Exodus 34:6-7, The Character of God.

[Dodo_David]

Revelation 22:14-15 (ESV):

"Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."

Yep, the Lake of Fire is outside the gates. So, everyone in the Lake of Fire is also outside the gates.

A literal translation of Matt 25:46, "And these shall go away unto age-abiding correction...." - EBR

Uh, no, that is not a literal translation. In another thread, HammerStone already gives an excellent explanation of what the Greek means.

Here is how Young's Literal Translation translates Matthew 25:46:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

So, either
A ) the righteous have eternal life while the others have eternal punishment, or
B ) the righteous only have life for a limited period of time while the others have punishment for only a limited period of time.

Besides, as I often say, no single English version is the standard for comparison, not even the EBR.

 

[Angelina]

There is a way out of hell (Jesus holds the keys, Rev 1:17-18 "Do not fear"). And in Rev 20:14, death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire and die.

The keys that you speak of is what Jesus purchased for us through his death and resurrection. Those who believe in Jesus by faith no-longer need to be afraid of death because Jesus holds the keys of death and hell/hades, period!

Death and hell/hades will eventually be thrown into the lake of fire empty because those who were in it are before the throne of God being judged. Revelation 20:13 and those who believe in Jesus and receive him by faith, will not face the second death which is the lake of fire. Their names are recorded in the lambs book of life.

The only way to avoid the lake of fire is to believe while in this fleshly tent that Jesus is the Son of God, he ransomed himself as a perfect sacrifice on behalf of all who believe in him by faith, he rose again victoriously and is seated on God's right-hand. Faith is believing without seeing any physical evidence. There is no faith involved If you find yourself in hades/hell and decide to change your mind because you have just realize that you were wrong....that heaven and hell is real, the judgment seat of God is real and the lake of fire is real....

Shalom!

-----------------------------------
lukethreesix,

If the doctrine of Universal Reconciliation is true, then you and others who believe in such things have nothing to worry about.
If however it is a lie, then who benefits? :huh:

That is correct, Satan benefits because he has caused people to believe in a lie... that they have opportunity of salvation after the flesh has expired when there isn't anything left but the impending judgment seat of God. Hebrews 9:27. Why would anyone want to take such a huge risk...

There are many doctrines out there and the ones that Satan benefits from cannot be trusted...they are indeed doctrines of demons IMHO

 

[lukethreesix]

Dodo, you said:
So, either
A ) the righteous have eternal life while the others have eternal punishment, or
B ) the righteous only have life for a limited period of time while the others have punishment for only a limited period of time.

Dodo, just because 2 nouns are described by the same adjective does not make them equal. for example: a big mouse and a big house. Both described as "big" but they are very different in size. Same goes for punishment and life. Life is of much greater value (see original post)

Angelina said:
Note the story of Lazarus the poor man who ate the scraps from his masters table. When they died, the rich man went to what seemed to be hell and Lazarus went to Abraham's bosom...the rich man did not appeal to Abraham because he was sorry...he appealed to him because he was suffering...."

The rich man cry's out "Father", and the father answers "Son".
Romans 12:20-21, "if your enemy is thristy, give him a drink."
Enemies get a drink, but children don't?
"By doing this you will pour coals of fire upon their head."
Their torment comes from the mercy given them.
"overcome evil by doing good."
Yes, God will overcome evil by doing good and showing mercy.

Can a father sit back and watch his children suffer and not lift a finger?
"What father among you if his child asks for a fish will give him a serpert?

I pray you all come to understanding of Gods great character of Loving-kindness and Compassion. His Judgment is correctional. That is His very Nature.

 

[Angelina]

Angelina said:
Note the story of Lazarus the poor man who ate the scraps from his masters table. When they died, the rich man went to what seemed to be hell and Lazarus went to Abraham's bosom...the rich man did not appeal to Abraham because he was sorry...he appealed to him because he was suffering...."

The rich man cry's out "Father", and the father answers "Son".
Romans 12:20-21, "if your enemy is thristy, give him a drink."
Enemies get a drink, but children don't?
"By doing this you will pour coals of fire upon their head."
Their torment comes from the mercy given them.
"overcome evil by doing good."
Yes, God will overcome evil by doing good and showing mercy.

Can a father sit back and watch his children suffer and not lift a finger?
"What father among you if his child asks for a fish will give him a serpert?

I pray you all come to understanding of Gods great character of Loving-kindness and Compassion. His Judgment is correctional. That is His very Nature.

