Events to come

[veteran]

Ok, i will spend some more time in Joel to see if I get your understanding.
We should enter this one step at a time....
A nation has invaded my land, powerful and without number; it has the teeth of a lion, the fangs of a lioness. It has lain waste my fig trees. It has stripped off their bark and thrown it away, leaving their branches white. … The fields are ruined, the ground is dried up, the oil fails. Despair, you farmers, wail, you vine growers; grieve for the wheat and the barley, because the harvest of the field is destroyed. The vine is dried up and the fig tree is withered; the pomegranate, the palm and the apple tree – all the trees of the field – are dried up” (1:6-7, 10-12).
In these passages it claims the fields are ruined the trees stripped, the harvest field destroyed.
They have the appearance of horses; they gallop along like cavalry. With a noise like that of chariots they leap over the mountaintops, like a crackling fire consuming stubble, like mighty army drawn up for battle. At the sight of them, nations are in anguish; every face turns pale. They charge like warriors; they scale walls like soldiers. They all march in line, not swerving from their course (2:3-7).
In these passages it does seem to give a depiction of the locusts in Rev Ch: 9
1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
Notice verse 4, here it emphatically states not to hurt the grass not anything green nor any tree.
Joel's description of what the locusts do is in direct violation of Rev ch 9 verse 4
How can it be claimed these two are linked as one when the actions of the locusts are exact opposite?

What you're doing wrong is misapplying God's description of how the locusts work symbolically as a literal working. Those locusts are not coming to literally strip bark off trees. That is only a metaphorical description of HOW they work in completeness of devouring, just like real locusts. It does not mean real natural locusts is what God is showing us, which should be obvious with His defining them to be "a nation" per the Joel 1:6 verse.

The idea they are not to hurt any green thing in Rev.9 goes with the Joel symbolic meaning about certain men that devour the inheritance of God's people, and not the idea of literal wars and rumours of wars. Those like Hal Lindsay are busy teaching about a pre-trib rapture and all-out war for the trib which is direct opposite to all this. Remember Christ showed that when we hear of wars and rumours of wars the end is NOT yet. The opposite of that is a time of peace, a false peace, the "Peace and safety" Paul mentioned in 1 Thess.5.

So what movement in the world is showing up today involving a false world peace with the purpose to end all wars?



Joel 2:2-11
2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

A great people and strong, as a description of those locusts? Yes. Note that underlined part is another witness to the tribulation time, a time on earth that has never been the like, nor will ever be again, the same expression Dan.12:1 uses, and our Lord used in Matt.24 and Mark 13.


3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.

Rev.9 has the same kind of metaphor association with the horses running to battle, likewise with the teeth of lions but faces of men, showing these are men that are coming to prey on God's people and the land like a lion attacks its prey.


5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.

They are aligned in battle array, and the description is they're coming to make war. But it is a spiritual war for the end, not a literal war with men's weapons. It's about Satan's host of workers on the earth as a spiritual army, and God is sending it for the last days, the tribulation time, since that link was given back at Joel 2:2.


9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before His army: for His camp is very great: for He is strong That executeth His word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
(KJV)

Then to top the subject of when it will end, God declares His army, His camp that will defeat that locust army, and the defeat timing is associated with what timing there? The "day of the Lord", which is the time of Christ's coming "as a thief".

 

[dismas]

The Joel locusts are referred to as the cutting locust, then swarming, then hopping locust. These are the 3 fallings of Babylon:

Ezekiel 21

[sup]13 [/sup]“‘Testing will surely come. And what if even the scepter, which the sword despises, does not continue? declares the Sovereign Lord.’

[sup]14 [/sup]“So then, son of man, prophesy
and strike your hands together.
Let the sword strike twice,
even three times.
It is a sword for slaughter—
a sword for great slaughter,
closing in on them from every side.
[sup]15 [/sup]So that hearts may melt with fear
and the fallen be many,
I have stationed the sword for slaughter[sup][b][/sup]
at all their gates.
Look! It is forged to strike like lightning,
it is grasped for slaughter.
[sup]16 [/sup]Slash to the right, you sword,
then to the left,
wherever your blade is turned.
[sup]17 [/sup]I too will strike my hands together,
and my wrath will subside.
I the Lord have spoken.”

The 3 fallings of Babylon is in association with the 3 wars of Revelations: the Seal 2 war (the red horseman war), the Trumpet 6 war (the red horses of Rev. 9:17), and finally at Armageddon/ the Bowl 6 war.

In general, here's how I see Revelations panning out:

The Seal 2 war and the 1st falling of Babylon sees Israel/ Christian Israel (the US) imprisoned and scattered. (12-21-12)

The Trumpet 6 war/ the Gog war (and 2nd falling of Babylon/ Edom Joel 3:19, Edom is the West) occurs (6-4-16). God delivers Israel from its enemies. Due to this, Israel gets religious and starts the 3rd Temple 12-24-16). Israel gets a prince of the covenant. This prince and the King of the North (Babylon) make a 7 year agreement. The prince disperses the lands and treasures to people, but due to a trangression of some sort on the prince's part, the King of the North (the little horn from the 4 headed leopard kingdom / Greece/ = EU 4 kingdom) has to send in an army to occupy Jerusalem (Dan. 8:11-12) (11-16-19). Now that the little horn King of Babylon has control of the temple, he places the abomination of desolation on a wing of the 3rd Temple (11-16-19) and stops the sacrifices and then wars against the saints until Armageddon, the bowl 6 war (4-29-23) when the little horn goes into the 3rd Temple and calls himself god.

