Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus!

[neophyte]

Looks like your not saved, but only Jesus will tell you at your judgment.
Correct, yes the Church [Apostolic] came into the Fullness of the Faith at Pentecost.
As to your other question of; God recognizes all of His children, yes, God recognizes everyone, including all non-Christians i.e. Native Americans, Hindus, Muslums. Pygmies, Eskimos, Aborigines, etc. God made everybody and loves us all as His children, but He would like to see us "all" as members of that one true Church that He left for "all'' of us.
That church that Jesus left us was formed on His Apostles. That is the only church that Jesus ever left for "all ''
of us.
You wrote: "Now, truly there is one Christian body. It is the Catholics that do not view it that way, thereby a closed eucharist. I, a baptized Cristian, can not partake in the Catholic eucharist (RCC rules). If we Christians are not allowed to commune with Catholics, then we are viewed as different, and the true stance of the Roman faith is we are not saved either!"

So know are you also implying that JWs, Mormons are the same type of Christian as you are?
Tell me, since each Protestant must admit that his or her interpretation is fallible, how can any Protestant in good conscience call anything heresy or bind another Christian to a particular belief?

As far as the Eucharist goes, you as most Protestants regard the Eucharist symbolically , which contrary to universal Christian Tradition up to around 1517 , and the Bible [ Matt. 26:26-28 ] {John 6: 47-63 ] [ 1 Cor.10: 14-22; 11:23-30 ] which hold to the Real Presence [ another instance of the antipathy to matter, as I will explain next ]
Protestantism has removed the Eucharist from the center and focus of Christian worship services. Protestants tend to oppose matter and spirit, favoring the latter, and is somewhat Gnostic/ Docetic in this regard.Catholicism upholds the ' incarnational principle' wherein Jesus became flesh and thus raised flesh and matter to new spiritual heights.

Protestantantism greatly limits or disbelieves in sacramentalism , which is simply the extension of the incarnational principle and the belief that matter can convey grace. Some sects [ e.g. Baptists, many Pentecostals ] reject all sacraments.


To answer another of your questions. About that church that went to Africa of course it was Apostolic and that church that went to India of course it was Apostolic and in fact Thomas was the apostle that converted millions in India without one page of Scripture. Jesus commanded His Apostles in [ Matt. 28: 18-20 ] to preach everything He taught them to the world's populace.

 

[aspen]

-- What you say about Jews and Muslims is exacly correct.
It is not only illegal to evangelize in Muslim countries, but I was in Saudi Arabia when Bibles were confiscated while going through customs.

My thoughts were of groups that say they do "outreach" (I'm not speaking specifically about Catholics) and they meet with other religions and focus on the commonality of their faiths. That is the easy part and that is all they do.
But none of them ever want to sit down and discuss the 3rd rail of our faith's foundations - Jesus

I have spoken more than once individually with Muslims and in friendly terms discussed why Jesus may be considered only a prophet by them, but in actuality He is God.

The discussions never actually lead to conversions, but they are civil and they planted seeds.

The only time I have ever had tension about it when speaking with a Muslim is when they cited in the Koran where Jesus was born able to speak and he comforted and instructed Mary even as she held right after His birth. I asked how that could possibly be true.
He said "because the Koran says it." I mentioned that the Bible doesn't mention that and it was quoting eye witnesses so how could a book written 600 years after that possibly know that. Yeah, that didn't go over well.

Very interesting post, foreigner - thank you

First of all the church did not come into its fullness until after Pentecost. Second there is still only one true body of faith, and God recognizes all of His children, no matter what denomination the may be categorized by on a human level.

What about the church that went to Africa, are they not apostolic?

Next how do we know the Spirt of the Lord did not want separation during the reformation? Did God want us selling Heaven? Did God want us selling indulgences? What about the separation of the Eastern Orthodox? During that time the RCC stance was they, the Eastern churches, were not saved. That was probably the main reason Martian Luther started the reformation to begin with.

Now, truly there is one Christian body. It is the Catholics that do not view it that way, thereby a closed eucharist. I, a baptized Cristian, can not partake in the Catholic eucharist (RCC rules). If we Christians are not allowed to commune with Catholics, then we are viewed as different, and the true stance of the Roman faith is we are not saved either!