... what did Abraham say when the rich man asked him to send Lazarus to his Father's house and testify to his five brother's least they also end up in that place of torment? :huh:

They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

The Lord always disciplines those he loves. If you are not disciplined then you are illegitimate and not his children. He discipline us as a Father would discipline a son, for our benefit. So that we are may share in his holiness and when trained, yield the peaceful fruit of righteousness .

Hebrews 12
3 Consider him who endured such hostility against himself from sinners, so that you may not grow weary or lose heart. 4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as children—

“My child, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
or lose heart when you are punished by him;
6 for the Lord disciplines those whom he loves,
and chastises every child whom he accepts.”

7 Endure trials for the sake of discipline. God is treating you as children; for what child is there whom a parent does not discipline? 8 If you do not have that discipline in which all children share, then you are illegitimate and not his children. 9 Moreover, we had human parents to discipline us, and we respected them. Should we not be even more willing to be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share his holiness. 11 Now, discipline always seems painful rather than pleasant at the time, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

Peace!

 

[lukethreesix]

Angelina. You are confusing me with this:
"The Lord always disciplines those he loves. If you are not disciplined then you are illegitimate and not his children. He discipline us as a Father would discipline a son, for our benefit. So that we are may share in his holiness and when trained, yield the peaceful fruit of righteousness ."

This is exactly what I been saying, but you've been arguing against me saying, most will be punished without end, without yielding anything from it, just torture for the sake of torture?

 

[Angelina]

Honey, the difference is in this life he disciplines us in this life. In our earthly tent as flesh and blood, not in the afterlife. It is just too late to be disciplined in the afterlife because there is no hope of returning to the body nor is there any ability to repent from hades/hell ...

 

[lukethreesix]

"If ONLY in this life there is hope in Christ, then we are one sorry bunch!" 1 Cor 15:19
It is only in this life where we build up treasures in heaven. It is only in this life where rewards are earned. But only HOPE in Christ? No way! God is restoring all things. Sin will not remain forever, if it did, and people ended up hating God eternally, then who has the victory in that, Satan or Christ?

 

[Angelina]

You have misinterpreted this scripture. This verse is speaking of those [possibly the Sadducees] who do not believe in the resurrection. His point was that if Christ is not raised from the dead, [which he has] then those who have fallen asleep in Christ, have perished and we are still in our sins. You have quoted Matthew 6 re; treasures in heaven. The writer is defining the difference between storing treasures on earth like money/wealth and storing treasures in heaven like giving and praying in secret rather than trying to be seen doing these acts as hypocrites tend to do....

and people ended up hating God eternally, then who has the victory in that, Satan or Christ?

Christ has the victory because those God haters were not of Christ in the first place but were planted by the enemy. Note the story of the tares.

Matthew 13:30
Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

Jesus then explains the parable of the tares
“The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. 40 So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Blessings!!!

 

[lukethreesix]

So Satan created the tares and Jesus didn't die for their sin?

 

[Angelina]

Jesus died for all mankind who believe in him by faith. John 3:16. These men do not believe in Jesus. They have been planted by Satan therefore Jesus calls them "son's of the evil one." Would Jesus speak of such things if it were not so? :huh:

 

[Dodo_David]

What I see being promoted in this thread is a philosophy which says the following:

"God must eventually let all people into Heaven, or otherwise God is not God."

I find that philosophy lacking Scriptural support.

 

[lukethreesix]

no dodo, God could be a torturer....but it wouldn't be in the character that He has revealed to us in scripture.

 

[logabe]

Angelina... I got a little sarcastic as Luke said and I apologize. My point is, ultimately God's
goodness will bring everyone to repentance (Rom. 2:4). The church has been taught that if
we don't repent in this Age of Grace, God will throw us away into the Lake of Fire and we
will never have a chance to experience the Love of God.
The church is taught this correctly I would add. Though consider that people have their entire lives to repent, so God may spread it out over time. Or may even have most of it towards the end of the person's life. But I believe if you die with un-repentance your doomed.

That's what I am talking about... someone's carnal mind taught you that (if you die
without repentance), "your doomed". What about the people that have never heard
the name of Jesus... you know the ones that lived in jungles for many centuries and
wouldn't allow other races to communicate with their people. You know, like the Arabs
and Jews do today to their people.

