"Extravagant Lifestyles" of Mega-Pastores Explored

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tom55

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Marksman said: " I don't agree with paid pastors because they didn't exist in the NT Church, but if you insist on ignoring scripture....."

Just because the NT or scripture didn't say they were paid doesn't mean they weren't paid. (*) I believe back when the NT was written there weren't any stand alone Christian churches. People just met in each other's homes for church. Probably small gatherings of people. Now days you have Churches that have members in the thousands with multiple employee's. Using your idea that we "shouldn't pay someone to be a Christian" means you probably wouldn't have a very good choice of people to choose from as pastor. I guess only people who are independently wealthy should apply? Everyone else stay home no matter how good of a pastor you might be? Think of it this way. We don't pay them to be a Christian. They are already a Christian and we are paying them to manage the church (business) and bring us closer to our almighty God.

(*)I defer to DODO DAVE on the history of our early church. From reading the stuff he has written he is more of a scholar in that area than I am.
 

Dodo_David

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tom55 said:
Marksman said: " I don't agree with paid pastors because they didn't exist in the NT Church, but if you insist on ignoring scripture....."

Just because the NT or scripture didn't say they were paid doesn't mean they weren't paid. (*) I believe back when the NT was written there weren't any stand alone Christian churches. People just met in each other's homes for church. Probably small gatherings of people. Now days you have Churches that have members in the thousands with multiple employee's. Using your idea that we "shouldn't pay someone to be a Christian" means you probably wouldn't have a very good choice of people to choose from as pastor. I guess only people who are independently wealthy should apply? Everyone else stay home no matter how good of a pastor you might be? Think of it this way. We don't pay them to be a Christian. They are already a Christian and we are paying them to manage the church (business) and bring us closer to our almighty God.

(*)I defer to DODO DAVE on the history of our early church. From reading the stuff he has written he is more of a scholar in that area than I am.
Tom, I am no more a scholar than anyone else. I just read a lot, and I cite my sources for all to check out.

Quite frankly, I used to think that there was no biblical basis for giving a pastor a salary.

Then one day, I saw in the New Testament something that I had missed. It is 1 Corinthians 9:13-14, which states, "Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel."

Upon reading that passage, I knew that I had been mistaken.
 

FHII

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Dodo_David said:
Tom, I am no more a scholar than anyone else. I just read a lot, and I cite my sources for all to check out.

Quite frankly, I used to think that there was no biblical basis for giving a pastor a salary.

Then one day, I saw in the New Testament something that I had missed. It is 1 Corinthians 9:13-14, which states, "Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel."

Upon reading that passage, I knew that I had been mistaken.
That's not the only NT verse that says it, either.
 

marksman

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tom55 said:
We don't pay them to be a Christian. They are already a Christian and we are paying them to manage the church (business) and bring us closer to our almighty God.
Chapter and verse please?

It is a fallacy invented by religion that we need someone to bring us closer to God.

I am a son of God, not a grandson. Therefore my relationship with God needs no mediator in between me and him. I can be as close as I want to be and I can be as far away as I want to be.

The greatest and most exciting time of my relationship with God, my Father was when I took two years off the church. I never went near one. Devoid of all that religion, I discovered a God I knew nothing about because the God I discovered was not the God presented by the church.

This is how God intended it to be that is why he tore the veil in the temple.
Dodo_David said:
Upon reading that passage, I knew that I had been mistaken.
I was taught at Bible College that you NEVER build a doctrine on one verse of scripture.
 

Asyncritus

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1 Cor 9.14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
15 ¶ But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.
Here's the greatest apostle of them all saying he didn't take any money from the members.

Why do you think that is? I'll tell you.

It's because he knew of the gross abuses that would follow, from those who would copy his example if that was the example he set.

But what examples do we actually have in scripture?

Jesus. Lived off who knows what. There was a collection bag which Judas robbed.

Paul. Worked with his hands. Tentmaker,

Eli and his sons. Gross.

Caiaphas and Co. Unbelievable excesses.

I wouldn't lay too much store on the example set by the priests either:

Jer 26:7 So the priests and the prophets and all the people heard Jeremiah speaking these words in the house of the LORD.

Jer 26:8 Now it came to pass, when Jeremiah had made an end of speaking all that the LORD had commanded him to speak unto all the people, that the priests and the prophets and all the people took him, saying, Thou shalt surely die.

