They will not lose their trust in God. They will not lose their confidence in Him. --- So your saying I have said we can do all the things you indicated in your reply is not true and I think you owe me an apology.Richard
    You know Richard that's funny, because I know Christians, Christians who were my greatest friends, who have lost their faith in God, who have stopped believing, who have lost their trust in God, and who have lost their confidence in him.So please don't tell me that christians can't fall away, because I know its not true. Please don't think I'm trying to trample beliefs you shape your whole life around just for my entertainmentI go against them, "because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour" ( 1 peter 5:8)I love you too much too see you fall.your brother in christRyan Fitz
     
  2. excepttruth

    excepttruth New Member

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    2 Peter 1:5-11 5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith(A) with virtue,[a] and virtue([​IMG] with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control© with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness(D) with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection(E) with love. 8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or(F) unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he(G) is blind, having forgotten that he was(H) cleansed from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brothers,[c] be all the more diligent to make your calling and(I) election sure, for if you practice these qualities(J) you will never fall. 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you(K) an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. So the question is. What if we do not make an effort to add to our faith? Why did Peter tell us to make the effort? Peter is telling us we must press forward so that we will make are calling and election sure. For if we do not we are not sured the welcome into the eternal kingdom.
     
  3. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    Oh come on you know I wasnt serious but you refuse to see the reality of this doctrine......... what do you think OSAS is Richard?? Thats the doctrine you preaching even if unintentional .... Your defense is we have no free will to chose ?? ...sense when?? God doesnt force us to do anything I can do whatever I want should I chose tooNow I admit that my post was a little dramtic over the top ... but thats exactly what you are claiming with this doctrine isnt nessary for the strong of faith and gives the weak of faith an excuse ...You claim All that say Lord Lord are OSAS ......God says the oppisiteGod says the WHOLE WORLD will follow antichrist thinking he is christ yet you ..say they cant God wont let them ...God says he will .. you say we are to do nothing God does everything for us .....God says blessed is he that overcomes (imply it is us that must overcome) Are we to believe you or God ?? You are taking verse's met for the Elect or that are out of context and using them to come-up with a doctrine that isnt written that misleads ...Makes people think they must be right in what ever they do or whatever choices they make ... or God would somehow magically will stop them ..but God says .. I will allow a great delusion upon the World ... So left with a choice between what you say and God says I'll take God ..sorry OSaS is not a real doctrinePS If I offened you I apoligize ...I was trying to show you the obsurity of this doctrine, but its not a lie that is what OSAS implys
    In the future please do not try and tell others what I believe. I can do that myself.1 John 4:4-64 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.5 They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. NKJVVerse 4 re-written for Christina: 4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them --- as long as you can control your faith---, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world --- but you must rely on yourself to continue to have faith and overcome. ---John 4:10-54 Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." 11 The woman said to Him, "Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where then do You get that living water?12 Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock?" 13 Jesus answered and said to her, "Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again,14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life." NKJVAccording to Christina the living water, although given by Jesus, can be turned off by the person receiving it. Seems to me that if that is true then it did not produce everlasting life, right Christina? It is just temporary.Richard
     
  4. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    You know Richard that's funny, because I know Christians, Christians who were my greatest friends, who have lost their faith in God, who have stopped believing, who have lost their trust in God, and who have lost their confidence in him.So please don't tell me that christians can't fall away, because I know its not true. Please don't think I'm trying to trample beliefs you shape your whole life around just for my entertainmentI go against them, "because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour" ( 1 peter 5:8)I love you too much too see you fall.your brother in christRyan Fitz
    Why do you think I will fall? Is it because I believe God has the power to keep His children and you don't?If Christains no longer have faith in God then there is a question, was there faith in the beginning? If Christains had faith, then seemed to lose it, and now have faith again then it proves God keeps His children.Your scripture is correct, however, other scripture teach me that I already have the victory over the Devil, in Christ. But many so called Christians do not want others to believe it.Richard
     