Go through what it takes to be saved as a Catholic. Part of it it partaking in the sacraments. If we, as baptized Christians are not allowed to partake in the sacraments, then how can we be saved from a Catholic view?

Wow - this is certainly not my fight.

blessings

 

[justaname]

Looks like your not saved, but only Jesus will tell you at your judgment.
Correct, yes the Church [Apostolic] came into the Fullness of the Faith at Pentecost.
As to your other question of; God recognizes all of His children, yes, God recognizes everyone, including all non-Christians i.e. Native Americans, Hindus, Muslums. Pygmies, Eskimos, Aborigines, etc. God made everybody and loves us all as His children, but He would like to see us "all" as members of that one true Church that He left for "all'' of us.
That church that Jesus left us was formed on His Apostles. That is the only church that Jesus ever left for "all ''
of us.
You wrote: "Now, truly there is one Christian body. It is the Catholics that do not view it that way, thereby a closed eucharist. I, a baptized Cristian, can not partake in the Catholic eucharist (RCC rules). If we Christians are not allowed to commune with Catholics, then we are viewed as different, and the true stance of the Roman faith is we are not saved either!"

So know are you also implying that JWs, Mormons are the same type of Christian as you are?
Tell me, since each Protestant must admit that his or her interpretation is fallible, how can any Protestant in good conscience call anything heresy or bind another Christian to a particular belief?

As far as the Eucharist goes, you as most Protestants regard the Eucharist symbolically , which contrary to universal Christian Tradition up to around 1517 , and the Bible [ Matt. 26:26-28 ] {John 6: 47-63 ] [ 1 Cor.10: 14-22; 11:23-30 ] which hold to the Real Presence [ another instance of the antipathy to matter, as I will explain next ]
Protestantism has removed the Eucharist from the center and focus of Christian worship services. Protestants tend to oppose matter and spirit, favoring the latter, and is somewhat Gnostic/ Docetic in this regard.Catholicism upholds the ' incarnational principle' wherein Jesus became flesh and thus raised flesh and matter to new spiritual heights.

Protestantantism greatly limits or disbelieves in sacramentalism , which is simply the extension of the incarnational principle and the belief that matter can convey grace. Some sects [ e.g. Baptists, many Pentecostals ] reject all sacraments.


To answer another of your questions. About that church that went to Africa of course it was Apostolic and that church that went to India of course it was Apostolic and in fact Thomas was the apostle that converted millions in India without one page of Scripture. Jesus commanded His Apostles in [ Matt. 28: 18-20 ] to preach everything He taught them to the world's populace.

First off, all people are not the children of God.

John 8:40-44


40 “But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.
41 “You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
44 “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
45 “But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.

As far as the eucharist is concerned, you have no idea what I believe, so the blanket statement that you made about Protestants shows your arrogance and ignorance.

Christians can call things heresy because of what scripture teaches.

J/W and Mormon teachings are heresy, these two faiths are cults. There are more cults also, some of the WOF movement, some of the charismatic movement, Christian Science, but I digress.

The only one infallible is Jesus Christ. Do you want proof of that? How about the current scandal in the Catholic faith? How about selling indulgences. How about the crusades? How about purchasing people from purgatory. How about the inquisition? I could go on, but only one instance of error is needed to show how infallible the Catholic religion is not. Oh wait only the Pope is infallible?

The vicious Rodrigo Borgia, who took the name Alexander VI (1492-1503), presided over more orgies than masses, wrote Edward Gibbon. A career highlight was the 1501 “Joust of the Whores,” when 50 dancers were invited to slowly strip around the pope’s table. Alexander and his family gleefully threw chestnuts on the floor, forcing the women to grovel around their feet like swine; they then offered prizes of fine clothes and jewelry for the man who could fornicate with the most women. Alexander’s other hobbies included watching horses copulate, which would make him “laugh fit to bust.” After his death — quite possibly poisoned by his pathological son, Cesar Borgia — this pope’s body was expelled from the basilica of Saint Peter as too evil to be buried in sacred soil.

Sergius III (904-11), known by his cardinals as "the slave of every vice," came to power after murdering his predecessor. He had a son with his teenage mistress — the prostitute Marozia, 30 years his junior — and their illegitimate son grew up to become the next pope. With top Vatican jobs auctioned off like baubles, the papacy entered its “dark century"

Now, I suppose you did answer my question honestly according to your belief, and for that I give you credit. You believe no other Christians are saved other than those in the Catholic faith. You also believe that Catholics are the only "true church."

