Eternal Security

[tomwebster]

(RichardBurger;67748)
...1 Cor 15:50-5850 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed — 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.There is no coralation between the last trump mentioned here and the seven trumpets in Rev....
So there is more than one LAST trump?

You gotta be kidding me! Rich, if you want to discuss the rapture take it to another forum, not here. Read the many rapture arguments we have on this forum all ready.

 

[RichardBurger]

My interpretation of 1 Cor. 15:20-2820 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.*** No one had been resurrected into new bodies that will not die until Christ. He is the firstfruit.21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.*** Indeed, "All men shall be resurrected from the dead (made alive)." The use of the word "all" is inclusive and means all. In John 5:27-29 below we see again that “all” men will be resurrected.23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.*** NOTE, NOTE; The statement "But each one in his own order" indicates that there is a set order (time) for each event. It is also important to notice the words "those who are Christ's at His coming." There is no mention of those who are not Christ's because they will not be resurrected at His coming. This is important and must not be overlooked. --- It should also be noted that between verse 23 and 24 there will be an earthly kingdom rule of Christ for a thousand years.24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.(NKJ)*** During the 1000 year rule of Christ (verse 25) there will be people who are still in the flesh living on the earth and Christ will rule over them. These people can still die (their first death). It should be noticed that those who died ""without"" Christ have not been resurrected because it is not yet their time. At the end of Christ's rule on earth all the remaining dead will be resurrected and death of the flesh will be destroyed. But not the "Second Death." Flesh bodies will no longer exist. Only resurrected bodies that do not die will exist. In the statement "The last enemy that will be destroyed is death" THERE IS NO MENTION OF "THE SECOND DEATH." At this time there will be the "Great White Throne Judgment." All names that are NOT found written in the "Book of Life" will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, which is "THE SECOND DEATH." (see John 5:27-29 and Revelations 20:12-15 below). If death and the second death are the same death then why call it by another name?This is how I see it.Richard

 

[Christina]

(RichardBurger;67748)
The flesh body of a child of God will be changed as recorded in the following:1 Thess 4:13-1813 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. NKJV1 Cor 15:50-5850 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed — 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.There is no coralation between the last trump mentioned here and the seven trumpets in Rev.53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 55 "O Death, where is your sting? 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.NKJVRichard
You cant just see what you chose Richard espically when it flies in the face of other scripture None of those verse's claim what you say its the.. WHEN .. LAST trump that is the 7th. Isnt that amazing that for you to even use this as your proof you have to first tell a lie that the last trump and the 7th are not the same ..Lies and proganda and you have nothing to prove this except the lies of men Christ returns once at the 7th AND LAST TRUMP ......where does God say differnt another doctrine of menthe littlest amount of examination will prove that 1 Thess is the absolute worst proof of Rapture ..even die hard Rapture theorists quit using it because a child could debunk it .. Its real difficult read 2 Thess.... hard I know but hey give it a try .... of course I forget you like to ignore any scripture proving you are wrong .... First of all the subject is where are the dead in 1 Thess...why is that the subject because the Church a Thess was barely 3 weeks old made up of Jew and gentile a rumor had surfaced that Christ had returned ... and the dead being raised first ... (at the 7th trump like its written ) they were concerned as where their loved ones were ...and when they would meet the Lord ...Timothy upon learning this quickly reports this false rumor to Paul who quickly replies in 2 thess to set the record straight ... correcting their error so your rapture theroy is based on an error by a 3 week old church that was quickley corrected in 2 Thess. And 1Cor 15 happens at Christ return ...after yes that's after the tribulation and that man of sin who is ant christ (Satan)Your interpretation means nothing its Gods that mattershttp://www.christianityboard.com/history-t...onia-t7211.html

 

[Jordan]