Jer 26:11 Then spake the priests and the prophets unto the princes and to all the people, saying, This man is worthy to die; for he hath prophesied against this city, as ye have heard with your ears.
Jer 26:16 Then said the princes and all the people unto the priests and to the prophets; This man is not worthy to die: for he hath spoken to us in the name of the LORD our God.

It was the priests that said, Kill him.

So what do we see in the NT? No mansions, no Learjets, no gold, no monstrously expensive ceilings and paintings, and monumental collections of land and gold bullion:

The colossal wealth of the Vatican includes enormous investments with the Rothschild’s in Britain, France, and the USA, and with giant oil and weapons corporations like Shell and General Electric. The Vatican solid gold bullion worth billions, is stored with the Rothschild controlled Bank of England and the US Federal Reserve Bank.
http://servantofthelight.com/content/view/71/101/

It's only too easy to see all these other churches with fantastic buildings, and priests with the ridiculous headgear and 'vestments' which cost fortunes, springing from this business of having paid ministries.

220px-Jan_Babjak_SJ.jpg


All that looks like gold to me. You happy with that? Is that what Paul meant, do you think? Go look at wiki, here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestment,

and if you're not horrified, and can justify all that on the basis of these verses in 1 Cor 9, then your understanding has got to be somewhat peculiar....

Just BTW, did you know that 1 Cor 11 expressly forbids men from wearing head coverings in the services they held? So what are these people doing?

I can't get it uploaded, so have a look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitre

The author of the second photo makes the point:

Note the similarity in theme of the symbol on the front of John Paul's mitre, here a sun wheel, and that of Cybele's mitre above, symbolic of the pagan sun god. (See
star.gif
LA VERITA - THE TRUTH)


And these white robes with long purple scarves(?). Where is there any justification for any such things in the NT? I'll tell you. Nowhere. So why do they do it?

And cassocks. And surplices. And most grossly of all, crowns!!!!!

Try here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mitre-benaki.jpg

and here: http://biblelight.net/John23tiara.jpg

How much does that thing cost? Several hundred thousand pounds, I would guess.

Doesn't it make you ill? It does me. But does this qualify as 'extravagant'?

I would say so.

And let us never forget, it was their 'theologians' that got them here.

Absolutely marvellous, I say.

This is how God intended it to be that is why he tore the veil in the temple.
B)

Good man.
 

FHII

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marksman said:
I was taught at Bible College that you NEVER build a doctrine on one verse of scripture.
Yea, but you take it to the extreme Markedman. You don't use any verses to build your doctrine and then you chide those who do and compare them to Fred Phelps....
 

Suhar

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Pelaides said:
Paul and barnabass were beggars,

''Its easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a richman to get into heaven"
Paul was making tents for a living.
[SIZE=medium]Acts 18:1-3[/SIZE]
 

Asyncritus

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''Its easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a richman to get into heaven"
This is a misquotation. Correctly, it is 'the kingdom of God' as per Matthew, Mark and Luke.

Heaven and the kingdom of God are not the same thing, or different words would not have been used.

But the point that strikes me is: if a rich man will have a hard time making it, then what about a rich church?

Do you think they won't? Because they accumulated wealth?

Luke 16.13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. [that is, money and wealth].
 

FHII

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Paul the tentmaker.... You folks ain't got one verse that says Paul got around on tentmaking. Yea, he did it. So what? It might have just been beer money! Show me where Paul ever said he survived day by day making tents.... Ya can't do it! But I can show you where he relied on giving to him for his teaching as a means of sustaining him.

Paul the tent maker.... Please...

There are numbskulls who like to chant, "don't build a doctrine on one verse!" I hate those fools, but here it applies. People think Paul made tents for a living and preached on the side. Not so. They believe it on one verse... (See Markedman how your screwed up doctrine come back to bite you in the rear end?)

Yea, Paul made tents but his travels and preaching were paid for by the offerings.

Paul the tent maker.... Please....
 

Asyncritus

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Acts 18. 3 And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.

1 Cor.9.14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
15 ¶ But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.
So he was a tentmaker, and didn't live off the members of the church.

Seems obvious to me. Isn't it obvious to you?
 

marksman

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Asyncritus said:
So he was a tentmaker, and didn't live off the members of the church.