Again, the Seal 2 war is 12-21-12, the Trumpet 6 war is 6-4-16 (1260 days after 12-21-12), the 3[sup]rd[/sup] temple (Trumpet 7) starts shortly thereafter at 12-24-16, when Hanukah lands on Christmas. Add 2300 days (Dan. 8:14) to get 4-29-23, the last day of Passover. Add 9 months birth pangs (Matt. 24:8) for the Rev. 12:1 star alignment on 9-23-17 (if you are interested in the Rapture, some people put it at this date, I’m not really into the rapture as cosmic vacuum cleaner idea, but this video is interesting) .

[font="Calibri""]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QW17ZP0shv0&feature=player_embedded[/font]

6-4-16 plus 2520 days is 4-29-23 again, the last day of Passover. 7 solar years prior is 4-29-16, also the last day of Passover. 1260 days prior to 4-29-23 is 11-16-19 when the beast from the sea arises.

 

[tgwprophet]

You cannot claim one is metaphors and the other is not. You must play by the rules for both scriptures. Both are very descriptive one says eat not the green things the other tells of the mass amount of destructionfor eating the green thins. Joel;is simply NOT another description of Rev 9. If you wish to apply metaphors..then apply them to both... if you wish these metaphors to describe meanings exactly opposite of what is writen then do it or both, and they are then not linked...yet again.

My brother is a very comptive person... always wanting to win. But I am a very skillful person. He really likes pool, but I am so far advanced he has no chance. I played pro pool. His resolve was to not play the game. When we were kids, we played allot of scrub football and baseball, to ein his resolve was to argue tooth and nail for each close call, that it was always in his favor... or to change the rules for his favor. We used to have schedules for each to do chores... my sister would alter those schedules to her favor..nearly every month or week then he would alter them to his favor each trying to change the rules to their own benefit. Me... I liked un-bias rules, I liked to be fair, so my challenge was to always put my aptitude, in whatever competition, to the test. For year my brother has attended church religiously, and I have not. With that he thought he had to have a better grasp of God's Word even in prophecy. However, through the last years he discovered he did not. so he did what he should have done... he aligned his understanding with mine.

If I could only get him to do the same concerning politics. I watched a program where Jim Stossel (i think) was projecting how the gallop poles work and how the voting system is not corrupt and it easily dawned on me... if it was not corrupt there would be no need of having that program.

We have so many diverse understandings which has given way to so many diverse religions, all because so many wish to change the rules.
The challenge is to maintain one set of rules and abide by them, thus allowing God's Word to remain un-biased, and clear. With Joel being as it is, I have no problem seeing it fulfilled as Rev 9 being as it is, I have no problem seeing it fulfilled, But, having therm as two descriptions of the same thing.. I have extreme problems fitting them together.

If you think you can alter the meaning of one so it is not in direct contrast with the oher and then why not apply that ability throughout God's Word twhenever you desire? Then you may as well write your own Bible and maybe combine Mormons with Muslim.... kinda mosileum - scriptues that need to be buried. This s not one of your better arguments and provides a kinda house of cards problem. I know you are better than this.

 

[veteran]

You cannot claim one is metaphors and the other is not. You must play by the rules for both scriptures. Both are very descriptive one says eat not the green things the other tells of the mass amount of destructionfor eating the green thins. Joel;is simply NOT another description of Rev 9. If you wish to apply metaphors..then apply them to both... if you wish these metaphors to describe meanings exactly opposite of what is writen then do it or both, and they are then not linked...yet again.

BOTH Scripture descriptions of the locusts in Joel and Rev.9 are metaphorical type descriptions. So don't tell me one has to be one way and the other a different way.

You apparently have other reasons you're not willing to divulge for wanting to keep the two Scripture prophecies separate, because there is NO way to take either Scripture description as being about literal locusts, as I can easily prove by the Scripture itself.

God's pointing to the locust army in Joel is definitive, as He even calls them His "great army" that He sends just prior to the end, meaning He is allowing that locust army of Satan's host to work on earth. The Rev.9 Scripture is even MORE metaphorical to show He is not speaking of literal locusts...

Rev 9:2-11
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
(KJV)

Locusts don't come out of the pit of hell. Locusts don't have hair like women, nor tails like scorpions, nor breastplates, nor faces of men, etc. Nor do real locusts have a king over them. So you're unwillingness to understand those two locust descriptions are BOTH metaphorical, and actually about real men is silly and completely without excuse. That goes for your attempt to use that don't hurt any green thing idea too, since the description is NOT about literal locusts, but Satan's workers upon earth for the end.

The rest of your words are unwarranted, and they actually reveal that you're trying to be competitive against this 'simple' metaphorical description of locusts devouring actually being Satan's workers upon the earth for the last days. So what is it that you're trying to hide by being against that association in God's Word?

 

[tgwprophet]

Actually Veteran, I cannot see the two as being one, since one destroys plants trees and cultivated fields and the other leaves them alone. Your contention that in Joel the plantlife that is destroyed is not actual plantlife - I find un-warranted and without a qualifier.

And lest I forget and if I had not already posted this before... Merry Christmas Veteran to you and yours.

 

[veteran]

Actually Veteran, I cannot see the two as being one, since one destroys plants trees and cultivated fields and the other leaves them alone. Your contention that in Joel the plantlife that is destroyed is not actual plantlife - I find un-warranted and without a qualifier.

And lest I forget and if I had not already posted this before... Merry Christmas Veteran to you and yours.

Why are you trying to treat that 'metaphor' as literal in the first place? there's no way it's gonna' make sense with treating those locusts as 'real' locusts upon the earth. Until you get down into proper study of all of Joel and in Rev.9, you're not going to understand it.