My point is... is it in God's nature to cast them into the Lake of Fire for eternity... is that
justice. What's the point? Being God knows all things, do you believe He said, I will
create billions of people to be cast into the Lake of Fire and they will be DOOMED. NO,
NO, NO, a thousand times NO. Come on Forrest... you don't believe that. The church
has to be missing something.

The church in general (not everybody in the church), teach that God will never restore His
creation, but in fact, most of His creation will be lost in eternity, because man or woman
didn't repent at a certain time in history. My point is, when God get's ready to restore all
things (Acts 3:21), mankind will not be able to reject the Love that God has for His creation.
The creation will be restored, but that isn't everything. Matthew 15:13

I'm glad you realize that God will restore the creation. What I'm not sure of is your definition
of what the creation consists of. In other words, did God create all people or just the ones
that repent in this Age? How much of the creation will He restore? Paul said it like this in Col.
1:20,

20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having
made peace through the blood of His cross ; through Him, I
say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.



That's what the church needs to start teaching the lost. As the church, we need to teach the
goodness of God, so we can bring this lost world to repentance, just as the Bible teaches. We
allow our carnal minds to teach us things that are the opposite of the character and nature
of God.

I am in agreement with showing the goodness of God to the Lost. However lets not tickle their ears with our own man made doctrines, but instead show them the love of God through our actions and scriptures.

I agree with you... let's start telling them about the plan of God through the scriptures such as, telling them
God will reconcile ALL of His Creation and not just some of it. Paul said, ALL OF IT.


God is forgiving, God is long-suffering, God is merciful, God is a peacemaker, God is just, God
is meek, God is righteous, and I could go on and on and on about the goodness of the Almighty.
God is love.

I agree...


We are ambassadors of Jesus Christ as Christians (2nd Cor. 5:20), we represent the God of the
universe and we need to represent Him in His right character and nature. That's why I like Luke's
post.
That is the same reason I do not like Universalism

Well... I'm not of the religion of Universalism, but I do believe God will restore all things. If that is
your definition of being a Universalist, I guess you can label me as one. I still love Universalist, but
I don't believe in some of their doctrine. I love you also, but I don't like some of your doctrine either.



What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[logabe]

Revelation 22:14-15 (ESV):

"Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."

Yep, the Lake of Fire is outside the gates. So, everyone in the Lake of Fire is also outside the gates.


Uh, no, that is not a literal translation. In another thread, HammerStone already gives an excellent explanation of what the Greek means.

Here is how Young's Literal Translation translates Matthew 25:46:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

So, either
A ) the righteous have eternal life while the others have eternal punishment, or
B ) the righteous only have life for a limited period of time while the others have punishment for only a limited period of time.

Besides, as I often say, no single English version is the standard for comparison, not even the EBR.

Dave... the problem we have with that verse is we are taught we receive eternal life.
You are right in your analogy on this scripture if you think it means eternal life, but it
doesn't. It means age abiding punishment and age abiding life. There is a difference
between eternal life and age abiding life. What's the difference?

Age abiding life has time in it for the purpose of an individual to change. Eternal life
has no time, it is timeless. There will be no need to change because everyone will be
under the subjection of Jesus Christ (1st Cor. 15:28), but in age abiding life God has
allotted time for the disobedient to change by being taught by the ones, which are
called overcomers, that learn in their lifetime how to submit to Jesus Christ. God makes
them Kings and Priests for the purpose of teaching the people in the next age (Isa 2:2-4).

The next age is the Tabernacle Age where the Overcomers will have immortality, yet
they will be teaching people that are still mortal. That's what Jesus in Matt. 25:46 is
speaking about. If a person overcomes the Babylonian system, he/she will inherit the
Kingdom of God (Matt. 25:35). In order to inherit the Kingdom of God, you must
become a mature Son of God and know and understand the character and nature of the
Almighty God.

Those that don't understand the character and nature of God will be rejected by God, and
will have to await the 2nd Resurrection. They will come to Jesus and tell him all of the
great things they have done, and Jesus will say depart from me you workers of iniquity.

You see... it not about what we do for God, but it is about what we allow God to do for us.
Are we preparing ourselves for the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ or will we have to go buy oil
and the door will be shut. Will we allow the Holy Ghost to change us now or will we be foolish
and allow our carnal minds to rob us of our inheritance (Matt.25:10-12).

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[lukethreesix]

Yes Logabe, you say the truth. Too few Christians understand this. We've been taught for so long that there is just earth now and heaven later. But the truth is, heaven and hell are just waiting rooms until the new heavens and new earth are to be inhabited by all.