Seems obvious to me. Isn't it obvious to you?
Yes it it obvious that if he refused to live off the gospel, it definitely wasn't beer money.
FHII said:
Paul the tentmaker.... You folks ain't got one verse that says Paul got around on tentmaking. Yea, he did it. So what? It might have just been beer money! Show me where Paul ever said he survived day by day making tents.... Ya can't do it! But I can show you where he relied on giving to him for his teaching as a means of sustaining him.

There are numbskulls who like to chant, "don't build a doctrine on one verse!" I hate those fools, but here it applies. People think Paul made tents for a living and preached on the side. Not so. They believe it on one verse... (See Markedman how your screwed up doctrine come back to bite you in the rear end?)
He had to do something as he said he would not live off the gospel. As he was a tentmaker by trade, logic would tell you that is what he did.

Baker Encyclopedia of the Bible says that the single biblical reference (Acts 18:3) is to Claudius and Priscilla of Corinth who worked at this trade. Paul joined them because he was trained in the same craft. He regularly earned his living in this trade during his missionary journeys (2 Cor 11:7-10; 1 Thess 2:9; 2 Thess 3:8).

The New International Dictionary of the Bible says that in NT times it was the custom to teach every Jewish boy a trade. Jesus was a carpenter and Paul was a tentmaker. Paul practiced his trade in company with Aquila at Corinth (Acts 18:1-3).

I won't respond to your dismissive and offensive remark that followed as I have no wish to fuel your bullying and aggression.
 

FHII

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Asyncritus said:
So he was a tentmaker, and didn't live off the members of the church.

Seems obvious to me. Isn't it obvious to you?
Nope... Not when he lived off the giving for the teaching as he reported. You ain't got one scripture that says Paul paid his bills by tent making, but I have scripture that said he accepted offerings and lived off of them. You just have a verse that says he made tents as a trade. So what? Paul wasn't a tent maker..... He was an apostle. He was also a lawyer, a pharisee and yea... sometime down the line, he was also a tent maker. But he got around on the backs of giving for the teaching.


I'd give scripture for that.... But some of you don't think to highly of what the scripture say.... Do you? The more scripture I give, the more you'd accuse me of being a Fred Phelps. So why bother giving scripture to folks who don't believe what the Bible says?
 

marksman

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FHII said:
You ain't got one scripture that says Paul paid his bills by tent making, but I have scripture that said he accepted offerings and lived off of them. You just have a verse that says he made tents as a trade. So what? Paul wasn't a tent maker..... He was an apostle. He was also a lawyer, a pharisee and yea... sometime down the line, he was also a tent maker. But he got around on the backs of giving for the teaching.

I'd give scripture for that.... But some of you don't think to highly of what the scripture say.... Do you? The more scripture I give, the more you'd accuse me of being a Fred Phelps. So why bother giving scripture to folks who don't believe what the Bible says?
This is what I call muddled thinking and clutching at straws. First you say that Paul WASN'T a tentmaker and then you say he WAS a tentmaker and sometime down the line WAS a tentmaker.

Now, if he wasn't a tentmaker, how could he be a tentmaker? Forgive me if I consider you unable to mount a case for consideration.

I may have missed it but I don't remember anyone accusing you of being Fred Phelps.

Despite your delusions of superiority, we do believe what the scripture says, but we are not sure that you do and I am sure you won't give verses not for the reason you stated but you don't have any to give. All you have is some religious concoction which you have learnt from those who have an aversion to the truth.
 

tom55

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Marksman,

You made me laugh when you said "Chapter and verse please?" in response to me saying we pay pastors to "manage the church (business)...". Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough. We pay pastors to manage the business. Some of those businesses employ many people. In my opinion, and obviously the billions of people who attend church, it is ok to pay them to do this. In my opinion and many other peoples opinion the NT does justify them being paid.

It is nice to know that YOU don't need someone to bring you closer to God. But some people do and they like the interaction they get by going to church. Those people are willing to pay for that interaction with their contributions (tithes) to their church (business). There is nothing wrong with it.

I think it is funny that you say you were taught that "....you NEVER build a doctrine on one verse of scripture" and then use Mark 15:38 (one verse) to justify your belief that a person doesn't need to go to church. Or am I misunderstanding you?
 

FHII

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marksman said:
This is what I call muddled thinking and clutching at straws. First you say that Paul WASN'T a tentmaker and then you say he WAS a tentmaker and sometime down the line WAS a tentmaker.

Now, if he wasn't a tentmaker, how could he be a tentmaker? Forgive me if I consider you unable to mount a case for consideration.

I may have missed it but I don't remember anyone accusing you of being Fred Phelps.

Despite your delusions of superiority, we do believe what the scripture says, but we are not sure that you do and I am sure you won't give verses not for the reason you stated but you don't have any to give. All you have is some religious concoction which you have learnt from those who have an aversion to the truth.
Well, first... like tom55 brought up, you don't believe on building a doctrine on one verse, but that's all you have (one verse) on building the doctrine that Paul was a tentmaker. It's mentioned one time...

And you clearly have missed my point. Paul was an Apostle. That was what he said his profession was. In times past he was also a pharisee and a lawyer. He noted he was a pharisee and noted that he was a member of the San Hebron (sp?) court. He also along the way learned how to be a tent maker. How is it that you call him a tent maker when he clearly in almost (if not all) every letter tells us his profession is "Apostle"?

Let me explain it to you in simple terms. I am a teacher in the public school system. I have (while being a teacher) also worked as a short order cook, a carpenter, a salesman and a personal fitness trainer. Those were all part time jobs When someone asks me what my profession is, I say I work for the public school system even if I work as a cook, carpenter or personal trainer.

Paul was an Apostle and that was his job. He did some tent making on the side, but we have no proof that was his main source of income. I called it "beer money" and I was half joking. Why? I'm an average everyday joe.... I speak the lingo that folks understand. No, I don't really mean he spent it on beer! I meant to say that it was extra cash in his pocket. Not his main source of income.

Actually, I've studied it and his tent making did further the gospel (in theory) in other ways, but that's a deep and side subject.... I don't think we should get into it. My point is that if you think Paul funded his life's needs and travel with tent making, you are sadly mistaken when I have plenty of verses that say it was from the giving of his "sheep".

Which brings me to my next point....

Markedman, I have seen what you do when people give you verses to support their point. Dodo gave you a verse, and you dismissed it because it was only one verse (he could've given many more). I gave you several verses and your reply was along the lines of, "Well, Fred Phelps and cultists can quote verses too!"

So what good will it do to give you any scripture? I'd love to, actually! I have them all lined up and ready to go! I got the verses! But your history has proven that you will thumb your nose at them and not give a damn. If I give you a single verse, you'll write it off as just one verse. If I give you several, you'll simply write them all off and claim they're wrong because cultists and Fred Phelps can do that too. Not because they are actually wrong... But only because of others can do.

Now if I give you scripture and you actually will discuss it, that's another thing. But no..... You haven't shown that ability or willingness.

But alas.... I will give you one verse to consider: Matthew chapter seven, verse six. That'll explain why I don't give you verses to support what I say.
 

marksman

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tom55 said:
Marksman,

You made me laugh when you said "Chapter and verse please?" in response to me saying we pay pastors to "manage the church (business)...". Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough. We pay pastors to manage the business. Some of those businesses employ many people. In my opinion, and obviously the billions of people who attend church, it is ok to pay them to do this. In my opinion and many other peoples opinion the NT does justify them being paid.

Chapter and verse please.

It is nice to know that YOU don't need someone to bring you closer to God. But some people do and they like the interaction they get by going to church. Those people are willing to pay for that interaction with their contributions (tithes) to their church (business). There is nothing wrong with it.

Chapter and verse please.

I think it is funny that you say you were taught that "....you NEVER build a doctrine on one verse of scripture" and then use Mark 15:38 (one verse) to justify your belief that a person doesn't need to go to church. Or am I misunderstanding you?

Yes you are misunderstanding me.
FHII said:
But alas.... I will give you one verse to consider: Matthew chapter seven, verse six. That'll explain why I don't give you verses to support what I say.
If you think I am a dog, you are definitely barking up the wrong tree, woof, woof. But thanks for the compliment anyway. I must be the only dog that can use a computer.
 

FHII

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marksman said:
If you think I am a dog, you are definitely barking up the wrong tree, woof, woof. But thanks for the compliment anyway. I must be the only dog that can use a computer.
Your welcome.
 

Asyncritus

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Come on you guys. Mt 7.6 was never intended to be used like this.

And speaking of dogs,

Ga 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

A word to the wise...
 

tom55

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Marksman,

Since I am misunderstanding you I can't give you a chapter or a verse.....because I don't understand what you are saying :(