  5. Alpha and Omega

    Alpha and Omega New Member

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    I essentially agree with once saved always saved. However not necessarily with the way you tell it.(RichardBurger;67515)
    Others believe you cannot know if you are truly saved until the end (death). This is also an inadequate view of what salvation is and how it is received. The subject of knowing now that you are saved is really called the assurance of salvation. The assurance (security) of salvation will be clear if we understand the following points.
    I wish the person who wrote this really expanded on this thought. Not just claimed something and didn't back it up with anything. Like you said we are saved by the grace of God through our faith. God knows our hearts however we do not know his. Essentially it is God's choice if one receives eternal life or not. John 16:8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:John 16:11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. ( I thought there was another verse on Satan already being judged. I cannot locate it so if anyone would be as so kind to look it up for me.)Satan is the only one to have been judged. We have not been saved/judged yet. Revelation 20:12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.We haven't been judged yet. Once a person is judged and they receive eternal life by the grace of God...then yes I would have to agree that person is saved and always will be.(RichardBurger;67515)
    Salvation is an event, not a process. Salvation takes place in an instant of time (the moment that a person trusts Christ as Savior)
    Remember you said we are saved by the grace of God. Not the moment that a person trusts Christ as savior.(RichardBurger;67515)
    For the believer, death and judgment are past. Our sins are gone, just as if we had died (which we did in Christ), and that everlasting penalty has been paid for us. When the Bible says that our sins are forgiven and remitted, it is on the basis of this truth: the substitutionary death of Christ.
    Death and judgment are not past if one still lives. The fact remains no one has been judged yet.Hebrew 9:27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:(RichardBurger;67515)
    THE BELIEVER AND SINBut what about when the believer sins? When a believer does sin, it is an issue between him and God his Father. It is a family issue; it involves service not salvation. Salvation is complete and secure. From that time the Christian life is a matter of an eternal loving relationship with the Father (of growth and tender care of grace and, yes, even discipline) "until the redemption of the purchased possession..." Will we have to answer for sins committed as believers? Yes. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5:10 that we must answer for the things done in the body whether they be good or bad. But this involves rewards and loss of rewards, not salvation. We refer the reader to chapter 10, The Believer's Walk, for a further discussion of the believer and sin.(SNIP)
    No where in that verse is Paul talking about rewards or loss thereof. Salvation is not complete and secure until God gives us the gift of eternal life. Until that time it is unknown and if we are so fortunate to receive the gift of eternal life then yes we are saved and saved forever.
     
  6. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    I essentially agree with once saved always saved. However not necessarily with the way you tell it.I wish the person who wrote this really expanded on this thought. Not just claimed something and didn't back it up with anything. Like you said we are saved by the grace of God through our faith. God knows our hearts however we do not know his. Essentially it is God's choice if one receives eternal life or not. John 16:8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:John 16:11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. ( I thought there was another verse on Satan already being judged. I cannot locate it so if anyone would be as so kind to look it up for me.)Satan is the only one to have been judged. We have not been saved/judged yet. Revelation 20:12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.We haven't been judged yet. Once a person is judged and they receive eternal life by the grace of God...then yes I would have to agree that person is saved and always will be.Remember you said we are saved by the grace of God. Not the moment that a person trusts Christ as savior.Death and judgment are not past if one still lives. The fact remains no one has been judged yet.Hebrew 9:27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:No where in that verse is Paul talking about rewards or loss thereof. Salvation is not complete and secure until God gives us the gift of eternal life. Until that time it is unknown and if we are so fortunate to receive the gift of eternal life then yes we are saved and saved forever.
    I disagree with your premise that we have not been judged. We are already righteous in Christ and their is no condemnation for us who are "in Christ" John 3:16-18Gal 3:1-93 Oh, foolish Galatians! Who has cast an evil spell on you? For the meaning of Jesus Christ's death was made as clear to you as if you had seen a picture of his death on the cross.2 Let me ask you this one question: Did you receive the Holy Spirit by obeying the law of Moses? Of course not! You received the Spirit because you believed the message you heard about Christ.3 How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?4 Have you experienced so much for nothing? Surely it was not in vain, was it?5 I ask you again, does God give you the Holy Spirit and work miracles among you because you obey the law? Of course not! It is because you believe the message you heard about Christ.6 In the same way, "Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith."7 The real children of Abraham, then, are those who put their faith in God.8 What's more, the Scriptures looked forward to this time when God would declare the Gentiles to be righteous because of their faith. God proclaimed this good news to Abraham long ago when he said, "All nations will be blessed through you."9 So all who put their faith in Christ share the same blessing Abraham received because of his faith.2 Cor 1:21-2221 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God,22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. NKJVEph 1:13-1413 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. NKJVI do not believe in progressive salvation.Richard
     
