Eternal Security

[Jordan]

(Christina;67828)
You were treating him like a brother LGF you were telling him the truth never apoligize for that ... The aspostels didnt apoligize for saying what was true and neither should we or we become part of the problem ... spreading mens lies .... We dont tell Richard the truth out of malice or contempt we say it out of caring for our brothers that they may see what Father says to them ...If they are not interested fine ...their choice but never apoligize for saying Gods truth.. Because one wants to play a poor me game
You got that right Christina. It's almost like and feels like saying to Satan ... "I'm sorry" then turns back on God because of what as you said... a poor me game... sheesh... even Christ never apologize to Satan. That's good enough for me.

 

[epistemaniac]

I don't see Richard as any less teachable, as any less certain about his beliefs then most everyone else here at this forum. Remember, just because someone refuses to bow before you and change their views to match yours, it does not mean that they are being prideful, that they are having an "attitude", that they are 'defending" etc etc etc, UNLESS this is EXACTLY true of you and everyone else at this forum..... or, said another way, do those who disagree with eternal security want to think of themselves as "defending", as being "prideful", of having an 'attitude", as "dead set on being right"? If not, then it ought to be easy for you to see that those who believe that eternal security do not think of themselves as any of these personal attacks and derogatory statements apply to them any more than you think those deraugatory statements ought to be applied towards or said of you for you holding on to your cherished beliefs. Or put even more simply, do unto others as you would have done unto you. blessings,ken

 

[RichardBurger]

(epistemaniac;67860)
I don't see Richard as any less teachable, as any less certain about his beliefs then most everyone else here at this forum. Remember, just because someone refuses to bow before you and change their views to match yours, it does not mean that they are being prideful, that they are having an "attitude", that they are 'defending" etc etc etc, UNLESS this is EXACTLY true of you and everyone else at this forum..... or, said another way, do those who disagree with eternal security want to think of themselves as "defending", as being "prideful", of having an 'attitude", as "dead set on being right"? If not, then it ought to be easy for you to see that those who believe that eternal security do not think of themselves as any of these personal attacks and derogatory statements apply to them any more than you think those deraugatory statements ought to be applied towards or said of you for you holding on to your cherished beliefs. Or put even more simply, do unto others as you would have done unto you. blessings,ken
Well thank you Ken. You have an open mind.I think people on forums should be very careful when they make accusations towards others. When the Jews stoned Stephens they said he had an unclean spirit. That is blaspheming the Holy Spirit that was indwelling Stephen.IMHO, When people on forums make the same claim about someone when they are in a discussion with a child of God, who is indwelled by the Holy Spirit, they are doing the same thing.Richard

 

[Jordan]

(RichardBurger;67861)
Well thank you Ken. You have an open mind.I think people on forums should be very careful when they make accusations towards others. When the Jews stoned Stephens they said he had an unclean spirit. That is blaspheming the Holy Spirit that was indwelling Stephen.IMHO, When people on forums make the same claim about someone when they are in a discussion with a child of God, who is indwelled by the Holy Spirit, they are doing the same thing.Richard
Yes they were Jews that stoned Stephen, but only one is named and that person's name was Paul who was formerly named Saul. (Acts 7:58-59) When Paul says that Stephen has an unclean spirit. Well looks like Christ made a major error on choosing Paul as His Apostles since he already committed the blasphemy of the unforgiveable sin of the Holy Spirit? Right?

Don't play this fools game again Richard. You already lost this war.

 

[tomwebster]

You have expressed your opinion and we have expressed ours. I don't think either of us will change our minds so what say we end this discussion since it is going nowhere?

 

[Jordan]

(tomwebster;67865)
You have expressed your opinion and we have expressed ours. I don't think either of us will change our minds so what say we end this discussion since it is going nowhere?
That is very reasonable Tom. That sounds like a good idea, how about this reasoning though? Since they are members that doesn't post at all, but just read posts on the board, and they are guests here as well, since we do not know who is listening to God's Words, I'm afraid I have to keep going, not for us, or Richard since we are never going to change our minds... but for them readers who are guests and members who are just readers.