(RichardBurger;67750)
My interpretation of 1 Cor. 15:20-2820 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.*** No one had been resurrected into new bodies that will not die until Christ. He is the firstfruit.21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.*** Indeed, "All men shall be resurrected from the dead (made alive)." The use of the word "all" is inclusive and means all. In John 5:27-29 below we see again that “all” men will be resurrected.23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.*** NOTE, NOTE; The statement "But each one in his own order" indicates that there is a set order (time) for each event. It is also important to notice the words "those who are Christ's at His coming." There is no mention of those who are not Christ's because they will not be resurrected at His coming. This is important and must not be overlooked. --- It should also be noted that between verse 23 and 24 there will be an earthly kingdom rule of Christ for a thousand years.24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.(NKJ)*** During the 1000 year rule of Christ (verse 25) there will be people who are still in the flesh living on the earth and Christ will rule over them. These people can still die (their first death). It should be noticed that those who died ""without"" Christ have not been resurrected because it is not yet their time. At the end of Christ's rule on earth all the remaining dead will be resurrected and death of the flesh will be destroyed. But not the "Second Death." Flesh bodies will no longer exist. Only resurrected bodies that do not die will exist. In the statement "The last enemy that will be destroyed is death" THERE IS NO MENTION OF "THE SECOND DEATH." At this time there will be the "Great White Throne Judgment." All names that are NOT found written in the "Book of Life" will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, which is "THE SECOND DEATH." (see John 5:27-29 and Revelations 20:12-15 below). If death and the second death are the same death then why call it by another name?This is how I see it.Richard
Whatever Richard. You won't be able to fool any of God's children that truly loves our Father.Ezekiel 13:20 - Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.Romans 1:25 - Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

 

[RichardBurger]

(tomwebster;67749)
So there is more than one LAST trump? deletedYou gotta be kidding me! deletedRich, if you want to discuss the rapture take it to another forum, not here. Read the many rapture arguments we have on this forum all ready.
The posts have led to this. You don't know much about Jewish weddings do you. There are several trumpets; 1. to announce the engagement, one to announce the dowery paid. and a last trump to announce the bridgroom has come for his wife. That is the last trump.But of course, since I said it it just has to be a lie.

IMHO I don't think I have been on any forum and found so many that seem to be vindictive, antagonistic, and arrogant as I have found on this forum. Boy am I having fun!!!!Richard

 

[RichardBurger]

(Christina;67753)
Are you delirious none of those verse's claim what you say its the WHEN are you blind the LAST trump that is the 7th. Isnt that amazing that for you to even use this as your proof you have to first tell a lie that the last trump and the 7th are not the same ..Lies and proganda and you have nothing to prove this except the lies of men Christ returns once at the 7th AND LAST TRUMP ......where does God says differnt .Doctrine of menthe littlest amount of examination will prove that 1 Thess is the absolute worst proof of Rapture ..even die hard Rapture theorists quit using it because a child could debunk it Its real difficult read 2 Thess. hard I know but hey give it a try .... of course I forget you ignore any scripture proving you are wrong .... First of all the subject is where are the dead in 1 Thess...why is that the subject because the Church a Thess was barely 3 weeks old made up of Jew and gentile a rumor had surfaced that Christ had returned ... and the dead being raised first they were asking where their loved ones were and when they would meet the Lord ...Timothy upon learning this quickly reports this fallacy ... In which the answer came back in 2 Thess correcting their error so your rapture theroy is based on an error by a 3 week old church that was quickley corrected in 2 Thess. And Cor 15 happens at Christ return ...after yes that's after the tribulation and that man of sin who is ant christ (Satan)Your interpretation on anything has your credibility in question do you read Gods Words or just the scripture you can twist to make your own doctrine?http://www.christianityboard.com/history-t...onia-t7211.html
Sorry you feel that way but what you have said does not make me wrong. I did say that there is a set order that the dead will bev ressurected didn't I? The scripture tells us that there is.Where are the death? I have an article written about that but you won't believe it either. As for the last trump see my reply to Tom below.Richard

 

[RichardBurger]