  7. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    RichardWe have not been judged, not been sealed, all we have is a promise he will never leave us not forsake us ...But we can leave and forsake him your doctrine is a man made lie. There is only one judgement day and it has not occured yetNo one is judged except Satan until the White throne judgement at the End of the millenium ..but you keep lying to your self if you it makes you feel better ... And I was telling people what your doctrine means ...You can deny it but its true. Funny you can accuse us but how dare we say what your doctrine really is??Without all the holy sounding words you add ..My example may have been over the top but take out your words and that's exactly what is You just don't like the sound of it when you take away the bells and whistles ....
     
  8. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    RichardWe have not been judged, not been sealed, all we have is a promise he will never leave us not forsake us ...But we can leave and forsake him your doctrine is a man made lie. There is only one judgement day and it has not occured yetNo one is judged except Satan until the White throne judgement at the End of the millenium ..but you keep lying to your self if you it makes you feel better ... And I was telling people what your doctrine means ...You can deny it but its true. Funny you can accuse us but how dare we say what your doctrine really is??Without all the holy sounding words you add ..My example may have been over the top but take out your words and that's exactly what is You just don't like the sound of it when you take away the bells and whistles ....
    So you say we have not been sealed. That is a direct contradiction to the word of God.2 Cor 1:20-2220 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us.21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God,22 who also ***has*** sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. NKJVSorry but I just can't seem to believe what you say and the above is just one of the reasons. There are many more.Richard
     
  9. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    The many more:Rom 8:35-3935 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?36 As it is written:"For Your sake we are killed all day long;We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter." 37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. NKJV2 Tim 1:8-128 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God,9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day. NKJVAnd many try to fault me because I also am fully persuaded.1 Peter 1:3-25 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. NKJV1 Cor 15:56-5856 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord. NKJV1 John 5:4-54 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world — our faith.5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? NKJV
     
  10. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (Christina;67720)
    RichardWe have not been judged, not been sealed, all we have is a promise he will never leave us not forsake us ...But we can leave and forsake him your doctrine is a man made lie. There is only one judgement day and it has not occured yetNo one is judged except Satan until the White throne judgement at the End of the millenium ..but you keep lying to your self if you it makes you feel better ... And I was telling people what your doctrine means ...You can deny it but its true. Funny you can accuse us but how dare we say what your doctrine really is??Without all the holy sounding words you add ..My example may have been over the top but take out your words and that's exactly what is You just don't like the sound of it when you take away the bells and whistles ....
    So you say we have not been sealed. That is a direct contradiction to the word of God.2 Cor 1:20-2220 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us.21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God,22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. NKJVSorry but I just can't seem to believe what you say and the above is just one of the reasons. There are many more.RichardI think you should go to a milk site. You will be more comfortable there w/ people believing in this cockypot doctrine of men! Everybody seem to knows that your fruit is not of Christ... Get this evil doctrine out of here. You ignored pretty much at least ½ of the NT message. Sad to say, but it's true.
     