 

[epistemaniac]

telling people your INTERPRETATION of the scriptures is telling them your OPINION, never confuse your OPINION about what God's words MEANS with God's words themselves.... for they are not the same thing at all......though this is elementary and no one ought to even have to bring this up, sadly, it seems that it does have to be pointed out.... lets face it.... people who disagree with eternal security believe what they believe because, hopefully anyway, they believe that the Scriptures teach that you can lose your salvation.... fine... I can accept that... people are passionate about what they believe, and perhaps even more passionate about what they believe God and His word teach.... but what people MUST realize is that people who believe that salvation is secure and eternal ALSO believe what they believe, again, hopefully, because they believe that this is what the Scriptures teach, and we too are passionate about what we believe because we believe that this is what God and His word teach..... so we ought not question MOTIVES as to why people believe what they believe.... I do not think that the people who deny eternal security are intentionally twisting God's words, I do not think they are intentionally teaching "men's interpretations", I do not think, in most cases, that people are intentionally being prideful, that they "don't want to hear God's word", that what they believe is "chicken pot doctrine" (whatever in the world that is supposed to mean lol), or any other condescending words or phrases you can think of.... so people who believe that salvation is not eternal ought not question my motives, slander my character, think they know my heart etc.... no one knows the heart except for God, period. Acts 15:8 (ESV) And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us," You can disagree with me all you want... who cares?..... you can think I am wrong, and, after all, the law of non-contradiction would state that one of us MUST be wrong on this issue, either you can lose your salvation or you can't... but do not move from challenging doctrine to slandering individuals and claiming to know what only God Himself knows, namely the heart and the heart's motives and reasons for believing what it believes.... and then claim that you are slandering individual's and their character and trying to justify what you are doing by saying that you do it "out of love" or some such nonsense. You can try to correct mistaken doctrine out of love.... no problem there.... but thinking that you can sit in judgment over their heart and motives is wrong. That's all I am saying....blessings,ken

 

[tomwebster]

What I see is we are just going in circles. I think almost everything that can be said from both sides has been said, all someone needs to do is re-read one of the many threads on this subject. Maybe we can find the point on this issue where we are in agreement.I believe there are a number of words that need to be discussed and/or defined:Free-willPredestinationElectionSalvation

 

[Letsgofishing]

(Jordan;67830)
You got that right Christina. It's almost like and feels like saying to Satan ... "I'm sorry" then turns back on God because of what as you said... a poor me game... sheesh... even Christ never apologize to Satan. That's good enough for me.
yeah except Richard isn't satan, and he doesn't need to turn back to God, he's already a part of his body. I wasn't apologizing because I was telling debating against OSAS. I was apologizing because at one point of this conversation I turned confrontational, vindictive, and prideful. Thats no way to represent Gods Word on this earth or on this forum.

 

[Jordan]

(Letsgofishing;67873)
(Jordan;67830)
You got that right Christina. It's almost like and feels like saying to Satan ... "I'm sorry" then turns back on God because of what as you said... a poor me game... sheesh... even Christ never apologize to Satan. That's good enough for me.
yeah except Richard isn't satan, and he doesn't need to turn back to God, he's already a part of his body. I wasn't apologizing because I was telling debating against OSAS. I was apologizing because at one point of this conversation I turned confrontational, vindictive, and prideful. Thats no way to represent Gods Word on this earth or on this forum.Am I saying Richard is Satan? No! You are missing the whole point. This is aiming in general who's preaching a false doctrine to lead astray to God's precious children.

 

[Christina]

(epistemaniac;67868)
telling people your INTERPRETATION of the scriptures is telling them your OPINION, never confuse your OPINION about what God's words MEANS with God's words themselves.... for they are not the same thing at all......though this is elementary and no one ought to even have to bring this up, sadly, it seems that it does have to be pointed out.... lets face it.... people who disagree with eternal security believe what they believe because, hopefully anyway, they believe that the Scriptures teach that you can lose your salvation.... fine... I can accept that... people are passionate about what they believe, and perhaps even more passionate about what they believe God and His word teach.... but what people MUST realize is that people who believe that salvation is secure and eternal ALSO believe what they believe, again, hopefully, because they believe that this is what the Scriptures teach, and we too are passionate about what we believe because we believe that this is what God and His word teach..... so we ought not question MOTIVES as to why people believe what they believe.... I do not think that the people who deny eternal security are intentionally twisting God's words, I do not think they are intentionally teaching "men's interpretations", I do not think, in most cases, that people are intentionally being prideful, that they "don't want to hear God's word", that what they believe is "chicken pot doctrine" (whatever in the world that is supposed to mean lol), or any other condescending words or phrases you can think of.... so people who believe that salvation is not eternal ought not question my motives, slander my character, think they know my heart etc.... no one knows the heart except for God, period. Acts 15:8 (ESV) And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us," You can disagree with me all you want... who cares?..... you can think I am wrong, and, after all, the law of non-contradiction would state that one of us MUST be wrong on this issue, either you can lose your salvation or you can't... but do not move from challenging doctrine to slandering individuals and claiming to know what only God Himself knows, namely the heart and the heart's motives and reasons for believing what it believes.... and then claim that you are slandering individual's and their character and trying to justify what you are doing by saying that you do it "out of love" or some such nonsense. You can try to correct mistaken doctrine out of love.... no problem there.... but thinking that you can sit in judgment over their heart and motives is wrong. That's all I am saying....blessings,ken
You are the one sitting in judgement in nearly every post you make The fact we do not agree with men and follow ALL THE SCRIPTURE ofthe Bible NOT JUST SOME THAT SUIT US .... is not Judgement is its why Amos 8:11 is true everyone wants to just have it be fine to Ignore scripture and just follow some religious doctrine of men...I said before i'll say it again THIS IS A BIBLE STUDY SITE NOT NOT NOT A RELIGIOUS DOCTRINE SITE IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO SEE WHAT SCRIPTURE SAYS THEN GO SOMEWHERE ELSE ... WE ARE NOT SAYING WE ARE RIGHT WE ARE SAYING THAT SCRIPTURE CONTRADICTS THIS DOCTRINE SO WE HAVE OPPOSING VIEWS funny you only complain if its our disagreement seems quite hypocritical to me

 

[Letsgofishing]

(Jordan;67874)
Am I saying Richard is Satan? No! You are missing the whole point. This is aiming in general who's preaching a false doctrine to lead astray to God's precious children.
OK I missed the whole point, must have been the way you worded it.I took it as you saying that Rich was purposely teaching the doctrine to misguide Christians. and that's obviously not what your saying.

 

[Jordan]

(Letsgofishing;67879)
(Jordan;67874)
Am I saying Richard is Satan? No! You are missing the whole point. This is aiming in general who's preaching a false doctrine to lead astray to God's precious children.
OK I missed the whole point, must have been the way you worded it.I took it as you saying that Rich was purposely teaching the doctrine to misguide Christians. and that's obviously not what your saying.IMHO, I think he is purposely preaching OSAS as he believes it and loves it wholeheartedly. That is not saying he is Satan, because he is not.II Corinthians 11:4 - For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.II John 1:9-11 - Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

 

[Letsgofishing]

(Jordan;67880)
IMHO, I think he is purposely preaching OSAS as he believes it and loves it wholeheartedly. That is not saying he is Satan, because he is not.II Corinthians 11:4 - For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.II John 1:9-11 - Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
agree

 

[Christina]

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen. Mat.7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heavenMat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquityOSAS DISPROVED.............NOT ONE WORD OF MINE........... ALL GODS You refuse to address what contradicts you although given ample opportunity and all has been said on this by both sides