(Letsgofishing;67738)
Hey I just remembered, I found this letter, a couple months back when looking up this subject, and I thought it would be a great thing to post.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you for the letter you faxed to me in response to my letter. I am reading your book slowly and carefully. There is a great deal to think about as I read. Before reading your book I thought there was nothing more for me to learn on the subject of OSAS [once saved always saved]. I used to belong to an Independent Baptist Church that preached the truth of OSAS. I once accepted this false teaching as truth. It was not until I heard a traveling evangelist teach that OSAS is a false doctrine that I even began to think about the subject. After hearing this man’s message I felt an intense urgency to know the truth about OSAS. I had such a strong desire to know the truth that I became almost obsessed with my need to know with certainty whether or not OSAS was true. I wouldn’t be satisfied with anything less than 100% confidence that this doctrine was either true or false. I decided to begin my study by reading every word of the Bible from beginning to end and taking notes on any verse that seemed to be even remotely related to the subject. After doing this I decided I should read some of the OSAS books to see if they had any insights that would be helpful. My study lasted for about 3 years. My study lasted this long because I could not be satisfied until I was absolutely certain about the truth of this doctrine. I have to admit that I desperately wanted OSAS to be true. My mind was totally biased in favor of OSAS. However, I never allowed my biases to stop me from honestly evaluating what the Bible taught on this subject. What I found was astounding. The Bible constantly used words like “IF.” I was unable to find even one shred of evidence that OSAS was true. Almost as amazing was the way the OSAS teachers distorted Bible passages to fit into the OSAS teaching. I found their distortions so unfounded and false that I could not even begin to comprehend how they could interpret passages the way they did. The answers to my prayers and the end of my mental torment came in a single day. I don’t know if it was God opening my eyes or a result of my study but after 3 years of study and agonizing uncertainty on this subject all of my false ideas about OSAS were swept away. I became absolutely certain that according to the teachings of Jesus and all of the apostles, OSAS was absolutely and totally false. I no longer had even the slightest doubt that it was completely false. As I began to talk to people who believed in OSAS I began to realize that none of them have even given the subject any real thought. Their ideas and explanations are shallow and without thought. I once asked a Baptist who had a position of authority this question: If a person is saved but then two years later they 1. Reject Jesus Christ 2. Become a Satan worshipper 3. Commit sins worse than Adolph Hitler 4. Live this way for the next 50 years 5. They go to their grave blaspheming God and declaring their hatred for Him and also declare their love and loyalty to Satan. I asked if they thought this hypothetical person was still saved and their answer was yes they are still saved. I knew then that the OSAS teachers have rejected all aspects of Biblical thinking. The Baptist Church I belonged to took a vote and I was unanimously voted out of fellowship for the heretical belief that a Christian can fall away and be eternally lost. I am at the point now where I find the OSAS teaching so repulsive that I cannot even listen to an OSAS teacher no matter what they are talking about. Everything they say is tainted by their OSAS doctrine. Additionally, because they do not believe the Christian is in a real battle, they are more like game show hosts who are trying to keep their audience entertained and interested in their show. Without the realization that we are in a real battle for our souls there is no incentive to take the Christian life seriously. Because no matter what they do they think in the end they’ll be in heaven. This deception greatly troubles me. Sin is more deadly and more deceptive then most Christians even begin to understand. Sin deludes our thinking. Sin can make us imagine that we really aren’t straying that far from Jesus. To me this is the most dangerous aspect of OSAS. If we do not think we can fall away then our fear of sin will be greatly diminished. Once our fear of sin is diminished we can be easily led down a path that takes us further and further away from God. Sin will keep us from seeing how far off the path we have gone. We will of course be aware of the fact we have gotten off the path but we will not be afraid because we think we can’t lose our salvation. Sin will delude us into thinking that we have only strayed a little when in fact we are being systematically led further and further away from God and the truth. This deadly two punch combination of (1) No fear of falling away to our eternal destruction; and (2) The deceptive power of sin leading us further and further away from God will lead us so far away from God and harden our hearts so much that eventually we have very little chance of ever repenting and getting back on the narrow road that leads to eternal life. We will have rejected Jesus Christ and the gospel and yet continue to think we are still Christians on our way to heaven. All of this makes me very sad. People that I know who honestly love God and sincerely want to follow Jesus have been disarmed by this false teaching. They don’t know there is a real battle going on. Without knowing there is a real battle going on it makes Satan’s job 1000 times easier. At some point in their life sin may tempt them. When this happens it will be so much easier for them to succumb to it. Many Christians sincerely desire to live a Godly life. However, we also live in the flesh so will always face temptation. Understanding the dangers of allowing sin to come into our life is essential to keeping the flesh under control. When we do not fear sin the Holy Spirit is unable to convict us of sin and the need to repent. At a weak moment in our life sin can grab us and slowly lead us further and further away from God. Sadly, we probably won’t even know that this is happening because we have shut down the Holy Spirit’s ability to convict us of our sin and the need to repent and get back on the right path. Thank you again for your book and your encouragement. I am learning a great deal from your book. I did not think there was anyone who understood this subject better than I do. But I am glad that God led me to you. You have taken my understanding of OSAS to a new level. I am gaining so many new insights about OSAS from your book. I also feel like I am not alone. It is a blessing to know there are others who understand this vital truth. Thank you so much for everything you are doing. You have been a great blessing to me. Sincerely, Jeff S. [url="http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/jeff.htm]www.evangelicaloutreach.org/jeff.htm[/url]
Oh boy, since you changed your way of looking at it everyone else should too. If you jump off a cliff everyone else should too. Some logic!Not all people in the religious churches are children of God. In fact, there a only a few.Richard