  11. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Well I admit thats was my mistake Richard I didnt clarify that very well we are sealed but not permantly yet we have a deposit on our promise ...We can stil chose to leave him 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’sNow why dont you tell us when we were judged..(quote)Sorry but I just can't seem to believe what you say and the above is just one of the reasons. There are many moreDitto !!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  12. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Revelation 7:2 "And I saw another angel ascending from the east [sun rising], having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea."The angel from the east is the angel from God. You have heard of the Seal, or the "Mark of the Beast"; well, this angel is bringing the seal, or "mark of God." This seal from the angel is "Knowledge". It is sealed, or stored in your mind, which is in your forehead. No physical part of this earth, or oceans will be hurt. The subject here is the sealing of God's elect; placing knowledge of everything that is to happen in the minds of God's elect and all those overcomers, so there will be no mystery in these events to them. When we know exactly what is to take place, Satan will not be inviting; for upon his arrival, we will know him for the cheap imitation he is, in relation to our Lord Jesus Christ. Revelation 7:3 "Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."Notice it is not done yet Revelation 7:4 "And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Is'-ra-el." This seal has nothing to do with going to heaven; but it is the full knowledge of How to stand against the wiles of Satan the Antichrist. This has to take place before the "son of perdition" [Satan] sets his feet on this earth as the Antichrist. You will know how to identify Satan, from the true Christ, or you will be deceived by the Antichrist and become part of his system. Satan is that good, and the Word of God declares it before the fact.
     
  13. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    Revelation 7:2 "And I saw another angel ascending from the east [sun rising], having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea."The angel from the east is the angel from God. You have heard of the Seal, or the "Mark of the Beast"; well, this angel is bringing the seal, or "mark of God." This seal from the angel is "Knowledge". It is sealed, or stored in your mind, which is in your forehead. No physical part of this earth, or oceans will be hurt. The subject here is the sealing of God's elect; placing knowledge of everything that is to happen in the minds of God's elect and all those overcomers, so there will be no mystery in these events to them. When we know exactly what is to take place, Satan will not be inviting; for upon his arrival, we will know him for the cheap imitation he is, in relation to our Lord Jesus Christ. Revelation 7:3 "Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."Notice it is not done yet Revelation 7:4 "And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Is'-ra-el." This seal has nothing to do with going to heaven; but it is the full knowledge of How to stand against the wiles of Satan the Antichrist. This has to take place before the "son of perdition" [Satan] sets his feet on this earth as the Antichrist. You will know how to identify Satan, from the true Christ, or you will be deceived by the Antichrist and become part of his system. Satan is that good, and the Word of God declares it before the fact.
    I do not agree with you. If we are not sealed, PERMANENTLY, then that would indicate God's seal is not very strong.We seem to have another disagreement. I believe in the rapture of those saved under grace and have been made His (God's) children by God. God's wrath will not be poured out on His children. Obviously you don't believe as I do. The children of God "in Christ" have already been judged in Christ and are righteous before God. He is our righteousness. There can be no judgement for those that are already righteous.Richard
     
  14. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    Revelation 7:2 "And I saw another angel ascending from the east [sun rising], having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea."The angel from the east is the angel from God. You have heard of the Seal, or the "Mark of the Beast"; well, this angel is bringing the seal, or "mark of God." This seal from the angel is "Knowledge". It is sealed, or stored in your mind, which is in your forehead. No physical part of this earth, or oceans will be hurt. The subject here is the sealing of God's elect; placing knowledge of everything that is to happen in the minds of God's elect and all those overcomers, so there will be no mystery in these events to them. When we know exactly what is to take place, Satan will not be inviting; for upon his arrival, we will know him for the cheap imitation he is, in relation to our Lord Jesus Christ. Revelation 7:3 "Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."Notice it is not done yet Revelation 7:4 "And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Is'-ra-el." This seal has nothing to do with going to heaven; but it is the full knowledge of How to stand against the wiles of Satan the Antichrist. This has to take place before the "son of perdition" [Satan] sets his feet on this earth as the Antichrist. You will know how to identify Satan, from the true Christ, or you will be deceived by the Antichrist and become part of his system. Satan is that good, and the Word of God declares it before the fact.
    During the tribulations God turns His attention back to the Jews since those saved under grace are no longer here. Therefore your Rev. scriptures do not apply to the children of God saved under grace. But I am sure you don't believe that.Rom 5:6-116 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die.8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. NKJVRichard
     
  15. tomwebster

    tomwebster New Member

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    ...We seem to have another disagreement. I believe in the rapture of those saved under grace ....Richard
    We will disagree here also Rich. But the rapture has been talked about many times on this forum. Type "rapture" into the "search" box above and you can read all about it, I'm not going to rehash it.
     
  16. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    I do not agree with you. If we are not sealed, PERMANENTLY, then that would indicate God's seal is not very strong.We seem to have another disagreement. I believe in the rapture of those saved under grace and have been made His (God's) children by God. God's wrath will not be poured out on His children. Obviously you don't believe as I do. The children of God "in Christ" have already been judged in Christ and are righteous before God. He is our righteousness. There can be no judgement for those that are already righteous.Richard
    And you are confused do to your doctrine of men And if you believe in a Pre trib Rapture that isnt written you will be lost anyway another whimp doctrine of men that God never promises ... Its called a theroy because thats what it is ... Boy between your thinking God is going magically stop you from doing wrong and your magic fly away doctrine ... You are in trouble And you are wrong I dont believe Gods wrath is poured out on Gods children and he told us in Passover how he would save us with the Lambs blood on the door post the Angel of death will passover us ...this is our test tribulation we must overcome to make it to the End, to become the first resurrectedHe is our lamb and his blood will protect us but then that requires true faith to believe not some mans fly away doctrine ...God never says he is flying anyone anyywhere ..and tell me Richard sense flesh and blood can not enter heaven... and Satan is prince of the air where pray tell do you think you are flying away to ??????????
     
  17. Letsgofishing

    Letsgofishing New Member

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    Hey I just remembered, I found this letter, a couple months back when looking up this subject, and I thought it would be a great thing to post.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you for the letter you faxed to me in response to my letter. I am reading your book slowly and carefully. There is a great deal to think about as I read. Before reading your book I thought there was nothing more for me to learn on the subject of OSAS [once saved always saved]. I used to belong to an Independent Baptist Church that preached the truth of OSAS. I once accepted this false teaching as truth. It was not until I heard a traveling evangelist teach that OSAS is a false doctrine that I even began to think about the subject. After hearing this man’s message I felt an intense urgency to know the truth about OSAS. I had such a strong desire to know the truth that I became almost obsessed with my need to know with certainty whether or not OSAS was true. I wouldn’t be satisfied with anything less than 100% confidence that this doctrine was either true or false. I decided to begin my study by reading every word of the Bible from beginning to end and taking notes on any verse that seemed to be even remotely related to the subject. After doing this I decided I should read some of the OSAS books to see if they had any insights that would be helpful. My study lasted for about 3 years. My study lasted this long because I could not be satisfied until I was absolutely certain about the truth of this doctrine. I have to admit that I desperately wanted OSAS to be true. My mind was totally biased in favor of OSAS. However, I never allowed my biases to stop me from honestly evaluating what the Bible taught on this subject. What I found was astounding. The Bible constantly used words like “IF.” I was unable to find even one shred of evidence that OSAS was true. Almost as amazing was the way the OSAS teachers distorted Bible passages to fit into the OSAS teaching. I found their distortions so unfounded and false that I could not even begin to comprehend how they could interpret passages the way they did. The answers to my prayers and the end of my mental torment came in a single day. I don’t know if it was God opening my eyes or a result of my study but after 3 years of study and agonizing uncertainty on this subject all of my false ideas about OSAS were swept away. I became absolutely certain that according to the teachings of Jesus and all of the apostles, OSAS was absolutely and totally false. I no longer had even the slightest doubt that it was completely false. As I began to talk to people who believed in OSAS I began to realize that none of them have even given the subject any real thought. Their ideas and explanations are shallow and without thought. I once asked a Baptist who had a position of authority this question: If a person is saved but then two years later they 1. Reject Jesus Christ 2. Become a Satan worshipper 3. Commit sins worse than Adolph Hitler 4. Live this way for the next 50 years 5. They go to their grave blaspheming God and declaring their hatred for Him and also declare their love and loyalty to Satan. I asked if they thought this hypothetical person was still saved and their answer was yes they are still saved. I knew then that the OSAS teachers have rejected all aspects of Biblical thinking. The Baptist Church I belonged to took a vote and I was unanimously voted out of fellowship for the heretical belief that a Christian can fall away and be eternally lost. I am at the point now where I find the OSAS teaching so repulsive that I cannot even listen to an OSAS teacher