Examine Yourselves

[Giuliano]

Both a spiritual and a physical veil . . .

2 Corinthians 3
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

Moses put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not continue to look until the end of that which is done away.

This is how the NIV puts it:

13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away.

I don't think it was about Moses being self-conscious, I think Moses wanted to spare the people having to see the shine fade away to nothing.

But we without a vail over our face show God's glory not as an external imprint, but from a new creation, new inside, not shining less and less with each passing day until it goes away, but shining more and more as we are being confirmed to His image.

What was abolished in "look to the end of that which is abolished"? What is the "end" of it? Are you thinking it was the light on Moses face?
Don't ask me since I find Paul hard to understand.

18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Much love!

You do not think Moses and Elijah had glorified bodies when they appeared with Jesus at his transfiguration?

 

[marks]

What was abolished in "look to the end of that which is abolished"? What is the "end" of it? Are you thinking it was the light on Moses face?
Don't ask me since I find Paul hard to understand.

Yes, that's my understanding.

This is Vincent's comment:

"The true sense of the Hebrew is given by the Sept.: “When he ceased speaking he put a veil on his face;” not because the Israelites could not endure the radiance, but that they should not see it fade away. Whenever Moses went into the presence of God he removed the veil, and his face was again illumined, and shone while he delivered God's message to the people. Then, after the delivery of the message, and during his ordinary association with the people, he kept his face covered."

From Jaimeson-Fausset-Brown:

"The view of Exo_34:30-35, according to the Septuagint is adopted by Paul, that Moses in going in to speak to God removed the veil till he came out and had spoken to the people; and then when he had done speaking, he put on the veil that they might not look on the end, or the fading, of that transitory glory."

The people had asked Moses to cover his face when he came from meeting with God because the brightness was freaking everyone out. But Moses kept his face covered because he could see the brightness fading, not wanting others to see it fade away entirely.

The end of what was abolished, yes, I see that meaning, the final fadeout of the shine that is going away.

Much love!

 

[Stan B]

Whole nuther can of worms here, lol Won't comment as I'm not versed in it well enough.

No big deal. I have read a number books written by PhD kind of theologians, and no two agree on everything. If everything could be agreed upon and settled, going back to Scripture would no longer have any purpose. God has presented Scripture in a manner, that keeps us going back again and again, in an effort to discover ultimate truth. The Bible is unique in that it's not a read once, throw away kind of book.

 

[Stan B]

You do not think Moses and Elijah had glorified bodies when they appeared with Jesus at his transfiguration?

Nope. We all have only interim bodies until the Second Coming, when the dead in
Christ are raised and we are all given new bodies.

 

[Giuliano]

Nope. We all have only interim bodies until the Second Coming, when the dead in
Christ are raised and we are all given new bodies.

That may be your opinion; but I'd say they had been born from above and could move around in the Spirit as those who are born of the Spirit can.

 

[Giuliano]

Yes, that's my understanding.

This is Vincent's comment:

"The true sense of the Hebrew is given by the Sept.: “When he ceased speaking he put a veil on his face;” not because the Israelites could not endure the radiance, but that they should not see it fade away. Whenever Moses went into the presence of God he removed the veil, and his face was again illumined, and shone while he delivered God's message to the people. Then, after the delivery of the message, and during his ordinary association with the people, he kept his face covered."

From Jaimeson-Fausset-Brown:

"The view of Exo_34:30-35, according to the Septuagint is adopted by Paul, that Moses in going in to speak to God removed the veil till he came out and had spoken to the people; and then when he had done speaking, he put on the veil that they might not look on the end, or the fading, of that transitory glory."

The people had asked Moses to cover his face when he came from meeting with God because the brightness was freaking everyone out. But Moses kept his face covered because he could see the brightness fading, not wanting others to see it fade away entirely.

The end of what was abolished, yes, I see that meaning, the final fadeout of the shine that is going away.

Much love!

I do not think the Septuagint is inspired. It has several errors in it. Nor do I think commentators who seem to think the Septuagint may be more inspired than the original Hebrew (if that is what they are doing) are worth much. I find the view expressed noxious since it accuses Moses of the sin of pride when I see zero evidence of his being proud. On the contrary, we are told he was humble. I see that accusation of Moses then as coming from the lips of the serpent and reject it emphatically. It is bearing false witness to me.

I cannot say I am sure my take on it in right; but it seems better than those commentators'. I think Paul was referring to the "written laws of Moses" as having some glory which would not endure -- but the Christian Law of Love, the Spirit of the Eternal Law, revealed to the saint has a glory that is also eternal. The Jews refer to the spiritual Law as the Torah Or -- meaning "Law of Light."

Compare that also to the Temple which once had been filled with the Glory of God. The proper Temple of God is man; and if he is properly glorified, that is eternal in a way the Glory of God in the earthly Temple in Jerusalem was not.

For a reason unknown to me, Paul seems to use a symbol different from other texts. Instead of saying Israel had hard hearts, he says they had a veil over their hearts. Thus they could "read" the written words of the Written Torah, but they still could not "see" or "hear" the Living Word or the Torah Or.

 

[marks]

I find the view expressed noxious since it accuses Moses of the sin of pride when I see zero evidence of his being proud. On the contrary, we are told he was humble.

I don't know . . . I don't see it that way at all. I see Moses as wanting to spare the people that sadness. Nothing to do with pride.

Much love!

 

[Giuliano]

I don't know . . . I don't see it that way at all. I see Moses as wanting to spare the people that sadness. Nothing to do with pride.

Much love!

He wore that veil because they were frightened of his face; but believe what you want. I feel you're wasting my time.

 

[marks]

You are stretching things. He wore that veil because they were frightened of his face.

My understanding is that Moses was initially asked to wear the vail because they were afraid, but that he continued to wear the vail for the other reason. I really do see that being taught in 2 Corinthians 3, as an example of the difference between the glory of the first covenant, and the glory of the new covenant.

Much love!