Now this again this is what is written in the Bible:

Romans 10:8-13

But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

This is what was taught by the apostles! The "true church" still teaches this, and I belong to the same "true church", we are called Christians. Acts 11:26

This is taught by the apostle Paul:


But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

There is no distinction. No distinction between man and woman, free man and slave, Jew or Greek, Catholic or Protestant.

 

[neophyte]

justaname, read the book "Pope Fiction ".

Christ warn us that His Church would contain "Bad Members", members include bad popes, no different than those that Jesus chose, percentage wise the Church hasn't done any worse than what Jesus Himself did in personally picking His Church leaders.




Jesus appointed the apostles to be the first representatives of his Church:

And when it was day, he called his disciples, and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles; Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor. (Lk 6:13-16; see also Mt 10:1-4, Mk 3:13-19)​

The word apostle is translated from the Greek word apostolos, which simply means one who is sent as a messenger. Christ’s apostles were sent by him endowed with the authority to teach in his name: "And he appointed twelve, to be with him, and to be sent out to preach . . ." (Mk 3:14).
Let’s look at the reputations of some of the apostles.
A Thief and a Traitor

The most notorious of the apostles is, of course, Judas Iscariot—the one who betrayed Jesus.
"Then one of the twelve, who was called Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests and said, ‘What will you give me if I deliver him [Jesus] to you?’ And they paid him thirty pieces of silver. And from that moment he sought an opportunity to betray him" (Mt 26:14-16).
Of Judas, Jesus said, "It would have been better for that man if he had not been born" (Mt 26:24).
Judas seems like an obvious example of a scandalously sinful person who Jesus appointed to represent him. But some might argue that Judas was not corrupt when Jesus first appointed him an apostle, not until the Last Supper when "Satan entered into" him (cf. Lk 22:3, Jn 13:27)
Scripture indicates that Judas was a serious sinner before the Last Supper.
Jesus entrusted preaching to Judas, a serious sinner!
Finally, some might claim that Jesus didn’t know of Judas’ sinful character when he appointed him to be an apostle. John’s Gospel tells us otherwise:

[Jesus said,] "But there are some of you that do not believe." For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that should betray him . . . "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?" He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was to betray him. (Jn 6:64, 70-71)​

NOBODY SHOULD LEAVE PETER TO FOLLOW JUDAS

 

[justaname]

So suppose to ask the obvious question, when did Jesus Christ speak of popes ever?

Also if you are insinuating that Jesus did a bad or even OK job in picking His apostles, you again are mistaken. Jesus picked all of His apostles perfectly. All was done in accordance with how it was planned by the Father, spoken of by the prophets, and continued and acted by the apostles.

Second you can not have infallibility and bad even in the same category. You either have one or the other, and neither the Catholic faith nor papacy is infallible as I have shown you.

Finally you follow Peter if you wish, as for me and my family we will follow the LORD!
Those who broke away from the Roman faith did so because Catholics were teaching heresy.

 

[neophyte]

So suppose to ask the obvious question, when did Jesus Christ speak of popes ever?

Also if you are insinuating that Jesus did a bad or even OK job in picking His apostles, you again are mistaken. Jesus picked all of His apostles perfectly. All was done in accordance with how it was planned by the Father, spoken of by the prophets, and continued and acted by the apostles.

Second you can not have infallibility and bad even in the same category. You either have one or the other, and neither the Catholic faith nor papacy is infallible as I have shown you.

Finally you follow Peter if you wish, as for me and my family we will follow the LORD!
Those who broke away from the Roman faith did so because Catholics were teaching heresy.

Please understand the difference between impeccability and infallibility.
God also knows the plans for His Church , you certainly don't.
No matter when or how many times the clergy of the Catholic/Apostolic Church have been in errant of pastoral duties, sinned, made both intentional or non-intentional mistakes, not at any of these times has any Church doctinal teaching been affected, because the Holy Spirit has always guided and protected the Church, together with the promise of Jesus [ Matt.16: 18-19 ] You can not say the same for your man-made church along with its unbilical ordained minister.
You and your family perhaps truly really want to follow Jesus but your missing the boat by not receiving the Fullness of the Faith by not being members of His Church.