no matter what they are talking about. Everything they say is tainted by their OSAS doctrine. Additionally, because they do not believe the Christian is in a real battle, they are more like game show hosts who are trying to keep their audience entertained and interested in their show. Without the realization that we are in a real battle for our souls there is no incentive to take the Christian life seriously. Because no matter what they do they think in the end they’ll be in heaven. This deception greatly troubles me. Sin is more deadly and more deceptive then most Christians even begin to understand. Sin deludes our thinking. Sin can make us imagine that we really aren’t straying that far from Jesus. To me this is the most dangerous aspect of OSAS. If we do not think we can fall away then our fear of sin will be greatly diminished. Once our fear of sin is diminished we can be easily led down a path that takes us further and further away from God. Sin will keep us from seeing how far off the path we have gone. We will of course be aware of the fact we have gotten off the path but we will not be afraid because we think we can’t lose our salvation. Sin will delude us into thinking that we have only strayed a little when in fact we are being systematically led further and further away from God and the truth. This deadly two punch combination of (1) No fear of falling away to our eternal destruction; and (2) The deceptive power of sin leading us further and further away from God will lead us so far away from God and harden our hearts so much that eventually we have very little chance of ever repenting and getting back on the narrow road that leads to eternal life. We will have rejected Jesus Christ and the gospel and yet continue to think we are still Christians on our way to heaven. All of this makes me very sad. People that I know who honestly love God and sincerely want to follow Jesus have been disarmed by this false teaching. They don’t know there is a real battle going on. Without knowing there is a real battle going on it makes Satan’s job 1000 times easier. At some point in their life sin may tempt them. When this happens it will be so much easier for them to succumb to it. Many Christians sincerely desire to live a Godly life. However, we also live in the flesh so will always face temptation. Understanding the dangers of allowing sin to come into our life is essential to keeping the flesh under control. When we do not fear sin the Holy Spirit is unable to convict us of sin and the need to repent. At a weak moment in our life sin can grab us and slowly lead us further and further away from God. Sadly, we probably won’t even know that this is happening because we have shut down the Holy Spirit’s ability to convict us of our sin and the need to repent and get back on the right path. Thank you again for your book and your encouragement. I am learning a great deal from your book. I did not think there was anyone who understood this subject better than I do. But I am glad that God led me to you. You have taken my understanding of OSAS to a new level. I am gaining so many new insights about OSAS from your book. I also feel like I am not alone. It is a blessing to know there are others who understand this vital truth. Thank you so much for everything you are doing. You have been a great blessing to me. Sincerely, Jeff S. [url="http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/jeff.htm]www.evangelicaloutreach.org/jeff.htm[/url]
     
  18. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    great article LGF I spaced it to make it alittle easier to read hope you dont mind ....
     
  19. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    great article LGF I spaced it to make it alittle easier to read hope you dont mind ....
    Yes it was a great article. It just makes me sad to here so many Christians to careless of what God is saying is because they allow themselves to be disarmed by men.
     
  20. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    Well if you believe in a Pre trib Rapture that isnt written you will be lost anyway And you are wrong I dont believe Gods wrath is poured out on Gods children and he told us in Passover how he would save us with the Lambs blood on the door post the Angel of death will passover us ...this is our test tribulation we must overcome to make it to the Endto become the first resurrectedHe is our lamb and his blood will protect us but then that requires true faith to believe not some mans fly away doctrine ...God never says he is flying anyone anyywhere ..and tell me Richard sense flesh and blood can not enter heaven... and Satan is prince of the air where pray tell do you think you are flying away to ??????????
    The flesh body of a child of God will be changed as recorded in the following:1 Thess 4:13-1813 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. NKJV1 Cor 15:50-5850 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed — 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.There is no coralation between the last trump mentioned here and the seven trumpets in Rev.53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 55 "O Death, where is your sting? 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.NKJVRichard
     
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