 

[Jordan]

(RichardBurger;67761)
Oh boy, since you changed your way of looking at it everyone else should too. If you jump off a cliff everyone else should too. Some logic!Not all people in the religious churches are children of God. In fact, there a only a few.Richard
Nice change of plan Richard. Try to cover up a lie.

Seriously, you are deluding yourself and also are trying to deceive other people along with you.In fact I know you could stand God's Words of my posts. Everybody can see it right through you, just as we seen it already. You really want to put your soul in danger, don't you? If you are comfortable with it, by all means feel free.

 

[RichardBurger]

Straw man:There are some that build straw men to get across the idea that a child of God can turn away from God and be lost. They see that there are some in the churches, that many think are Christians, and then they do bad things or change to another religion etc. and give them as an example.This is the straw man they build but in truth they do not really know that those people were ever made a child of God, by God. According to the scriptures there are many tares (un-believers) in the churches.It has been my experience that a true child of God, made a child by God, is kept a child of God ,by God for His purpose.I was made a child of God when I was 8 or 9 years old. The Holy Spirit convinced me of my sinful nature and of my need for what Jesus did on the cross. As the scriptures teach, I was sealed with the Holy Spirit for His purpose. That was many, many, years ago.I have always known that He (the Holy Spirit) was in my heart and He comforts me by always reminding me of who I am in Jesus. The Holy Spirit guides me to do His will. I feel that I am to share with others my confidence, belief, faith, and hope in Jesus Christ and that is what I do.I grew up listing to preachers in churches and over the radio and then TV. The Holy Spirit always whispered in my heart that I should go to God’s word and see if those things I heard were true. I am sorry to say that not many of the things I heard are true. Most are that I must save and keep myself saved by my own will power. I constantly heard that there are things I must do to be saved and to keep myself saved. But all the time the Holy Spirit whispered that I was made a child of God for His purpose and I am kept a child of God for His purpose. I was not made a child of God by my efforts nor am I kept a child of God by my efforts.It is this confidence in Jesus’ (God’s) work on the cross that I wish to share with others.I am no straw man.Richard

 

[Letsgofishing]

(RichardBurger;67796)
Straw man:There are some that build straw men to get across the idea that a child of God can turn away from God and be lost. They see that there are some in the churches, that many think are Christians, and then they do bad things or change to another religion etc. and give them as an example.This is the straw man they build but in truth they do not really know that those people were ever made a child of God, by God. According to the scriptures there are many tares (un-believers) in the churches.It has been my experience that a true child of God, made a child by God, is kept a child of God ,by God for His purpose.I was made a child of God when I was 8 or 9 years old. The Holy Spirit convinced me of my sinful nature and of my need for what Jesus did on the cross. As the scriptures teach, I was sealed with the Holy Spirit for His purpose. That was many, many, years ago.I have always known that He (the Holy Spirit) was in my heart and He comforts me by always reminding me of who I am in Jesus. The Holy Spirit guides me to do His will. I feel that I am to share with others my confidence, belief, faith, and hope in Jesus Christ and that is what I do.I grew up listing to preachers in churches and over the radio and then TV. The Holy Spirit always whispered in my heart that I should go to God’s word and see if those things I heard were true. I am sorry to say that not many of the things I heard are true. Most are that I must save and keep myself saved by my own will power. I constantly heard that there are things I must do to be saved and to keep myself saved. But all the time the Holy Spirit whispered that I was made a child of God for His purpose and I am kept a child of God for His purpose. I was not made a child of God by my efforts nor am I kept a child of God by my efforts.It is this confidence in Jesus’ (God’s) work on the cross that I wish to share with others.I am no straw man.Richard
Richard I don't think you understand what were saying. We are not saying that we have to save ourselves. We cannot be saved by our works, we are only saved by grace, we remain saved by grace, and we are kept Gods children by that grace. we are just saying that a person has the ability to look at that grace which God has granted and say " no I don't want to accept that grace anymore" So even though he was saved by Gods grace, he no longer wanted that grace, and why would God want an unwilling believer. he doesn't. We cannot save ourselves, but we have to accept Gods salvation.

 

[Jordan]

(Letsgofishing;67807)
Richard I don't think you understand what were saying. We are not saying that we have to save ourselves. We cannot be saved by our works, we are only saved by grace, we remain saved by grace, and we are kept Gods children by that grace. we are just saying that a person has the ability to look at that grace which God has granted and say " no I don't want to accept that grace anymore" So even though he was saved by Gods grace, he no longer wanted that grace, and why would God want an unwilling believer. he doesn't. We cannot save ourselves, but we have to accept Gods salvation.
Ryan, let it go. Richard does not want to hear God's Truth. He still wants to keep the chickenpot doctrine. Will he ever wants to listen to God? Who knows.

 

[epistemaniac]

here is a post from the other thread, stating my opinions on the issue, they are, as is usual for most of my views, they are the minority... but I rejoice, because the road to destruction is wide, and the way to truth is narrow.... and since I have the minority opinion here, that just MUST mean I have the truth (or, that is the way many would argue here, I am just being sarcastic

lol....) anyways...I disagree with OSAS, not with the Preservation of the Saints....many want to say that if a person says a prayer, walks down an aisle to an altar call, raises their hand one time at an evangelists tent meeting, etc etc etc... That this means they are eternally saved no matter how they live their lives.... not true!!! a true converted Christian does not want to continue to sin or want to live a sinful lifestyle... of course we all do sin, but what is a person's heart like after sinning? is it broken over displeasing God? Is it repentant? This is the Christian's heart.A person does not become a Christian and then lose their salvation every time they sin. So the issue is not sin per se, for every single Christian sins and will continue to sin throughout their lives. But rather, what is their attitude towards their sin, that is the question.But I believe the bible teaches that those who are truly Christ's can never ever be totally lost. Jesus promises that those who are His will not be lost, in fact, Jesus said that only those who are like Judas, sons of destruction or perdition, will be lost... John 17:7-12 (ESV) 7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. 9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled."..... how much more secure could you be!?!? And since salvation was never merely the result of our willing in the first place, Romans 9:14-16 (ESV) 14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."...... but is rather of God choosing us, not our choosing God, Romans 9:18 (ESV) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills."..... salvation is secure because God does not change His mind once He chooses someone to be His child, He does not rescind on His promises and then suddenly say "you are no longer my child".If a person's initial salvation is all of grace, due to God's choosing us rather than our choosing Him, though of course we do choose God, but we only do so when God gives us the ability to come to Him.... John 6:44 (ESV) No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." and John 6:64-65 (ESV) 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”then a person persevering to the end is also all of grace, Philippians 2:12-13 (ESV) 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."...and since neither of these things can be done on our own without grace, then salvation is secure, not because we hold on to God, but because He holds on to us.so "Once Saved Always Saved" as defined above is a false doctrine, but the preservation of the saints is true doctrine...blessings,ken

 

[RichardBurger]

(Letsgofishing;67807)
Richard I don't think you understand what were saying. We are not saying that we have to save ourselves. We cannot be saved by our works, we are only saved by grace, we remain saved by grace, and we are kept Gods children by that grace. we are just saying that a person has the ability to look at that grace which God has granted and say " no I don't want to accept that grace anymore" So even though he was saved by Gods grace, he no longer wanted that grace, and why would God want an unwilling believer. he doesn't. We cannot save ourselves, but we have to accept Gods salvation.
Give me a break. I understand exactly what is being said. Do you really think I am illiterate?It has been said that a person, once made a child of God, by God for His own purpose, can, and to some, will most likely lose their salvation unless they, by their own will (power) keep their faith in God. --- This is foolishness.They were not made children of God by their own efforts and they cannot keep themselves a child of God by their own efforts to keep faith in God. They are kept by the Holy Spirit that lives in their hearts.For the slow at heart, understand that I believe we are not only made children of God, by God, we are also kept as His children, by God. That is my belief and nothing has been said that has changed my mind. My faith, trust, confidence and hope in Him has not been shaken by the efforts of others who want me to put my faith, trust, confidence and hope in my efforts.You all can say all those things about my not understanding etc. and etc. and Jordan can continue his rantings as long as you all wish but I am not impressed.I have stated, many time, what I believe and you all will just have to accept it as what I believe. Argue with me all you wish but it will not change what I believe anymore than what I say will change what you believe.Richard

 

[Letsgofishing]

well Richard, if you aren't willing to step back and examine your beliefswhy exactly are you in this forum?

 

[Christina]

That is your misconception Richard stop with indigent attitude you are so dead set on being right you refuse to see what we are saying You refuse to hear what God says you have one agenda to prove yourself right dont try to act like its some noble thing you are proclaiming it is your pride you defending short and simple.We have never said anyone but God through the blood of Christ by his grace has saved us all we have ever said is that we have personal responsibility to love honor and respect his love and Grace by staying in his Word, in faith ... that if we are not vigilant because we battle against principalities we can fall away its our responsibility to make sure we do not ....That is Gods word you keep trying to deny it and justify yourself by accusing us of saying what we are not nor have ever said ....just so you can claim you are Right. IF your pride is that important to you fine but don't ask us to stop saying the truth because your ego maybe bruised.

 

[RichardBurger]

(Christina;67820)
That is your misconception Richard stop with indigent attitude you are so dead set on being right you refuse to see what we are saying You refuse to hear what God saySo it is I that is refusing to hear what God is saying. Another put down accusation.We have never said anyone but God through the blood of Christ by his grace has saved us all we have ever said is that we have personal responsibility to love honor and respect his love and Grace by staying in his Word, in faith ... that if we are not vigilant because we battle against principalities we can fall away its our responsibility to make sure we not ....I am sorry but God says that I have already won the victory and am safe and secure in Him. But of course I guess I am wrong, Right?That is Gods word you keep trying to deny it and justify yourself by accusing us of saying what we are not nor have ever said ....just so you can claim you are Right. IF your pride is that important to you fine but don't ask us to stop saying the truth because you ego is bruised.So now I am full of pride and my ego is bruised. Way to go Christina!! That is a good one! By the way it is God that has already justified me.
Like you I just couldn't help myself.Richard

 

[RichardBurger]

(Letsgofishing;67817)
well Richard, if you aren't willing to step back and examine your beliefswhy exactly are you in this forum?
To SHARE my understanding. But of course, according to those on this forum my understanding is all wrong and I must change them to fit in with others on this forum or continue to get stupid remarks like yours. --- Have I asked you why you are on this forum? Have I told you that you must step back and examine your beliefs? Foolishness.Why are you making this personal?Richard

 

[Jordan]

(RichardBurger;67822)
(Letsgofishing;67817)
well Richard, if you aren't willing to step back and examine your beliefswhy exactly are you in this forum?
To SHARE my understanding. But of course, according to those on this forum my understanding is all wrong and I must change them to fit in with others on this forum or continue to get stupid remarks like yours. --- Have I asked you why you are on this forum? Have I told you that you must step back and examine your beliefs? Foolishness.Why are you making this personal?RichardNo one is making it personal. No one is attacking you, all we doing is attacking the doctrine... Why? Obviously your doctrine doesn't fit into God Words. (I John 4:1, Matthew 7:16-20)

 

[Letsgofishing]

(RichardBurger;67822)
To SHARE my understanding. But of course, according to those on this forum my understanding is all wrong and I must change them to fit in with others on this forum or continue to get stupid remarks like yours. --- Have I asked you why you are on this forum? Have I told you that you must step back and examine your beliefs? Foolishness. Why are you making this personal? Richard
Richardcan I apologize I was out of line there.I didn't mean to offend, I just got so caught up in the debate, that I forgot that you were my brother. I should start treating you like one.Ryan Fitz

 

[Christina]

You were treating him like a brother LGF you were telling him the truth never apoligize for that ... The aspostels didnt apoligize for saying what was true and neither should we or we become part of the problem ... spreading mens lies .... We dont tell Richard the truth out of malice or contempt we say it out of caring for our brothers that they may see what Father says to them ...If they are not interested fine ...their choice but never apoligize for saying Gods truth.. Your loyalty is to God not men if you are telling the truth never apoligize for being a warrior for GodBecause one wants to play a poor me game