Jesus said to Simon Peter, " Feed by lambs... feed my sheep....feed my sheep'' [ John 21:15- 17 ]

To find Our Lord's true church in the world , you must find Peter or his lawful successor. " Where Peter is, there is the Church" [ St. Ambrose, written in the early years of Christ's Catholic/Apostolic Church ]

Our Lord and Savior said to Peter :" Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven" [ Matt. 16:19 ]

" That all may be one, even as thou, Father, in me and I in thee; that they also may be one in us " [ John 17:21 ]

Jesus told this only to His Catholic/Apostolic Church " He who hears you, hears me; and he who rejects you rejects me " [ Luke 10: 16 ]

 

[justaname]

So Catholic doctrine teaches that you could purchase people out of purgatory, and that is correct infallible doctrine? When did Jesus or any of His apostles ever teach something like that? How about never! To be sure it is called buying indulgences, something completely heretical. To back my point think of Jesus and the money changers.

Matthew 21:12-13


12And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves.
13 And He said to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer’; but you are making it a robbers’ den.”

I am a part of Jesus Christ's apostolic universal church (assembly), and I do not need any man's approval or recognition to prove it. I have the Holy Spirit indwelling me, I spread the gospel, I love God above all things, and I love my neighbor as myself. We are saved by grace through faith so that no man may boast, not works! I don't have to partake in the Catholic eucharist in order to be saved, I only need faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I don't have to have my name written in a Roman Catholic membership list, it must be written in the Lamb's book of Life.

Personally I think Martian Luther was an apostle, because he had the ambition to stand against heresy and a church he loved, thereby the Catholic faith is no longer apostolic. I believe the apostolic line followed Martian Luther, who was Catholic, yet was convinced by the Holy Spirit to stand against heresy.

 

[neophyte]

So Catholic doctrine teaches that you could purchase people out of purgatory, and that is correct infallible doctrine? When did Jesus or any of His apostles ever teach something like that? How about never! To be sure it is called buying indulgences, something completely heretical. To back my point think of Jesus and the money changers.

Matthew 21:12-13


12And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves.
13 And He said to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer’; but you are making it a robbers’ den.”

I am a part of Jesus Christ's apostolic universal church (assembly), and I do not need any man's approval or recognition to prove it. I have the Holy Spirit indwelling me, I spread the gospel, I love God above all things, and I love my neighbor as myself. We are saved by grace through faith so that no man may boast, not works! I don't have to partake in the Catholic eucharist in order to be saved, I only need faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I don't have to have my name written in a Roman Catholic membership list, it must be written in the Lamb's book of Life.

Personally I think Martian Luther was an apostle, because he had the ambition to stand against heresy and a church he loved, thereby the Catholic faith is no longer apostolic. I believe the apostolic line followed Martian Luther, who was Catholic, yet was convinced by the Holy Spirit to stand against heresy.

Justaname, why do you,rant and rave foolishly about something you know very little about, and that is: Christ's Catholic/Apostolic Church, you think you know what your writing about but you haven't a clue, for an example of the ignorance projected is your opinion that buying indulgences for souls in Purgatory understand first what it really all about , that is not a Church doctrine, care to show me your informational source on the Catholic Church, where do you find this type of rubbish ? Show me where it is a Church doctrine that we are forced to buy indulgences?
If your man-made church clergy can not trace it's religious lineage directly back to Jesus and His Apostles then your new modern age ,man-made so-called apostolic church is not from Jesus but unfortunately fron another false but powerful un-godly entity.

 

[justaname]

I never said you were forced to buy indulgences, that is something you added.

A BRIEF EXPLANATION OF INDULGENCES

Why were Catholics buying indulgences in the Middle ages? To understand that, it is necessary to understand what an indulgence is.

According to Catholic teachings, when you sin, you get two punishments. You get:

1. An eternal punishment (hell):

To be free of the eternal punishment, one must receive the Sacrament of Confession and be forgiven of his sin(s).

2. A temporal punishment on earth while you are alive, (or in purgatory after death):

To be free of one's temporal punishment, a person must receive an indulgence. An indulgence is a special "blessing" that the sinner receives when he performs a special act such as doing a good deed or saying certain prayers. Upon the completion of the conditions of the indulgence, the person's temporal punishment is removed.

So, why were Catholics buying indulgences in the Middle ages? They believed this would remove the temporal punishment attached to their sins. By paying for the indulgences, they would no longer have to perform special acts of good deeds or say certain prayers and still, they would go to Heaven without having to go to Purgatory.​

Catholic decisions on the approved doctrine.​

By the bull Indulgentiarum doctrina of 1 January 1967, Pope Paul VI, responding to suggestions made at the Second Vatican Council, substantially revised the practical application of the traditional doctrine.[sup][14][/sup]​

He made it clear that the Church's aim was not merely to help the faithful make due satisfaction for their sins, but chiefly to bring them to greater fervour of charity. For this purpose he decreed that partial indulgences, previously granted as the equivalent of a certain number of days, months, "quarantines"[sup][15][/sup] (Lent-like forty-day periods) or years of canonical penance, simply supplement, and to the same degree, the remission that those performing the indulgenced action already gain by the charity and contrition with which they do it.[sup][5][/sup]
The abolition of the classification by years and days made it clearer than before that repentance and faith are required not only for remission of eternal punishment for mortal sin but also for remission of temporal punishment for sin. In Indulgentiarum doctrina Pope Paul VI wrote: "Indulgences cannot be gained without a sincere conversion of outlook and unity with God".[sup][16][/sup]
In the same bull, Pope Paul ordered that the official list of indulgenced prayers and good works, which had been called theRaccolta, be revised "with a view to attaching indulgences only to the most important prayers and works of piety, charity and penance".[sup][17][/sup] This removed from the list of indulgenced prayers and good works, now called the Enchiridion Indulgentiarum,[sup][18][/sup] many prayers for which various religious institutes, confraternities and similar groups had succeeded in the course of centuries in obtaining grants of indulgences, but which could not be classified as among "the most important". Religious institutes and the like, to which grants of plenary indulgences, for instance for visiting a particular church or shrine, had been previously made, were given a year from the date of promulgation of Indulgentiarum doctrina to have them confirmed, and any that were not confirmed (mostly in a more limited way than before)[sup][19][/sup] within two years became null and void.[sup][background=initial][[/background]20[background=initial]][/background][/sup]

And I can trace religious lineage back to Jesus and His apostles right through Martian Luther.

You see the issue here is you refuse to see truth, because you are blinded by the doctrine of men, and ultimately the god of this world. You say some hateful rhetoric about an ungodly entity, yet I have never attacked you personally, nor your beliefs. I simply stated what I believe and the facts of what the Roman faith teaches. Truth be told, indulgences are not even the reason this thread was started. What I question is what the lay RC believed about the salvation of his fellow Protestant, and from what you exclaim it is pretty clear. Now this is not some kind of case study, and truly you are only one of millions of RC faithful, and Aspen has already proclaimed what he believed.

For some reason, I got cut off from the computer before I could finish off the rest of my response to you. Pope Eugene IV addressed this letter to the Catholics who left the Church. So, again, it is taken out of context. As the Bible says, a person who comes to the knowledge of the Truth (which is Christ and His Church) and then decides to leave that Truth for somethng that is wrong may lose their salvation. The Church NEVER teaches that Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, or any other religion other than Christianity will lead to salvation.

Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

It is always better to read the entire letter instead of parts of it. Below is a weblink showing the entire letter in its entirety.

http://catholicism.o...ate-domino.html




The Catholic Church sees in both the Jews and Muslims that together we worship the same God the Father, but the Jews and the Muslims are ignorant of God's true nature. They do not know that God is actually three persons in one God.

Do we reach out to Muslims? Yes, we try to. Unfortunately, in the Muslim countries, it is illegal to evangelize and not very good for Muslim converts. Muslim converts are in danger of being killed once it is known that they have converted to Christianity.

I am sorry Selene, but the end of the letter reaffirms what was said in what I posted.

It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

This is a teaching of works salvation, not faith based salvation of grace.

 

[neophyte]

Justaname, you're wrong again, stop reading from anti-Catholic sources if you truly want the truth about Catholicism.-

God can choose to save someone who is unable in conscience to believe God exists but lives as best he can according to the knowledge he does have. Gaudium et Spes states about atheism:

Undeniably, those who willfully shut out God from their hearts and try to dodge religious questions are not following the dictates of their consciences, and hence are not free of blame; yet believers themselves frequently bear some responsibility for this situation . . . To the extent that they [believers] neglect their own training in the faith, or teach erroneous doctrine, or are deficient in their religious, moral, or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than reveal the authentic face of God and religion. (19)​

This implies that the culpability for atheism is not necessarily entirely the individual’s. To the extent that belief in God has been made impossible for him by others, there may be some mitigation of his culpability for unbelief. Ultimately we must trust that even he is not beyond the reach of God’s mercy if he strives to live morally (cf. Lumen Gentium 16). The second great commandment is love of neighbor (Matt. 22:39) and Christ said of those who serve others, even if they do not explicitly do it for Christ’s sake:

Then the righteous will answer him, "Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?" And the King will answer them, "Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me" (Matt. 25:37-40).​

answered by a staff member from Catholic Answers

 

[justaname]

Neophyte,

You sure are doing some back pedaling, and you are the one calling me wrong? Let's see first off you said "it looks like you are not saved." What you defend is that your church is the only apostolic faith. Then you say I come from a "man-made so-called apostolic church is not from Jesus but unfortunately fron another false but powerful un-godly entity."

Now you have a staff member tell me "God can choose to save someone who is unable in conscience to believe God exists but lives as best he can according to the knowledge he does have. Gaudium et Spes states about atheism:"

We are not speaking about atheism, we are speaking about Protestants. Protestants are Christians. My claim is Roman Catholics believe they are the only Christians who are saved, per what was said in the past by past popes, what is upheld by Vatican II, and what was exclaimed by you. Truly it seems you do not know what you believe rather you need someone else to tell you what you believe, which is OK if that is what you like.

Personally I see Roman Catholics as part of the body of Christ. Unfortunately most Roman Catholic lay do not understand all the dogma the establishment puts them under, and thereby truly do not understand what they believe.

 

[neophyte]

The affirmation "outside the Church there is no salvation" is explained in the Catechism of the Catholic Church as follows:

How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his Body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.
Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men. (CCC 846-848)​

Specifically concerning non-Catholic Christians, the Catechism notes:

The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter. Those who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. With the Orthodox churches, this communion is so profound that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist. (CCC 838)​

 

[Episkopos]

Belonging to a church does not make one a Christian any more than living in a stable makes one a horse.

 

[neophyte]

Belonging to a church does not make one a Christian any more than living in a stable makes one a horse.

Are you forgetting that the Church [ Christ's One True Apostolic Church ] came before the New Testament, not the NT before the Church. The Church contained divinely -inspired members who wroie the books of the NT , just as divinely- inspired writers had written the Old Testament, and the Church is guided by the Holy Sirit to guard and interpret the entire Bible, both Old and New Testament.
Such an official interpreter is absolutely necessary if we are to understand the Bible properly. [ We all know what the Constitution says, but we still need a Supreme Court to interpret what it means.] Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit to guide the apostles and their successors [ the nucleus of His Church] " into all truth" [ John 16: 12-13 ], to always protect His Church from improper doctrinal teaching [ Matt, 18: 19 ]

 

[Selene]

Sorry if it seemed divisive, but I wanted it to be a bit provocative as it would generate a rapid response. But to the subject at hand and the Vatican II official stance of the RCC:

Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those to whom He has given new birth into one body, and whom He has quickened to newness of life - that unity which the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church proclaim. For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help towards salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one body of Christ into which all those must be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God…

How can one be certain that the RCC has that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow?

The thing is.....it would be best to look into the source first. If your source is anti-Catholic, then it's a one sided source that prints only half the truth to discredit the true teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. As I pointed out, Pope Boniface letter was used by some group to discredit the true teachings of the Church and left out many things. They left out the part that the letter was addressed to the King of France and was written at a time when there were no Protestants, for example. And this was the example that YOU used. The best source is to look at the Catechism, which are the true teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.

If you have a question about Roman Catholicism, you can ASK your question rather than putting your two cents opinion into it since you obviously don't know a thing about it. You may even contact me through PM.

-- What you say about Jews and Muslims is exacly correct.
It is not only illegal to evangelize in Muslim countries, but I was in Saudi Arabia when Bibles were confiscated while going through customs.

My thoughts were of groups that say they do "outreach" (I'm not speaking specifically about Catholics) and they meet with other religions and focus on the commonality of their faiths. That is the easy part and that is all they do.
But none of them ever want to sit down and discuss the 3rd rail of our faith's foundations - Jesus

I have spoken more than once individually with Muslims and in friendly terms discussed why Jesus may be considered only a prophet by them, but in actuality He is God.

The discussions never actually lead to conversions, but they are civil and they planted seeds.

The only time I have ever had tension about it when speaking with a Muslim is when they cited in the Koran where Jesus was born able to speak and he comforted and instructed Mary even as she held right after His birth. I asked how that could possibly be true.
He said "because the Koran says it." I mentioned that the Bible doesn't mention that and it was quoting eye witnesses so how could a book written 600 years after that possibly know that. Yeah, that didn't go over well.

I agree. Vatican II established 16 documents and one of those documents was on dealing with non-Chrisitans. Christians are to open a dialouge with non-Christians (including the Jews and Muslims), hoping to plant seeds that would lead them to knowing Jesus Christ. As you already know, in Muslim countries such as Saudi Arabia, the Bible is not easily made available and are often confisciated through Customs. It the Muslims truely feel that Islam is the true religion, why are they afraid to allow the selling of Bibles? Nevertheless, we do what we can to spread the Gospel even if it's to plant small seeds that may grow in time.

 

[Kidron]

The Roman Catholic Church is a Master-Cult.
It equates water with salvation while denying that faith in Christ alone is all that is necessary for justification/salvation.
They actually teach as doctrine that a priest can magically change wine and bread into the literal body of Christ that you eat.
Catholics offer prayer for the dead that you can buy..
They believe there is a place you go if you need some time after death to become "purified" enough by burning so that you finally go to heaven.
Its leader is a religious dictator who actually believes that he is the "voice of God" on the earth.
The Pope considers "Mary" to be a virgin, to be a co-author of salvation, and to be the Queen of Heaven.
The catholic bible removed the commandment that tells you "not to make unto thee any graven image"

on and on.

Priests cant marry., which is called a "doctrine of devils" in the New Testament.....1st Timothy 4:1,3
The church has various dead saints that are suppose to help you with your travels for example and you are to pray to them and trust THEM for help.
A catholic confesses to a priest so that they can die in a "state of grace" and not go to hell.
The priest, according to the type sin you confess, will give you some duty, some thing to do, that is your restitution for your bad deeds.

all this is just man made slop.........its religious nonsense, that has nothing to do with Christ, nothing to do with the bible, and nothing to do with truth.

tell me....do you really believe that Mary flew off the planet...........ascended to heaven, just like Jesus did it?
Well, the Pope believes in this fairy tell, along with his followers..


my advice to any catholic reader is to run from this religious theater of the absurd cult and never look back.



K

 

[Selene]

The Roman Catholic Church is a Master-Cult.
It equates water with salvation while denying that faith in Christ alone is all that is necessary for justification/salvation.
They actually teach as doctrine that a priest can magically change wine and bread into the literal body of Christ that you eat.
Catholics offer prayer for the dead that you can buy..
They believe there is a place you go if you need some time after death to become "purified" enough by burning so that you finally go to heaven.
Its leader is a religious dictator who actually believes that he is the "voice of God" on the earth.
The Pope considers "Mary" to be a virgin, to be a co-author of salvation, and to be the Queen of Heaven.
The catholic bible removed the commandment that tells you "not to make unto thee any graven image"

on and on.

Priests cant marry., which is called a "doctrine of devils" in the New Testament.....1st Timothy 4:1,3
The church has various dead saints that are suppose to help you with your travels for example and you are to pray to them and trust THEM for help.
A catholic confesses to a priest so that they can die in a "state of grace" and not go to hell.
The priest, according to the type sin you confess, will give you some duty, some thing to do, that is your restitution for your bad deeds.

all this is just man made slop.........its religious nonsense, that has nothing to do with Christ, nothing to do with the bible, and nothing to do with truth.

tell me....do you really believe that Mary flew off the planet...........ascended to heaven, just like Jesus did it?
Well, the Pope believes in this fairy tell, along with his followers..


my advice to any catholic reader is to run from this religious theater of the absurd cult and never look back.



K

It actually helps if you had read the entire thread first before posting. Afterall, how difficult can it be to read ONLY two pages??

 

[neophyte]

Kidron, you need help and prayers.