 

[logabe]

Yes Logabe, you say the truth. Too few Christians understand this. We've been taught for so long that there is just earth now and heaven later. But the truth is, heaven and hell are just waiting rooms until the new heavens and new earth are to be inhabited by all.

Yes Luke, and we have so many things to enjoy in the Ages to come Eph. 2:7. That
scripture is so rich with revelation, but most Christians can't enjoy the understanding
of it, because most don't comprehend it's meaning.

Paul lived in the Grace Age, which is, the Age that we are living in now. He is telling
us that we have at least 2 more Ages to come, which refers to the "age abiding life",
that Jesus will give us by inheritance.

Jesus has plans for us in the Ages to come. What are the Plans? We must read 1st Cor.
1:9-10, to establish the foundation of His Plan. After we have accomplished the reading
of that scripture, let's now read Eph. 1:10 and Col. 1:20. Meditate for a while so you can
receive the Plan of God by the Spirit.

The revelation of these scriptures tells us that in our future God will show us exceeding
riches of his grace. I thought this was the grace age, but Paul says, we haven't even
scratched the surface yet when it comes to grace.

Eye has not seen grace yet. Why? God will be unfolding his plan for the rest of the world
to see in the next great Ages to come.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[lukethreesix]

I LOVE IT!!! I can't wait for others to know that GOD (because the one that has been presented to them falls short...way short).
What a God, what a plan!

 

[logabe]

I LOVE IT!!! I can't wait for others to know that GOD (because the one that has been presented to them falls short...way short).
What a God, what a plan!

Dave spoke about the Love of God in his last post, which is, the central part of
the nature and character of God. God is Love!!! Luke 6:35-36 talks about the love
of God,

35 "But love your enemies, and do good, and lend,
expecting nothing in return ; and your reward will
be great, and you will be sons of the Most High ; for
He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.
36 "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

The fact that we should love our enemies is because that is exactly what God does
with His enemies... He Loves them outrageously. The carnal mind cannot and will
not accept that type of Love, but it is exactly what God want's us to do. I'm sorry,
I can't love like God, but I can allow His Love to overwhelm my unbelief and cause
me to forgive.

It is impossible to love within yourself with that kind of love. God is Love. Yep, but
what about His judgment? God's judgment is Love. God's judgment is corrective and
He will correct His creation in the Ages to come. We can't even come to God unless
He DRAWS us John 12:32-33.

32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
33 But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He
was to die.

There it is... the Love of God was Jesus being lifted up on the cross, and now the drawing
begins. There is no doubt in my mind that Jesus can perform what He said he was going
to do, which is, drawing ALL MEN unto Himself. While we were yet in sin, Christ died for
us, now that's Love folks. He did that while I was yet His enemy, and that is His nature and
His character that passes all understanding. That type of Love is radical, it is called PERFECT
LOVE, and you and I can only get it from the Master. 1st Tim. 4:10 thus says,

10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have
fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all
men, especially of believers.

His Love will be established on the earth, because He has the ability to raise the dead, and by
His Love, He will correct the rest of creation through divine judgment. Isa. 26:9 says,

9 At night my soul longs for You, Indeed, my spirit within
me seeks You diligently ; For when the earth experiences
Your judgments The inhabitants of the world learn
righteousness.

God's judgment springs forth from His Love... incomprehensible Love... that teaches His enemies
the nature and character of the Almighty. Wow... that's hard to swallow... I must allow God to
bathe me in His Love... or it will be impossible for me to realize the magnitude of His Love.

Isa. 45:23-25 says,

23 "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from
My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to
Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
24 "They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness
and strength.' Men will come to Him, And all who were angry
at Him will be put to shame.
25 "In the LORD all the offspring of Israel Will be justified
and will glory."

God will bring this radical Love to the earth and He will do it by Himself... He swears to it... meaning
you and I don't even have to believe it because it is a done deal through the Blood of Jesus Christ. We
don't have anything to do with it. We all died in Adam and we will all be raised in Christ Rom. 5:18-19.

18 So then as through one transgression there resulted
condemnation to all men, even so through one act of
righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many
were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the
One the many will be made righteous.

The same many that were made sinners in Adam, which is, all of the creation, is the same many that will
be made righteous in the Last Adam. Why? Because of God's OUTRAGEOUS LOVE!!!

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe